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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 2:19:06 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Not the event I am speaking of...
Perhaps you can provide a link?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/16/2008 5:40:33 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I swear, the Catholic Church has to be made up of lawyers! (At least the contingent of them here seem to think they are.) The fact that I have gone from saying 'trillions' to 'billions' DOES NOT take away even one iota of my argument! Not one little bit!
Yet you act as if it makes some sort of a difference... IT DOESN'T! The Pope and his cronies are very POOR stewards of the resources God has entrusted them with... There is NO WAY this can be denied! So they are very poor stewards of billions (maybe it's 'only' millions) rather than being very poor stewards of trillions... Now... where was your point going? Did you actually have one? I sure did! I made it too, I believe!
It has a huge difference in your credibility. The fact is that you made a claim that you could not back up. How is this an admirable behavior for a christian to engage in? You claimed that the Vatican has trillions and you could not come up with one single shred of evidence to support your claim. Why would a christian make a claim that they in no way could support? That is a form of false witness, in my opinion.
You claim that the Vatican is a poor steward of their resources. However, given that you cannot even get your facts straight, why should we trust you in your evaluation of the Vatican's stewardship when you have made it abundantly clear that you are willing to play fast and loose with the facts?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/17/2008 1:01:20 AM
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Papa-san
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Looks like we have another white elephant in the room... Almost all of us can see it, but for some reason, you are not seeing it... When I used the word 'trillions', almost every reader here would see it for what it was: A descriptive term for a large sum of money... like using slang. My credibility really doesn't matter anyways, because the point I am making is the fact that the Vatican is a poor steward of 'whatever' sum they have been entrusted with.
If I don't have any credibility with you, then any of my 'Protestant' brothers and sisters can cut and paste my comments. I don't think they will need to though, because there is no possible way to deny the truth of my statements here:
Your church has 'significant' resources. (Better? I hope so. And by the way, not even the best 'legalese' is going to stand up before the Throne!) Your church also has members who do not have food to eat because they cannot afford it. As long as your church is holding on to those assets, whatever their value may be, while some of it's own members are going hungry, it is a clear example of poor stewardship of those resources. There is no possible argument against this from ANY perspective! As long as your church is retaining financial resources (which does include things that could be sold for money) and even one of it's members is homeless, again it is a clear example of poor stewardship. Again, no denial of this is possible.
In contrast, not a single member of my church goes hungry for lack of money, and I know that for a FACT! None of them are homeless either, nor will they become so as long as they continue to be members of my church. As a result, I may not get to drive a brand new car ever again. (I wouldn't anyways as that is another example of poor stewardship); I may not be able to take a vacation every year; I may not be able to buy my children $200.00 sneakers, etc. However, I have more comfort than ANY temporal possession could ever offer because I know that I am doing what God has commanded me to: I am providing everything I can for every member of His body that I am able to as need arises. Your church cannot say the same, and you cannot deny it... Nobody can, because what I am saying is TRUE.
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/17/2008 1:08:38 AM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/17/2008 3:28:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
The "stuff" of the Catholic Church belongs to me - the common parishioner - and it belongs to every other parishioner who has ever donated money to the Church. Let's see if you can get your hands on some of the Vatican's 15 billion.
The Vatican threatened to bring Italy to its financial knees rather than pay any tax on their rather substantial wealth. Ah, can't you just feel their love and compassion?
Do you have a citation for either the first or second claim? YES
quote:
Although, I must admit, if the Vatican does have $15 billion, it is a far cry from the trillions that Papa claimed. Hey, a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon we're talking real money.
According to the Times article the Vatican owns about 1.6 billion in stockholdings which they threatened to dump if the Italian government tried to tax their dividends. That would have thrown Italy, already in difficulties, into such an economic crisis it would have brought the government down. The government has decided to "rethink" the proposal....I bet.
None of this takes into account the wealth of individual diocesans across the world particularly in the US. What's striking, though, according to the Times of London, is the Vatican has added to their list of "sins" the following: "“the excessive accumulation of wealth by a few”. That one is way too easy.....
quote:
Of course, there is only one thing that is consistent about the claims people make about the Vatican's alleged wealth: it is very consistent that nobody who makes such a claim is ever interested in the truth. I have yet to see anyone back up their claims.
Actually, what is consistent, not to mention untrue, is the charge that no one backs up their claims.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/17/2008 10:00:42 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Looks like we have another white elephant in the room... Almost all of us can see it, but for some reason, you are not seeing it... When I used the word 'trillions', almost every reader here would see it for what it was: A descriptive term for a large sum of money... like using slang. My credibility really doesn't matter anyways, because the point I am making is the fact that the Vatican is a poor steward of 'whatever' sum they have been entrusted with.
It is your opinion that the Vatican is a poor steward of its resources. Like I said, why should I give credence to your opinion when: 1) you have no clue how much the Vatican has in the first place and 2) you have no idea what the Vatican does with the money? If you had some information about the Vatican finances, then I should listen to you. But you admit, you know nothing about Vatican finances. Do you always have opinions on things you know nothing about?
quote:
If I don't have any credibility with you, then any of my 'Protestant' brothers and sisters can cut and paste my comments. I don't think they will need to though, because there is no possible way to deny the truth of my statements here:
At least Kelman provided a citation. You have not provided one single piece of evidence over and above your opinion.
quote:
Your church has 'significant' resources. (Better? I hope so. And by the way, not even the best 'legalese' is going to stand up before the Throne!)
I think we all will have to account for the truthfulness of our comments before the throne. And a commitment to truth requires us to investigate things before we make claims.
quote:
Your church also has members who do not have food to eat because they cannot afford it. As long as your church is holding on to those assets, whatever their value may be, while some of it's own members are going hungry, it is a clear example of poor stewardship of those resources. There is no possible argument against this from ANY perspective! As long as your church is retaining financial resources (which does include things that could be sold for money) and even one of it's members is homeless, again it is a clear example of poor stewardship. Again, no denial of this is possible.
How about some scripture here. Can you provide some scripture that says that Christians cannot have money in the bank, cannot have artworks, nor anything unnecessary while there are poor people in the world?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/17/2008 10:59:12 AM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
link=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html]YES[/link]
Thank you, Kelman. While we may disagree on the interpretation of things, I do appreciate your willingness to provide a citation to back up your claims. The article you cite provides allegations but no substantial evidence. It claims that the Vatican owns $1.6 billion in Italian stocks. However, an article four years later puts the value at $200 million. That is quite a discrepancy!
Here is the article:
Later article
As to the tax dispute, it appears that there was a legitamite dispute as to whether the Vatican owed the tax under the terms of the Lateran Treaty. Of course, churches get into tax disputes all the time with their respective governments and there are actually Christian lawyers who will defend the churches.
quote:
Hey, a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon we're talking real money.
The one thing that we can agree upon is that Papa was off by an order of magnitude. These types of mistakes should be avoided whenever possible, because they do nothing to build up the body of Christ.
Now the real question is: What is the Vatican doing with its resources that it shouldn't? We agree that the Vatican Library is a good thing, so it is reasonable to use the Vatican's resources to support the library. The Vatican also has universities. Universities are good things as well, so some resources should be used to support universities. As to the art, do you really want to suggest that Christians should abandone the art world and leave art to our modern day artists? As one who teaches in a secular university, I find that really scary.
< Message edited by martyfran -- 5/17/2008 11:05:56 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/17/2008 12:49:13 PM
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Papa-san
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Selling one-of-a-kind artworks does not mean, by ANY stretch of the imagination, that you are 'abandoning' art to the secular world. I don't even know how you would have been able to get the thought process to lead there...
I'm not suggesting that the Vatican collect everything they have and just pitch it into the street. I'm suggesting that they place those works on the auction block and sell them. That way, those pieces will likely be purchased by some major museum foundations to place the works on display in safe places. In actuality, doing so would allow the rest of the world to see and appreciate those works, which would actually increase the Christian interest in the art world. As it is now, very few people are allowed to see these items.
The proceeds from placing these works in public or private collections by selling them could then be used to help the members of the RCC who are in need of help. I believe that the scriptures do indicate that this is the right thing to do. Christ is approached by a rich young man who wants to know how to become a member of the Kingdom of God. Christ tells him to sell all that he has and distribute it to the poor, so that he can truly follow Christ. That is the process of putting down the nets that keep us from following Him. It's strange how the church that claims to be the original and true church isn't willing to follow Christ's instruction in the matter...
I'll try to take your advice about avoiding using exaggerations in my posts. I guess it won't really build up the body of Christ. However, it's also pretty obvious that it doesn't build the body of Christ to have the secular world watch as some of your members starve to death while your supposedly Christlike leader lives high on the hog... Christ would have sacrificed his own meal to feed someone who was without... Somewhere in the two thousand (or so) years your church has been in existence, Christ was kicked out to make room for the pope...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/18/2008 3:52:05 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
It claims that the Vatican owns $1.6 billion in Italian stocks. However, an article four years later puts the value at $200 million. That is quite a discrepancy! I don't think it's so much a discrepancy as an "update" because as your article said it was only until recently the Vatican either controlled or owned a substantial part of at least a dozen important enterprises. So, apparently, the Vatican has sold a lot of its shares of stock.
quote:
As to the tax dispute, it appears that there was a legitamite dispute as to whether the Vatican owed the tax under the terms of the Lateran Treaty. Of course, churches get into tax disputes all the time with their respective governments and there are actually Christian lawyers who will defend the churches. The problem I had was that it wasn't handled in a legal manner. The Vatican's threat seemed...well, unchristian. Throwing Italy into economic chaos would have severely hurt millions of people.
quote:
The one thing that we can agree upon is that Papa was off by an order of magnitude. These types of mistakes should be avoided whenever possible, because they do nothing to build up the body of Christ. Sure, billions? trillions?...when in doubt "gazillions" would've about covered it.
quote:
Now the real question is: What is the Vatican doing with its resources that it shouldn't? While obviously there is nothing intrinsically wrong with weath, there is something somewhat "unseemly" about a Christian organization having such vast financial resources. And, I'm fully aware RC does many charitable works, still, it resembles more a financial empire than a Christian church.
As for the art collection, is Papa's suggestion of selling to a private or public institution such a bad idea? Afterall, Scripture is clear that it is the duty of the church to care for the poor of that church.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/19/2008 2:19:03 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
And it was actions like these that offended many traditional RC who saw the church's landscape being dramatically transformed. Don't be so sure.
I think that what I get from all of this is an ecumenical sign of respect in the spirit of further dialog. Obviously the Pope's goal is to bring these people to Christ. At the risk of stirring up much controversy, a copy of the Quran is scraps of paper with ink on them, just like our Bibles are. So the gesture was symbolic of an openness to further dialog.
The official stance of the Church, I believe, is that discipline of a faith in something other than self can be a first-step down a path that leads one to a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And the Catholic Church does recognize monotheism from polytheism, and applauds monotheism as a first step to "getting it".
So while I see the drama that some whip up surrounding the Pope and whatever action he may choose to take, I don't feel a need to participate in the drama, as I am comfortable that the Pope is sending the right message to Islam - that message being we applaud the self-control and discipline that you practice, because we believe that by participating in that, you will come to know the sacrifice and humility endured by Jesus in saving your soul, and will come to join us in full communion in response to that revelation.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/19/2008 5:24:25 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
I think that what I get from all of this is an ecumenical sign of respect in the spirit of further dialog. Obviously the Pope's goal is to bring these people to Christ. At the risk of stirring up much controversy, a copy of the Quran is scraps of paper with ink on them, just like our Bibles are. So the gesture was symbolic of an openness to further dialog. Precisely, one "holy" book is as good as another....this has been the long held practical teaching of RC.
There is no "risk of stirring up much controversy" because this distain of Scripture is apparent in every RC thread in this forum. This is simply just more of the same.
There does remain another serious problem, though, because without the Word of God one can never be brought to Christ. To give such honor, respect and legitimacy to the teaching that Christ is nothing but a prophet - not even equal to Mohammed - is ultimately to steer people away from the salvation that can only be found in Christ and His Word.
No, we don't find the Apostles or the early apostolic church ever teaching such anti-scriptural doctrines. We don't find the Apostles bowing down to the gods of any people - let alone to their illegitimate prophets. We see here the deadly effect of "tradition" upon the souls of men.
There is an old Arab saying which is quite applicable to this whole business of the pope bowing down to Islam.
"IF SUCH ARE THE PRIESTS, GOD BLESS THE CONGREGATION."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/19/2008 7:12:28 PM
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gatolover
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kelman,
quote:
Precisely, one "holy" book is as good as another....this has been the long held practical teaching of RC.
Have you ever been to Mass, Kelman? If so, you might have noticed the reverence and respect demonstrated by the clergy and faithful in a variety of ways when it comes to Scripture. However, it really is a book, as Doghouse pointed out.
quote:
There is no "risk of stirring up much controversy" because this distain of Scripture is apparent in every RC thread in this forum. This is simply just more of the same.
I haven't noticed "this 'distain' of Scripture" in all my long years as a Catholic Christian. I have, however, noticed some non-Catholics equating our Lord with a book. For example:
quote:
There does remain another serious problem, though, because without the Word of God one can never be brought to Christ.
Umm...Christ IS the "Word of God." See John 1:1, which, ironically[?], was part of yesterday's Gospel reading at Mass. It doesn't appear that Catholic Christians are confused about Who the "Word of God" is. We know He is the Word of God made Flesh and we worship Him accordingly, not a book.
BTW, A+ for dramatic content, kelman.
Peace out,
gatolover
< Message edited by gatolover -- 5/19/2008 7:19:33 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 3:12:17 AM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
As for the art collection, is Papa's suggestion of selling to a private or public institution such a bad idea? Afterall, Scripture is clear that it is the duty of the church to care for the poor of that church.
The Vatican’s art collection is not something that the Church tends to put a monetary value on, like the tendency of the secular world.
They are the Bible of the illiterate.
The written word, the Bible, was and still is the preserve of the educated class. Large chunks of people had no formal education then and could not read when the paintings were created. They were instructed in the faith orally and the artists in those days helped these people remember the Gospel truths they were taught with these paintings and sculptures. And many were put in Churches for this very purpose.
Those who continuously insist that we read the Bible only forget that there are those who can’t read. Even today, there are many not only in the Catholic Church around the world, especially in Africa, Asia and Latin America who are still illiterate.
These statues and art pieces in the treasury of the Vatican contain Truths expressed in the Church then and are still relevant today as a record and a reference point about what was being taught uninterrupted throughout the ages.
To suggest that they be sold is to rid ourselves with part of the Gospel in the Church’s treasury, which is in part for the benefit of those who can’t read.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 3:42:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
quote:
Precisely, one "holy" book is as good as another....this has been the long held practical teaching of RC.
Have you ever been to Mass, Kelman? If so, you might have noticed the reverence and respect demonstrated by the clergy and faithful in a variety of ways when it comes to Scripture. Sure the priest will kiss the Bible. But, what does that mean, afterall, since the same is done by the leader of your church to another "holy" book?
quote:
However, it really is a book, as Doghouse pointed out. That's my point RC considers it just a "book". Why not?...afterall, there are gazillions of books in this world. Precisely why RC has no qualms treating the Koran with equal reverance.
quote:
quote:
There is no "risk of stirring up much controversy" because this distain of Scripture is apparent in every RC thread in this forum. This is simply just more of the same. I haven't noticed "this 'distain' of Scripture" in all my long years as a Catholic Christian. Frankly, I wouldn't expect you to notice the disdain with which Scripture is often treated in some posts.
quote:
I have, however, noticed some non-Catholics equating our Lord with a book. For example: Since Christ equates Himself to the Book, since He is the Author of the Book, since every word in the Book is from the mouth of God, who else should God's Holy Word be equated to?
quote:
quote:
There does remain another serious problem, though, because without the Word of God one can never be brought to Christ.
Umm...Christ IS the "Word of God." See John 1:1, which, ironically[?], was part of yesterday's Gospel reading at Mass. It doesn't appear that Catholic Christians are confused about Who the "Word of God" is. We know He is the Word of God made Flesh and we worship Him accordingly, not a book. Hmm, guess it's easier to believe it's just a fluke that Scripture is called the "Word". And, that God commands: "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Well, whether you choose to believe or not that's how closely Jesus is associated with the Bible.
quote:
BTW, A+ for dramatic content, kelman. What drama?....just the truth. It is your pope who kisses the Koran with as much ease as he kisses the Bible - no difference - and that's the truth.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 7:06:50 AM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Umm...Christ IS the "Word of God." There may be a thread for this, so at the risk of being off topic here...
That's the difference for some - believing that in 27 Books, you can really capture the true fullness of Jesus, without also having the support of the traditions and first hand witness and account that is captured in the magisterium.
Could you or I be completely defined in 27 books? Or would it also require interviews with our family, friends, associates and those who witnesses our walk here on earth? There would always be someone who had a different facet or perspective about us, if one were to try to compile and capture that definition of us by interviewing witnesses.
Jesus is the Word of God. Some of His followers attempted to capture the high-points of who He is for the purposes of instruction and bringing people to Him by writing about Him, under the watchful eye and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not defined by Scriptures, but He is described within them, so that we may know and recognize Him if we get to see Him.
Hopefully, people reading that sentence get the distinction.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 11:38:19 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 998
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
As for the art collection, is Papa's suggestion of selling to a private or public institution such a bad idea? Afterall, Scripture is clear that it is the duty of the church to care for the poor of that church.
The Vatican’s art collection is not something that the Church tends to put a monetary value on, like the tendency of the secular world.
They are the Bible of the illiterate.
The written word, the Bible, was and still is the preserve of the educated class. Large chunks of people had no formal education then and could not read when the paintings were created. They were instructed in the faith orally and the artists in those days helped these people remember the Gospel truths they were taught with these paintings and sculptures. And many were put in Churches for this very purpose.
Those who continuously insist that we read the Bible only forget that there are those who can’t read. Even today, there are many not only in the Catholic Church around the world, especially in Africa, Asia and Latin America who are still illiterate.
These statues and art pieces in the treasury of the Vatican contain Truths expressed in the Church then and are still relevant today as a record and a reference point about what was being taught uninterrupted throughout the ages.
To suggest that they be sold is to rid ourselves with part of the Gospel in the Church’s treasury, which is in part for the benefit of those who can’t read.
Nice try, but there hasn't been an illiterate person allowed entrance into wherever it is the Vatican stores/displays these artistic 'treasures' for hundreds of years, at least... They are not for the illiterate masses. These things are kept for the elite, and they are treasured by the Vatican far more than those illiterate humans are...
Take some pictures, sell the stuff, and feed the masses...
Get real!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 11:51:14 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11666
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quote:
Nice try, but there hasn't been an illiterate person allowed entrance into wherever it is the Vatican stores/displays these artistic 'treasures' for hundreds of years, at least
Proof please.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 12:53:49 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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I just noticed this thread and thought I would comment on it. First off just look at history, look at the corruption of the Pope/Catholic church. If the Pope is so special then why has more than half the things he has stood for for centuries is contradictory to the bible, condolences......The whole Peter reference is just absurd. You notice the Lord says MY CHURCH, not your church. God does call people to lead churches but not to be a mediator to God. There are absolutly not scriptural references that say we need to go through anyone to get to the Father. The bible says I am the way the truth and life no comes to the Father but by ME, not the pope + ME.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 2:55:22 PM
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texastweet
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Vatican "wealth":
According to Vatican correspondent John L. Allen Jr. in his book All the Pope's Men, one reason that the Vatican doesn't sell off such treasures is that the Vatican doesn't believe that the treasures are the Vatican's to sell. They are considered the patrimony of mankind, entrusted to the Vatican for safekeeping, and cannot be sold or borrowed against. Indeed, the Vatican values them at one euro each for purposes of internal bookkeeping and spends a great deal of money to preserve the treasures for future generations.
If such treasures were sold and the money given to the poor, that money would soon be gone and mankind would be culturally impoverished by the loss of such artifacts into private hands. Besides, it is not offensive to religious sensibilities for a Church to maintain such beautiful treasures for the glory of God. If the Temple in Jerusalem could be richly ordained in order to glorify God and to inspire human worship, the universal Church of God can be richly ordained for the same purposes. (Source: LINK
Christ also said the poor will always be with us and I don't think giving everything away to feed the poor for a relatively short period of time is the right approach. Should all of us sell everything as well? Then we can become "the poor" as well and become a burden to someone else who is using their gifts.
Thats the real story...
AboundinginHisGrace,
You can search this thread and find your points already addressed. For instance you absurd Peter reference would also refer to numerous Protestant scholars who agree that Peter is the rock referred to in that passage.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 4:31:07 PM
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Papa-san
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The Temple served a purpose... It was the center of worship for the Hebrews. The Spirit of God would inhabit the Holy of Holies, behind the veil. The temple was ordered to be grand and beautiful, according to God's instructions... because it served a specific purpose: It was His earthly place of residence.
The instant that Jesus Christ died, that veil was rent. The Temple no longer served a purpose, so it's grand beauty no longer mattered. The Spirit of God has had His residence inside of all believers since. THOSE are the temples that are supposed to have a grand appearance... A starving human doesn't really qualify as grand.
If we are to be like the universal Church of God that Christ established, we should be doing as the apostles did after Pentecost. We should:
"44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need. 46 And day by day, continuing stedfastly with one accord..."
This is the True Church. It has nothing to do with the temple or the Vatican, or any of the grandiose buildings. The True Church of Jesus Christ is inside all of the followers of Christ. Their bodies are the temple now.
Jesus allowed the anointing because He knew He would be returning to Heaven soon. Now the poor are with us as they were, and we are to share all of God's resources to the betterment of all the different temples He now resides in.
Orthodoxy blew it long ago. The gospel has been lost behind all the glorious "trinkets". We now have a massive Catholic stronghold in the Vatican, thousands of churches all around the world, and all kinds of glorious robes and vestments for the pope to wear. Nothing could be farther than what Christ taught... I'm pretty sure it turns His stomach when He hears a shivering, starving child cry in the shadow of one of these beautiful buildings... If you understand what the scriptures say, you are probably moderately appalled by it all. I know I do, and am...
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 5:36:06 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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Jesus is the Word of God. Some of His followers attempted to capture the high-points of who He is for the purposes of instruction and bringing people to Him by writing about Him, under the watchful eye and guidance of the Holy Spirit. There's your problem, the Bible is just something a few guys "attempted" to throw together. And, because of that unfortunate view, you can only see a few "high points" instead of the totality of all God has objectively revealed about Himself. Instead, you simply bring your subjective view to God - your own personal egocentric opinions. Why?...I'm guessing because the Book God wrote has significantly less value than your ecclesiatic traditions.
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Could you or I be completely defined in 27 books? Along the same lines, the refusal to recognize all of God's revelation to man. The OT is viewed with even less respect and authority than the NT.
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Hopefully, people reading that sentence get the distinction. The real hope for mankind is to understand that the Bible is the Word of God.....written by God; and, the only means of salvation.
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 5:42:15 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: authorcrat
The Vatican’s art collection is not something that the Church tends to put a monetary value on, like the tendency of the secular world.
They are the Bible of the illiterate. Hopefully that is not true; but, if it is, the "illiterate" have been treated to a myriad of deceptions.
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The written word, the Bible, was and still is the preserve of the educated class. While illiteracy is no doubt higher than it should be, it has been decreasing every year. Still, God in His mercy is delivering His message through missionaries, AM, FM, short-wave radio and satellite transmissions.
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They were instructed in the faith orally and the artists in those days helped these people remember the Gospel truths they were taught with these paintings and sculptures. And many were put in Churches for this very purpose. What you speak of is not "truth" in any sense of that word. It is simply the imaginings of artists, their perspectives along with an extravagant amount of "creative license".
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Those who continuously insist that we read the Bible only forget that there are those who can’t read. Even today, there are many not only in the Catholic Church around the world, especially in Africa, Asia and Latin America who are still illiterate. And you somehow think this justifies paintings, for example, of Mary being assumed into heaven? What does this have to do with biblical truth?...nothing. If people can get to a cathedral or local church to see copies of these works of art, which in many cases do not teach any biblical truth, they can certainly be taught the truth from the Bible.
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These statues and art pieces in the treasury of the Vatican contain Truths expressed in the Church then and are still relevant today as a record and a reference point about what was being taught uninterrupted throughout the ages.
Rather, in fact, they teach only the imaginations of artists - little truth. Not to mention the clear scriptural admonition against making representations of God.
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To suggest that they be sold is to rid ourselves with part of the Gospel in the Church’s treasury, which is in part for the benefit of those who can’t read. Oh, that's just plain silly. We are not instructed to find the Gospel in an artist's work, unless, of course, the Artist is God Himself. He has given us His Canvass, it's just a shame so many have turn only their critical eye toward it and found it wanting.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/20/2008 5:48:53 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
Status: offline
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If such treasures were sold and the money given to the poor, that money would soon be gone and mankind would be culturally impoverished by the loss of such artifacts into private hands. Just excuses to hold onto immeasurable wealth. If in private hands, the world would not be "culturally impoverished". And, in the meantime RC would actually be fulfilling a biblical mandate.
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Besides, it is not offensive to religious sensibilities for a Church to maintain such beautiful treasures for the glory of God. Since many of the "beautiful treasures" do not contain truth, they are not to the glory of God. To the glory of the artist and the Vatican?...yes; but, to God's glory?...no.
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