RE: Why do we need a Pope?

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superdave -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 9:16:01 AM)
Could not have said it better myself. Lets all be our own Pope! I am sure that I know more about Biblical doctrine than anyone else and I am most certainly always correct. I don't need any mere man to explain things to me! I'm guided by the spirit, like every other person on here with a different opinion, yet also guided by the spirit of course. [;)] And if I disagree too much I guess I'll just have to go out and start my own little church that is really and truly Bible based.

Lurker -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 9:27:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bishop35 Wow andym, you sure cleared that up for me! I've gone to church my whole life, I was saved by the blood of Jesus who died for me and I accept, studied his word and teachings, was babtized, but in all that, nobody ever told me about this. So a guy surrounded in so many cult symbols, that I am supose to confess my sins to, and he'll talk to God for me, wasnt importantant enough for anyone to tell me about him and his role as my spiritual leader? Something dont add up here. I trust my Lord to reveal the things I need to know about him and what he wants from me. He didnt bother to fill me in on this guy either. But you condinsend on me? How funny Were is goodme at? He was actually explaining things. I'm no GoodMe, but I'll do my best to explain the role of a Pope in a bit more detail. :) I'm still new to the Catholic faith myself however, so if I make a mistake in my explanation it's through innocent ignorance, not for any other reason... That said, the title "Pope" is actually a turn on the word "Papa" which came about simply because it's an affectionate word for "father." The Pope's full title is, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God. He is considered the successor to the Apostle Peter, who was appointed by Our Beloved Lord and Saviour when He told Peter, "You are Peter (Rock) and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:18-19) Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, a symbol of great authority. Our Blessed Lord Jesus knew that He would be returning to His Father and out of His everlasting love for us, made sure that we would have a leader here on Earth to help guide us on our path to Him. The apostle Peter became the first Pope, although the title "pope" didn't actually come about till later. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, meaning that he is in charge of guiding the Church at Rome and seeing that they are taught the faith properly and are taken care of. He's called the Vicar of Christ because he is in the position appointed by Christ to represent Him until His glorious return. He is NOT equal to Christ, but does act in Christ's name to shepherd the Church since the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were given to the office the Pope represents. I can't explain the titles "Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, and Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province" very well, hopefully GoodMe or someone else more knowledgable will help out. :) He's the sovereign ruler of Vatican City, an entirely seperate country located inside Italy, that explains the title "Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City" and finally, he's a servant to the entire Church. That fits with "Servant of the Servants of God." Hope this helps!

meep meep -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 9:43:42 AM)
Hey Tim! Yeah, everythinf IS blue - and I can't find my picture! I gotta get used to this... Anyway, good exposition on Clement and the role of bishop pre 150 - that magic arbitrary number set up to prove I dunno what... How are the chicks doing? Has Peter Paraclete declared himself Pope? He should since he now has a "flock" - or is that only for sheep? In Christ, Meep meep

sadiebelle -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 10:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TimL Hi Sadie, Is it really blue in here or is it just me? Anyway, I have no idea where to start here in this blue world. Maybe you can just start us off if you want. May God Continue to Bless You Sadie, Tim Hey Tim! Yeah, it's really blue in here. I like it. I tried to start things off from a new perspective: establishing Peter in Rome since there is controversy that he was even there... ...I think Lurker tried to pick up the ball after that, but then Lurker had to go make dinner. wink

Lurker -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 10:54:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle quote: ORIGINAL: TimL Hi Sadie, Is it really blue in here or is it just me? Anyway, I have no idea where to start here in this blue world. Maybe you can just start us off if you want. May God Continue to Bless You Sadie, Tim Hey Tim! Yeah, it's really blue in here. I like it. I tried to start things off from a new perspective: establishing Peter in Rome since there is controversy that he was even there... ...I think Lurker tried to pick up the ball after that, but then Lurker had to go make dinner. wink It was a good dinner too! Chicken with rice. :D And I haven't forgotten my promise to you Sadie. :) I'll try to get to it today on my lunch break. :)

meep meep -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 10:56:11 AM)
We know from scripture that Jesus selected and trained Apostles - who were then imbued with special and unique authority which would allow them to spread the Gospel and build a church. Thus, Apostolic AUTHORITY. Scripture tells us the source of that authority. Matthew 28:19,20; Luke 24:45-48; Mark 16:15, and John 20:21-23. This was all unique Apostolic authority, not the authority that we each have as believers. Read each of the Gospels and see that before Jesus was asumed into Heaven he gave this special authority to those He trained and approved to carry forth His teaching and ministry. While, initially the view was that Jesus wuld return immediately, the emergent Church soon realized it needed to organize and set up so as to preserve the Good news and administer the daily activities of the saints. To do this a structure of leadership was established, but one thing is very cleaqr, that the Apostolicity of leadership was to be carried forward and to continue in the Church - this is the role and purpose of the Bishop - to preserve, carry foward and spread the message of Christ. If we look to writings of the period in the 70's and 80's we see that the Bishops had positions of leadership and authority. It was NOT a democracy, or a congregational election as to who should lead. These "elders" or bishops were to receive a "double honor" because they labored in teachng and preaching. Read 1 Timothy as an example. THE mission of the Bishop was to correctly interpret the true Gospel, and defending the message from all attacks (remember there were many false teachings which abounded at that time - see Galatians). As the Church structure deve loped it was clear that the Bishop led the others and had the "apostolic" authority in the growing church. Clement, ( Bishop of Rome) as aptly explained by TimL above wrote as late as 96 A.D. that the Apostles "APPOINTED the first converts" and then through testing of the Spirit APPOINTED them to be bishops and deacons for those who were to be added to the flock later. In the Didache (100 A.D.) the roles of Apostles (who had died) was explained as that of Bishops. The Didache EXPRESSLY states that the Bishops have the same role as that of the Apostles and early Church leaders. By the early 100's (some say a little later) every Church had a Bishop as it's leader, followed by a priest and then a deacon. The Bishop never replaced Jesus but he was seen as the "chief shepard" representing Christ on earth in a singular and unique manner. Ignatius of Antioch (110 A.D.) wrote of the role and purpose of the Bishop as well - placing him in a position of leadership and authority on par - or continuation of - that of the Apostles. Bishops were appointed and succeeded the Apostles - they studied, and they were approved in turn - first by the Apostles themselves, and then by those approved by the Apostles ,and then those approved those who succeeded them and on and on - until today. Many choose to disregard the many evidences of the unique role and special authority given to Peter. EVEN if scripture is disregarded, the bulk of HISTORICAL evidence confirms that many began to see the Bishop of Rome - and that office as a visual representative of the continued presence of Christ on earth and in his Church. As time progressed the different Churches began to look to the Bishop of Rome to carry on the role of leadership for all the Church, sought it's counsel, deferred to it's leadership. This rather general overview can be readily researched scripturqally and historically. One good initial historical source (not Catholic or Protestant) is Henry Chadwick's - The Early Church. In Christ, Meep meep

SaintJVMan -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 10:59:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle I heard that they found Peter's body buried in Jeruselem and not Rome. In fact, I read an article that made a case for the fact that no evidence is founf that Peter EVER went to Rome. Paul maybe; Peter...no. Anyone know of this article? I�m not sure what article your mentioning, but can you think of even one Church Father who said that Peter died anywhere but Rome? I know I can think of many who said that he did die there.

SaintJVMan -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 11:01:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME I guess we have been folded into a "new" community and need to start this discussion all over again from the "old" thread. Should be fun. Hi Lurker, Sadie, StJVMan et. al. What do you guys think of the new "skin" here? Hello, I�m not sure what I think of it yet�

SaintJVMan -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 11:04:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: emjayzee I have not heard this "you ARE your Pope" thing before. That's kind of funny. If you are saying that I read the Bible, study, pray, and apply it to my life, well, ok, I guess you can call me that. He was speaking of your self appointed prerogative to interpret the whole of scripture and Christian doctrine.

meep meep -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 11:19:46 AM)
Just because someone preaches or speaks in English doesn't mean the Truth is being preached. Look at Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Halley Bop cult, the Moonies and so many others we read and hear about in the news. JPII was an old guy. I can tell you that you could go to any one of his World Youth Days and see how hundreds of THOUSANDS of young people related to him. He listened, he preached (in several languages - including English) the message of Christ - the need to go forward and live that message - to love one's fellow man, to find God and follow him. Yeah, he was an old guy - but the youth (and others) related to the message of Christ which he preached and lived. Maybe that's not important to some - but to a desparate, hurting, lost and evil world he did stand at the THRESHOLD of Hope - and that - many found- resonated within them as they sought to seek the eternal and abundant life and it's meaning as given by Christ. Maybe YOU don't need a Pope. That's perfectly fine. But there's nothing that says that the World doesn't NEED to Hear, doesn't need to be evangelized, doesn't need to Hope in the message spread by a visual representative (as we all should be )of Christ on earth. In Christ, Meep meep

emjayzee -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 12:43:11 PM)
I agree that the pope is a visual public figure, and that can be good for some people. It can also be bad. Who knows? Saying I don't need a pope doesn't mean I don't need spiritual guidance. That's what our elders and preacher are for. See, somewhere in there, the jobs of preaching the Word and leading the congregation got all mixed up. Romans 12 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. How can you concentrate your efforts on studying and preaching the Word, and pay attention the spiritual needs of your congregation at the same time? Both of these are intense responsibilities. In my Catholic upbringing, churches were large, and priests NEVER paid attention to individual needs, unless it was something extraordinary that was brought to their attention. The priest did not, and was not expected to as far as I could tell, make an effort to know each and every member of the parish and offer himself to them as their servant. This is the role of the elder/pastor/shepherd/bishop and is NOT fulfilled in the Catholic church. My elders know me and I know them. I am comfortable going to them wiht my concerns, and they know they can come to me if there is something they feel needs doing that they think I can do. THIS is the way it should be. Our preacher, on the other hand, is expected to do nothing but study and preach the Word, which he does well. Sometimes, yes, he will make an error, but the congregation, because they study the Bible as well, know that they are able to guide and correct him if this happens. Errors or disagreements are thoroughly researched and studied. Priests, it seems, don't make mistakes. They never need correction, which is good because the congregation is not expected to read the Bible. They can read Missals all they want, but not the actual Bible. (Don't tell me I'm wrong, I have personal experience with this. I wanted to read a passage at my mom's funeral and was told I couldn't read from my Bible I had to use the missal.) There are just so many inconsistencies between Catholic teaching and the Bible. And they will never be broken down with this farce of leadership. Do you really believe the Pope is worthy of more guidance from God than you or I are? If so, why? Enough for now. As you may have guessed by now, I'm a little bitter about the Catholic church. [sm=unsure.gif]

sadiebelle -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 1:00:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SaintJVMan quote: ORIGINAL: sadiebelle I heard that they found Peter's body buried in Jeruselem and not Rome. In fact, I read an article that made a case for the fact that no evidence is founf that Peter EVER went to Rome. Paul maybe; Peter...no. Anyone know of this article? I�m not sure what article your mentioning, but can you think of even one Church Father who said that Peter died anywhere but Rome? I know I can think of many who said that he did die there. Can you just look at this article and tell me what you think of it? http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 1:33:51 PM)
Of your two posts that i saw on page one, I thought I'd deal with this one, as it seemed the more genuinely inquisitive of the two.... quote: O.k.-but what is the purpose of the pope, if he is nessessary? The purpose of the Pope is to be the final voice (face, etc.) of the authority of the Church in regards to Faith, its practice, its definition and the discernment of its revelation to the Faithful by God. This is new to me. I never looked into the whole pope thing. If I am pope to me, then why do we need an actual pope? You have a personal Faith at some level, as do I; we won't agree 100.0000% because of our different experiences, etc. I am of the opinion that some Faiths then consider that "self-definition" a perfectly adequate framework on which the vine of personal Faith may weave its way through. Roman Catholics do not accept this - they believe that the framework of Faith IS defined at some higher level than self- it has been defined by Jesus and the example of His relationship and His instruction on how we should live that relationship. These teachings are captured in Scriptures and in the experiences and teachings of those who witnessed Jesus first hand, the Apostles. I don't believe that Scripture contains every word of every waking moment of Jesus - Scripture contains the major themes, etc. The Apostles, however, were the vessels for this day-by-day experience with Chirst, and at Pentecost, they were charged with the mission of Church - to spread and instruct and guard the Faith, and to be the discerner of its continuing revelation from God. These Apostles taught and instructed their followers, who did the same with their followers, and so on. The office that occupies the Chair of Peter, according to the Faith of Roman Catholics, is the Bishop of Rome, the Pontiff - the Pope. If I can yalk to God myself, what do I, personally need him for? You need him to assist you with help that your personal Faith practices are in accordance with the Faith revealed by God - through the Church (Scriptures - and the continuation of the teachings and early practices of Christianity). The Church has a termondous number of resources to assist and guide the Faithful - namely in its charge to define and instruct the practice of Faith. Thus, I do not need a degree in Theology, a knowledge of Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew and advanced studies in ancient cultures in order to correctly practice Faith. I simply need to yield to the authority of a Church (note that I am not saying "Catholic" here) that does have such resources. THere were some very valid questions asked above - how do you know you have it right (your answer - "I've been touched by the Spirit" - well, you know what, everyone here who has discerned his own message that disagrees with you has also "been touched by the Spirit". So, who's got the truth here - you or them?) To me he's always been some dude that traveled a lot and blessed people all over. That is very nice, but isnt that what all of us are supose to be doing anyway? He has the benefit of money from titheing to finance his trips. I dont. Nor you either, I assume? I am sure if the church would pay for it, you and I both would travel and witness. We wouldn't if we stunk at it. Surely you would be willing to concede that the last Pontiff was a wonderful representative for this Faith and used this office to accomplish some amazing things in the name of God - principally the prusuit of peace and the fall of communism in Eastern Europe. I don't accept that this was simply by accident or concidence, but rather by Spirtual guidance and an example of the Holy Spirit working through a man and a Church to do the work of God here on earth. What does your pastor do? Plus, he speaks in latin. How many people around the world can speak and understand that? Latin is used becuase it is a "dead" language - it has not "evolved" since the beginning of Christiainty. Thus, if I said that Jesus was a "righteous dude, throwing the smack-down on satan", that might not have the same meaning in 20 years that it has now. Latin is used extensively in medicine and biological sciences for the same reason because the disciplines and development (the "revelation" for want of a better term) in these fields span multi-generations (just like Faith should) He could be sayin anything he wants, and the interpreters could just say what we want to hear. (I know this is far out there, but even to just listen to him bores me, and I turn the channel. Yes, this is far out there. Jrsus is cool to us, because we can get personal with him. How are we supose tp get personal with a closed off older guy, that cant even speak to me? On the contrary - Pope John Paul II was fluent in about 8 languages - one of them was English. He also connected really well in person with younger people - more so than I dare say any other Pope ever. I know some of my questions may irritate you, but keep in mind, I dont know anything really about the whole pope thing. We agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven. That is good. I beleive that Jesus told us to confess our sins to him, and only he could forgive sins. This is one of the things that the pharasees got mad at him about. Why do catholics need to confess to anyone other than Jesus? Because Jesus gave the authority to "bind and loose" to the Apostles (specifically Peter in Luke). This authority is an aspect of "Church" - sins that are bound on earth are bound in heaven, same goes with the definition and instruction of Faith. Many believers assume that we all have that power, but we don't. In every instance (John and Luke) that this is mentioned, Jesus is speaking to Apostles. Why? What if you bind something that I loose, or vice-versa? Who wins? What Jesus was doing here was establishing the concept of His authority, vested in an institution, run by His followers (Apostles and their successors). That institution is the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, in my opinion. These two Faith Bodies are 1,250,000,000 people and make up the vast majority of Christianity. If you took a cross-section of Christianity world-wide and sent 200 people to a meeting proportional to the numbers of worldide-faithful, 100 people in the room would be Roman Catholic, 25 would be Eastern Orthodox. There would be 3 Baptists, for example. My biggest question is just this, What is the pope for? What is his job? What is his purpose? I dont see what the big deal is. kind of tried to cover this above. He is the voice and the face of the Roman Catholic Church and speaks for the Church on matters of Faith and practice. In these areas, Catholics assent to the authority of the Church. This authority is "personified" - given a name and a face - in the Pope. If you sit at home, read Scripture, decide by yourself what it means of you and define your own Faith practice, then you are your own Pope, which I believe to be the least Scriptural. There are some Faiths that try to define practice at a higher level and instruct the Faithful (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Southern Baptist, etc.) Whoever is the voice and face that may speak for these Churches IS the "Pope" in that regard (for Anglicans, it is the Archbishop of Canterbury, I believe, as an example). It should be obvious that these people do not lie on the path of communication between God and the people, but between Church and the people. Hope the above dissertation helps.

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 1:36:30 PM)
quote: What up GoodMe?? Cool avatar and good to see you are present and accounted for, now I can breathe! *wink Yes - an example of Byzantine iconography that I found on-line. I just love the colors and the style of it. It is St. Pete, just like the old one, but obviously a different rendering.

beachpjs -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 2:54:41 PM)
I am not very eloquent or very knowledgeable as some of you are on here. But I can't help but wonder what Peter would have thought of the catholic church today. From what I've seen the ideal of a pope is based on only 1 verse in the bible that can be interpreted different ways. Peter was known to be a rebel and a hothead at times. I can't see him as being for all the hoopla that goes with being catholic (rituals, etc.). I think the pope can sometimes be seen as someone that people worship and I only worship God. I also do not need to go through someone else to ask forgiveness for my sins. I go directly to God. Just my 2 cents worth.

Lurker -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 3:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beachpjs I am not very eloquent or very knowledgeable as some of you are on here. But I can't help but wonder what Peter would have thought of the catholic church today. From what I've seen the ideal of a pope is based on only 1 verse in the bible that can be interpreted different ways. Peter was known to be a rebel and a hothead at times. I can't see him as being for all the hoopla that goes with being catholic (rituals, etc.). I think the pope can sometimes be seen as someone that people worship and I only worship God. I also do not need to go through someone else to ask forgiveness for my sins. I go directly to God. Just my 2 cents worth. You can of course go to God directly and ask forgiveness, but Jesus granted the Apostles the power to fogive sins in His name. "�As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.� And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, �Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained�" (John 20:21�23) And then we have the writings of the Apostle Paul who says, "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18) Christ Himself gave the Apostles to forgive sins in His name, but in order for them to know what sins were to be forgiven and what sins were to be retained, they would need to know what the sins are. Thus, we can see where the need to give confession would be needed. And the teachings of the early Church Fathers seem clear on this as well. There's a great page that has a list of quotes from early Church Fathers that talk about confession here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp I encourage you to check it out. :)

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 5:24:29 PM)
quote: I am not very eloquent or very knowledgeable as some of you are on here. But I can't help but wonder what Peter would have thought of the catholic church today. From what I've seen the ideal of a pope is based on only 1 verse in the bible that can be interpreted different ways. Peter was known to be a rebel and a hothead at times. I can't see him as being for all the hoopla that goes with being catholic (rituals, etc.). I think the pope can sometimes be seen as someone that people worship and I only worship God. I also do not need to go through someone else to ask forgiveness for my sins. I go directly to God. Just my 2 cents worth. Its worth noting that the practice of Christianity in general is seen as "hoopla" by those of no Faith, so perhaps the observation of "hoopla" is a relative one. I note that the rest of your post is reflective (as others have been here) of a lack of understanding of who and what the Pontiff is to Catholics. This seems to be the same oft-repeated "lore" that is circulated within some non-Catholic Churches. You don't have to be eloquent nor knowledgable to be welcome and to ask questions. That's how we learn and grow. As to some of the other comments: - The idea of a Pope is the idea of "Church", the Pope being the man that is the voice of that authority. If the Pope and I lunch at a cafe in Rome, and the Pontiff finds the soup too hot, I might disagree with him as I tend to like hot soup. However, if by the learned and Spiritually guided discernment of the resources of the Church, the Pope communicates to those in full communion with the Church that the preperation of Lent is to include fasting and abstinence on Fridays, then I am to submit to that authority - as it is the practice of Faith as defined by the Church. It is given a vpoice by the Pope, but it is the Church (Christ) speaking to us. - Nobody worships the Pope. However, the office is noted and due respect for this office is shown by kissing the ring that represents the office. This leads to interesting photo-ops with meetings with world leaders as they decide whether to acknowledge Faith or State (countries with heavy Catholic constituencies usually expect leaders to respect the office). - The Church via Peter has the authority to bind and loose sins. The Priest is merely administering this authority of the Church in the Sacrament of Penance. Within your Faith, do you simply ignore this instruction? If you believe it applies liberally to all of Faith, and not just those in authority within the Church, why did Jesus give to Peter and not give to someone like the Samaritan woman at the well (who IS an analogy for the laity that accept Christ)?

meep meep -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 5:55:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beachpjs I am not very eloquent or very knowledgeable as some of you are on here. But I can't help but wonder what Peter would have thought of the catholic church today. From what I've seen the ideal of a pope is based on only 1 verse in the bible that can be interpreted different ways. Peter was known to be a rebel and a hothead at times. I can't see him as being for all the hoopla that goes with being catholic (rituals, etc.). I think the pope can sometimes be seen as someone that people worship and I only worship God. I also do not need to go through someone else to ask forgiveness for my sins. I go directly to God. Just my 2 cents worth. Dear Beach: The most important knowledge is that of Jesus Christ. Whether one is Catholic or not. The idea of "pope" is now entrenched in the minds of many as purely Roman Catholic...and yet the patriarchs of the Eastern rite serve to fill a similar scripturally based function - which is where it comes from. As an aside, I cannot begin to tell you how moving the litany of the Eastern rite patriarchs around the casket of JPII was. I don't know what Peter would say - he might think that despite sinfulness and humanity, corruption, jealousies, greed, politics, war and stupidity - God has never failed in his promises and has preserved a "city on a hill" so that his message could be spread around the world. Would God abhor ritual? Perhaps not. If one carefully reads the OT one can see all the directions for ritual worship required of his people - this wasn't the LAW- it was a prescribed way of doing things in order to worship God. Ritual and liturgy are part of worship - it enriches one's experience immensely when the symbol is understood - Christian worship can be very rich and full- or it can be banal and skeletal. Revelation describes Heavenly worship in a way that seems very ritualistic. I'm not sure God would disapprove or that Peter would see it differently. As to the 1 verse, others here, who are more adept can post innumerable verses which support the primacy of Peter. Even if these are ignored one can look at the emergence of this doctrine in the understanding of the Apostles and the Church as a reality from the very beginning. You are to be commended for being such a good Christian. Others are not quite as strong and should they err and worship their pastor, or their house, car, children, job, denomination ( or lack thereof), computer, i-pod, food, clothing, or significant other - it is good to know that there is forgiveness and reconciliation to God. Yeah, Popes - like anybody - else can be worshipped by those of us who are weak or may not know better - but can you point me to ANYWHERE where JPII (as an example) ever said to worship him? Anywhere he ever pointed to himself and not Jesus? Where has he ever said he was supposed to pray for us to God? Did he ever exhort us to not pray - or did he do the opposite. Yes, God will forgive us if we confess to him directly - he also says thast where there are two or more gathered in his name (and in agreement) there He can be found. Why can you not ALSO see forgiveness, counsel, and compassion where Jesus, one's pastor and God gather together? You don't need steak, salad, potatoes and cake as a meal - you could get your nutrients (just barely) through a glucose drip or a feeding tube - it's the same with God - he promises abundance ( including in worship ) whether we chose to partake of that abundance is the freedom we have- but it doesn't make another way wrong. In Christ, Meep meep

bishop35 -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:05:46 PM)
Goodme, Thank you for your patience, I realize you explained a couple different things to me more than once. You even filled me in on some things I didnt know! I realize jp2 was a great humanitarian. He did more for the world than any other pope for a very long time. I give him props for all that. And whoever they choose to replace him will have some very big shoes to fill. I understand that millions of people look to him for insperation and leadership. It was sad to see all those people weeping at his death. All that said, I just dont agree in the postion. As a protestant, I need no such figure head leader. What does my paster do? He preaches the word of God to people I know, that I grew up with. He tries to save marrages, and strengthen relationships. He babptizes people into the family of God. He dedicates newborn babies to Jesus. He does what he can to help and teach us, even on an individual basis. There are thousands of these men (and a few women) who hold this postion, but they have no pomp and circumstance, no great title, just a humble job to do.

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:12:15 PM)
quote: Goodme, Thank you for your patience, I realize you explained a couple different things to me more than once. You even filled me in on some things I didnt know! I realize jp2 was a great humanitarian. He did more for the world than any other pope for a very long time. I give him props for all that. And whoever they choose to replace him will have some very big shoes to fill. I understand that millions of people look to him for insperation and leadership. It was sad to see all those people weeping at his death. All that said, I just dont agree in the postion. As a protestant, I need no such figure head leader. What does my paster do? He preaches the word of God to people I know, that I grew up with. He tries to save marrages, and strengthen relationships. He babptizes people into the family of God. He dedicates newborn babies to Jesus. He does what he can to help and teach us, even on an individual basis. There are thousands of these men (and a few women) who hold this postion, but they have no pomp and circumstance, no great title, just a humble job to do. What is your pastor's position on stem cell research? What is the pastor across the street's position?

blackbelt -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:24:08 PM)
ok here is my experance , I was born and raised Roman Catholic, my entire family is Roman Catholic, today after experancing the Holy Spirit in my life and reading the bible I am no longer Roman Catholic but a true Christian, so having said that and God forgive me for speaking against the Catholic system but, the truth is the truth. The reason they have a pope is because they like to have there parasiners belive that salvation is through them, the pope is the closest to God, they teach that confesion of sinns should be told to a Father of the church (prest), all there traditions and belifes come down to one thing Control of the masses, they do not fill the spirtuial needs of the people, and inpose penance and forgiveness of sinns only through them. After being rejected a few times By the Roman Church because I married a divorced lady(I was told I had to pay 500 to 1000 dollars to the church for an investgation into her previous marrage to see if it was forgavible or not by the bishop) Im Happy to say today Im a Christan, I have the indwelling of the Spirit (which the Roman Church says its only for the prests, they brushed me off) and by the grace of God I read and understand the bible. do we need a pope? nope

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:35:58 PM)
quote: ok here is my experance , I was born and raised Roman Catholic, my entire family is Roman Catholic, today after experancing the Holy Spirit in my life and reading the bible I am no longer Roman Catholic but a true Christian, so having said that and God forgive me for speaking against the Catholic system but, the truth is the truth. And opinion is opinion, but carry on. The reason they have a pope is because they like to have there parasiners belive that salvation is through them, the pope is the closest to God, they teach that confesion of sinns should be told to a Father of the church (prest), all there traditions and belifes come down to one thing Control of the masses, they do not fill the spirtuial needs of the people, and inpose penance and forgiveness of sinns only through them. A Catholic of my knowledge and experience might accuse you of not paying very close attention during your time in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church... After being rejected a few times By the Roman Church because I married a divorced lady(I was told I had to pay 500 to 1000 dollars to the church for an investgation into her previous marrage to see if it was forgavible or not by the bishop) I can dismiss this immediately as "mythology". What is the real story here? This isn't even remotely how it works. The Church recognizes the sanctity of marriage and it is true that in order to be married in the Church, a divorced person would have to show an impediment in that previous relationship if that person were also a Baptized Christian of any denomination. It is also true that some Dioceses ask for a donation to support the marriage tribunal (composed usually of lay people) in its work to investigate your situation. This is free in my Diocese, but sometimes might run as much as $80.00 in some of the "pricier" Dioceses. Im Happy to say today Im a Christan, I have the indwelling of the Spirit (which the Roman Church says its only for the prests, they brushed me off) and by the grace of God I read and understand the bible. Please. When did you actually quit practicing your Faith - as a teenager, perhaps? do we need a pope? nope

meep meep -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bishop35 Goodme, Thank you for your patience, I realize you explained a couple different things to me more than once. You even filled me in on some things I didnt know! I realize jp2 was a great humanitarian. He did more for the world than any other pope for a very long time. I give him props for all that. And whoever they choose to replace him will have some very big shoes to fill. I understand that millions of people look to him for insperation and leadership. It was sad to see all those people weeping at his death. All that said, I just dont agree in the postion. As a protestant, I need no such figure head leader. What does my paster do? He preaches the word of God to people I know, that I grew up with. He tries to save marrages, and strengthen relationships. He babptizes people into the family of God. He dedicates newborn babies to Jesus. He does what he can to help and teach us, even on an individual basis. There are thousands of these men (and a few women) who hold this postion, but they have no pomp and circumstance, no great title, just a humble job to do. As a young man JPII worked in a rock quarry as slave labor for the Nazi's; he rescued Jews, under cover of night, from certain death. he studied for pastoral service at an underground seminary - hidden from the brutality of the Nazis - in peril of certain death for his studies. When he was ordained - what did he do? He baptized, he celebrated mass, he counseled young people, he led others to Christ, he wrote homilies, he performed weddings, he heard confessions, he accompanied others on their final journey, and he prayed a lot. In short he pastored his flock - living humbly and in great danger for much of his life as a Pastor of God's flock... and to the very end - and this is public record - he lived a spartan and humble life - personally eschewing the pomp and circumstance we assume he enjoyed. Who raised him to the position? Only God... and from this small State - barely a few blocks in size he continued to humbly serve his Master, to recognize the intrinsic dignity in each of us - and to exhort us to follow Christ. Can we honestly say that it was all the pomp, the ritual all the so called riches that drew such a response to him in life and at his death? Maybe, but we have others who show the world much more in riches - Trump, Gates, P Diddy, 50 cent, Benny Hinn, J Lo and many many more who attract our attention. Why would one small frail man with no temporal power make such an impact on the world at large? Why would the world need that? Finally, as to pomp and circumstance - does God hate that? Or are these our values and assume God would not approve? From where did God lift up Joseph in Genesis? Out of the depths of perdition and prison he rose to be one of the most powerful men in the (then) world - and a very rich one at that. Neither the importance, or need for a Pope is defined by the pomp, riches, or circumstances - it is, rather defined by the pastoring of the flock - just like the humble examples you presented. In Christ, Meep meep

GoodME -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:44:17 PM)
Man - that is a nice bit of prose..... Very good, man.

bishop35 -> RE: Why do we need a Pope? (4/13/2005 6:48:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME quote: Goodme, Thank you for your patience, I realize you explained a couple different things to me more than once. You even filled me in on some things I didnt know! I realize jp2 was a great humanitarian. He did more for the world than any other pope for a very long time. I give him props for all that. And whoever they choose to replace him will have some very big shoes to fill. I understand that millions of people look to him for insperation and leadership. It was sad to see all those people weeping at his death. All that said, I just dont agree in the postion. As a protestant, I need no such figure head leader. What does my paster do? He preaches the word of God to people I know, that I grew up with. He tries to save marrages, and strengthen relationships. He babptizes people into the family of God. He dedicates newborn babies to Jesus. He does what he can to help and teach us, even on an individual basis. There are thousands of these men (and a few women) who hold this postion, but they have no pomp and circumstance, no great title, just a humble job to do. What is your pastor's position on stem cell research? What is the pastor across the street's position? You suggest that one voice is needed to decide the really hard issues and/or choices for us? And Some guy I never met before would be perfect for the job. Let me explain this from my understanding. I would rather have someone up close and personal help and guilde me through any hard choice, or to make a tough stand on an issue, than to have a stranger dictate what I need to beleive from the other side of the planet. God gave us a brain, and reason. Why would I want to give up those valuable tools, and let somebody eles think for me, no matter who it is? And if that wasnt your direction, Then, My pastor opposes it, the pastor across the street, I have no idea, and me, I think it shows promise in some aspects. So My pastor and I can dissagree. At least until the Lord lets us know for sure. He can dictate to me anything he wishes. If you dissagreed with the pope, would they excomunicte you or something?

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