|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/23/2008 1:14:44 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
Most of those don't insist that the Pope gets to be the boss of everyone. Shepherd? Sure, of the flock of Rome. Rome was a great church? I'm sure it was. The Pope lists apostolic succession to Peter? I'm sure he does, but it doesn't make him boss. Jerome was a big fan of the Pope? Yes, certainly. The Pope tried to excommunicate Asia Minor and the other bishops disagreed and the other bishops won out? I'm sure they did.
I find it amusing that you dedicated a huge section to Cyprian of Carthage, considering that he also said the following in clarification of his position:
"It remains, that upon this same matter each of us should bring forward what we think, judging no man, nor rejecting any one from the right of communion, if he should think differently from us (a direct allusion to Stephen). For neither does any one of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let all of us wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there" (Ante-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1995), The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, p. 565).
Again, if it were known and accepted that the Pope was the head of all the church over all the bishops, the East-West Schism would not have happened when he claimed that role.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/23/2008 1:15:45 PM
|
|
|
TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
catholicCrusader
I feel like I am wasting my precious time trying to help my catholic friends to Understand Jesus...
Listen, seriously listen and Crush the pride of your man-made religion, just crush it for a minute........
The Church was established by Christ. It is all your multiple protestant denominations that are man-made.
Peter was Chosen by Christ. It is your doctrine of Sola Scriptura, invented in the 16th century, that is man made.
I follow Christ and what He established. You follow your own personal opinions, which are man-made.
I am humble enough to submit to those placed in authority. It is you who needs to Crush the pride that will not allow you to do the same.
.
.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/23/2008 1:21:16 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
We follow scripture, which is directly breathed and inspired by God, written by the original apostles themselves that you claim submission to, which is called "noble" by those apostles. You follow a man whose pedigree includes popes who committed incest and turned basilicas into brothels.
The church established by Christ is all believers. Not just the RCC, not just the EO, not any of the Protestant denominations, but the body of believers.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/23/2008 1:40:40 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11610
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
THis thread is re-opened. Please keep the unwelcome counsel, sarcasm and insults off the thread in this and the other one-stops. They are not playgrounds for snarkiness.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 7/29/2008 10:37:42 AM >
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 11:40:11 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1859
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
This really isn't that difficult. Christ built His Church and established a visible means to guide His flock through the disciples with leadership provided by what came to be known as the Pope. I'm starting to think you just have an allergic reaction to the word "pope". So as I said before Christ is the foundation.
I also find it interesting that you say "all believers" (whatever that means) are part of the Church and yet you continue to argue with Catholics. Unless you think we are not Christian believers, then by your own very basic definition of "church" membership you shouldn't have any concern on how we worship or organize the Church. Do you have "beef" the rest of the protestant denominations as well? It's also interesting on how you do your best to avoid examining your own religious structure. We are either "mean" or you just laugh it off like above with wise cracks. Making fun of Catholicism is of course fair game.
So you're saying we should just sit here and put up with the fact that your church leader says that the rest of us are less Christian (if Christian at all) and only your church is the right church, etc. We don't generally have a "beef" with other Protestant denominations because other Protestant denominations don't usually tell us that the fact that we show up at a building that doesn't have their name on the door means that we're going straight to Hell.
The fact that we think that the Catholics who have put their faith in Jesus are Christians doesn't mean we're not going to argue that point.
Of course we have an allergic reaction to "Pope". The Pope is the guy who created the doctrine about us being lesser Christians if Christians at all just because we don't bow to his self-proclaimed authority. The Pope is the guy whose decisions murdered half the founders of our beliefs. The Pope is the guy responsible for a whole bunch of doctrines in your church that we consider odd at best, semi-heretical at worst.
Why on earth are you surprised that we have a bad reaction to that?
Excellent point, dear Zhi!
I couldnt have said it that well. Succinctly , to the point and very respectful.
Thanks.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 3:17:08 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
I was asked why Protestants appear to be more "allergic" to the Pope than to other denominations. I answered as best I could. You can disagree if you'd like, but it doesn't really change the basis for the feelings. You've called things I said "fairy tales", but I tried to be as accurate as I could, so if there are "fairy tales" involved, do point out factual rebuttals.
The "lesser Christians" has been stated pretty clearly by the RCC regarding their feelings toward Protestants. I can get you quotes to that effect if you would like. I would not call a Catholic believer a "lesser Christian" because there's not really such a concept in the Protestant church (since we don't have all the levels, heirarchies, extra afterlife issues, and sacraments that you do).
I did find this comment interesting.
quote:
And the Church never presumes to judge the final state of a soul...you should no better.
Yet in the "Praying to the Saints" thread, quite the opposite is claimed... after all, in order to canonize Saints, the Catholic Church must make some presumption regarding the final state of a soul. If you do not, then you cannot claim to know that someone is in heaven, therefore you cannot claim them to be a saint, therefore you cannot pray to them expecting them to forward things to God.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 5:07:30 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 920
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yet in the "Praying to the Saints" thread, quite the opposite is claimed... after all, in order to canonize Saints, the Catholic Church must make some presumption regarding the final state of a soul. I think you are confusing "infer" ("surmise" is not the right word here) with "judge". People wind up in heaven because of God and grace - judgment; people wind up as Saints because the Church deduces or infers them to be in heaven, given what is revealed to it by God (i. e., evidence of the efficacy of their prayers for our causes).
Big difference to me.
Thanks for re-opening the thread, Betty.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 5:27:21 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
Either way it's presumption.
If you're going to be praying to them, then you'd better be right when canonizing. And so, the Pope makes a presumption regarding the status of a person who has died, with apparently a high level of confidence, or he would be sending a whole lot of prayer to a dead end.
In fact, according to the "Catholic Encyclopedia" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm), the Pope is considered by most Catholic theologians to be infallible when proclaiming canonization. That's pretty obviously a judgment regarding "the final state of a soul".
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 6:23:15 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 920
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Either way it's presumption. Okay - so the point was made with the previous post. The canonization is not the cause of heaven for the Saint, but the recognition of this state that is caused by grace and by God.
So then we get into - why would the Holy Spirit mislead or misguide the process of canonization? Who or what agent provides the evidence of the efficacy of the prayers of the Saint for a cause? If it is not God, who is performing these miracles? And - are these really miracles, or convenient coincidence or happy accidents? Would the Church risk it's authority on perpetrating hoaxes? If the miracles are hoaxes, why hasn't John Stossel of 20/20 or The New York Times rooted out these hoaxes?
As to your comment about infallibility related to canonization, I am not sure the canonization falls under ex-cathedra. The question is to whether or not canonization is a definite statement that the person is in heaven, or that the person has practiced Christian virtues in a heroic degree. To me - I say "what's the difference?" One is likely the result of the other (the ability to practice Christian virtue to a heroic degree to me speaks of a level of sanctification...). I believe most theologians would say that this is an infallible instruction, as this is a matter of faith (to believe a Saint is canonized is to look at that person and their accomplishements and results, and be able to say, "yes, I believe that person is heavenbound"...). Others might take a more legalistic view.
The Pope presides over the canonization as the voice of the authority of the Church. And it is the authority of the Church by which we accept the instruction that Padre Pio is a Saint, for example.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/29/2008 6:31:19 PM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 8:07:44 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
Okay - so the point was made with the previous post. The canonization is not the cause of heaven for the Saint, but the recognition of this state that is caused by grace and by God.
Inconsequential. The question is whether or not the RCC presumes to judge (know) the final state of a soul. If the RCC can claim, via canonization, the final state of a soul by proclaiming that they did, in fact, go directly to heaven, then the RCC presumes to judge the final state of a soul. If they did not, then they would not have any grounds on which to make further claims that these saints are in heaven able to intercede.
quote:
So then we get into - why would the Holy Spirit mislead or misguide the process of canonization?
Well, that's the thing. Since there's no Scriptural basis for the process of canonization, there's really no saying whether or not the Holy Spirit would participate in any form. So, while I would say that the Holy Spirit would not mislead or misguide anything (as God is not a liar), there is no indication that the Holy Spirit would lead or guide a canonization either.
quote:
Who or what agent provides the evidence of the efficacy of the prayers of the Saint for a cause?
Well, I'm not sure how exactly you measure prayer efficacy. Is there some sort of unit of measurement involved? But, as Scripture says, the prayers of a righteous man are very effective. This in no way indicates that the person in question will hear and continue to pray for us in heaven, but I have no problem with the idea that the prayer of a godly person here on earth can be very helpful.
quote:
If it is not God, who is performing these miracles? And - are these really miracles, or convenient coincidence or happy accidents? Would the Church risk it's authority on perpetrating hoaxes? If the miracles are hoaxes, why hasn't John Stossel of 20/20 or The New York Times rooted out these hoaxes?
Well, again, I have no problem with the idea that a godly living person can pray to God to heal someone (or themselves, for that matter). I've seen a few things that I would consider miracles in my own congregations. That being said, there are plenty of hoaxes out there as well. So, I guess we would have to discuss it on a case by case basis.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 8:54:56 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Doghouse wrote: quote:
Okay - so the point was made with the previous post. The canonization is not the cause of heaven for the Saint, but the recognition of this state that is caused by grace and by God.
And Zhi [Hi, BTW] replied:
quote:
Inconsequential.
How so? Doghouse's response reflects the teaching of the Catholic Church whether you deem it "inconsequential" or not. It is the teaching of the Church, and therefore, an accurate response in opposition to your misconceptions and quite in line with the intent of this particular discussion.
quote:
The question is whether or not the RCC presumes to judge (know) the final state of a soul.
And THAT particular question has been asked and answered countless times in this thread alone. The answer is "no;" not in the Catholic Church, though I've personally noticed a whole lot of "judge[ment]" being spewed by our separated brether against us and each other.
quote:
If the RCC can claim, via canonization, the final state of a soul by proclaiming that they did, in fact, go directly to heaven, then the RCC presumes to judge the final state of a soul. If they did not, then they would not have any grounds on which to make further claims that these saints are in heaven able to intercede.
Saints are revealed to the Church by the action of the Spirit based on the promises of Christ. The Church does not "reveal" the Saints, She only recognizes them by God's Grace.
quote:
Well, that's the thing. Since there's no Scriptural basis for the process of canonization, there's really no saying whether or not the Holy Spirit would participate in any form. So, while I would say that the Holy Spirit would not mislead or misguide anything (as God is not a liar), there is no indication that the Holy Spirit would lead or guide a canonization either.
And the Spirit moves as the wind. Try to get a grasp on that without a firm foundation and the will of God.
Till next time...Pax Christi,
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 9:25:14 PM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
but I tried to be as accurate as I could, so if there are "fairy tales" involved, do point out factual rebuttals
So broad sweeping generalities is accuracy? How would you like me to reply? There are plenty of books detailing the papacy you can avail yourself of, and I would even look at the Catholic ones.
quote:
The "lesser Christians" has been stated pretty clearly by the RCC regarding their feelings toward Protestants. I can get you quotes to that effect if you would like.
So its ok for you to try to convince people that some of their beliefs are mistaken and yet you deny that right to the Catholic Church? Protestantism doesn't contain much truth--does that mean your lesser? Of course not, just mistaken.
As for saints well I suppose from your perspective it looks that way, but the Church is actually only acknowledging what is found to be true by miracles and such. But I will restate saying that the Church has never judged a soul is hellbound. Wouldn't you say that if someone doesn't believe in Christ is in hell? So aren't you making even stronger judgements than the Church?
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 10:27:50 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
How so? Doghouse's response reflects the teaching of the Catholic Church whether you deem it "inconsequential" or not. It is the teaching of the Church, and therefore, an accurate response in opposition to your misconceptions and quite in line with the intent of this particular discussion.
How they arrive at the conclusion is inconsequential, what matters is that they make conclusions regarding the eternal state of certain souls.
quote:
And THAT particular question has been asked and answered countless times in this thread alone. The answer is "no;" not in the Catholic Church, though I've personally noticed a whole lot of "judge[ment]" being spewed by our separated brether against us and each other.
You can't have it both ways. Either you know the people the Pope has canonized are in heaven, or you don't. Since the concept posited by a previous poster (not me) that praying to the saints is unwise as you are not sure of their status (whether they are in heaven or not) was vehemently rejected by the Catholic posters, one must conclude that there is a judgement made regarding at least the status of those who are canonized.
quote:
Saints are revealed to the Church by the action of the Spirit based on the promises of Christ. The Church does not "reveal" the Saints, She only recognizes them by God's Grace.
I never said the RCC "reveals" the saints, I merely said that they make statements of knowledge regarding the final state of certain souls. Where they get the knowledge is inconsequential, it's a statement of knowledge made by the Pope when a canonization is performed.
quote:
And the Spirit moves as the wind. Try to get a grasp on that without a firm foundation and the will of God.
Okay. That really has nothing to do with whether or not the Holy Spirit is at all involved in the mechanics of the unscriptural practice of canonization by the Pope.
quote:
So broad sweeping generalities is accuracy? How would you like me to reply? There are plenty of books detailing the papacy you can avail yourself of, and I would even look at the Catholic ones.
Hmm. I did not think my comments were at all broad or general. We are discussing most of the doctrines in this thread and others, and they have been listed repeatedly. We have also recently discussed the speech by Pope Benedict XVI stating that "It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects," and "According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense.". As for murdering our founders, here's a small and incomplete list: Martin Tyndale (burned), Richard Bayfield (burned), John Cooper (drawn and quartered), John Hooper (burned), Jan Huss (burned), Hugh Latimer (burned)... this isn't even counting the 100,000 French Huguenots who were pulled out of their homes and murdered in a single night by papal armies, and other massive slaughters of Protestants.
Is that specific enough for you?
quote:
So its ok for you to try to convince people that some of their beliefs are mistaken and yet you deny that right to the Catholic Church? Protestantism doesn't contain much truth--does that mean your lesser? Of course not, just mistaken.
I'm not denying you the right of trying to convince people. I was just asked why Protestants are more, well, bristly, toward the RCC than toward other Protestant denominations, and I answered as best I could.
As for Truth, we use the Bible, breathed by God Himself, through the Apostles themselves, as our source of Truth. I'm not sure how you can get more truth-y than that.
quote:
As for saints well I suppose from your perspective it looks that way, but the Church is actually only acknowledging what is found to be true by miracles and such. But I will restate saying that the Church has never judged a soul is hellbound. Wouldn't you say that if someone doesn't believe in Christ is in hell? So aren't you making even stronger judgements than the Church?
Not any moreso than the Catholic teaching that anyone who dies with mortal sin on their soul will go directly to Hell. It's an if-then statement. If someone doesn't believe in Christ, then they go to hell, but we would make no judgement regarding whether we believe a specified person died without belief in Christ. For you, if someone dies with mortal sin on their soul, then they go to Hell. As Pope Benedict said November 5, 2006, ""Indeed, those who die in unrepented mortal sin, closed off from God's love by their prideful rejection, exclude themselves from the kingdom of life."
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/29/2008 10:58:59 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Here's what a pope wrote
---pope writes God wanted popes to rule
---you must obey the pope
---guesses as to what Christ wanted
---pope gives power to self & church
---pope claims church infallible
---makes laws concerning all things...
---opposition is a serious crime
Does anyone see a pattern here ?
COMMISSUM DIVINITUS
ON CHURCH AND STATE
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI
MAY 17, 1835
4. He who made everything and who governs by a prudent arrangement wanted order to flourish in His Church. He wanted some people to be in charge and govern and others to be subject and obey. Therefore, the Church has, by its divine institution, the power of the magisterium to teach and define matters of faith and morals and to interpret the Holy Scriptures without danger of error. It also has the power of governance to preserve and strengthen in the true doctrine those whom it welcomes as children and to make laws concerning all things which pertain to the salvation of souls, the exercise of the sacred ministry, and divine worship. Whoever opposes these laws makes himself guilty of a very serious crime.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 1:09:31 AM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Pope Benedict XVI stating that "It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects," and "According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense.".
Zhi,
Are you just upset that he clearly states the Church's position? Maybe he should have said that protestant just "odd" beliefs.
quote:
As for murdering our founders, here's a small and incomplete
Here we go. I think I can come up with a protestant list as well. Any history will tell you the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre was not a one night event. Yes many were killed, but you will be hard pressed to find the pope in direct or indirect influence over specific events of this very bloody period. Read something beside the questionable Foxes book of martyrs.
quote:
As for Truth, we use the Bible, breathed by God Himself, through the Apostles themselves, as our source of Truth. I'm not sure how you can get more truth-y than that.
So do we...so whats your point. Well the point is that you have your own opinions of what the bible means and in the Church's view your wrong on most points.
quote:
If someone doesn't believe in Christ, then they go to hell, but we would make no judgement regarding whether we believe a specified person died without belief in Christ. For you, if someone dies with mortal sin on their soul, then they go to Hell.
So whats the difference? You may not like or understand mortal sin, but essentially you are saying the same thing.
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 1:23:48 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
Are you just upset that he clearly states the Church's position? Maybe he should have said that protestant just "odd" beliefs.
No, I'm not particularly upset about it. I was asked why Protestants seem "allergic" to the Pope and not to other Protestant denominations. I gave the best reasons I could. We're dealing with feelings here, and that's going to by necessity be subjective to some extent.
So, when the Pope says something like that, I'm not terribly surprised, and it certainly isn't going to affect my personal faith, but it does demonstrate a major reason why Protestants and Catholics don't really mix well in religious terms, as opposed to Protestants with other Protestant denominations, which is what I was asked.
When an Imam like el-Faisal says that they need to kill all infidels, I'm not terribly surprised but not particularly happy about that either. *shrug* Would you feel better if I said that I'm significantly less unhappy about the Pope's declaration?
quote:
Here we go. I think I can come up with a protestant list as well. Any history will tell you the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre was not a one night event. Yes many were killed, but you will be hard pressed to find the pope in direct or indirect influence over specific events of this very bloody period. Read something beside the questionable Foxes book of martyrs.
I'm sure you can find some. But, again, the question regarded mistrust between Protestants and Catholics and "allergy" to the Pope. It's similar to the issue that EO have with RCC over the sacking of Constantinople. Did other stuff happen? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a sore point.
quote:
So do we...so whats your point. Well the point is that you have your own opinions of what the bible means and in the Church's view your wrong on most points.
Also not terribly surprising, but the RCC's view seems to be having a lot more trouble finding supporting scripture, and Protestants have never been terribly impressed by tradition that isn't easily backed by scripture. So, to us, your Magisterium is not convincing.
quote:
So whats the difference? You may not like or understand mortal sin, but essentially you are saying the same thing.
My point exactly. You accused Protestants of "making even stronger judgements than the Church" and my example points out that no, we don't.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 7:02:58 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 920
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Either you know the people the Pope has canonized are in heaven, or you don't. The third option here being that we believe these people are in heaven, by an examination of their lives and their cooperation with grace, by an examination of the deposit of faith and its instruction on how we are to live our Christian faith, and by the evidence provided as to the efficacy of the prayers of the Saint (the prayers seem or appear to achieve results).
So canonization is the Church instructing us the example of the life of a Saint as a valid example of the cooperation with grace and the relationship with God that the Church is trying to impress upon us, and the evidence that this way of living, this cooperation with Grace has resulted in the Saint being in heaven - as evidenced by some miracle (action) attributable to God answering or responding to the prayer of the Saint.
I don't know how to break it down any more. I continue to see a confusion of "fact" and "faith" in your dialog.
If a billion people believe that Padre Pio is in heaven, and simultaneously ask God for His Grace like that supplied to Padre Pio and the Holy Spirit for the strength to cooperate with that Grace the way Padre Pio did, do you think God hears that prayer?
Some here would say "no" - perhaps on some technicality. If this is the case, they are practicing Judaism - the "legalism" of the Old Testament. They need to grab their yarmulke and head to temple.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 10:38:19 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
Well, we've already discussed the fact that the number of people who believe something does not really affect the truth of that belief either way.
I don't particularly have a problem with someone asking God (directly) for help in demonstrating the kind of faith demonstrated by someone they admire for the faith they demonstrate. I think that sort of "follow the example" faith is demonstrated scripturally in the various "champions of the faith list" sections of Scripture. I would, though, caution people against placing too much of their faith in the faith of another human, because humans are fallible, and I would not want to see their faith damaged if the person they admire should fall.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 8:57:02 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi Zhi,
quote:
I would, though, caution people against placing too much of their faith in the faith of another human, because humans are fallible, and I would not want to see their faith damaged if the person they admire should fall.
That's the thing, Zhi, the Saints in heaven can no longer "fall." That's why their prayers are so efficacious--they are living in the promises of Christ, united in the Trinity. James 5:26 makes no sense outside the Catholic understanding, IMHO. There is so much harping on "no one is righteous, no not one" around here, I wonder if anyone has ever read the book of James at all. [Luther did want to toss it into the river, after all]. ;)
As I see it, everyone still lurking in this vale of tears realizes we have not "been made perfect" yet the Catholic Christian hope is living and active. If and when we are called to our heavenly reward, the only thing that will remain is "love," because we will know as we are known; therefore, there will be no need for "faith" or "hope." [I'm sure you know the reference, but if not, let me know and I'll post the whole passage.] The Love our Lord promised in heaven is what fills the souls of the Saints. Love for God and Love for us....all by His Grace.
Believe it or not and take it for what you will. IMHO, the Catholic Faith actually believes the promises of Christ and takes them to heart in their view of the Saints. The doctrine of the communion of saints defined at the earliest councils is lost on modern day non-Catholic Christians. What a shame.
Pax et bonum,
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/30/2008 11:09:46 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1118
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
Things can be found out about saints after their death that can be problematic as well. *shrug*
If Christ had actually promised that the saints can hear us and we should pray to them, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, that's a church tradition, not a promise of Christ.
I think we're getting off topic, though. This is the Pope thread, and the particulars of the initial discussion at least involved the Pope "knowing" who to canonize.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
| | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
