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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 1:03:34 AM
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bishop35
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Lurker, my friend, while I am over joyed at your energy about this whole pope thing, and how you and goodme, and all of you, seperate pope from church, I just cant jump on the bandwagon. It is awsome for you to love God, and Jesus and have a nice old dude to head it all up for you, but I read the verses that you all says is telling you that Peter was the first Pope, and I just dont get that out of the verses. Did the pope and the church tell you that's what those scriptures ment and you just trust them? Hey, thats great for you, but I tend to beleive that the Holy spirit helps us understand Gods will. The Holy Spirit opens our heart to Jesus. And the Holy Spirit can live and talk and do all these things to any man. Not just the Pope.
So I guess I want to say, love ya, bless ya, see you in heaven, but I'm done with this topic. Later my friends.
O, and lurker, Martin Luther said that before he split with the catholic church. If you didnt say that stuff, you would get kicked out. Maybe that was one of the straws that made him break from the catholic, and start the prodestant movement.
< Message edited by bishop35 -- 4/19/2005 1:06:24 AM >
_____________________________
So brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all........with nasty, big, pointy teeth!!!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 1:28:00 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 678
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bishop35
Lurker, my friend, while I am over joyed at your energy about this whole pope thing, and how you and goodme, and all of you, seperate pope from church, I just cant jump on the bandwagon. It is awesome for you to love God, and Jesus and have a nice old dude to head it all up for you, but I read the verses that you all says is telling you that Peter was the first Pope, and I just don't get that out of the verses. Did the pope and the church tell you that's what those scriptures ment and you just trust them? Hey, thats great for you, but I tend to beleive that the Holy spirit helps us understand Gods will. The Holy Spirit opens our heart to Jesus. And the Holy Spirit can live and talk and do all these things to any man. Not just the Pope.
So I guess I want to say, love ya, bless ya, see you in heaven, but I'm done with this topic. Later my friends.
O, and lurker, Martin Luther said that before he split with the catholic church. If you didnt say that stuff, you would get kicked out. Maybe that was one of the straws that made him break from the catholic, and start the prodestant movement.
I'm sorry to see you go. I really think you added a lot of good things to this thread. We may not have ended up agreeing, but your posts always forced me to think on my views and pray. I do believe that the Holy Spirit can indeed talk to us directly, but I still feel that the Catholic Church has proven to be the Church Christ founded not just because it says it is, but because it's survived. Christ promised that the Church He would found would be with us until He returned. So far, the only Church that has not only survived, but grown since the time of the Apostles is the Catholic Church (and our Orthodox Bretheren). These two lungs of the Christian Church have survived the invasion of the Mongols, the invasions of the Moors(muslims), corruption from within the Magesterium, and indeed the later schisms that started the Protestant movement. It has survived and preached the Good News to the entire world. And it continues to do so today. What Protestant denomination can claim to have existed from the time of the Apostles and prove it?
I may not fully understand all the Church teaches, but I know that it's been tested time and time again, and always it has survived. If that's not a sign that God intended something special for it, I don't know what is. I feel sorrow that you don't see it this way, but I will continue to pray for you and pray always that the Holy Spirit will guide you and myself as well towards the Truth. If it turns out that either you or I are mistaken, I pray that the Lord will show us His path for our lives and make it clear.
Admittedly, I was once where you are. I doubted the Church. And granted, there are times I still doubt a few things. But I pray daily that the Holy Spirit will guide me and help to make things clear. I don't blindly accept the Church's views on everything, but I do feel obligated to fully examine it's teachings. And so far, it's been proven to me that it's correct. I have yet to encounter a Church so alive with the Scriptures and with history. There's so much devotion to Our Lord Jesus that it makes my heart ache with joy that I've encountered it, and weep with sorrow that it took me so long to find it.
Even today I was pointed to an ancient prayer that describes Our Saviour in such gloriously loving terms it nearly brought me to tears. And this prayer is over 1000 years old! There's so much history that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have saved for us!
Bishop35, I do wish you the very best. I hope that you will at least continue to research the Catholic Church's claims. Don't stop! Remember that we are all called to test everything. Research it! Don't listen to just the Church's view, examine those who disagree! Pray that the Holy Spirit will open your heart to the Truth, whatever it may be!
I'll be praying for you. :)
-Lurker
PS. In case you're interested, that prayer I mentioned earlier can be found here: http://www.monachos.net/other/akathist_to_christ.shtml
:)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 12:55:30 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Long live Pope Benedict XVI !
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 1:06:14 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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"Putting the smackdown on heresy since 1981"
www.ratzingerfanclub.com
Habemus papam!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 1:50:01 PM
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beachpjs
Posts: 31
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: PCB, FL
Status: offline
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Everyone should watch the movie "Luther".
_____________________________
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 4:15:01 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: beachpjs
Everyone should watch the movie "Luther".
Dear beachpjs,
Why, it didn't do a very good job of portraying anyone, especially Luther.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 5:11:16 PM
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JOE6778
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettyg51
Why do we need a pope?
The following examples are based on "general" Protestant beliefs:
* The Lutheran Church believes in baptismal regeneration; the Baptist church does not.
* The Assembly of God denomination uses instrumental music during worship; the Church of Christ denomination believes instrumental music to be unbiblical.
* Presbyterians believe in unconditional atonement and irresistible grace; Methodists reject the two beliefs.
* The Lutheran church believes that worship should be liturgical; the Assembly of God church does not.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism should be administered by complete immersion only; Presbyterians believe pouring is acceptable.
* Methodists believe in the Trinity; Oneness Pentecostals do not.
* Lutherans affirms the fact that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life; Baptists reject this belief and say that Mary had other children.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism is necessary for salvation; the Baptist Church does not.
* The Methodist church accepts female ministers; the Baptist church rejects female ministers as unbiblical.
* Episcopalians baptize infants; Pentecostals believe infant baptism to be invalid.
* The Baptist Church teaches that once a person is saved; he is always saved and cannot fall from grace. The Church of Christ rejects this teaching as unscriptural.
With all these contradictory beliefs, there remains one common thing all these Protestants denominations believe. That is Sola Scriptura (the Bible and the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith). Although the above list is a "generalization" (for example not all Baptists are opposed to female ministers), it is accurate enough to demonstrate the result of sola scriptura. Is it not odd that all these Protestant Churches base their beliefs on the same Bible, yet their beliefs differ in so many ways? Some final questions:
Does the truth matter? See Galatians 1:8-9 "...if anyone preaches a gospel to you other than the one you received, let a curse be upon him!" Yes! It does!
How does anyone know what is the truth? See 1 Timothy 3:15 "...if I should be delayed you will know what kind of conduct befits a member of God's household, the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." What church existed in 33 A.D. and which one still teaches the same doctrines? Study the history of Christianity by reading a book called Early Church Fathers and you will see this church is the Catholic Church.
Betty G.
I was raised a Roman Catholic but left the church after I was confirmed. The church had no relevance for my life. I was saved 15 years later and for the last 19 years I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe that the 15 years I spent away from God was a direct result of my experience with the Catholic church.
The God of the Catholic church to me was a strict disciplinarian that would punish you if you didn't do those "good works" that we were supposed to do as good Catholics. I just gave up trying to be good because I couldn't be. I also didn't like the guilt I felt or the expectation that God would punish me for not being "good". Now that I'm accepted by God just as I am, without having to perform "works", I'm truly liberated. Now I WANT to serve Him. Now I WANT to go to church and worship. Now I WANT to do things that please Him.
No one mentions that if the Pope is supposed to be closest to God of all people on Earth, the way the pedophile scandals were handled by him were less than satisfactory. If he is the head of the church, he should is responsible for how the issue was handled. I believe the way it was handled was lacking. This is definitely a black mark on the Catholic church. The whole world was watching and the corruption in the church was revealed for all to see. It only added to the anti-Christian attitude of the world.
The differences in doctrine that you list above can mostly be settled by reading the Bible. Some of the practices listed are direct contradictions to Biblical teaching. I would stay away from those denominations. If they are minor doctrinal differences than there's really not much of a problem. This is why I DON'T belong to any denomination. I'm just a child of God.
However, the Roman Catholic church teaches doctrine that is anti-Biblical. Some examples:
-Purgatory isn't mentioned in the Bible
-Peter wasn't the first Pope (he was rebuked by Paul in regard to specific practices in one instance) and the other disciples didn't defer all doctrinal questions to his authority
-we don't need to confess our sins to priests
-Mary wasn't conceived without sin (immaculate conception) nor did she remain a virgin
-all Christians are declared to be saints
-infant baptism is meaningless; babies can't declare faith in Jesus Christ
-possessing statues (even religious ones) are specifically forbidden in the Ten Commandments
-we're saved by faith alone (witness the thief on the cross),
-et al.
There is also a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine that is just based on tradition, or others that are just plain superstition. And we Protestants are labeled as unsophisticated Bible-thumpers or fanatics.
Catholics aren't encouraged to read the Bible- they get their doctrine from the Cathechism. Why is that?
I know what Roman Catholicism did in my life and how others in my family are being held back in their spiritual walk with God because they follow the traditions of the Catholic church and don't really have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I pray each day that they would see the witness I have for the Lord Jesus Christ and would want to find out how they can possess what I have.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 5:17:01 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
Long live Pope Benedict XVI !
I hope the name is a nod to Benedict XV, representing a tempering of position. Yes it is GoodMe.This from a man slightly right of John Paul II.I was well pleased with John Paul II and well pleased with this choice.
me in red.
edited to change color
< Message edited by divinemercy -- 4/19/2005 5:19:19 PM >
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 5:29:19 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: beachpjs
Everyone should watch the movie "Luther".
Dear beachpjs,
Why, it didn't do a very good job of portraying anyone, especially Luther.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
Rofl...you`re such a card sdaw.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/19/2005 6:06:55 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: beachpjs
Everyone should watch the movie "Luther".
Dear beachpjs,
Why, it didn't do a very good job of portraying anyone, especially Luther.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
Rofl...you`re such a card sdaw.
Dear divinemercy,
That's why they call me the joker (among other things)
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 8:50:58 AM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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Catholic's will disagree but the office of Pope, as it now exists, is a product of man not God. The "Rock" is Peter's statement of faith, not man himself. In the early Church there was a Bishop in Rome that was considered "first among equals" but he had no real authority over the other Bishops. The increasing claim to that came over time as Rome was the seat of government and power. He eventually exerted that growing power by excommunicating the other four Patriarchs over the issue of the Filioque. They of course did not recognize that authority and promptly returned the gesture. After that split in 1054 the west and east went their own ways. The west developed new doctrines, including Papal infallibility, which the east (Orthodox Church) does not recognize. The job of the Bishops(and Pope) is to guide the church, spread the faith and guard against heresies. I think all that is fairly accurate but simple explanation.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 11:10:33 AM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
Catholic's will disagree but the office of Pope, as it now exists, is a product of man not God. The "Rock" is Peter's statement of faith, not man himself.
Good call, I disagree.
The meaning you imply is taught, I am aware, by some who need to have Scripture mean this. The interpretation in this manner may be possible, but it is not very likely. Considering the Aramiac construction of this exchange, in addition to the Greek, and noting a fondness for "word play" by our Savior (i. e., the whole "anothen" - "born again/born from above" word play), I have to subscribe to the belief that Jesus was referring to Peter the person, whom God Graced with the first revelation of who Jesus really was. This is symbolic of God continuing to Grace the Church with a Faith that is being revealed (not "has been revealed").
When I hear hoof beats, I think "horses", not "unicorns".
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 11:40:15 AM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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This has been a point of discussion for many decades and both sides have reasons to defend their stance. But like many things in the Bible it can be interpreted both ways and there is no way to empirically prove one right and the other wrong. It's a matter of who you wish to believe or your own personal interpretation. Here is an excerpt from another web site that was written by an Orthodox Priest.
QUESTION:
Could you explain how the Orthodox interpret the "On this Rock I will build my church" scripture. I am not asking this with regard to papal
claims but, rather, to discover whether Jesus is referring to Peter, to Himself, or in some way to both.
ANSWER:
In Matthew 16:18, the word "rock" refers to Peter's confession of faith, and not to Peter himself, despite the fact that Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic [petros] and Greek [petra].
As we read in 1 Corinthians 10:4, "...they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ," Who alone is the very foundation, or true Rock, upon which stands the Church. It is on Jesus Christ, the Rock, that the Church's unchanging faith and confession is firmly rooted.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 12:53:50 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
This has been a point of discussion for many decades and both sides have reasons to defend their stance. But like many things in the Bible it can be interpreted both ways and there is no way to empirically prove one right and the other wrong. It's a matter of who you wish to believe or your own personal interpretation.
Amen to this. Its why a website like this one exists - to discuss, explore and defend.
I concede that discussing Peter the person versus Peter's Faith is semantics. It begs the question "what is 'person'?" (we are what we do, we are what we are capable of, we are what we believe, etc. etc.)
What I believe I am clear on is the value of assistance in the discernment of Scriptures for those of us with a more secular makeup to our existence. Thank God for those people of all Faiths who submit to and complete the training and study required to assist people like me in this endeavor. I will always caution against the practice of untested, unscrutinized, unchallenged, unscoped discernment by singular believers.
On that, I am clear, in my case.
Dear GoodMe,
Why must it always be either/or? Is it not sometimes both/and?
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 12:57:07 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
This has been a point of discussion for many decades and both sides have reasons to defend their stance. But like many things in the Bible it can be interpreted both ways and there is no way to empirically prove one right and the other wrong. It's a matter of who you wish to believe or your own personal interpretation.
Amen to this. Its why a website like this one exists - to discuss, explore and defend.
I concede that discussing Peter the person versus Peter's Faith is semantics. It begs the question "what is 'person'?" (we are what we do, we are what we are capable of, we are what we believe, etc. etc.)
What I believe I am clear on is the value of assistance in the discernment of Scriptures for those of us with a more secular makeup to our existence. Thank God for those people of all Faiths who submit to and complete the training and study required to assist people like me in this endeavor. I will always caution against the practice of untested, unscrutinized, unchallenged, unscoped discernment by singular believers.
On that, I am clear, in my case.
Yes I agree with all that. Scripture is to be interpreted by and through the Church, not by individuals. And that's where the Protestants get into trouble and I should know because I was once Baptist. I get great comfort from being able to rely on the Church to guide me and not having to depend on my own flawed judgement.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 5:05:15 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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Why must it always be either/or? Is it not sometimes both/and?
I have read somewhere an explanation of how it can be looked at that way. Can't remember how it was stated and am probably too dense to get it anyway. I believe it was on some Catholic web site.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 5:34:04 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: bettyg51
quote:
Thats not very nice.
If it said specifically in the bible that we need a pope, then I would agree that we need one. Since it does not, then we don't.
Why do we need a pope?
The following examples are based on "general" Protestant beliefs:
* The Lutheran Church believes in baptismal regeneration; the Baptist church does not.
* The Assembly of God denomination uses instrumental music during worship; the Church of Christ denomination believes instrumental music to be unbiblical.
* Presbyterians believe in unconditional atonement and irresistible grace; Methodists reject the two beliefs.
* The Lutheran church believes that worship should be liturgical; the Assembly of God church does not.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism should be administered by complete immersion only; Presbyterians believe pouring is acceptable.
* Methodists believe in the Trinity; Oneness Pentecostals do not.
* Lutherans affirms the fact that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life; Baptists reject this belief and say that Mary had other children.
* The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism is necessary for salvation; the Baptist Church does not.
* The Methodist church accepts female ministers; the Baptist church rejects female ministers as unbiblical.
* Episcopalians baptize infants; Pentecostals believe infant baptism to be invalid.
* The Baptist Church teaches that once a person is saved; he is always saved and cannot fall from grace. The Church of Christ rejects this teaching as unscriptural.
With all these contradictory beliefs, there remains one common thing all these Protestants denominations believe. That is Sola Scriptura (the Bible and the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith). Although the above list is a "generalization" (for example not all Baptists are opposed to female ministers), it is accurate enough to demonstrate the result of sola scriptura. Is it not odd that all these Protestant Churches base their beliefs on the same Bible, yet their beliefs differ in so many ways? Some final questions:
Does the truth matter? See Galatians 1:8-9 "...if anyone preaches a gospel to you other than the one you received, let a curse be upon him!" Yes! It does!
How does anyone know what is the truth? See 1 Timothy 3:15 "...if I should be delayed you will know what kind of conduct befits a member of God's household, the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." What church existed in 33 A.D. and which one still teaches the same doctrines? Study the history of Christianity by reading a book called Early Church Fathers and you will see this church is the Catholic Church.
Betty G.
Then of course there are those of us who can't stand having to subscribe to a man made theology or doctrine or church "guidline" and I'd be hard pressed to find a single church in the ones listed above where I didn't think there was something man made about the way they practice the organization of their service.
*whew*
So, for those of us who go to a church of NO denomination...WE don't feel WE need a Pope.
Those that claim no denomation , if they attend any church service, is there no pastor or leader? Someone to tend the flock like Scripture says? Elders and Bishops and Teachers are all confirmed in Scripture. Authority within the church is taught and explainded. They are for our benefit.
Do those that go to nondenomation churches have any beliefs (doctrines) in common? If there is no singleness of mind, then their is only chaos.
And to those that claim a protestant denomination, they all have from their start men that have laid perscripted doctrines (dogmas) that those who enjoin them to those churches subscribe to.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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