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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 2:03:56 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
Allowing Cardinal Law (Boston) to conduct a Mass just prior to the election of a new Pope, shows a total lack of understanding of the dilemma Catholics are facing in North America. The Vatican just doesn't get it!
Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.
Jesus spoke, I get it.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 2:11:13 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
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quote:
[Original post deleted for violating TOS #6]
May God in His infinite mercy forgive you as I just have done for that statement.
< Message edited by BenQuebec -- 4/21/2005 2:40:45 PM >
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 5:08:06 PM
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son_of_angels
Posts: 7
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I think people today are extremely fooled, even the last pope, into believing that a reconciliation with the "Eastern Orthodox" church has not already occurred. In many places, as the Maronites, entire church bodies have reunited with the Holy Catholic Church, believing fully in the doctrine of papal infallibility and the succession of St. Peter. In other places, as with Eastern Catholics, whole groups of the faithful, with some bishops, have been reconciled and organized under the banner of faithful, Rome-appointed patriarchs, existing under their own rite (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostrom) and their own canon law. Clearly, I also pray for reconciliation, but only in the sense that the Eastern Orthodox, in those areas where there are such dioceses, gather under fully CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX bishops in union with Rome, or that their own bishops come under the doctrine of papal infallibility, or that they become Latin Rite Catholics in those nations where it is available. Anything else is a false ecumenism that is not worth the Holy Catholic Church's time.
Long live Benedict XVI, Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, Ruler of the World!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 6:23:09 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: son_of_angels
I think people today are extremely fooled, even the last pope, into believing that a reconciliation with the "Eastern Orthodox" church has not already occurred. In many places, as the Maronites, entire church bodies have reunited with the Holy Catholic Church, believing fully in the doctrine of papal infallibility and the succession of St. Peter. In other places, as with Eastern Catholics, whole groups of the faithful, with some bishops, have been reconciled and organized under the banner of faithful, Rome-appointed patriarchs, existing under their own rite (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostrom) and their own canon law. Clearly, I also pray for reconciliation, but only in the sense that the Eastern Orthodox, in those areas where there are such dioceses, gather under fully CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX bishops in union with Rome, or that their own bishops come under the doctrine of papal infallibility, or that they become Latin Rite Catholics in those nations where it is available. Anything else is a false ecumenism that is not worth the Holy Catholic Church's time.
Long live Benedict XVI, Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, Ruler of the World!
I guess you believe resistance if futile and that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one (Trek speak), but we Orthodox few, comparitively speaking - 1/4 professing Christians rather than 1/2, though our numbers are growing - still exist and will resist!
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 8:15:21 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: son_of_angels
I think people today are extremely fooled, even the last pope, into believing that a reconciliation with the "Eastern Orthodox" church has not already occurred. In many places, as the Maronites, entire church bodies have reunited with the Holy Catholic Church, believing fully in the doctrine of papal infallibility and the succession of St. Peter. In other places, as with Eastern Catholics, whole groups of the faithful, with some bishops, have been reconciled and organized under the banner of faithful, Rome-appointed patriarchs, existing under their own rite (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostrom) and their own canon law. Clearly, I also pray for reconciliation, but only in the sense that the Eastern Orthodox, in those areas where there are such dioceses, gather under fully CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX bishops in union with Rome, or that their own bishops come under the doctrine of papal infallibility, or that they become Latin Rite Catholics in those nations where it is available. Anything else is a false ecumenism that is not worth the Holy Catholic Church's time.
Long live Benedict XVI, Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, Ruler of the World!
Dear son,
If one reads the guidelines for receiving Holy Communion found in every missalette, The Catholic Church does not object to the Orthodox receiving Communion, although they are urged to repect the dicipline of their own church. I think it safe to say that the Catholic Church regards the Orthodox Churches as fully catholic and orthodox as she herself, despite some very different takes on things. Whatever real unity that can be achieved among Christians is worth everybody's time, and is Christ's own prayer. If "catholic" and "orthodox" have been hijacked, it has been by the extreme wings of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 9:23:11 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: son_of_angels
I think people today are extremely fooled, even the last pope, into believing that a reconciliation with the "Eastern Orthodox" church has not already occurred. In many places, as the Maronites, entire church bodies have reunited with the Holy Catholic Church, believing fully in the doctrine of papal infallibility and the succession of St. Peter. In other places, as with Eastern Catholics, whole groups of the faithful, with some bishops, have been reconciled and organized under the banner of faithful, Rome-appointed patriarchs, existing under their own rite (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostrom) and their own canon law. Clearly, I also pray for reconciliation, but only in the sense that the Eastern Orthodox, in those areas where there are such dioceses, gather under fully CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX bishops in union with Rome, or that their own bishops come under the doctrine of papal infallibility, or that they become Latin Rite Catholics in those nations where it is available. Anything else is a false ecumenism that is not worth the Holy Catholic Church's time.
Long live Benedict XVI, Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, Ruler of the World!
There are no true Orthodox Churches under Roman control. The so called Easter Rite or Uniate are not the same as the real Orthodox Church. They are few in number and are not in communion with the Orthodox Church. I'm pretty sure we recognize that the Pope has Apostolic Succession but will absolutely never accept Papal Infallibility or authority.
Here is something I found:
the Orthodox view and attitude of the Roman Papacy is not a matter of refusing to accept the authority of the Pope but, rather, a matter of historic reality. The bottom line is that, during its 2000 year existence, the Orthodox Church had not been subject to the administrative authority of the Pope of Rome, and this is borne out in the extant decrees of the early Church councils. These councils, while acknowledging the Pope as the "first among equals," in no way envision the Bishop of Rome's "primacy of honor" as a "supremacy of jurisdiction." The papal claims to supremacy are of much later origin, and there are many who would argue that such claims have done far more damage to the unity of Christendom than anything else. [If one looks at the hundreds upon hundreds of Protestant groups that grew out of Roman Catholicism -- there is little parallel here within Orthodox Christianity -- one might also question the papacy as a point of unity.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:18:45 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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"superdave,"
Thankfully, you still willingly admit to the possibility of error, being as you are a relatively new convert to the EOC. I appreciate your honesty.
But then you continued....
quote:
There are no true Orthodox Churches under Roman control. The so called Easter Rite or Uniate are not the same as the real Orthodox Church. They are few in number and are not in communion with the Orthodox Church. I'm pretty sure we recognize that the Pope has Apostolic Succession but will absolutely never accept Papal Infallibility or authority.
Did someone say there are any members of the EOC under the authority of the Pope? I didn't notice that. If I'm mistaken, please point me to a specific post. Thanks.
Hypothetically, what if your Patriarch felt differently than you do? Would you obey or rebel? Do you actually HAVE a Patriarch?
To be perfectly honest, and not meaning to offend my EOC friends here....sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between EOC converts and the evangelical roots they claim to have forsaken.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:27:16 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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In other words, Superdave,
Is there any way to distinguish which EOC are TRULY EOC? Do you, personally, acknowledge the Ecumenical Patriarch as an "ecumenical patriarch," or do you scorn him as much as other EOC do?
Where is the "seat of unity" spoken of by the Early Church Fathers when it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy?
Curious,
Michael
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:52:11 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Last one tonight...I promise.
Superdave,
Are you aware of the numerous times the East appealed to the West to settle matters of dispute? Do you actually believe the disputed claims that Constantinople was an Apostolic See settled by St. Andrew are true? Have you ever considered the fact that it might just have been a nicer place to settle for Constantine? And, isn't it true the EOC made him a saint? Why?
I miss Unworthyseraphim. Perhaps l need to regroup.
Pax,
Michael
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 8:02:10 AM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
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I think in an earlier post someone claimed some Orthodox Churches are under the authority of the Pope, but maybe I misread.
The Orthodox Church in America, to which I belong, has a metropolitan nit a Patriarch. But we are in communion with the other Churches and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the spiritual leader of the church. We consider all the churches in communion as one church, so there is unity. There are some, such as ROCOR, that are not in communion for various reasons.
I'm not sure what you mean by the east appealing to the west to settle disputes. What were the disputes? Only relatively recently have the two really even talked to each other and the Catholic Church has a different viewpoint of the situation than we do.
Yes I would follow the Bishop if the Churches were to reunite, but as it will never happen it's not something I have thought about.
There will always be problems in the church as longs as people are involved (we are not infallible) but leaving is unacceptable, creating a schism is a great sin.
As I stated previously I could be wrong on any of this so you might want to do some research on the web. It's been a long time since I did the research for myself and I've forgotton most of what I read. Bottom line was I found the Orthodox Church's claims to be more believable then the others and the teachings to be those of the early Church.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 8:11:21 AM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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I miss him as well. Not too many Orthodox visit these types of forums, and for good reason. I don't think it serves any real purpose to be here.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 8:45:24 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
I miss him as well. Not too many Orthodox visit these types of forums, and for good reason. I don't think it serves any real purpose to be here.
Dear superdave,
Honest dialog is always better than quiet animosity. Or even not so quiet. After a while, it humanizes one's opponent. That way one talks to persons, not ideas. It works in marriages, why not in churches?
On the Feast of Persian Martyrs
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 8:52:18 AM
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Konstantinos
Posts: 6233
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Greece Thessaloniki
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To simply say that the pope isn't christian at all I implore you. How is the pope chosen? From God? No; people choose him. And the proof is the holy fire/light that comes from a cave in Jerusalem now in Easter. I've heard that only orthodox(and I suppose REAL orthodox) priests can only get this fire. I've heard that whenever catholics or protestants tried to, the fire left. You may not have heard of this, but here is the "deal". There is this cave in Jerusalem in which one or two days before Easter(for reasons that I do not know) , I've heard that there is a fire that flies(literally) in this cave and when the priests goes in there the fire goes on his candle and lights it. Anyway, there isn't scripture about this, but as far as I know(not much), this has been happening for a "tradition" in the orthodox church for as far as I know.
Someone said about Peter, and that Jesus said that Peter would build the church and lead it. As far as I'm concerned, perhaps Jesus didn't mean as much in these verses as people think. Perhaps Peter would only build the first churches and that would be all. And Peter was one of Jesus' student, so if he was meant to lead the church for as long as he lived, well perhaps that too, but that has now passed so it doesn't concern us. The point is, no matter what Jesus meant, He certainly didn't ever imply a pope. I don't really know much history about the catholic church, but I suppose that either the first popes were really "popes", but not the arrogant, boasting, and heretic popes we have today, or the first popes, and most of them until now, were doing it just to have authority and power, and generally just fell into the same trap satan fell; lust for power.
The idea of a pope is on its own boasting, arrogant, "lusty" for power, and generally satanic, and like the idea of the pope, so is any kind of heretic ideas. satanic.
I would only be convinced for such heretic things, if scripture proved I was wrong.
_____________________________
i can pick you up off the floor and put you over my head
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 10:24:17 AM
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ServeGod
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This is the basis for the Church and the Pope, is it not.
Remember Jesus was a practicing Jew and always obeyed the laws of the church. I think he understood the need of a church institution.
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mathew 16 17-19
18] You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 ("Peter"). It is translated as Petros ("Peter") in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock." Church: this word (Greek ekklesia) occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice). There are several possibilities for an Aramaic original. Jesus' church means the community that he will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld (Greek Hades, the abode of the dead) is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death.
The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the key of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts" (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 10:41:45 AM
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ServeGod
Posts: 6
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The idea of a pope is on its own boasting, arrogant, "lusty" for power, and generally satanic, and like the idea of the pope, so is any kind of heretic ideas. satanic.
Is this how you view your own church leaders?
I do not think that JPII was satanic.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 4:10:55 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lord_Storm
And the proof is the holy fire/light that comes from a cave in Jerusalem now in Easter. I've heard that only orthodox(and I suppose REAL orthodox) priests can only get this fire. I've heard that whenever catholics or protestants tried to, the fire left. You may not have heard of this, but here is the "deal". There is this cave in Jerusalem in which one or two days before Easter(for reasons that I do not know) , I've heard that there is a fire that flies(literally) in this cave and when the priests goes in there the fire goes on his candle and lights it. Anyway, there isn't scripture about this, but as far as I know(not much), this has been happening for a "tradition" in the orthodox church for as far as I know.
Dear Lord Storm,
I believe you are referring to the Holy Fire which occurs Holy Saturday night in Jerusalem at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher which is built over the burial place of Jesus. Here are some pictures of it:
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/video.htm
And here's a description:
http://www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/miracle.htm
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 5:41:02 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
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quote:
Dear Lord Storm,
I believe you are referring to the Holy Fire which occurs Holy Saturday night in Jerusalem at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher which is built over the burial place of Jesus. Here are some pictures of it:
The Holy Fire is truly remarkable. Thanks for posting those links.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 7:43:08 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Lord Storm says :
quote:
I don't really know much history about the catholic church, but I suppose that either the first popes were really "popes", but not the arrogant, boasting, and heretic popes we have today,
quote:
The idea of a pope is on its own boasting, arrogant, "lusty" for power, and generally satanic, and like the idea of the pope, so is any kind of heretic ideas. satanic.
The Popes are not satanic nor heretic Lurker!
I do forgive you for your untame tongue.
edited to afix the quotes to the member who really said them.
< Message edited by divinemercy -- 4/23/2005 3:25:19 AM >
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 8:32:21 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
lurker says :
quote:
I don't really know much history about the catholic church, but I suppose that either the first popes were really "popes", but not the arrogant, boasting, and heretic popes we have today,
quote:
The idea of a pope is on its own boasting, arrogant, "lusty" for power, and generally satanic, and like the idea of the pope, so is any kind of heretic ideas. satanic.
The Popes are not satanic nor heretic Lurker!
I do forgive you for your untame tongue.
*confused look*
Where did I say that??
That's not my post!
Viva il Papa!
< Message edited by Lurker -- 4/22/2005 8:44:09 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 9:00:22 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
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The word says:
Some seek signs, some seek wonders, and more,
but we preach:
The Cross.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 10:26:14 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
The word says:
Some seek signs, some seek wonders, and more,
but we preach:
The Cross.
Grace and Peace
Dear Deborah,
That is just what the popes do.
On the Feast of the Persian Martyrs
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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