quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

Jes,

Icons and Crucifixes depict true events. Icons of Mary holding Jesus demonstrate His Incarnation, there are many icons of His life including His baptism, the wedding of Cana, the triumphal entry, the Last Supper, and His Resurrection. To see them automatically recalls these events to mind so that we may have His whole life realized in us to a fuller extent. We don't just read the passages in the Bible about His Resurrection and Ascension, we read the whole thing, and we do have empty crosses too. But His Crucifixion demonstrates His love for us and humbles me every time I look at it to see what our salvation cost. To kiss these depictions communicates in a physical way our adoration for Christ's whole life, and His continuous life in His Saints.

Having a crucifix in your house or church in of itself, I don't believe it is idolatry. You are right, the crucifix is a sign of our salvation. But I see so many people kissing them and bowing down to them as if they were Jesus Himself, and that is not good.


1 John 5:20
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

In the 1st century church, the people had a sign already to identify themselves as Christians, the fish, symbolizing fishers of men, but did they bow down to the fish and worship it? No.

Yours in Jesus Chrsit,
Jessica

Jesklu,

What about using words as a form of idol worship (flattery).

PeterD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

Jes,

Icons and Crucifixes depict true events. Icons of Mary holding Jesus demonstrate His Incarnation, there are many icons of His life including His baptism, the wedding of Cana, the triumphal entry, the Last Supper, and His Resurrection. To see them automatically recalls these events to mind so that we may have His whole life realized in us to a fuller extent. We don't just read the passages in the Bible about His Resurrection and Ascension, we read the whole thing, and we do have empty crosses too. But His Crucifixion demonstrates His love for us and humbles me every time I look at it to see what our salvation cost. To kiss these depictions communicates in a physical way our adoration for Christ's whole life, and His continuous life in His Saints.

Having a crucifix in your house or church in of itself, I don't believe it is idolatry. You are right, the crucifix is a sign of our salvation. But I see so many people kissing them and bowing down to them as if they were Jesus Himself, and that is not good.


1 John 5:20
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

In the 1st century church, the people had a sign already to identify themselves as Christians, the fish, symbolizing fishers of men, but did they bow down to the fish and worship it? No.

Yours in Jesus Chrsit,
Jessica

Jesklu,

What about using words as a form of idol worship (flattery).

PeterD

When people use the Word of God to speak evil against True Christians to make themselves look good and wise, yes, that is a form of idolatry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

Jes,

Icons and Crucifixes depict true events. Icons of Mary holding Jesus demonstrate His Incarnation, there are many icons of His life including His baptism, the wedding of Cana, the triumphal entry, the Last Supper, and His Resurrection. To see them automatically recalls these events to mind so that we may have His whole life realized in us to a fuller extent. We don't just read the passages in the Bible about His Resurrection and Ascension, we read the whole thing, and we do have empty crosses too. But His Crucifixion demonstrates His love for us and humbles me every time I look at it to see what our salvation cost. To kiss these depictions communicates in a physical way our adoration for Christ's whole life, and His continuous life in His Saints.

Having a crucifix in your house or church in of itself, I don't believe it is idolatry. You are right, the crucifix is a sign of our salvation. But I see so many people kissing them and bowing down to them as if they were Jesus Himself, and that is not good.


1 John 5:20
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

In the 1st century church, the people had a sign already to identify themselves as Christians, the fish, symbolizing fishers of men, but did they bow down to the fish and worship it? No.

Yours in Jesus Chrsit,
Jessica

Jesklu,

What about using words as a form of idol worship (flattery).

PeterD

When people use the Word of God to speak evil against True Christians to make themselves look good and wise, yes, that is a form of idolatry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

But I did grow up in the Catholic Church and they believe they can attain salvation by asking Mary to pray for them.

quote:

The Catholics are doing the same thing the Pharisees did when Jesus rebuked them from hindering the little children from coming unto Him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Hello Ps103!

True Christians are as defined. Those who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives from sin and death, who are baptized, who believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, (without error), and those who act the truth out by doing what it says.


Where does this definition come from?

Why do YOU get to define what a true Christian is and yet criticize the Catholic Church for doing just that when it canonizes saints?

Do you make your assessment according to how a person "act(s) out the truth by doing what it [the Bible] says" or by what is in their heart? Is a Christian "saved"? If so, then isn't acting out the truth by DOING what the Bible says - works? Salvation by WORKS?

In fact, your whole definition consists of things done or not done to be a Christian. I'm surpised.

I myself believe Jeus is my Lord and my God, and that He has saved me from sin and death. Am I perfect? No. Do I act out the bible perfectly? No. But because of the Blood of Jesus Christ, I am saved. My hope is in Him alone. There is no other name under heaven or earth that one must be saved. But I did grow up in the Catholic Church and they believe they can attain salvation by asking Mary to pray for them. And part of praying to Mary is praying through her statues to Mary, as though the statues were Mary herself. All of this, what they do, is entirely in contradiction to what Jesus said himself. Jesus did what the Father gave Him to do, but the Church, in everything they do, is more idol worship than worshipping the Lord Jesus Himself.

Have you studied, or at least looked up what the "hierarchy of beliefs" are in the Catholic Church? If you grew up in the Catholic Church, then this is something you should know.

You should also know that the Church does not teach salvation through anyone but Jesus. If you continue to state that it does, as does your mentor, Ezra, then I will be forced to call it what it is - a lie. I don't do that lightly, nor in anger or disrespect. It is my hope that you just don't understand, not that you continue to misrepresent or mistate the truth.

I, too, have grown up in the Catholic Church, and was"saved" in the Catholic Church. I have never worshipped Mary, nor do I know anyone who worships Mary. Neither can I possibly know whether someone is praying to a statue, to the person it represents, whether that prayer is worship - or whether that prayer is petition. I would have to know that person's heart and thoughts to make that assessment.

Do you have the ability to make that assessment? Or are you going by your own sense of righteousness. Why do you judge all those people?

Have there been excesses? Of course. Perhaps you might want to go and check history to see how the Church dealt with them. But excess and superstition on the part of individuals, or even groups does not mean it is Church teaching or doctrine.

So, if YOU know people who worship Mary, it does not mean that because they do, that it is a Church teaching, nor that all Catholics do this.

To stretch this assumption into a sweeping indictment of the Church as idol worshipping just doesn't make sense.

Here's a link you might want to look at, there are better or more complete answers - this is a start.

http://www.dwightlongenecker.com/Content/Pages/Articles/BitsAndPieces/Idols.asp


I find myself as being of a more true Christian than before. Am I saying I was never a Christian? No. Because I do believe Catholics are Christians, but I was deceived, and the Word of God is being withheld from most of them. The Catholics are doing the same thing the Pharisees did when Jesus rebuked them from hindering the little children from coming unto Him.

How is it being withheld?

Have you been to the Catholic bookstores? They are chock full of Bibles, even Protestant ones. They are full of Commentaries and study aids. How about Bible Study? My Parish has Bible study almost everyday of the week, for everything from divorced Catholics to Singles or Widowed. One group I attend studies in light of everything from Wellhausen to the Jesus Project, critically and analytically. Other study groups are more prayer in addition to study.

Have you ever gone to Mass?

The one of very first things you see in the processional is the Word of God.

Then because repentance and confession is integral to salvation we pray thusly:

I confess to Almighty God,
and to you here present,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you here present
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

GASP! Mary's name was mentioned, and the Angels and Saints!

Is that Worship? Or Petition?

Following that communal confession the priest leads us in the Kyrie:

"Lord have mercy",
"Christ have mercy",
"Lord have mercy"

Then we have the Liturgy of THE WORD

A reading from the Old Testament, or Acts of the Apostles, or Revelation is presented.

Then we a Psalm is read and we respond in singing from the Psalm.

In some Masses more than one Psalm is read, and sometimes as many as a dozen, or more.

This is followed by a reading from one of the Epistles.

We then Acclaim the Gospel singing Alleluia as we welcome the Word. The Gospel is then read by the priest and it's followed by a homily as to how that applies to our lives, or a teaching on what it means.

This is just the first half of the Mass - it is all SCRIPTURE and prayer USING scripture. Look at any missal and you will see the scripture readings for that day.

How is this witholding scripture from the people? Where is this idol worship?

Please show me what the Church does to hinder people from coming to Church or coming to Christ?

Show me, specifically, how the Word of God is witheld from the people ?

May I suggest that the only people who do not receive the Word in the Catholic Church are those who do not want it. May I add, that Protestant denominations and sects, who do not have the Bible withheld do, thump and shake their Bibles, but have an admitted problem with reading it.

Here's another link:
http://www.dwightlongenecker.com/Content/Pages/Articles/Apologetics/WhyDontCatholicsReadTheBible.asp

I have many Christian friends, and there's one on this forum who I will say is a brother in Christ, his name is Ezra. And Ezra might also be able to give you the definition of a true Christian.


Your younger sister in Christ,
Jessica

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

But I did grow up in the Catholic Church and they believe they can attain salvation by asking Mary to pray for them.

I don't know exactly what the RCC believes about this, but do you mean they believe Mary can save them? Or is it more like a sinner asking a Christian to pray for their salvation?

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ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

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ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

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ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

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ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:

Mary was chosen to give birth to God the Word.

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:

Mary was chosen to give birth to God the Word.

I've heard all this 'tradition' stuff before, thank you. How is it my questions don't get answered?

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

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ORIGINAL: ANewhouse

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:

Mary was chosen to give birth to God the Word.

I've heard all this 'tradition' stuff before, thank you. How is it my questions don't get answered?

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:


What answer would you like?

quote:

Or perhaps the question should be; What are you driving at

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: ANewhouse

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:

Mary was chosen to give birth to God the Word.

I've heard all this 'tradition' stuff before, thank you. How is it my questions don't get answered?

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:


What answer would you like?

Three answers in succession from the same 'tradition' poster would be a constructive contribution to debate.

I realise that it was not your suggestion that the parable of the tax-collector and the Pharisee is somehow relevant, but surely you have some idea about which of these two men Mary resembled.

quote:

Or perhaps the question should be; What are you driving at

Surely you can remember why you jumped in?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ANewhouse

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ORIGINAL: Prado

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ORIGINAL: ANewhouse

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ORIGINAL: Prado

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prado

So Mary is the Christian, and the Catholic is the sinner?

I could be wrong, but I think Catholics believe they're sinners like the Publican admitted, rather than boast like the Pharisee did.

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:

Mary was chosen to give birth to God the Word.

I've heard all this 'tradition' stuff before, thank you. How is it my questions don't get answered?

So what did Mary do? Behave like the publican?

quote:


What answer would you like?

Three answers in succession from the same 'tradition' poster would be a constructive contribution to debate.

I realise that it was not your suggestion that the parable of the tax-collector and the Pharisee is somehow relevant, but surely you have some idea about which of these two men Mary resembled.

quote:

Or perhaps the question should be; What are you driving at

Surely you can remember why you jumped in?

How is who Mary resembled relevant to the Worship of statues?

That is what this thread is about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoelNatan

I am no longer with any church because i believe they are all in error but my father is a espiscapalien priest, once i brought to his attention that he was in direct violation with scripture by having others call him Father..he then the next day brought me some tract about paul being called father in scripture is anyone familiar with that kind of defence

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ORIGINAL: YoelNatan

thanks for the link, but it made reference to (Gal. 4:19). "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" in which the key word being christ Formed in you..once someone is led to the lord they are no longer in need of his parenting..they can boldly go to the throne..
another thing not explained is putting yourself under that priest spiritual authority when Christ is our priest...I know catholics are very devout and beautiful people but they are not the only ones under priesthood, many other denomanations use litergical practices and it is just another sign that just as the seven churches in Rev that no longer exist today..our denomanations are in total rebelion to God's Word

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ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim

What did Mary do? Well to begin whereas the first Eve's no to God brought sin and death in to the world, the second Eve's yes to God brought forth the Life of the world. She was the culmination of the whole human race, the one person all God's interaction with humanity was designed to bring forth...the woman whose Son would bruise the head of the Serpant and be the Savior of the world.

That makes for a real good start. Of course I'm not sure exactly how this present line of questioning engages the OP any longer?

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ORIGINAL: Papa-san

quote:

ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim

What did Mary do? Well to begin whereas the first Eve's no to God brought sin and death in to the world, the second Eve's yes to God brought forth the Life of the world. She was the culmination of the whole human race, the one person all God's interaction with humanity was designed to bring forth...the woman whose Son would bruise the head of the Serpant and be the Savior of the world.

That makes for a real good start. Of course I'm not sure exactly how this present line of questioning engages the OP any longer?

Are you going to focus on the orange, or on the peel?

I see Mary staues all over the place. It's pretty easy to see that by even instituting all this unbiblical awe over Mary that a door was opened that shouldn't have been, and it's created a lot of division that should never have begun.

In my experience, images representing Mary outnumber those of Jesus by FAR.