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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 9:01:17 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1554
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Have you ever asked someone at your church to pray for you? If so, why? After all, you can go right to God yourself.
NO I don't. If I have a need I bring it DIRECTLY to God through the ONE AND ONLY mediator, Jesus Christ!
I may ask a friend to pray WITH me...In agreement. Not FOR me.
And since dead people, even ones in Heaven cannot hear us, why bother?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 11:43:37 AM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Have you ever asked someone at your church to pray for you? If so, why? After all, you can go right to God yourself.
NO I don't. If I have a need I bring it DIRECTLY to God through the ONE AND ONLY mediator, Jesus Christ!
I may ask a friend to pray WITH me...In agreement. Not FOR me.
And since dead people, even ones in Heaven cannot hear us, why bother?
Of course, we ask the saints to pray with us as well. It is not an either/or thing. Who said the saints are dead?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 12:08:22 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1033
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quote:
Of course, we ask the saints to pray with us as well. It is not an either/or thing. Who said the saints are dead?
... medical science, common sense, and the Bible itself?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 1:19:35 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Of course, we ask the saints to pray with us as well. It is not an either/or thing. Who said the saints are dead?
Where does it say they can even hear you?
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 2:35:05 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This is a thread for discussing the topic of praying to saints and/or to Mary.
It is a violation of our Terms of Service to use our board to offer prayers to anyone other than a member of the Godhead.
One may QUOTE a prayer in this thread for the sake of discussing the prayer in the context of this discussion.
One may NOT use our board to ask members to pray to a saint or Mary.
One may NOT use our board to post a prayer to a saint or Mary in this thread for the purpose of PRAYING.
There is a difference between praying in a thread and discussing a prayer in the thread.
Please keep that difference in mind and please keep our rules for how we wish our forum to be used in communicating to God.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 2:57:36 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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I've posted before (and don't feel up to doing it again) the reasons behind why, many faiths pray to the saints. This prayer can not fully be understood until one has experienced it.
And I AM IN NO WAY SAYING ALL HAVE TO (OR SHOULD) OR ASKING ANYONE TO EXPERIENCE IT.
I have found through my own prayers to the Saints a closeness and a love for and from God. These prayers lead us to the Godhead some are so certain we do not know, and they show love and respect for Gods Good and Holy Children and in no way take Glory and Honor away from God.
God Bless,
Mary
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Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 6:20:43 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I dunno. I don't see anything in there that asks him to pass the request along. You address a letter to Bob by saying "Dear Bob", not by saying "Dear Sally" and expecting Sally to somehow pass the letter along to Bob. I disagree.
If you wanted a piece of cake and Bob baked great cakes, but sometimes seemd to be partial to whom he handed out cake, and your friend Sally seemed to get a lot of cake everytime she asked Bob, you might be inclined to ask Sally to tell Bob that you're a huge fan of Bob's cake, and that you really would like some cake too, and that the next time you ask Bob for cake, maybe he could keep that in mind when considering what type of cake and how much cake he was going to give you.
How do I presume this - because the prayers of the righteous are effective.
If Sally's requests to Bob are more effective than mine, I might look to Sally for some help - which may include, in addition to asking her directly, some self-examination as to why her requests to Bob might be more effective than mine.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 4/18/2008 6:40:23 PM >
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 8:52:57 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1554
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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There is no possible way that any dead people can hear us. Especially those in Heaven. If they knew what was going on down here on earth, then the perfect beauty of Heaven would be tainted.
Please...stop wasting prayers on these dead people. The Bible is very clear that JESUS and JESUS alone is our one and only mediator between us and Almighty God!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2008 10:04:44 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 678
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Have you ever asked someone at your church to pray for you? If so, why? After all, you can go right to God yourself.
NO I don't. If I have a need I bring it DIRECTLY to God through the ONE AND ONLY mediator, Jesus Christ!
I may ask a friend to pray WITH me...In agreement. Not FOR me.
Why would you want to contradict the examples in Scripture? We see in Scripture many times where we are told to pray FOR others, and Paul himself often would ask the people in his letters to pray FOR him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1). Are you saying that Paul was wrong?
quote:
And since dead people, even ones in Heaven cannot hear us, why bother?
Odd, I see the saints in heaven as well aware of what goes on down here. Note in Revelation that the martyrs are asking God to avenge them. And how the Lord mentions the hosts of heavens rejoicing over the repentance of a sinner.
And then we have the words of the Lord Himself, "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled." (Mark 12:26-27).
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/19/2008 2:05:19 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1033
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quote:
Note in Revelation that the martyrs are asking God to avenge them.
That's vengeance on people who killed them while they were still alive.
quote:
And how the Lord mentions the hosts of heavens rejoicing over the repentance of a sinner.
That's all good news, and it's the angels, not the saints.
Being alive in heaven does not suggest any knowledge of what's going on on earth.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/19/2008 10:49:25 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 678
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From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Note in Revelation that the martyrs are asking God to avenge them.
That's vengeance on people who killed them while they were still alive.
So they are awake and not asleep. (Goodbye "Soul Sleep")
quote:
quote:
And how the Lord mentions the hosts of heavens rejoicing over the repentance of a sinner.
That's all good news, and it's the angels, not the saints.
Being alive in heaven does not suggest any knowledge of what's going on on earth.
Actually it's the angels AND the saints. It's quite clear.
"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Luke 15:7,10)
Note that there's rejoicing in the presence of angels. The angels are there, but the rejoicing isn't just from them. Yet how could this be? The only explanation seems to be that the saints in heaven are aware of us down here. They are the great cloud of witnesses as spoken of in Heb 12:1, rejoicing when we run the good race.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 2:12:28 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1033
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quote:
So they are awake and not asleep. (Goodbye "Soul Sleep")
Then I suppose it's a good thing that I don't believe in, nor have I ever stated that I'm a proponent of, soul sleep, hmm?
quote:
Actually it's the angels AND the saints. It's quite clear.
"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Luke 15:7,10)
Note that there's rejoicing in the presence of angels. The angels are there, but the rejoicing isn't just from them. Yet how could this be? The only explanation seems to be that the saints in heaven are aware of us down here. They are the great cloud of witnesses as spoken of in Heb 12:1, rejoicing when we run the good race.
Then why doesn't it say saints? Why does it say just angels?
It could be God rejoicing over regaining one of His lost sheep, as so many of Jesus' parables describe the Good Shepherd doing.
The "cloud of witnesses" doesn't have to be dead people. It can be people right here around us, watching us run our race and seeing a testimony through us, just as the testimony was seen through the long list of the faithful in the previous chapter.
I really do think the practice is potentially dangerous.
"When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you." (Deuteronomy 18:9)
Saul was in huge trouble for even asking one of God's own prophets, Samuel, for help, after he was dead. How is asking a saint for help any different?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 3:27:02 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6368
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From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Of course, we ask the saints to pray with us as well. It is not an either/or thing. Who said the saints are dead?
Who says the saints that are prayed too are not in hell?
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 3:31:18 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6368
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From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
I dunno. I don't see anything in there that asks him to pass the request along. You address a letter to Bob by saying "Dear Bob", not by saying "Dear Sally" and expecting Sally to somehow pass the letter along to Bob. I disagree.
If you wanted a piece of cake and Bob baked great cakes, but sometimes seemd to be partial to whom he handed out cake, and your friend Sally seemed to get a lot of cake everytime she asked Bob, you might be inclined to ask Sally to tell Bob that you're a huge fan of Bob's cake, and that you really would like some cake too, and that the next time you ask Bob for cake, maybe he could keep that in mind when considering what type of cake and how much cake he was going to give you.
How do I presume this - because the prayers of the righteous are effective.
If Sally's requests to Bob are more effective than mine, I might look to Sally for some help - which may include, in addition to asking her directly, some self-examination as to why her requests to Bob might be more effective than mine.
God isn't Bob the Baker.... He doesn't have issues and doesn't need help and our prayers by the Holy Spirit not channeled through folks for all anyone knows are burning in hell...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 4:25:49 AM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Then why doesn't it say saints? Why does it say just angels?
Rev 5:8 quote:
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Rev 8:3-4 quote:
Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 8:27:01 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
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quote:
God isn't Bob the Baker.... He doesn't have issues and doesn't need help and our prayers by the Holy Spirit not channeled through folks for all anyone knows are burning in hell... As long as you can look around you, and see that God has graced some more than others, then the analogy is valid.
If you can't see that God graced the Apostles more than the Pharisees, then I am not sure how I can help you out in this discussion...
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 8:29:48 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Who says the saints that are prayed too are not in hell? The efficacy of their prayers says they are not in hell. In order to be Canonized, a Saint's prayers need to be demonstrated to be effective for those who invoke the Saint in their prayers.
Kind of a herring, don't you think? The color would be red...
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 3:09:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
God isn't Bob the Baker.... He doesn't have issues and doesn't need help and our prayers by the Holy Spirit not channeled through folks for all anyone knows are burning in hell... As long as you can look around you, and see that God has graced some more than others, then the analogy is valid.
If you can't see that God graced the Apostles more than the Pharisees, then I am not sure how I can help you out in this discussion...
God's desire to grace on over another doesn't necessitate the need for Him to have prayers channeled through them... He's quite capable of handing things and the task is handled by the Holy Spirit...
You analogy isn't valid since God is complete and not subject to human nature as those you used in your invalid anaogly...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 3:12:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6368
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From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Who says the saints that are prayed too are not in hell? The efficacy of their prayers says they are not in hell. In order to be Canonized, a Saint's prayers need to be demonstrated to be effective for those who invoke the Saint in their prayers.
Kind of a herring, don't you think? The color would be red...
Given that the Roman Catholic Church errors daily for anyone to believe that simply because the Roman Catholic Church declares one a saint that itis so is beyond sound reason...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 5:40:28 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Given that the Roman Catholic Church errors daily for anyone to believe that simply because the Roman Catholic Church declares one a saint that itis so is beyond sound reason... In fact. this is quite logical. If a "Saint" is defined as one who is Canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, then one IS a "Saint" if one is Canonized by the Church.
I am guessing that what you really mean is that just because the Church declares on to be in heaven doesn't make it so. And the you are right - and in 100% agreement with the Church. When someone is Canonized, it means that evidence suggests that this person's prayers are effective, and that their example of living their faith is one to be admired and modeled.
That fact then suggests that they are in heaven, and if we hope to be as well someday, maybe we should look to this Saint as an example in Christian practice and behavior.
Getting back to your sentence - the only one in error is you, by not understanding the practice of the Church regarding the Canonization of Saints and the practice of intercessory prayer.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 6:58:37 PM
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Papa-san
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Even though God forbids it?!? Utterly amazing!
BTW - I haven't heard an answer to my question, and I know I've asked it several times:
How do you know they can even hear you?
Scripture doesn't support the theory that they can...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 7:28:25 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1033
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
The efficacy of their prayers says they are not in hell. In order to be Canonized, a Saint's prayers need to be demonstrated to be effective for those who invoke the Saint in their prayers.
Kind of a herring, don't you think? The color would be red...
But the RCC has de-canonized a number of saints, including the very popular Saint Christopher, who I remember Catholic friends of mine praying to for safety in travels. I guess those prayers hit a dead end...
Safer to pray directly to God, in case the RCC suddenly decides that the saint you like isn't really a saint after all (or even that he did not actually ever exist. Oops.)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 7:28:59 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Even though God forbids it?!? Utterly amazing!
BTW - I haven't heard an answer to my question, and I know I've asked it several times:
How do you know they can even hear you?
Scripture doesn't support the theory that they can...
God forbids people asking someone else to pray for them? Where is that in Scripture, 1st Confusions?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 7:34:35 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 727
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God forbids praying to those who have shuffled off this mortal coil... (AKA - 'have died') That's in Exodus, and Numbers, and Leviticus, and Kings, and Samuel, etc., etc....
You know perfectly well what I meant, and you decided, that because there is no legitimate scriptural basis for this major Catholic practice, that you were going to answer childishly... I am more than a little disappointed in the maturity level there...
And you STILL haven't answered my question! How many times are you going to try the whole "Distract and Divert" strategy??? This is at LEAST the third or fourth time when I have asked this question! Try answering it for a change. (Yes, it will be OK to answer truthfully!)
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/20/2008 7:43:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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