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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 7:57:14 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12146
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From: Here, now
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
God forbids praying to those who have shuffled off this mortal coil... (AKA - 'have died') That's in Exodus, and Numbers, and Leviticus, and Kings, and Samuel, etc., etc....
You know perfectly well what I meant, and you decided, that because there is no legitimate scriptural basis for this major Catholic practice, that you were going to answer childishly... I am more than a little disappointed in the maturity level there...
And you STILL haven't answered my question! How many times are you going to try the whole "Distract and Divert" strategy??? This is at LEAST the third or fourth time when I have asked this question! Try answering it for a change. (Yes, it will be OK to answer truthfully!)
Papa, what you are describing is necromancy, which is seeking information about the future from the dead.
It has been established many times in this thread that this is not what is being discussed here.
Please move on to something else.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 8:56:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Given that the Roman Catholic Church errors daily for anyone to believe that simply because the Roman Catholic Church declares one a saint that itis so is beyond sound reason... In fact. this is quite logical. If a "Saint" is defined as one who is Canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, then one IS a "Saint" if one is Canonized by the Church.
Inside the walls of the church it's logical but beyond that it's wishful thinking...
quote:
I am guessing that what you really mean is that just because the Church declares on to be in heaven doesn't make it so. And the you are right - and in 100% agreement with the Church.
So there is a good chance you're asking people in hell to prayer for you...
quote:
Getting back to your sentence - the only one in error is you, by not understanding the practice of the Church regarding the Canonization of Saints and the practice of intercessory prayer.
I understood the practice enough to ace just about every religion test at my Catholic school...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/20/2008 9:07:44 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Papa, what you are describing is necromancy, which is seeking information about the future from the dead.
It has been established many times in this thread that this is not what is being discussed here.
Please move on to something else.
The mention about Samuel being conjured up could be necromancy. The other mentions are regarding idolatry. Yes, they are regarding ancestors, but it's the same principle. God says don't do it!
Anyways, that was the cat-toy that was supposed to distract us from my original question:
Where in scripture does it show us that these saints can actually hear our prayers?
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 11:35:32 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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Yeah, and I still want to know what happened to all the prayers to de-canonized saints. When my aunt prayed to Saint Christopher for safe travels, did those ever get forwarded to God since Saint Christopher apparently wasn't really a saint, and probably wasn't even a real person? Was there some sort of "We're sorry, but the saint you have prayed is unavailable, please amen and try again" message?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 11:54:37 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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Just one more observation. In John 16:23-24; we read " In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete."
Gee for some odd reason he didn't mentions any saints or his mother in that conversation
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 5:17:56 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 165
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Christopher is still a saint, Zhi. His feast day was removed from the universal calendar, but can optionally be included in local calendars. He wasn't "de-canonized."
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 6:49:55 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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From http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=389
quote:
Vatican City— The Roman Catholic church dropped St. Christopher, the travelers' patron, and more than 40 other saints from its official calendar Friday.
In a separate action it also made optional the commemoration of more than 90 other saints, including St. Nicholas, from whom evolved the Christmas legend of Santa Claus.
Those dropped from the liturgical calendar were removed because of doubt that they ever existed. The action seemed certain to confuse many Catholics who have been venerating them for years.
Thank you for the distinction, but somehow the fact that his feast day was removed because they're not even sure he EXISTED, but they're still telling people they can pray to him because this probably mythological figure is still the patron saint of travellers, is rather worse than I initially even thought.
I'm having enough trouble understanding how dead people can intercede for you in prayers, now you're throwing in that people who most likely never existed can as well?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 8:13:05 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
From http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=389
quote:
Vatican City— The Roman Catholic church dropped St. Christopher, the travelers' patron, and more than 40 other saints from its official calendar Friday.
In a separate action it also made optional the commemoration of more than 90 other saints, including St. Nicholas, from whom evolved the Christmas legend of Santa Claus.
Those dropped from the liturgical calendar were removed because of doubt that they ever existed. The action seemed certain to confuse many Catholics who have been venerating them for years.
Thank you for the distinction, but somehow the fact that his feast day was removed because they're not even sure he EXISTED, but they're still telling people they can pray to him because this probably mythological figure is still the patron saint of travellers, is rather worse than I initially even thought.
I'm having enough trouble understanding how dead people can intercede for you in prayers, now you're throwing in that people who most likely never existed can as well?
I have an idea. Pray to God the Father through Jesus His Son. Then we wont have to later discover down the road that He never even existed and our prayers were in vain. Rather simple, I know, but less chance for error. Just go straight to the source.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/21/2008 11:27:18 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 165
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
I have an idea. Pray to God the Father through Jesus His Son.
This is, in fact, what I do.
I do believe in the Communion of Saints, but have never had the occasion to ask one to pray for me.
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 12:02:22 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 317
Joined: 12/31/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Thank you for the distinction, but somehow the fact that his feast day was removed because they're not even sure he EXISTED, but they're still telling people they can pray to him because this probably mythological figure is still the patron saint of travellers, is rather worse than I initially even thought.
I'm having enough trouble understanding how dead people can intercede for you in prayers, now you're throwing in that people who most likely never existed can as well?
To answer your question about Saint Christopher, he existed. And he's not dead, or at least Christ wouldn't say he's dead. Mat 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!"
From New Advent; The existence of a martyr St. Christopher cannot be denied, as was sufficiently shown by the Jesuit Nicholas Serarius, in his treatise on litanies, "Litaneutici" (Cologne, 1609), and by Molanus in his history of sacred pictures, "De picturis et imaginibus sacris" (Louvain, 1570).
And to answer your question about "decanonization", you have to remember that the canonization process is a relatively new process in Church history. Saints that date from the early years of the Church were not canonized, hence they cannot be "decanonized". And as to what happens to a request for prayer to a person that is not a Saint, the answer is rather simple, nothing. If you think about it, it is similar to what happens when you ask the person sitting in the pew beside you to pray for you. If they are a Christian, they will. If they aren't a Christian, you can be sure they won't bother. But of course, no good Catholic only asks Saints (or possible Saints) to pray for us. We also go straight to God.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 5:38:41 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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The practice of praying to the Saints is as much about reflecting on the partcular graces and virtues given the Saint by God, and hoping for and desiring those same graces from God in ourselves.
If this continues to be beyond comprehension - perhaps your time would be better spent here
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 11:37:08 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 727
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
The practice of praying to the Saints is as much about reflecting on the partcular graces and virtues given the Saint by God, and hoping for and desiring those same graces from God in ourselves.
If this continues to be beyond comprehension - perhaps your time would be better spent here
It isn't beyond comprehension. It is simply inexplicable considering that scripture prohibits the practice. I don't need to act in a manner that idolizes these saints and angers God so that I may reflect upon the particular virtues and graces these people lived by... And if I want to have God put those same qualities in me, I go to God for them, not to others... (Just like He says to!)
Anyway, where does scripture say that these saints can even hear our prayers in the first place?
If that question remains unanswerable, pogo might be the right place for those who cannot answer that question. I don't need to spend time there, because the above question is answered to my satisfaction in the Word that was given to me personally by God Himself!
The fact of the matter is that praying to these saints and Mary is an idolatrous practice. Plain and simple. Heck, if I want to do something that will make God angry with me, I could choose some other activities that might make risking His wrath seem a little more worthwhile...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 11:37:21 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
To answer your question about Saint Christopher, he existed. And he's not dead, or at least Christ wouldn't say he's dead. Mat 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!"
From New Advent; The existence of a martyr St. Christopher cannot be denied, as was sufficiently shown by the Jesuit Nicholas Serarius, in his treatise on litanies, "Litaneutici" (Cologne, 1609), and by Molanus in his history of sacred pictures, "De picturis et imaginibus sacris" (Louvain, 1570).
And to answer your question about "decanonization", you have to remember that the canonization process is a relatively new process in Church history. Saints that date from the early years of the Church were not canonized, hence they cannot be "decanonized". And as to what happens to a request for prayer to a person that is not a Saint, the answer is rather simple, nothing. If you think about it, it is similar to what happens when you ask the person sitting in the pew beside you to pray for you. If they are a Christian, they will. If they aren't a Christian, you can be sure they won't bother. But of course, no good Catholic only asks Saints (or possible Saints) to pray for us. We also go straight to God.
And he really had the head of a dog and was 18 feet tall?
The *Catholic* websites I've read about Saint Christopher state that his feast day was removed because of doubt regarding his actual existence, see http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36 for instance (interestingly they tell you that, and then try to sell you medals of him). I'm afraid you're disagreeing with your own church on this.
quote:
The practice of praying to the Saints is as much about reflecting on the partcular graces and virtues given the Saint by God, and hoping for and desiring those same graces from God in ourselves.
If this continues to be beyond comprehension - perhaps your time would be better spent here
Hmm. Weren't you just complaining about the vitriol and condescension towards Catholics in these various threads? That's a fine piece of ocular lumber you've got there.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 1:59:00 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Hmm. Weren't you just complaining about the vitriol and condescension towards Catholics in these various threads? That's a fine piece of ocular lumber you've got there. The comment (which I thought may have been from someone else, although I can't remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone posted...) was aimed at the strawmen being erected, in particular; I apologize for any lack of clarity.
If you haven't put one up, then it doesn't apply to you...
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 6:25:01 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 94
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
The practice of praying to the Saints ...
...is unbiblical and you will never read an account of God's people in the Old or New Testament praying to a dead prophet, leader or anybody dead.
Communicating with the dead is simply prohibited.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 6:33:11 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 94
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
To answer your question about Saint Christopher, he existed. And he's not dead, or at least Christ wouldn't say he's dead. Mat 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!"
A person who stops breathing and is buried is dead. All the dead saints are dead. Even Jesus was dead for three days. Otherwise he couldn't have resurrected from the dead.
Matt 22:31-32 is about the resurrection of the dead. Who are resurrected? The dead.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 11:33:15 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 317
Joined: 12/31/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL:
And he really had the head of a dog and was 18 feet tall?
The *Catholic* websites I've read about Saint Christopher state that his feast day was removed because of doubt regarding his actual existence, see http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36 for instance (interestingly they tell you that, and then try to sell you medals of him). I'm afraid you're disagreeing with your own church on this.
There has admittedly been a lot of confusion about the removal of certain Saints feast days from the liturgical calendar but Saint Christopher did exist.
"The removal of saints from the liturgical calendar is explained in the Second Vatican Council’s 1963 document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy:
111. Lest the feasts of the saints should take precedence over the feasts which commemorate the very mysteries of salvation, many of them should be left to be celebrated by a particular Church or nation or family of religious; only those should be extended to the universal Church which commemorate saints who are truly of universal importance.
Then in 1969, the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical calendar for says,
“With the passage of centuries, it must be admitted, the faithful have become accustomed to many special religious devotions that the principal mysteries of the redemption have lost their proper place. This was due partly to the increased number of vigils, holydays, and octaves, partly to the gradual overlapping of various seasons in the liturgical year..."
also,
"The bottom line is this: St. Christopher (and others) remains a saint and is still deserving of our love and devotion. It also means you can keep the St. Christopher medal in your car.
You can read the rest of this explaination at catholic.com
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/22/2008 11:43:31 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 317
Joined: 12/31/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
To answer your question about Saint Christopher, he existed. And he's not dead, or at least Christ wouldn't say he's dead. Mat 22:31-32 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!"
A person who stops breathing and is buried is dead. All the dead saints are dead. Even Jesus was dead for three days. Otherwise he couldn't have resurrected from the dead.
Matt 22:31-32 is about the resurrection of the dead. Who are resurrected? The dead.
As I've said before in this thread, I have no problem saying a Saint is dead provided there isn't an implied argument in the use of the word.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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