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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 11:40:46 AM
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Zhi
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From Catholic.org:
quote:
St. Christopher
Before the 1969 reform of the Roman calendar, Christopher was listed as a martyr who died under Decius. Nothing else is known about him. There are several legends about him including the one in which he was crossing a river when a child asked to be carried across. When Christopher put the child on his shoulders he found the child was unbelievably heavy. The child, according to the legend, was Christ carrying the weight of the whole world. This was what made Christopher patron saint of travelers and is invoked against storms, plagues, etc.. His former feast day is July 25.
Before the formal canonization process began in the fifteenth century, many saints were proclaimed by popular approval. This was a much faster process but unfortunately many of the saints so named were based on legends, pagan mythology, or even other religions -- for example, the story of the Buddha traveled west to Europe and he was "converted" into a Catholic saint! In 1969, the Church took a long look at all the saints on its calendar to see if there was historical evidence that that saint existed and lived a life of holiness. In taking that long look, the Church discovered that there was little proof that many "saints", including some very popular ones, ever lived. Christopher was one of the names that was determined to have a basis mostly in legend. Therefore Christopher (and others) were dropped from the universal calendar.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 12:06:37 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
From Catholic.org:
quote:
St. Christopher
Before the 1969 reform of the Roman calendar, Christopher was listed as a martyr who died under Decius. Nothing else is known about him.
You highlighted the wrong part of that quote. "Christopher was listed as a martyr who died under Decius." Or in otherwords, he existed. I'm not debating some of the legends that have sprung up over the years about him.
quote:
In taking that long look, the Church discovered that there was little proof that many "saints", including some very popular ones, ever lived. Christopher was one of the names that was determined to have a basis mostly in legend. Therefore Christopher (and others) were dropped from the universal calendar.
As I've already said, there is a lot of confusion over the removal of some Saints from the Church's liturgical calendar, even among Catholics. That's why it is best to go straight to the source when possible, the Bishops (The Second Vatican Council's document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) and the Pope (the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical Calendar). Neither said St. Christopher did not exist.
< Message edited by ukfan -- 4/23/2008 1:18:53 PM >
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 3:06:42 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
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Meh, that mostly reminds me of Chuck Norris jokes.
Chuck Norris exists, but he cannot divide by zero (the answer being Chuck Norris), he did not destroy the periodic table because the only element he recognizes is the element of surprise, there is not another fist rather than a chin under his beard, the chuck steak was not named that due to being the only remnant left of a cow that looked at him funny, and the theory of evolution is not based on a list of species that he has allowed to live.
All we really know is that Christopher was a martyr. We're not even sure that that was his real name. We're not sure who actually martyred him since it was supposed to happen in the 4th year of Deicus, who only actually reigned a little under 2 years. And yet, out of the thousands of martyrs, he's somehow bestowed by the Catholic Church with the title of "Saint", a bunch of random mostly-medieval legends, and a claim of special capability for helping people travel safely.
And you're telling me that I should consider praying to someone like that because they would make a better intercessor than Christ?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 3:33:47 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
That's why it is best to go straight to the source when possible, the Bishops (The Second Vatican Council's document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) and the Pope (the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical Calendar). Neither said St. Christopher did not exist.
Gee...Silly me. I always thought that the "source" was that little book called the B-I-B-L-E
Funny how a simple children's song can be so theological deep and correct, yet ignored by many.
"The B-I-B-L-E
That's the Book for me
I stand ALONE on the Word of God
The B-I-B-L-E"
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 3:51:55 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
That's why it is best to go straight to the source when possible, the Bishops (The Second Vatican Council's document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) and the Pope (the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical Calendar). Neither said St. Christopher did not exist.
Gee...Silly me. I always thought that the "source" was that little book called the B-I-B-L-E
Funny how a simple children's song can be so theological deep and correct, yet ignored by many.
"The B-I-B-L-E
That's the Book for me
I stand ALONE on the Word of God
The B-I-B-L-E"
In other words, you are saying that the bible is: "the pillar and foundation of the truth"?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 4:16:39 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
That's why it is best to go straight to the source when possible, the Bishops (The Second Vatican Council's document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) and the Pope (the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical Calendar). Neither said St. Christopher did not exist.
Gee...Silly me. I always thought that the "source" was that little book called the B-I-B-L-E
Funny how a simple children's song can be so theological deep and correct, yet ignored by many.
"The B-I-B-L-E
That's the Book for me
I stand ALONE on the Word of God
The B-I-B-L-E"
In other words, you are saying that the bible is: "the pillar and foundation of the truth"?
Insert "ONLY" and you got it!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 4:51:11 PM
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Lurker
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Except that the Bible says that it's the Church that's the pillar and foundation of the truth, not the scriptures.
*edit* HA! Martyrfan and I posted at the same time. Although he gets credit for going more in depth than I do
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 4:51:14 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
That's why it is best to go straight to the source when possible, the Bishops (The Second Vatican Council's document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) and the Pope (the motu proprio of Paul VI for the reform of the Liturgical Calendar). Neither said St. Christopher did not exist.
Gee...Silly me. I always thought that the "source" was that little book called the B-I-B-L-E
Funny how a simple children's song can be so theological deep and correct, yet ignored by many.
"The B-I-B-L-E
That's the Book for me
I stand ALONE on the Word of God
The B-I-B-L-E"
In other words, you are saying that the bible is: "the pillar and foundation of the truth"?
Insert "ONLY" and you got it!
The Bible is the only pillar and the only foundation of the truth? That may be your opinion, but that isn't scriptural. 1 Timothy 3:15 says:
"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Which says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. If this is the case, then quoting from the second Vatican Council is quite appropriate.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 10:35:36 PM
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Tirno
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Meh, that mostly reminds me of Chuck Norris jokes.
Chuck Norris exists, but he cannot divide by zero (the answer being Chuck Norris), he did not destroy the periodic table because the only element he recognizes is the element of surprise, there is not another fist rather than a chin under his beard, the chuck steak was not named that due to being the only remnant left of a cow that looked at him funny, and the theory of evolution is not based on a list of species that he has allowed to live.
All we really know is that Christopher was a martyr. We're not even sure that that was his real name. We're not sure who actually martyred him since it was supposed to happen in the 4th year of Deicus, who only actually reigned a little under 2 years. And yet, out of the thousands of martyrs, he's somehow bestowed by the Catholic Church with the title of "Saint", a bunch of random mostly-medieval legends, and a claim of special capability for helping people travel safely.
And you're telling me that I should consider praying to someone like that because they would make a better intercessor than Christ?
Of course! Don't you know that there are tons of people that are, like, a gazillion times better than Jesus?
I've refrained from posting on this forum because I get tired of the same arguments being recycled.
We Catholics have a very simple position.
1. The saints aren't dead. To say so contradicts Scripture.
2. As Christians, we are supposed to ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us.
3. The saints can see and hear us. Heb. 13:1.
4. The saints continually offer up prayers on our behalf. Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4.
5. No, we're not asking them to pray for us INSTEAD of Jesus. It's just like when we ask someone here on earth to pray for us, only those who have gone beyond the veil do not have this world to tie them down and distract them from offering up prayers.
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-St. Francis of Assisi
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/23/2008 10:57:19 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
And you're telling me that I should consider praying to someone like that because they would make a better intercessor than Christ?
You really, honestly, believe that Catholics think Saints are "better" intercessors than Christ?
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/24/2008 1:36:14 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
You really, honestly, believe that Catholics think Saints are "better" intercessors than Christ?
If you don't, then why do you waste your time praying to dead people? People here on earth can offer advice and help, that's why we share our prayer requests. People who are dead can't.
And yes, they are dead. They have shuffled off this mortal coil. Yes, they have shuffled off to life everlasting, but that does not change the fact that as far as this planet is concerned, they are dead. They are among "the dead in Christ shall rise first". No one in the OT ever prayed to or otherwise attempted to have a conversation with prophets who were dead (except Saul, and that did not go well), nothing in the NT tells us to change that.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/24/2008 8:08:31 AM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
You really, honestly, believe that Catholics think Saints are "better" intercessors than Christ?
If you don't, then why do you waste your time praying to dead people? People here on earth can offer advice and help, that's why we share our prayer requests. People who are dead can't.
So I guess the answer is yes. Let me just say that you have a very distorted view of the intentions of this practice.
Oh yeah, and the major reason we share our prayer requests here on earth is not to receive advice and help. Those are ancillary benefits to be sure, but the reason we share prayer requests is so other people will pray for us.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/24/2008 9:23:02 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
The Bible is the only pillar and the only foundation of the truth? That may be your opinion, but that isn't scriptural. 1 Timothy 3:15 says:
"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Which says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. If this is the case, then quoting from the second Vatican Council is quite appropriate.
Let us pull really hard and get this out of context please. Read a little farther in that you will see" The Spirit clearly says in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such things come through hypocritical liars who's consciences have been seared as with a hot iron".
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/24/2008 10:02:09 PM
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Papa-san
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Can any of you Orthodox point me to scripture verses that confirm your claim that these saints and Mary can hear us, please?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 5:13:49 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texasweet
Now you sound like Kelman and his illogical statement that the bible came before the Church. LOL....nothing illogical about my statement - you're just unable to grasp the truth involved. I'd explain it to you again but I doubt it would take this time either. Instead, you'd prefer to build your own personal strawman. That's what people usually do when they have no reasonable response to truth.
quote:
You don't have what the apostles wrote...you have a copy...the originals are long gone! Does that shock you? Now you are relying on the inspiration of the copiests and the trademark found on the inside cover of your bible. Does it shock you to know that God says His Word will never disappear - that not a "jot or titte" - will disappear. Nah, not shock, maybe anger, though.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 5:16:04 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Where is that in Scripture, 1st Confusions? ROFL!!! 
(I believe that is one of the first books in the "Catholic Book o' Traditions", isn't it?) No, RC has that one tucked nice and neat in their addition to Scripture - the Apocrypha. They love those books because the books allow just about anything, i.e., praying to saints and Mary instead of to the Father as COMMANDED by Jesus Christ. Someone could build a whole new religion out of those fallible books....oh, wait, somebody already did.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 5:17:07 AM
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kelman
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quote:
The faithful are allowed to render anything they want from Scriptures (hence Appalachian Pentecostals fondling snakes and drinking strychnine as part of their services...) Yep, and RC can render anything it personally prefers from their traditions...ah, like making Mary a redemptrix.....Apparently, Jesus Christ was so deficient He was unable to fulfill prophecy on His own.
quote:
So - the next time you lose your car keys - give St. Anthony of Padua a try...  Not funny, they really mean it. That's the problem with RC it has devolved into superstition - another thing God abhors.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 5:18:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3894
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
“For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself being human.” (1Timothy 2:5)
Now, come on, Sox, you know some scribe must have gotten that one wrong. After all, RC declares: "no, no, we say there's another mediator - Mary".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 8:06:12 AM
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authorcrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
In other words, you are saying that the bible is: "the pillar and foundation of the truth"?
Insert "ONLY" and you got it!
So why did Jesus go about gathering 12 men, like Moses gathered the 12 tribes of Israel for the Exodus? Why didn’t he just gathered four men and got down to writing books, while he went about preaching, to establish them as His pillar of truth.
But wait a minute, He came to establish the New Covenant, didn’t he? What is a Covenant? In all of God’s Covenants with Israel, it was an exchange of persons – I am your God, you are my people.
To establish a New Covenant, Christ needed the original people, didn’t He – in this case the representatives of the 12 tribes. So when Christ fulfilled His side of the Covenant on the Cross, was it a book that is going to fulfil the other part of the sacred bargain, to proclaim His salvific work, His Gospel?
God never established His Covenant with a book, it is always with people, but some seems to think otherwise. Go figure.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 12:10:51 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
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Wow, you are really hung up on this Moses thing.
quote:
So why did Jesus go about gathering 12 men, like Moses gathered the 12 tribes of Israel for the Exodus? Why didn’t he just gathered four men and got down to writing books, while he went about preaching, to establish them as His pillar of truth.
Moses didn't really gather the 12 tribes, they were right there. Nor are the 12 disciples from each of the 12 tribes (several were brothers, after all). Also, one of the tribes didn't betray Moses and have him killed by the Egyptians. And, again, Moses did not establish a leadership succession that went any farther than his immediate successor. I'm sure you like your allegories but they're really a stretch.
quote:
But wait a minute, He came to establish the New Covenant, didn’t he? What is a Covenant? In all of God’s Covenants with Israel, it was an exchange of persons – I am your God, you are my people.
The old covenant was with Abraham, not Moses. Another allegorical breakdown.
quote:
To establish a New Covenant, Christ needed the original people, didn’t He – in this case the representatives of the 12 tribes. So when Christ fulfilled His side of the Covenant on the Cross, was it a book that is going to fulfil the other part of the sacred bargain, to proclaim His salvific work, His Gospel?
They weren't representatives of the 12 tribes in any hereditary sense. As previously mentioned, several were brothers so they would belong to the same tribe.
quote:
God never established His Covenant with a book, it is always with people, but some seems to think otherwise. Go figure.
Then why is the Torah so greatly prized and revered as the very Word of God by the Jews? The Book lays out the Covenant. The Book is the record of the Covenant. The Book keeps people on track with the Covenant. This is why King Josiah wept when they found the Book in the ruins of the temple... without the Torah to keep them on track, the people had fallen away. In fact, they were doing the very things that are described in this thread... praying to someone or something other than God, calling on the dead, etc. Reading the Book restored them to a right knowledge of how to interact with their God.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 4/26/2008 12:17:12 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 12:23:00 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
So why did Jesus go about gathering 12 men, like Moses gathered the 12 tribes of Israel for the Exodus? Why didn’t he just gathered four men and got down to writing books, while he went about preaching, to establish them as His pillar of truth. He needed reliable witnesses to His miracles... quote:
But wait a minute, He came to establish the New Covenant, didn’t he? What is a Covenant? In all of God’s Covenants with Israel, it was an exchange of persons – I am your God, you are my people. The covenants we are discussing are promises from God to His people. The first Covenant was written about in Hebrew scripture. (And to think that even though it was written down, they still managed to mess it up!) So this New Covenant was written down to keep it from getting messed up. Yet the RCC managed to mess it up even with the New Covenant written about! quote:
To establish a New Covenant, Christ needed the original people, didn’t He – in this case the representatives of the 12 tribes. So when Christ fulfilled His side of the Covenant on the Cross, was it a book that is going to fulfil the other part of the sacred bargain, to proclaim His salvific work, His Gospel? Wow! I never knew that each apostle was a representative of a different tribe! So... which ones were the Samaritan representatives?quote:
God never established His Covenant with a book, it is always with people, but some seems to think otherwise. Go figure.
The scripture isn't the covenant itself, silly! It is the written description of it! God simply made sure it was an accurate accounting in hopes that humans wouldn't trash it with their own invented concepts! (Or, more accurately, when some of the people had trashed it, others would be able to correct those errors.) Is there any wonder as to why the RCC didn't want the general public to get their hands on it? Then they would know that praying to Mary and the saints would be against God's rules... Wow! That sure left the RCC in a quandry: They had already claimed that their pope was able to speak infallibly about aspects of Christianity, yet the completed scriptures said it would be impossible for him to do that! I guess the only way they could spin that was to say scripture was/is not what God said it is... So it was turned into "some writings that some people did."
Wow! I'm sure glad I don't have to be the spin doctor on THAT project!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 2:14:31 PM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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Zhi,
You don't get my point on types when I pointed to Exodus- Deuteronomy.
My mistake on phrasing on the 12 apostles wrongly. So I apologise for that.
quote:
Matthew 19 Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When I referred to the Old Testament Covenants I wasn’t specifically referring to Moses. But for the record, there were four key Covenants that God made: to Adam, Noah, Abraham and then Moses, establishing respectively a marriage, family, tribe and nation. All these are exchange of persons, unlike a contract where goods are the mode.
My point about the book is not that we should not heed the written words (in contrast to the Word Himself) of Christ, but that He often rebuked the Pharisees and scribes who insist on the letter of the written word that they made it difficult for the people to follow the laws of God.
The Gospel is preached and heard (Acts 15:7): "Brothers, you know well enough that from the early days God selected me from your number to be the one from whose lips the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe.”
This is what I mean about the people of God fulfilling their part in the New Covenant.
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