|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2008 6:43:31 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
Zhi,
You don't get my point on types when I pointed to Exodus- Deuteronomy.
My mistake on phrasing on the 12 apostles wrongly. So I apologise for that.
quote:
Matthew 19 Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
That sounds more like Judges than Moses. ;)
quote:
When I referred to the Old Testament Covenants I wasn’t specifically referring to Moses. But for the record, there were four key Covenants that God made: to Adam, Noah, Abraham and then Moses, establishing respectively a marriage, family, tribe and nation. All these are exchange of persons, unlike a contract where goods are the mode.
My point about the book is not that we should not heed the written words (in contrast to the Word Himself) of Christ, but that He often rebuked the Pharisees and scribes who insist on the letter of the written word that they made it difficult for the people to follow the laws of God.
The Gospel is preached and heard (Acts 15:7): "Brothers, you know well enough that from the early days God selected me from your number to be the one from whose lips the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe.”
This is what I mean about the people of God fulfilling their part in the New Covenant.
Jesus yelled at the Pharisees because they were creating traditions as interpretations of the Torah. If the Torah said don't work on the Sabbath, the Pharisees said that meant that you couldn't go more than around 2 miles from your property, for instance. They were getting on Jesus' case because his disciples had rubbed heads of grain between their hands and eaten it on the Sabbath. They were getting on Jesus' case because he HEALED someone on the Sabbath. They weren't just reading the Torah... they were misinterpreting it and telling people they had to do stuff that the Law did not say they had to do, but because it was TRADITION.
Which, frankly, is a lot like the Catholic church, now that I think about it.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 12:53:28 AM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Which, frankly, is a lot like the Catholic church, now that I think about it.
It does sound frightfully Catholic, doesn’t it?  There is a difference, though.
Jesus came to fulfil and perfect the Mosaic laws. But I’ll let Christ explain in His own words the difference, which is being heard by Catholics all over the world this Sunday in Churches.
Jn 14:15-21
Jesus said to his disciples:
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
And I will ask the Father,
and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept,
because it neither sees nor knows him.
But you know him, because he remains with you,
and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
In a little while the world will no longer see me,
but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father
and you are in me and I in you.
Whoever has my commandments and observes them
is the one who loves me.
And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father,
and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”
Go here Sunday Gospel
< Message edited by authorcrat -- 4/27/2008 1:02:16 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 1:02:33 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
And the Protestants have the same Holy Spirit, so who wins?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 1:18:11 AM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
And the Protestants have the same Holy Spirit, so who wins?
There are no winners until all are one and united in Christ. It is something all Christians, no matter what each call themselves, must pray for.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 1:49:50 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
I mean doctrinally.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 2:52:47 AM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I mean doctrinally.
This, as we all know, is a flash point between Catholics and Protestants. But you pose a question and I can only answer it from a Catholic perspective.
I am sure you have yours, which I will leave it at that and I will not argue.
God is unchanging, so is His Truth. Christ left His teaching and preaching ministry of the Gospels to His Apostles and they in turn had to ensure the continuation of that after they pass on. We believe in the protection of the Holy Spirit of this ministry, including the correct interpretation of the Gospels.
This teaching and preaching ministry, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit takes the form of the Magisterium, which is all the bishops, including the pope, universally united in a collegiate.
The Church does not disapprove of private reflection of the Gospels, but in guiding and feeding Christ sheep, there can only be one Truth from an unchanging God in its interpretation and this comes from the universal Magisterium.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 12:55:07 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
He needed reliable witnesses to His miracles...
Like that 1st miracle, when Mary interceded for the Bridegroom, I think that one involved wine too!
Yup!
And Jesus was really not too happy with her about overstepping her bounds. However, since she had 'outed' Him before His time, He had to do something to keep her prideful actions from having her be humiliated before that bridegroom and the others who witnessed this sin of hers...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2008 3:01:12 PM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
And Jesus was really not too happy with her about overstepping her bounds. However, since she had 'outed' Him before His time, He had to do something to keep her prideful actions from having her be humiliated before that bridegroom and the others who witnessed this sin of hers...
Papa-san,
Skin the Catholic, condemn him or her to Hell for what you perceive as their wrongful beliefs, but how do you get up in the morning, look yourself in the mirror, call yourself a Christian and tell the Lord that you have just insulted the person He chose to bear him as a Man.
We are not even so vile to our fellowman.
I honestly pray that the Lord will have mercy on your soul, even as you condemn me to Hell.
Does anyone here honestly take you seriously?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 4:31:41 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3894
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
And the Protestants have the same Holy Spirit, so who wins?
There are no winners until all are one and united in Christ. It is something all Christians, no matter what each call themselves, must pray for.
What you fail to realize is that if one is a Christian they are already united in Christ. The mistake you make is thinking that being united in Christ means one church government or even complete doctrinal unity - it doesn't. This is precisely what I mean about your church having no understanding of what the Bible calls "church".
Besides, God never set up church government as RC is organized today.
quote:
God is unchanging, so is His Truth. Christ left His teaching and preaching ministry of the Gospels to His Apostles and they in turn had to ensure the continuation of that after they pass on. And the way in which they did that was by writing it down. The Bible is the only place we find the truth of what God has revealed. Peter himself said that is why he wrote the Gospel down.
quote:
We believe in the protection of the Holy Spirit of this ministry, including the correct interpretation of the Gospels. Believe as you will; but, you have no biblical support for your doctrines whether it's the papacy, the magisterium or praying to saints and Mary.
< Message edited by kelman -- 4/28/2008 4:44:07 AM >
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 9:38:56 AM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4278
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
And Jesus was really not too happy with her about overstepping her bounds. However, since she had 'outed' Him before His time, He had to do something to keep her prideful actions from having her be humiliated before that bridegroom and the others who witnessed this sin of hers...
Papa-san,
Skin the Catholic, condemn him or her to Hell for what you perceive as their wrongful beliefs, but how do you get up in the morning, look yourself in the mirror, call yourself a Christian and tell the Lord that you have just insulted the person He chose to bear him as a Man.
From John 2:
1 Now on the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there,
2 and Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no wine left.”
4 Jesus replied, “Woman, why are you saying this to me? My time has not yet come.”
5 His mother told the servants, “Whatever he tells you, do it.”
I don't see how he insulted anyone. But you've hit the nail on the head. Protestants do not believe Mary is set above anyone else, regardless of who she birthed. The above passage doesn't even go so far to mention her by name. Jesus doesn't even call her "mother," he calls her "woman." (A couple of translations use "dear woman," but most don't.)
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 11:49:55 AM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
Papa-san,
Skin the Catholic, condemn him or her to Hell for what you perceive as their wrongful beliefs, but how do you get up in the morning, look yourself in the mirror, call yourself a Christian and tell the Lord that you have just insulted the person He chose to bear him as a Man.
We are not even so vile to our fellowman.
I honestly pray that the Lord will have mercy on your soul, even as you condemn me to Hell.
Does anyone here honestly take you seriously?
What in the world are you babbling about?!? I don't condemn ANYONE to Hell! I try to correct their false beliefs that are scripturally unfounded and idolatrous.
I have NOT insulted Mary in the least! Have you not read that little bit 'o scripture? If you cannot see where Christ was displeased with what she did at this wedding, you have not read it properly! I suggest reading it again and again until you can see where she forced a beginning to His 'fame' before it was supposed to be done!
You are the one who labours under the delusion that Mary was sinless. She was not any more sinless than you or me or any other human that ever lived EXCEPT for Jesus Christ Himself... Except that this, is another reason I can see why you don't believe scripture is what it is... The fact that "not one" might mean "not one" is an alien concept, apparently...
As to taking me seriously, I don't believe this require a vote, but I'm pretty sure that many people agree with what I say. In fairness, I admit that I have had a PM from another Protestant who has asked me to blunt the edge on my razor a bit. Other than that I could copy and paste a few of the many PM's I have received by many (Including some Catholics) who are glad I share truth, no matter if it's candy coated or not. (I personally don't believe in candy coatings, as my Lord didn't seem to as He blasted the moneychangers and Pharisees with their false teachings. I just do the same...)
Mary was not sinless. That is one of the many lies your "Church" has fed you. As long as you and the other deluded continue to believe this, I will continue to mention that this is a scriptural impossibility. I'm pretty sure I'll get a pat on the back by Him because I didn't yield to the "Political Correctness" that allows this lie about her to prevail in so many minds... You cannot really see it, but this insistence that God lied to us (in His word) is one prime example of the RCC taking away from the deity that belongs to Christ alone...
I started reading something I was referred to yesterday, but as soon as I got to the line that said "...Jesus and Mary alone have been without sin..." I closed the browser... I will NOT, by choice, allow LIES about Jesus Christ sink too deeply in my mind. The lie being that ANY human has shared in His sinless state! If it were true, God would have let us know... I would STRONGLY suggest you begin looking at the foundation of your beliefs and do what you can to assure yourself that every time you put Mary on this false pedestal, that you are not offending the ONLY One who has been sinless... He (Jesus) was Humble when He walked with us, but as soon as He returned to His proper place in the Kingdom of God, His time of humility ended... Look at the description John uses in his Revelation... Humility doesn't show up there...
If there were any special attributes given to Mary beyond what was written in scripture, they wouldn't have been passed over in the writing... Anything more is invented by man...
God tells me in His word that that self-same word is completely sufficient. It contains ALL I need to have in order to be right with Him... Mary being sinless IS NOT included there, no matter how you 'spin' it... Do you even see how stating that she was sinless invalidates the Gospel?!? (Evidently not, or you would have turned your back on the lies...) That's why I cannot follow the RCC. (or any church that deifies Mary)- They have taken away from Christ and said that there is another way to achieve salvation! He doesn't EVER say that!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 4:08:10 PM
|
|
|
authorcrat
Posts: 54
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline
|
Peace, you are the one facing the Lord on this, it is your conviction. the Truth is with Him, not me. So go in peace.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 5:01:22 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Yup!
And Jesus was really not too happy with her about overstepping her bounds. However, since she had 'outed' Him before His time, He had to do something to keep her prideful actions from having her be humiliated before that bridegroom and the others who witnessed this sin of hers...
She was prideful in asking her son to help someone? How do you gather that? How did she overstep her bounds? Are we not supposed to ask Jesus for help?
I disagree often with you as I am sure you do me. But when it comes to your attitude toward Mary, it truly concerns me. This was the women God choose to carry his son in her womb, she was chosen and favored by God. Yet your posts overwhelming imply that to you she isn't worthy of respect or love for that role. Why all negative feelings towards the Mother of our Lord?
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 5:12:42 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4278
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
Props to Mary...but she's not even mentioned outside the gospels. Seems like she would be if we were supposed to worship her alongside Christ.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 5:41:02 PM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 564
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Props to Mary...but she's not even mentioned outside the gospels. Seems like she would be if we were supposed to worship her alongside Christ.
Just to inform you, Christians are not asked to worship Mary. I am sure you will be happy to learn that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 5:46:06 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
No one said anything about worshiping Mary. Catholic's don't worship Mary.
Pax-
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 8:10:34 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
I understand that it sounds like I don't have any respect for the role she played in the salvation of us all... That is not the case. She did play an utterly unique part in it, and no other can claim that.
Even so, we cannot go placing her in a position as an equal with Christ. Scripture makes it quite clear that she cannot be... that no-one can be. That honor is Christ's alone. He is the only person who walked the planet that was free of sin. Saying that Mary was sinless is saying that the Gospel is a lie. If even a single word of it is untrue, then it is all defective.
I am pretty sure that what you are picking up on is my indignation that some people are taking away from the Glory that belongs to God only. Mary had an incredibly important role, nonetheless, she IS NOT AN EQUAL TO CHRIST!!!
This attitude is what has allowed the RCC (and others) to fall away from God's commands and begin to place others in His stead. He makes it clear that we are to pray to Him only through Jesus Christ. Going to other 'spirit beings' is absolutely against His rules. If Mary and those saints are now in 'spirit form' they qualify under Gods definition of who NOT to pray to...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 8:11:56 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Just to inform you, Christians are not asked to worship Mary. I am sure you will be happy to learn that.
I know I'm ecstatic to know this! Now, if we can figure out how to get the ones who DO worship her to stop...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 9:44:33 PM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 564
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Mary had an incredibly important role, nonetheless, she IS NOT AN EQUAL TO CHRIST!!!
Can you find a post on this thread where someone claimed she was?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 10:19:31 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
Claiming she was sinless places her as an equal.
Co-redeemer?
Yeah, look back. you'll find it...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2008 11:43:51 PM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 564
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Claiming she was sinless places her as an equal.
Co-redeemer?
Yeah, look back. you'll find it...
Actually, her sinlessness does not make her equal to Jesus. After all, the angels are sinless, and are they equal to God?
The Co in co-redemtrix does not mean equal either. The Co means with, in other words, she participated in God's plan of redemption, by agreeing to bear Jesus. That is all that it means.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 4:47:27 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3894
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Props to Mary...but she's not even mentioned outside the gospels. Seems like she would be if we were supposed to worship her alongside Christ.
Just to inform you, Christians are not asked to worship Mary. I am sure you will be happy to learn that.
It is what it is. RC prayers to Mary fall into the category of worship regardless of the hierarchy protestations to the contrary. It is not even within the realm of possibility to regard those prayers as anything but worship - if one was honest with oneself.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 4:48:57 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3894
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Claiming she was sinless places her as an equal.
Co-redeemer?
Yeah, look back. you'll find it...
Actually, her sinlessness does not make her equal to Jesus. After all, the angels are sinless, and are they equal to God? Why do you try so hard to uphold what is clearly contrary to Scripture - especially with absurd comparisons. You are comparing apples and oranges - the angels are NOT human beings - Mary was; and, according to God she was not sinless.
quote:
The Co in co-redemtrix does not mean equal either. The Co means with, in other words, she participated in God's plan of redemption, by agreeing to bear Jesus. That is all that it means.
It means a lot more than that and one would hope you realize that it does. While awaiting the final formalization of the fifth Marian dogma declaring Mary "Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-redemptrix and Advocate", your church has already been teaching such glorification of Mary.
"Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us." Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1894
The above is an affront to God. He never intimates such glorification of Mary is to be practiced. He and He alone is the Giver of all grace and it passes through no human being first. You will never find the slightest bit of scriptural support for such a dogma. These dogmas come from no where but the sinful imaginations of men.
RC forgets there could always have been another "Mary"; but, there could only be one Redeemer, Mediator and Advocate - Christ Jesus. Your church has over the years raised Mary to the level of the "fourth" person of the Trinity.
Contrary to the Word of God, RC teaches we are redeemed by both Jesus Christ AND Mary.
"our souls were redeemed by the blood and sorrows of the Redeemer and by those of His Virgin Mother" Pope Pius XII American Ecclesiastical Review, volume CXXI, number 5, Nov. 1949, 360.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 11:59:46 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I understand that it sounds like I don't have any respect for the role she played in the salvation of us all... That is not the case. She did play an utterly unique part in it, and no other can claim that.
Even so, we cannot go placing her in a position as an equal with Christ. Scripture makes it quite clear that she cannot be... that no-one can be. That honor is Christ's alone.
I agree.
quote:
He is the only person who walked the planet that was free of sin. Saying that Mary was sinless is saying that the Gospel is a lie. If even a single word of it is untrue, then it is all defective.
I disagree. I believe that Mary was sinless, but that doesn't mean I think the Gospel is a lie. I think that the idea that Jesus was kept free from sin by being born to someone who was free from sin fits the Gospel better then the alternative. And if there was one person in the world who God allowed to be sinless, I am glad it is the woman who would become the mother of His Son. Now I really don't think either of us is going to change our mind on Mary sin/sinless nature but I don't see your jump to this -
quote:
I am pretty sure that what you are picking up on is my indignation that some people are taking away from the Glory that belongs to God only. Mary had an incredibly important role, nonetheless, she IS NOT AN EQUAL TO CHRIST!!!
I don't see this as taking glory away from God, being sinless was a gift from God. IMO gifts from God don't take away from God. And I agree with you she did have an incredibly important role and she is NOT equal to Christ.
quote:
This attitude is what has allowed the RCC (and others) to fall away from God's commands and begin to place others in His stead. He makes it clear that we are to pray to Him only through Jesus Christ. Going to other 'spirit beings' is absolutely against His rules. If Mary and those saints are now in 'spirit form' they qualify under Gods definition of who NOT to pray to...
Well we disagree here too. I have found these prays of mine to the saints to strengthen and to draw me closer to Christ.
Can I ask (off topic a little) are angels included in the other "spirit beings" in your opinion.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2008 12:27:28 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4278
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I believe that Mary was sinless, but that doesn't mean I think the Gospel is a lie. I think that the idea that Jesus was kept free from sin by being born to someone who was free from sin fits the Gospel better then the alternative.
a) it isn't the "alternative"...it is, in fact, the gospel the way it was written
b) Jesus wasn't kept free from sin because He was born to someone who was sinless...He was kept free from sin because He was the SON OF GOD; the fact that He was sinless and no other human has ever been sinless is THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE WHOLE THING
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
|
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
