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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 6:43:43 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 94
Joined: 7/27/2006
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lol. Is there supposed to be another translation?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/5/2008 10:14:35 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 164
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
Sigh...check out the meaning of "in the presence" - Enopion. If and when you do you will find it means: before a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes.
It is translated "before" 64 times, "in (one's) presence", 2 times ; "in (one's) sight", 5 times ; "in the presence of", 7 times ; "in the sight of", 16 times;
And if and when you check out the other places it is translated "in the presence of", you will again find its more than obvious meaning.
.....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. -Revelation 14:10
We seem to be misunderstanding one another, and I certainly did not mean to cause you to sigh.
Thank you very much for the definition of enopion, but I could have saved you the bother--I have many reference materials of my own within arms' reach, not to mention my husband's own supply of them a few steps away, and the Internet as well.
Be that as it may, I was not asking what "in the presence of" means--I was asking who was doing the rejoicing.
You have not answered this question.
"There is great rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God..." Who is rejoicing?
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 12:20:15 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 679
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Zhi,
Hope your trip with the hubby went well.
Then you wrote:
quote:
I'm not sure what a long commentary on love has to do with praying to the saints.
First off, I really didn't think it was a "long commentary." Secondly, love has everything to do with the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints, which was abandoned by adherents of the "reformation." They redefined the ancient Creed which affirmed the Truth of the Communion of Saints; the Church Triumphant, the Church Suffering, and the Church on Pilgrimage. All One in Christ. All bound together by His Love in us.
quote:
Since we haven't established any precedence showing that they can even hear you, their motivation seems a bit of a moot point.
No dear, it is inherent in the Christian life. Love remains most perfectly in the Presence of Christ Himself.
quote:
I, too, consider my Christian life as a journey, but it's a journey with Christ, and I talk to Him directly, rather than relying on a massive host of intermediaries. My marriage wouldn't be doing very well if I called our friend Derrick every time I wanted to tell my husband something and asked him to pass it on. Relationships just don't work that way.
Thankfully, our relationship with our Lord and our brothers and sisters in Christ is much more tolerant and loving than any marital relationship I've witnessed. God is Love, Zhi. He isn't opposed to love between His children.
quote:
I ask Christians on earth to pray with me because a) I know they can hear me because they're standing right there listening, b) we're directly instructed to "bear one another's burdens", and c) they often come through with God-given advice and perspective that I very much need.
And they're not perfected and may be paying lip service while they gossip about you behind your back! That's pretty much my experience with non-Catholic Christians. No matter, I forgive them.
quote:
There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that dead saints can hear us, no instruction to speak to them in Scripture, and dead people don't generally give advice (at least to sane people).
The Saints are not dead. If you believe they are, where is your faith?
Puzzled...
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 1:02:31 AM
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CalRed
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline
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What do you mean the saints are not dead? The Bible clearly tells us they are dead and in the grave.
What are you referring to?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 1:34:52 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 679
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Greetings, CalRed,
quote:
What do you mean the saints are not dead? The Bible clearly tells us they are dead and in the grave.
And our Lord God clearly tells us that He is the God of those who live in Him.
quote:
What are you referring to?
Life in Christ. The part where He promised eternal life to the faithful....the Saints.
Blessings,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 3:16:55 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
First off, I really didn't think it was a "long commentary." Secondly, love has everything to do with the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints, which was abandoned by adherents of the "reformation." They redefined the ancient Creed which affirmed the Truth of the Communion of Saints; the Church Triumphant, the Church Suffering, and the Church on Pilgrimage. All One in Christ. All bound together by His Love in us.
Spend 2 days (except church time) hanging drywall on a ceiling and you will find that everything over a couple paragraphs is a long commentary.
quote:
No dear, it is inherent in the Christian life. Love remains most perfectly in the Presence of Christ Himself.
Sure it is, but that does not indicate that the people you refer to as saints have any clue whatsoever of what's going on down here, much less our prayers.
quote:
Thankfully, our relationship with our Lord and our brothers and sisters in Christ is much more tolerant and loving than any marital relationship I've witnessed. God is Love, Zhi. He isn't opposed to love between His children.
I think you kind of missed the point. If I call a friend to tell him or her to tell my husband something every time I have something to say to my husband, our marital relationship will suffer. It is far better for me to converse with him directly.
As for being tolerant, God Himself has stated that He is a jealous God.
quote:
And they're not perfected and may be paying lip service while they gossip about you behind your back! That's pretty much my experience with non-Catholic Christians. No matter, I forgive them.
You do? And yet here you are gossiping behind their backs. Interesting.
quote:
The Saints are not dead. If you believe they are, where is your faith?
The Saints are deceased. They have shuffled off this mortal coil. They no longer have breath. The spirits have left the bodies. You should know this better than any of us, given your church's propensity for saving knuckle bones and other small bits of them in reliquaries (which, frankly, eww.)
That does not mean that their souls are gone (because souls are immortal) or that their bodies will not someday be raised to everlasting life (in fact the Bible guarantees it) but it does mean that they are not currently in a place where there is any indication whatsoever that they can hear us. Even if they could hear us, don't you think they'd rather be busy worshipping and being in awe of Jesus than being some sort of cosmic spiritual secretary forwarding petitions?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 3:28:21 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5036
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
Sigh...check out the meaning of "in the presence" - Enopion. If and when you do you will find it means: before a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes.
It is translated "before" 64 times, "in (one's) presence", 2 times ; "in (one's) sight", 5 times ; "in the presence of", 7 times ; "in the sight of", 16 times;
And if and when you check out the other places it is translated "in the presence of", you will again find its more than obvious meaning.
.....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. -Revelation 14:10
We seem to be misunderstanding one another, and I certainly did not mean to cause you to sigh.
Thank you very much for the definition of enopion, but I could have saved you the bother--I have many reference materials of my own within arms' reach, not to mention my husband's own supply of them a few steps away, and the Internet as well.
Be that as it may, I was not asking what "in the presence of" means--I was asking who was doing the rejoicing.
You have not answered this question.
"There is great rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God..." Who is rejoicing?
The first time I said "angels", the second time I said "angels". How many more times would you like me to answer the same question?
It appears you think you are in possession of some particular knowledge with regard to that verse. Why not reveal what apparently is some great revelation - why so cryptic?
< Message edited by kelman -- 5/6/2008 3:38:44 AM >
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 6:50:02 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1144
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Spend 2 days (except church time) hanging drywall on a ceiling and you will find that everything over a couple paragraphs is a long commentary. How are those shoulders?
...feel the burn...
_____________________________
I, then, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 9:22:35 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 672
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I think you kind of missed the point. If I call a friend to tell him or her to tell my husband something every time I have something to say to my husband, our marital relationship will suffer. It is far better for me to converse with him directly.
As for being tolerant, God Himself has stated that He is a jealous God.
Right! but if you never talk to your friend that relationship will suffer too. In praying to the saints I am asking them to speak/pray to God for me. I usually let them know what I would like them to pray about, and sometimes I mention the outcome I would like. I have no idea if they actually take that request to God in the way I asked or not. Just like I have no idea when I ask friends on earth to pray if they pray for the request I made or what they think I need, as they might hear my request different or add their own request for me.
God isn't jealous of our friendships with his children.
I don't understand why some think that if one prays to the Saints
1 - they must never pray to God (or Jesus or the Holy Spirit)
2 - this must hurt their relationship with God (and/or Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit)
The opposite on both points is closer to the truth (at least for me)
Pax,
Mary
BTW - Hope the drywall is done!
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 9:58:01 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 680
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
Sigh...check out the meaning of "in the presence" - Enopion. If and when you do you will find it means: before a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes.
It is translated "before" 64 times, "in (one's) presence", 2 times ; "in (one's) sight", 5 times ; "in the presence of", 7 times ; "in the sight of", 16 times;
And if and when you check out the other places it is translated "in the presence of", you will again find its more than obvious meaning.
.....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. -Revelation 14:10
We seem to be misunderstanding one another, and I certainly did not mean to cause you to sigh.
Thank you very much for the definition of enopion, but I could have saved you the bother--I have many reference materials of my own within arms' reach, not to mention my husband's own supply of them a few steps away, and the Internet as well.
Be that as it may, I was not asking what "in the presence of" means--I was asking who was doing the rejoicing.
You have not answered this question.
"There is great rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God..." Who is rejoicing?
The first time I said "angels", the second time I said "angels". How many more times would you like me to answer the same question?
It appears you think you are in possession of some particular knowledge with regard to that verse. Why not reveal what apparently is some great revelation - why so cryptic?
The angels are rejoicing in the presence of.... the angels?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 1:03:25 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Right! but if you never talk to your friend that relationship will suffer too. In praying to the saints I am asking them to speak/pray to God for me. I usually let them know what I would like them to pray about, and sometimes I mention the outcome I would like. I have no idea if they actually take that request to God in the way I asked or not. Just like I have no idea when I ask friends on earth to pray if they pray for the request I made or what they think I need, as they might hear my request different or add their own request for me.
God isn't jealous of our friendships with his children.
Well, depends on how they're structured. My husband isn't jealous of my friendship with our friend, but if I started saying and doing things to him that I'm supposed to say and do to my husband, there would be a serious issue there. So, if we're fond of the saints, that's one thing. If we're talking to the saints in a worshipful way that's supposed to be reserved for God Himself, that's a problem. The prayers I've seen that are supposed to be addressed to the saints are very worshipful *to that saint* and most of them don't even refer to passing it on to God. If I similarly said all sorts of husband and wife stuff to my friend, there would be a serious issue in both my relationship to my friend and my relationship to my husband.
quote:
I don't understand why some think that if one prays to the Saints
1 - they must never pray to God (or Jesus or the Holy Spirit)
2 - this must hurt their relationship with God (and/or Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit)
The opposite on both points is closer to the truth (at least for me)
1 - Kind of a moot point really, the question is about praying to the saints.
2 - Since God calls himself a jealous God and there are so many warnings against venerating anyone who is not God, then yes.
quote:
The angels are rejoicing in the presence of.... the angels?
God is also rejoicing in the presence of the angels.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 2:59:27 PM
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CalRed
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Greetings, CalRed,
quote:
What do you mean the saints are not dead? The Bible clearly tells us they are dead and in the grave.
And our Lord God clearly tells us that He is the God of those who live in Him.
quote:
What are you referring to?
Life in Christ. The part where He promised eternal life to the faithful....the Saints.
Blessings,
gatolover
And I am sure that at the resurrection, God will grant eternal life to the saints. Until then they are simply dead and in the grave.
Also, we are instructed to pray only to "our Father." Jesus gave us instructions how to pray.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 3:05:57 PM
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CalRed
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline
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Zhi
You said souls are immortal. Where do you get that idea? If from Scripture, would you please quote it?
The Bible promises us (Christians) that we will be raised immortal but until then the body and soul are dead. The spirit has returned to God who gave it.
I would really like to read the Scriptures that say the soul is immortal.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 3:10:48 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 672
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Well, depends on how they're structured. My husband isn't jealous of my friendship with our friend, but if I started saying and doing things to him that I'm supposed to say and do to my husband, there would be a serious issue there. So, if we're fond of the saints, that's one thing. If we're talking to the saints in a worshipful way that's supposed to be reserved for God Himself, that's a problem. The prayers I've seen that are supposed to be addressed to the saints are very worshipful *to that saint* and most of them don't even refer to passing it on to God. If I similarly said all sorts of husband and wife stuff to my friend, there would be a serious issue in both my relationship to my friend and my relationship to my husband.
When I ask my friends on earth to pray from me am I worshiping them? This is the best comparison I can think of - I don't worship my friend when I ask him to pray for me and I don't worship St. Anne when I ask her for prayers. Unfortunately I think a lot of this misunderstanding comes in to play because prayer and worship are personal activities inwich the true meaning can only be understood by the doer. People can be forced to say things, for example parents can force children to say "I'm Sorry" to someone but they can't force the feeling of sorrow. People can not be forced or unknowingly worship someone/something. I agree with you that ones relationship with God and the Saints should be different, just like our relationship between us and our spouses and friends is different, and the only people who know what those relationships are truly about are us, our spouses and our friends.
quote:
quote:
I don't understand why some think that if one prays to the Saints
1 - they must never pray to God (or Jesus or the Holy Spirit)
2 - this must hurt their relationship with God (and/or Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit)
The opposite on both points is closer to the truth (at least for me)
1 - Kind of a moot point really, the question is about praying to the saints.
2 - Since God calls himself a jealous God and there are so many warnings against venerating anyone who is not God, then yes.
1 - Right it is about praying to the saints which doesn't limit ones ability to worship God.
2 - But with an all knowing God he sees the truth of our relationships with his Holy Children - and like our good Christian friends on earth the Saints want us to find and help led us to a close/wonderful relationship with God.
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 5/6/2008 3:23:39 PM >
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 4:38:59 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Well, CalRed, the Bible clearly states that we are destined either for eternal happiness in Heaven, or eternal pain in hell. So, as such, it stands to reason. Take 2 Thess 1:9 "They shall be punished with everlasting destruction". Now, I'm aware that some people believe that that means their souls will be destroyed, but the "everlasting" seems a tad redundant and unnecessary in that case. That being said, this isn't really the topic to be discussing this particular theological issue, so I shall refrain from continuing.
So, Catholicandlovingit when you go ask your friend Bob to pray for you, you seriously say something like:
O glorious Bob, you are filled with compassion for those who invoke you and with love for those who suffer! Heavily burdened with the weight of my troubles, I cast myself at your feet and humbly beg of you to take the present intention which I recommend to you in your special care.
Please place it before the throne of Jesus, so that He may bring it to a happy issue. Continue to intercede for me until my request is granted. But, above all, obtain for me the grace one day to see my God face to face, and with you and Mary and all the saints to praise and bless Him for all eternity. Amen.
Seems a bit heavy on the butter-up, don't you think?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 6:58:57 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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I find the worshipful language troubling mostly, as I believe worship should be reserved for God alone.
Otherwise, given a lack of any surety that dead saints in Heaven can actually hear us or have any interest in the affairs of this world, I mostly consider it a waste of time.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 11:10:58 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 679
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Hi Zhi,
quote:
Spend 2 days (except church time) hanging drywall on a ceiling and you will find that everything over a couple paragraphs is a long commentary.
Been there, got the t-shirt. 
quote:
Sure it is, but that does not indicate that the people you refer to as saints have any clue whatsoever of what's going on down here, much less our prayers.
Then where is the Love? How can Love be eternal if the ones in Eternity can't even Love?
quote:
I think you kind of missed the point. If I call a friend to tell him or her to tell my husband something every time I have something to say to my husband, our marital relationship will suffer. It is far better for me to converse with him directly.
Actually, I think you kind of missed my point. If you think heaven and those who stand in the presence of God can be compared to an earthly, fallen, marital relationship, plus a man-friend, maybe we'll never understand each other. God is much bigger, merciful, and loving than your husband, Zhi.
quote:
As for being tolerant, God Himself has stated that He is a jealous God.
Please explain how a God Who promised to share His very Life with His disciples is "jealous" as you interpret "jealous." How do you mesh "jealous God" with a God full of "grace and Truth?" Boggles my mind.
quote:
You do? And yet here you are gossiping behind their backs. Interesting.
"Gossiping behing their backs?!" Hardly. Personally, when they all started filing lawsuits against each other, I faced the music and went back to the Church. I have not impugned anyone's character, Zhi and I take offense that you would accuse me of gossip when I have done no such thing.
quote:
The Saints are deceased.
The Saints are alive in Christ, just more perfected than us.
Peace out,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/6/2008 11:55:05 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Then where is the Love? How can Love be eternal if the ones in Eternity can't even Love?
I'm sure they love God and each other. That still does not mean that they can hear us down here, or know what we're doing.
quote:
Actually, I think you kind of missed my point. If you think heaven and those who stand in the presence of God can be compared to an earthly, fallen, marital relationship, plus a man-friend, maybe we'll never understand each other. God is much bigger, merciful, and loving than your husband, Zhi.
I'm sure He is. But He is also a jealous God, and He Himself says so. He does not appreciate worship due Him to be given to another who is not worthy.
quote:
Please explain how a God Who promised to share His very Life with His disciples is "jealous" as you interpret "jealous." How do you mesh "jealous God" with a God full of "grace and Truth?" Boggles my mind.
I keep using the analogy of marriage because we are the bride of Christ. Just as a husband would be righteous in his jealousy if his wife were to act inappropriately with another, God is righteous in being jealous if we give our worship to someone other than Him. He points this out repeatedly in Scripture:
Exodus 34:14 for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
As He says in Isaiah 42:8:
I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images
In Ezekiel 39:25 He says: I shall be jealous for My holy name
Even Paul acknowledges this facet of God, as he says in 1 Corinthians 10:22 "Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?"
Yes, God is full of grace and truth and love, but that does not mean that He will not be righteously jealous and angry if we forsake Him for another, if we give praise due Him alone to another.
quote:
"Gossiping behing their backs?!" Hardly. Personally, when they all started filing lawsuits against each other, I faced the music and went back to the Church. I have not impugned anyone's character, Zhi and I take offense that you would accuse me of gossip when I have done no such thing.
Well, unless they're here on this forum, you're talking about them behind their backs, aren't you?
Truly, it seems you've had an... unusual... experience with Protestants.
Considering your snarky name-calling in the other thread, I'm not so sure about your claim regarding impugning character.
quote:
The Saints are alive in Christ, just more perfected than us.
Their physical bodies are dead. You should know this, your church keeps bits of them in various places. They will not be fully alive again until the resurrection.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 5/7/2008 12:02:43 AM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/7/2008 1:41:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5036
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Who rejoices in Heaven when a sinner comes to repentence?
Angels.
"Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.""
Thank you, Mr. Kelman.
Now, who is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God?
Sigh...check out the meaning of "in the presence" - Enopion. If and when you do you will find it means: before a) of occupied place: in that place which is before, or over against, opposite, any one and towards which another turns his eyes.
It is translated "before" 64 times, "in (one's) presence", 2 times ; "in (one's) sight", 5 times ; "in the presence of", 7 times ; "in the sight of", 16 times;
And if and when you check out the other places it is translated "in the presence of", you will again find its more than obvious meaning.
.....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. -Revelation 14:10
We seem to be misunderstanding one another, and I certainly did not mean to cause you to sigh.
Thank you very much for the definition of enopion, but I could have saved you the bother--I have many reference materials of my own within arms' reach, not to mention my husband's own supply of them a few steps away, and the Internet as well.
Be that as it may, I was not asking what "in the presence of" means--I was asking who was doing the rejoicing.
You have not answered this question.
"There is great rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God..." Who is rejoicing?
The first time I said "angels", the second time I said "angels". How many more times would you like me to answer the same question?
It appears you think you are in possession of some particular knowledge with regard to that verse. Why not reveal what apparently is some great revelation - why so cryptic?
The angels are rejoicing in the presence of.... the angels?
I have always taken this to mean the angels rejoice at the salvation of a sinner. And, that may well be all it means. Still, there is a sense here where the "joy" could be attributed to Christ; and, His joy over the repentence of one sinner is in the presence or before the angels. Or, iow, the angels join in the joy of Christ.
In the other two parables in Luke 15 the "woman" who finds her lost "coin" and the "man" who finds his lost sheep both ask others to rejoice with them. Both the man and the woman would be a picture of Christ who rejoices over the salvation of the one He owns - the repentant sinner.
There are some other passages which lend themselves to this idea of God rejoicing over His Bride or the ones He loves.
As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5
The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/7/2008 11:10:38 AM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
quote:
Considering your snarky name-calling in the other thread, I'm not so sure about your claim regarding impugning character
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/7/2008 3:02:13 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 672
Joined: 1/3/2008
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Zhi
I think its a totally different when one grows up with these prayers and hears them repeatedly, in the correct context the words don't seam as shocking as they do to those Christians not familiar with the practice read them. (Same with relics) Its the Christian behind the prayers that make them what they are, its impossible for anyone else to really understand the personal heartfelt conversation behind the words of a prayer.
I agree with you (and so does the Catholic Church) on the worship being reserved for God.
I have given my reasons as to why I think the Saints can hear us. I have had to many of these prayers of mine answered to ever think it a waste of time. But I understand your point and agree if I didn't think they could hear us and take those petitions to God then yes it would be a waste of time.
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/7/2008 6:25:23 PM
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schupfNoodle
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Maybe you're dissensitized to it already. I googled the words 'Mary prayer' and here's an example:
Prayers to Mary ~
The Memorare
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,
implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.
Amen.
This is not asking Mary to pray for us, but a prayer to her. Asking her to do things by her power. This totally excludes God.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 4:52:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I agree with you (and so does the Catholic Church) on the worship being reserved for God. The problem is prayer IS worship regardless of the "degrees" RC wishes to impose hoping to somehow lessen the offence.
From the "Glories of Mary" by St Alphonsus Liguori:
"The whole Trinity, O Mary, gave you a name above every name, after that of your Divine Son, so that in your name every knee should bend, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth."
Only Jesus Christ has a name above every name, at least according to God. And when "every knee should bend" it will be before Christ - not Mary, again, at least according to God. This entire prayer clearly depicts worship of Mary and is, quite frankly, an effront to God.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 9:37:48 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
This is not asking Mary to pray for us, but a prayer to her. Asking her to do things by her power. This totally excludes God.
Did you miss this line "or sought your intercession "
The Memorare, from the Latin 'remember' which is the first word in the Latin translation, was traditionally thought to have been composed by the Cisterian St. Bernard of Clairvaux. It emphasizes Mary's role as intercessor.
One of the oldest verifiable prayers to Mary is thought to be the "Sub Tuum" This prayer was found on a 3rd century papyrus in Egypt, and it emphasizes the Blessed Virgin's role as intercessor.
Asking for Mary's intercession is a practice which has been with the church from the beginning. The VERY beginning lets not forget, that fist miracle was done after the intersession of Mary, and lets also remember that in that first miracle Mary went to her Son, not her own power to answer the request.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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