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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 9:55:49 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The problem is prayer IS worship regardless of the "degrees" RC wishes to impose hoping to somehow lessen the offence.
Catholics pray to God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - as the Source of ALL blessings. We pray to the saints in the sense that we ask them to pray with us and for us, to be near us in love and friendship, and to lead us closer to Jesus. This is seen in two prayers frequently said by Catholics. In the Lord's Prayer, we ask God for what only God can give: "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses." In the Hail Mary, we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners."
There is no worshipful act towards the saints in asking for their prayers - anymore then it is a worshipful act to ask each other here on earth to pray for us.
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 10:15:11 AM
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RyansWife
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Two words: Ancestral Worship.
Jesus is my mediator.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 10:34:23 AM
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Zhi
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Well, you say that, but practice seems so much different.
In 1862, a Spanish schoolmaster was hanged for heresy after substituting "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" during school prayers.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, he gave Mary all the credit for saving him and made a pilgrimage to Fatima to thank her personally, kissing her feet.
Here's the Salve Regina.
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
In Alfonsus de Ligouri's book "The Glories of Mary", it is claimed that Mary rules over half the kingdom of God (the mercy half, Jesus rules over the justice half). The book actually claims that there is no salvation outside of Mary. For this work, de Liguori was canonized as a Saint and declared a "doctor of the Church".
Pope Pius IX said "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." He also said "For God has committed to Mary the treasure of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary."
Pope John Paul II said "Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate". His personal motto, translated from Latin, was "Mary, I'm all yours." He asked all Christians to "make room in their daiy lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of salvation".
Father Stephan Scheier said "We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her!" The Catholic Church has taken out an advertisement to that effect in several newspapers.
Pope Leo XIII stated that "she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race".
Pope Pius X called her "dispenser of all favors which Jesus acquired for us by His death"
Pope Benedict XV said "we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ"
Pope Pius XII stated "as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with Him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces with flow from the Redemption".
The Catechism claims that Mary is the "Co-Mediator". It claims that "God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth." "She is to be praised with special devotion". Interestingly, Queen of Heaven is the title of several pagan goddesses, and has been since Old Testament times.
People who die wearing the Brown Scapular in honor of Mary are guaranteed salvation.
These practices and statements of faith and power are the basis for praying to Mary.
Does any of that look an awful lot like worship and credit due only to God to anyone else?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:08:49 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Well, you say that, but practice seems so much different.
In 1862, a Spanish schoolmaster was hanged for heresy after substituting "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" during school prayers.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, he gave Mary all the credit for saving him and made a pilgrimage to Fatima to thank her personally, kissing her feet.
Here's the Salve Regina.
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
In Alfonsus de Ligouri's book "The Glories of Mary", it is claimed that Mary rules over half the kingdom of God (the mercy half, Jesus rules over the justice half). The book actually claims that there is no salvation outside of Mary. For this work, de Liguori was canonized as a Saint and declared a "doctor of the Church".
Pope Pius IX said "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." He also said "For God has committed to Mary the treasure of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary."
Pope John Paul II said "Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate". His personal motto, translated from Latin, was "Mary, I'm all yours." He asked all Christians to "make room in their daiy lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of salvation".
Father Stephan Scheier said "We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her!" The Catholic Church has taken out an advertisement to that effect in several newspapers.
Pope Leo XIII stated that "she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race".
Pope Pius X called her "dispenser of all favors which Jesus acquired for us by His death"
Pope Benedict XV said "we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ"
Pope Pius XII stated "as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with Him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces with flow from the Redemption".
The Catechism claims that Mary is the "Co-Mediator". It claims that "God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth." "She is to be praised with special devotion". Interestingly, Queen of Heaven is the title of several pagan goddesses, and has been since Old Testament times.
People who die wearing the Brown Scapular in honor of Mary are guaranteed salvation.
These practices and statements of faith and power are the basis for praying to Mary.
Does any of that look an awful lot like worship and credit due only to God to anyone else?
Please read you writing very carefully. Pope John thank Mary for saving him and to allow him on his journey. But God is the only author of life and breath. I was watching one of your priest while I was laid up. He said that we looked at Mary in the same eyes. If that be the case either that priest lied or your famous pope lied.
Mary was has human as anyone else here on this planet, Was used in order in which to have the salvation of man kind enter in the world. Just as Sarah wife of Abraham who if did not lay with her husband would not have had the Saviour born some years latter.
I have come to the conclusion after reading what you have written Your Eternal life does not come from God but from a woman.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:11:09 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
In Alfonsus de Ligouri's book "The Glories of Mary", it is claimed that Mary rules over half the kingdom of God (the mercy half, Jesus rules over the justice half). The book actually claims that there is no salvation outside of Mary. For this work, de Liguori was canonized as a Saint and declared a "doctor of the Church".
Sorry but should have been consider a nut on a tree for a squirrel to eat.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:13:12 AM
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mcleod
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And I thought I was on drugs;
quote:
Father Stephan Scheier said "We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her!" The Catholic Church has taken out an advertisement to that effect in several newspapers
But maybe not as bad.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:18:31 AM
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JesKlu
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Hello Zhi!
The reason Catholics pray to Mary so much, from what I have read and partaken in as a devout Catholic, is that they do not view Christ as a merciful Mediator, but only a dreadful judge and avenger. Hence, the Catholics believe Christ is only there to judge, not to be merciful. So, someone must be merciful, and Mary is though of to be merciful. Hence why in some of their very common prayers to Mary, they call her Mother of Mercy. They don't view Jesus as mercy, only Mary.
25] Here and there this form of absolution is used: The passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the most blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints, be to thee for the remission of sins. Here the absolution is pronounced on the supposition that we are reconciled and accounted righteous not only by the merits of Christ, but also by the merits of the other saints. 26] Some of us have seen a doctor of theology dying, for consoling whom a certain theologian, a monk, was employed. He pressed on the dying man nothing but this prayer: Mother of grace, protect us from the enemy; receive us in the hour of death
27] Granting that the blessed Mary prays for the Church, does she receive souls in death, does she conquer death [the great power of Satan], does she quicken? What does Christ do if the blessed Mary does these things? Although she is most worthy of the most ample honors, nevertheless she does not wish to be made equal to Christ, but rather wishes us to consider and follow her example [the example of her faith and her humility]. 28] But the subject itself declares that in public opinion the blessed Virgin has succeeded altogether to the place of Christ. Men have invoked her, have trusted in her mercy through her have desired to appease Christ, as though He were not a Propitiator, but, only a dreadful judge and avenger. http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/20_saints.html
The book of Concord makes some good points on what the Catholics do when they invoke the Saints. And what they are doing, mainly, is that they are putting Mary and the saints, especially Mary, in the place of Christ.
I hope I have added to your knowledge of what they are doing. I remember I used to do all that too, but I remember, when I was a devout Marian (because that's what I was), even when I was doing all that, I knew something wasn't right on what I was doing. Kindof what Martin Luther experienced after he finished the indulgence he gave to his grandfather. When he was on top of those steps, he thought to himself "How do I know if this is so?"
Your sister in Chrit Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:21:21 AM
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Zhi
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Understand that I greatly respect Mary. She had a great deal of faith. But, I cannot ascribe to her what Catholics ascribe to her. I cannot find a reason to pray to her. In Scripture, she had great faith, but she also doubted at times, and she was just as human as I am.
Frankly, as a woman, I kind of wish I could. Sometimes I feel like a second class citizen because I wonder where women fit in, with all parts of the Godhead being male, with church leadership being prescribed as male, etc. But, the reality is that I cannot find any support for it whatsoever in Scripture. And, the reality is that as someone who has trusted in Christ for salvation, God has taken me in as His adopted daughter, and I suppose that should be enough for anyone.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:34:45 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
Granting that the blessed Mary prays for the Church, does she receive souls in death, does she conquer death [the great power of Satan], does she quicken? What does Christ do if the blessed Mary does these things?
He (Jesus) must be the one of the greats deceivers of all time. If Mary recieves souls from death.
In revelation the only one who cou;ld open the seal in heaven wasn't Mary But The lamb who gave his life for us.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:36:51 AM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Understand that I greatly respect Mary. She had a great deal of faith. But, I cannot ascribe to her what Catholics ascribe to her. I cannot find a reason to pray to her. In Scripture, she had great faith, but she also doubted at times, and she was just as human as I am.
Frankly, as a woman, I kind of wish I could. Sometimes I feel like a second class citizen because I wonder where women fit in, with all parts of the Godhead being male, with church leadership being prescribed as male, etc. But, the reality is that I cannot find any support for it whatsoever in Scripture. And, the reality is that as someone who has trusted in Christ for salvation, God has taken me in as His adopted daughter, and I suppose that should be enough for anyone.
I know, I was trying to make that point. I'm not Catholic, I'm Lutheran. Lutherans do not pray to Mary because we do not see any justification for it anywhere in scripture.
The reason why I quoted the Book of Concord is that it makes a good point. Meaning, the Lutheran Confessions are saying that the reason why they go to her is that they think of her as merciful, and Christ is just the wrathful judge. I don't see Jesus as being that at all. And neither did Philip Melancthon when he wrote the defense of the Augsburg Confession. He was saying to his opponents, who in this case were the Catholics, that we should not ascribe to the saints and Mary what should be ascribed to Christ alone. And the Catholics to this day are doing just that.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/8/2008 11:43:50 AM >
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:41:07 AM
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Zhi
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Oh, that wasn't meant to address your post, it was just a general observation. ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 7:00:15 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
The book of Concord makes some good points on what the Catholics do when they invoke the Saints. And what they are doing, mainly, is that they are putting Mary and the saints, especially Mary, in the place of Christ. You are either mis-reading this (most likely) or mis-representing this (less likely). The place of Christ is heaven and that's where Mary and the Saints are. It doesn't mean "switch places" or "substitute', like you are representing it to be. Mary and the Saints ARE in the place of Christ, and that place is called heaven.
I disagree entirely with your first paragraph as well. Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace. Catholics don't take an adversarial view of Jesus. The importance of the example of the Saints is to show us how we might too cooperate with Grace and what Grace can do in the soul of humans - humans just like you and me. Grace is not available to us without Christ, so to say that he is not needed is to mis-represent what is essential and what is instructed about Salvation by the Church. It is Grace that makes Mary and the Saints holy and Grace is only available from God, through faith in Christ. Mary's prayers for us are only valid because of her faith in Jesus, her Son.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/8/2008 7:06:28 PM >
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/8/2008 11:08:33 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello Doghouse!
I have a question then. What does it mean, about Mary, when she is called Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 6:52:30 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
I have a question then. What does it mean, about Mary, when she is called Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix? "cum" in Latin means "with" - as in "cum laude" (with honors); it where the spanish get "con" as in "chili con queso" (chili with cheese), and it is the root of "co-" as used in your question.
What it recognizes is that God put man on the critical path of his/her own redemption by requiring His Son to be born of one of these creatures. The Son is begotten, not made - one in being with the Father (from the Nicene Creed). It also recognizes that the Son of Man was born from but a single woman, and that Mary was the woman who filled this role.
So in this case - it means "with" as in co-operating with grace, and co-operating with God and His plan. This apparently as God wanted it.
Here's a quote from THIS article;
"It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.
Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus."
This what Catholics are instructed and in my experince this understanding of Mary amongst Catholics is pretty uniform. If you missed this in your instruction growing up in the Church, then I suppose your teachers were less than par.
I think non-Catholic Americans have hangups about this because of American use of "co-" as in "co-Chairman" or maybe even "co-pilot". In the case of both of these, the "co-" identifies subordination to the "chairman" or the "pilot" - the co-pilot is there to assist, but the pilot is responsible for your flight. We Americans (and Canadians) are unique in providing a translation of "equal" in this, from the Hollywood notion of "co-star" from the movies, which technically is incorrect use of the term.
Just as in Jesus's case - He could not birth Himself, He had to have Mary to assist. But absent Jesus - Mary can do nothing for us at all, and has no particular standing. Jesus saves - Mary helped God make that possible for us by cooperating with His grace. That's all there is to "co-redemptrix".
Europeans have no such hangups, because they understand "co-" or "con-" in its Latin root sense. So this is a uniquly North American issue for the most part.
I also note that some Catholics like myself wish the Vatican would use a more vulgar (common) form of English for its translations to avoid such controversy and confusion. Documents generated by the Vatican are done so in Latin, because scholars everywhere can universally translate what has been communicated into local languages for the laity, so anything you read from the Vatican regarding faith and practice is a translation from Latin into your local language.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/9/2008 7:00:41 AM >
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 7:11:05 AM
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Doghouse
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I'll add this too, for what its worth...
I believe the greatest inspiration for Christians in sticking to their faith during trials comes from the passion of our Lord as He was wrongfully imprisoned, abandoned by those closest to Him, denied by Peter, tortured, humiliated and then crucified. There is nothing that comes anywhere close to this example of how Christians are to dig in and stick to their faith and their hope, especially in times of strife or oppression.
I believe this vision of the passion and reflection on it is indeed what inspired the martyrs of the Church and inspired many, if not most of the folks we Catholics now recognize as Saints. When I hear the cheeky "what would Jesus do?", my mind always wanders to the passion and the answer "He would accept and bear every evil and sin of commission and ommission that we humans are capable of dishing out, including taking the life of an innocent, and turn the other cheek - and rise on the third day - defeating death and showing all of us how insignificant and trivial earthly power, property, and interests really are...".
But...having said that, I believe that the Saints can be examples of how facets of the passion of Christ can be manifested in different times and in different circumstances than the purely Scriptural (or Deposit of Faith, if you are Catholic) example of Christ's passion. So - I accept the validity of reflection on the behavior, choices and examples of the Saints as to how we might reflect the particular facets of Christ's passion in our own lives and our own circumstances.
I believe that if I told this story to 100 Catholics, I would get a positive nod of the head from everyone of them, that this is indeed where the understanding of the example of the Saints and invoking their assistance in our lives has evolved to for the mature Roman Catholic Christian.
Is this not a valid practice for Protestants, as well?
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 7:27:57 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Frankly, as a woman, I kind of wish I could. Sometimes I feel like a second class citizen because I wonder where women fit in, with all parts of the Godhead being male, with church leadership being prescribed as male, etc. I think if you really understood how Catholics viewed Mary and her role, you would find a wonderful addition to your personal practice of faith addressing this issue - and you wouldn't even have to become Catholic to practice it...
God couldn't provide us a Savior without a woman involved. Why is this? Its probably a question that bears more reflection by all of us. Maybe this makes woman, as people, more "vital" and men more "expendable", or even "accessory". One of the reasons for the male Priesthood in the Catholic Church is the sense of "mission" - men are expendable and are therefore the ones to send to hostile territories to gain converts. Woman are more nurturing and vital - so the role in the Church is different for them. I believe that the example of Mary, in a way, defines woman as being more "noble" than men, with men being more "vulgar", as an example. These examples come from the understanding of the relationship of Mary to humanity, Mary to God, and Mary to Jesus. They also come from years of observing men and women - that tends to reinforce this notion.
God could have decreed that His Son would drop out of the sky, or grow as a tree and then turn into a person, or any one of a number of different varieties of "creation". He didn't. From the earliest prophets, God revealed to humanity that His Son would be born from that humanity - thus making a woman responsible for giving us our Savior, because that's the only way that humans are born - by woman.
Its worthy of reflection from time to time to remember all the things that woman can do that men are incapable of doing or are ill-suited or ill-equipped to do. That is the one point of the validity of reflecting on the example of Mary - to remind us of who we are and how God created us.
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 9:53:31 AM
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mcleod
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Say doghouse Jesus said to a crowd of people one day in the past. That before Abraham I WAS. Which meant before your woman god Mary. Jesus the Christ was already here in form of life.
Or he wasn't is the greatest liar when he had John in Revelation write that he is Alpha and Omega ,who is and was is to come, the ALMIGHTY.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 9:58:53 AM
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mcleod
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Just like Noah was use to save a few in his time .So was Mary used, and quite bowing down to another human beiing. Or go to great things to make her out to be a god.
Nero during the Time of Paul said that he was god didn't mean that the people of the time needed to bend an knee to him.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 10:34:32 AM
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Zhi
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Well, I would agree to some extent, Doghouse, that Protestants have sort of thrown out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to some of the Saints. The Protestant view (at least the one I grew up with) tends to be "Well, the New Testament happened, and after that... 2000 years later here we are! Yay!" It misses out somewhat on the legacy of faith demonstrated by various Christians throughout the millenia since the NT happened. I think people like Saint Francis and Saint Augustine do deserve some recognition and respect for their faithfulness and actions, in the same way that we respect and recognize great men of the Old Testament, like Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, etc.
I think the main reason that's not done, though, is because Protestants are skittish regarding the level of veneration that the people holding the record books about the Saints (the Catholics) tend to ascribe to them. Especially the part about praying to the Saints... because really that goes against everything Protestants believe about how we are to relate to God, as has been thoroughly demonstrated by this thread.
Personally I hope to teach my daughter about great saints of history without the part where you have to pray to them. I might have to glean and write my own material for it though, I'm afraid.
I think the difficult part for a Protestant, though, is determining how much veneration is "too much". That's why the issue tends to be avoided entirely. Obviously, from our point of view, praying to them is "too much", but is celebrating their holidays too much? Is stating they are "patrons" of something too much? I'm not sure on that. I would hope that merely noting their existence wouldn't be. What about lessons on them in Sunday School? It's a difficult question, because they aren't in the Bible, so it's not like we have an "official story" in a God-breathed context to give our kids.
Back to Mary, though, I believe the Protestant take on it is that if Mary had said "no", God would have picked someone else. People being unwilling to do what God tells them (see Moses, Jonah, etc) has never stopped Him from accomplishing His purpose. Granted Protestants don't believe that Mary is sinless, or that there was anything whatsoever special about her other than her choice of faith... which is part of the reason we don't see her as someone to be prayed to. I think it comes from our view that Mary, and in fact any saint or biblical patriarch, is only special because God decided they would be, and did a great work in them. As such, they are no different from the rest of us, except in the fact that God DID do a great work in them, but by His power, not theirs (and sometimes despite theirs). So, while Mary's immediate faith and obedience and role in God's salvation is commended, the fact that she was chosen instead of someone else is not seen as a commendation to Mary, but as an act of God. As such, it's difficult for us to see her as a co-much of anything (even if considered a lesser partner), and it's impossible to see her as a mediator or intercessor for us in prayer.
I hope that an explanation of how Protestants (or at least myself and all the Protestants I've discussed the matter with) view the saints and Mary helps you understand why it's so difficult for us to fathom the veneration given to the saints and Mary by the RCC, and why it's so difficult for us to comprehend why anyone would want to pray to them (in addition to the fact that we don't really think they could hear us anyway).
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 12:00:36 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1102
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
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Pretty good summation, Zhi.
I myself agree that the example set by certain of the saints IS a most wonderful example for all of us to observe. We can learn a lot from them. Sometimes we even celebrate the holidays surrounding them. Yet there is nothing in scripture that says they can hear us, yet at the same time, scripture gives us a number of reasons that they cannot hear us.
Scripture condemns people praying to spiritual entities other than God (Triune, obviously.) This practice is not pleasing to God. When you are praying to these saints, no matter the result desired, you are doing something that God has clearly condemned. It really doesn't matter that you are asking them to pray to God for you, or to grant your petition of their own 'power', they are not to be invoked, as they are spiritual beings other than God. I really don't know what is so difficult to understand here... When tempted to engage in idolatry, just say no... Same as you hopefully would in regards to adultery. (However, He says the idolatry is more displeasing to Him than adultery. Hmmm... Maybe that's why those priests are OK with doing what they do to those kids... It's not as displeasing to God as idolizing Mary and the saints...)
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 1:20:13 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 437
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Romans 8:27
27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Galatians 3:20
20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 12:24
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/9/2008 1:37:28 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4626
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Catholics don't take an adversarial view of Jesus.
Well maybe they should since Jesus said;
(Rev 2:15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
And the RCC definately fits the definition of "Nicolaitans".
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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