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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 2:39:15 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
There is no worshipful act towards the saints in asking for their prayers - anymore then it is a worshipful act to ask each other here on earth to pray for us. I know that's what they impress upon; but, it is a lie. Prayer to a spiritual being is worship - about that there is no doubt. The scriptural mandate to "pray one for another" has nothing to do with praying to saints or Mary. A simply reading of the verse attests to that fact.
And, if one were honest with one's self, it would be obvious that asking a friend to pray for you is not the equivalent of praying to saints and Mary. Do you kneel before an idol of your friend and with great devotion implore him with your petitions? Do you call your friend your advocate, your hope, your refuge? Do you call your friend blessed and holy?
No, in practice, what is being done is worshipping another spirit being other than God. You worship her because you pray to her, you kneel before her and you ascribe titles, honors and abilities to her which belong to God alone.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 2:41:28 AM
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kelman
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quote:
"It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. It is also important to note what the word "with" means:
a) In the company of; accompanying:
b) Next to; alongside of: .......or
c) By the means or agency of
quote:
The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Of course it does exactly that as can clearly be seen from the quote below. Without Mary, Jesus Christ could not have been born.... that is how "unique" RC sees Mary is. And that makes her, at the very least, on an equal level with Christ.
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Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? It's always the same. Declare one thing then in the next breath delare the opposite. Mary's not equal to God; but, without her God would have been unable to fulfill His plan for man's salvation. WOW...never mind the "fourth" person of the Godhead; but, apparently now ever more powerful than God.
How absurd to propose that the Creator's plans can be thwarted by His creation. Mary was a saved person and as such desired to be obedient to God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 2:43:31 AM
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kelman
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quote:
Well, I would agree to some extent, Doghouse, that Protestants have sort of thrown out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to some of the Saints. Not at all. It may appear to be the case to some; but, only because it pales in comparison to the unrestrained excessive adoration given to Mary and the saints by RC.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 8:16:34 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 857
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Maybe this site talks about the "Nicolaitans". Ironically, the Nicolaitanes were practicing a form of "imputed righteousness" faith that many Christians accept today - that is that as long as one claims "Jesus, Lord and Savior", one is "in the fold" and is not required to effort, action or discipline towards a demonstration of that belief. As long as the profession was there, behavior didn't matter, and if one wanted to raid the food offerings to idols, or engage in any other licentious behavior, they were covered by the imputed righteousness available via the mere profession of faith.
The "Gospel of Prosperity" and "Word of Faith" are Nicolaitanes Doctrines...practically down to the last jot and tittle. That we may ignore charity and mercy in favor of self-indulgence and ego-centrism.
What this has to do with the veneration of Saints escapes me...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/10/2008 8:25:03 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 9:26:10 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Personally I hope to teach my daughter about great saints of history without the part where you have to pray to them. I might have to glean and write my own material for it though, I'm afraid.
Hi Zhi -
There is a saints book for kids that talks just about their lives, and not about praying to them. I looked yesterday to see if I could find it but I think its in one of the boxes that didn't make the move with us a few months ago. If I find it I'll post the name. You can also find coloring sheets on line and little blurbs about their lives that I don't think you would have to edit to much.
Your post made me smile and think about my mom and about the book she edited for me. It was a book about the 1st day of school, were the little girl in the book HATED kindergarten and my mom edited it to talk about how much she LOVED school, I never noticed as a child that for loving school the pictures in the book showed a MAD and Sad little girl.
Happy Mothers Day!
Mary
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 5/10/2008 10:34:04 AM >
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 10:23:44 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I know that's what they impress upon; but, it is a lie. Prayer to a spiritual being is worship - about that there is no doubt. The scriptural mandate to "pray one for another" has nothing to do with praying to saints or Mary. A simply reading of the verse attests to that fact.
And, if one were honest with one's self, it would be obvious that asking a friend to pray for you is not the equivalent of praying to saints and Mary. Do you kneel before an idol of your friend and with great devotion implore him with your petitions? Do you call your friend your advocate, your hope, your refuge? Do you call your friend blessed and holy?
No, in practice, what is being done is worshipping another spirit being other than God. You worship her because you pray to her, you kneel before her and you ascribe titles, honors and abilities to her which belong to God alone.
If I feel that what I am doing is not worship then it isn't. If I thought that putting a picture of my cat out in my house was worshiping him, then it is - even if people told me that's crazy having a picture of your cat isn't worshiping him, if it is to me it is for me, in the same way if an action isn't worshipful to me then it isn't for me. Worship is personal between the worshiper and the worshiped, and no one besides them can accurately judge its sincerity and meaning. So how can you have no doubt about what praying to the saints means to me?
What is Prayer? Again another personal feeling, for me prayer to God and prayer to the saints is different. And I do see it as part of "praying for one another". You don't see the action of asking living people and saints to pray for us as the same, fine you don't have to. BTW I don't kneel before idols because statues of the saints are not images of a God to me nor are the statues themselves the objects of devotion which I think pretty much covers the definition of an idol. (I don't even watch American Idol  ) There's a whole thread on statues but you know that.
Implore -to ask earnestly, whats wrong with earnestly asking someone to pray for you?
Advocate - one who argues or pleads for a cause. When I ask my friend to pray for me I ask them to pray for my cause so yes they are my advocate.
Are our friends not our hope and our refuge, are they not people who hope with us, who pray with hope that our prayers will be answered, and our are friends not a safe place a place of refuge a place of protection from danger and trouble, a place we turn in need.
Blessed and Holy, well I believe the saints are in heaven so I call them blessed and holy. I ask my friends on earth who have a faith in God to pray for me, I call them Christians - not blessed and holy although I pray when they die they will be, these words for me are reserved for those who have died.
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/10/2008 6:42:59 PM
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Papa-san
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You speak, out loud or silently, to spirit beings, and assume that they are going to actually do something for you. This violates God's Law. It isn't even slightly difficult to see.
To practice this is proof of either a limited understanding of the Bible, or an indifference to God's word that says to Him that you don't believe that He has spoken it. Neither is a mindset I would be courageous enough to have...
Playing with fire...
Not me, and not mine.
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/11/2008 2:03:34 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
If I feel that what I am doing is not worship then it isn't. Emotions have nothing to do with fact. Many people "feel" what they're doing is not wrong; but, in fact, it may be very very wrong. Most especially, we don't judge God's Word by feelings.
quote:
So how can you have no doubt about what praying to the saints means to me? I didn't say I knew what it meant to you. I said the practice of praying to spirit beings is worship regardless of what you're told to the contrary.
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What is Prayer? Again another personal feeling, for me prayer to God and prayer to the saints is different. And I do see it as part of "praying for one another". Prayer is prayer and it is a form of worship. You may see it as "praying for one another"; but, it most emphatically is not referring to saints in heaven. The verse says: "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." Are the saints confessing their faults to you? No, James is writing to the dispersed Jews in this passage. He is not speaking of saints in heaven so this offers no support for praying to spirit beings.
quote:
BTW I don't kneel before idols because statues of the saints are not images of a God to me nor are the statues themselves the objects of devotion which I think pretty much covers the definition of an idol. An idol is an image used as an object of worship. Again, kneeling before and praying to a statue, idol, image is a form of worship.
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Implore -to ask earnestly, whats wrong with earnestly asking someone to pray for you? Because this necessitates praying to spirit beings; and, prayer is a form of worship.
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Are our friends not our hope and our refuge,... No, they are not mine and I hope they are not yours. We have only one Hope and Refuge - Jesus Christ.
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I ask my friends on earth who have a faith in God to pray for me, I call them Christians... You do not kneel before your friends imploring an answer to your petitions. But, that is precisely what is done before the idol or image of the saints and Mary. So the two are not comparable. One is making a request of a friend on earth; the other is praying to a spirit being before whom you kneel, ascribe titles, honors and abilities which belong to God alone.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/11/2008 10:27:27 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Back to Mary, though, I believe the Protestant take on it is that if Mary had said "no", God would have picked someone else. People being unwilling to do what God tells them (see Moses, Jonah, etc) has never stopped Him from accomplishing His purpose. Granted Protestants don't believe that Mary is sinless, or that there was anything whatsoever special about her other than her choice of faith... which is part of the reason we don't see her as someone to be prayed to. I think it comes from our view that Mary, and in fact any saint or biblical patriarch, is only special because God decided they would be, and did a great work in them. As such, they are no different from the rest of us, except in the fact that God DID do a great work in them, but by His power, not theirs (and sometimes despite theirs). So, while Mary's immediate faith and obedience and role in God's salvation is commended, the fact that she was chosen instead of someone else is not seen as a commendation to Mary, but as an act of God. As such, it's difficult for us to see her as a co-much of anything (even if considered a lesser partner), and it's impossible to see her as a mediator or intercessor for us in prayer.
Smokin' HOT post dude !!! 
Great explanation of how God "blessed" Mary-
If God condones praying to dead people, then
why oh why did Jesus not perform such a task ?
Shouldn't Jesus have prayed to Elijah, Moses,
Samson, David, Abraham...that would be silly.
Jesus was incarnate, both God and man.
Jesus is our Perfect example and He never
prayed to OR told us to pray to the dead.
To the 12 ? John ? Peter ?...NO-NO-NO !
Jesus ALWAYS did what pleased The Father !!!
Jesus never told us to pray to Mary/saints.
Jesus never prayed to dead or living folk.
Jesus DID say, "When you pray..."
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/11/2008 9:05:40 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Jesus was incarnate, both God and man.
Jesus is our Perfect example and He never
prayed to OR told us to pray to the dead.
To the 12 ? John ? Peter ?...NO-NO-NO !
He never rode a motorcycle either.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 12:55:02 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Mary's role was unique.
No more unique than anyone else... She wasn't anyone special, what God did with her was special... Who she gave birth to was unique...
quote:
If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus."
God's plan (hatched before the foundation of the world) hinged on Mary's choice? Christ being the same, yesterday, and forever seems to step all over any idea that the Savior was ever in danger of not being...
Mary plays no role in anyone's salvation, not even her own...
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Just as in Jesus's case - He could not birth Himself, He had to have Mary to assist. But absent Jesus - Mary can do nothing for us at all, and has no particular standing. Jesus saves - Mary helped God make that possible for us by cooperating with His grace. That's all there is to "co-redemptrix".
It wasn't a need, but how God ordained things... The idea that God needs something it ludicrous... He didn't have to have her assist, He ordained she would based on how He wanted things to fall into place, not based on possible outcomes or the fickle will of man..
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 1:02:40 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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Vatican II - Regarding Mary...
“Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son, as the most holy mother of God who was involved in the mysteries of Christ: she is rightly honoured by a special cult in the Church. ... The sacred synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries be highly esteemed, and that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the cult images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed”
“Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”
“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
...when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice.
I'd pray to her too if I believe the above...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 1:35:18 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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This isn't asking for prayers from others... This is praying to them as if they have the means to change things...
“Mary of the New Advent, we implore your protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting [World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world ... the whole world to YOU” (August 1993, Denver, Colorado, Pope John Paul II).
Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 3:31:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Jesus was incarnate, both God and man.
Jesus is our Perfect example and He never
prayed to OR told us to pray to the dead.
To the 12 ? John ? Peter ?...NO-NO-NO !
He never rode a motorcycle either.
Not particularly relevant. Now, if all the Apostles and disciples were cruising around Jerusalem on their Harleys but Jesus always walked - you might have a point.
Rather, in hundreds upon hundreds of prayers found in the Bible - not one is addressed to anyone but God. With one notable exception - those who prayed to pagan gods. In addition, no where in Scripture is there any suggestion that we are permitted to pray to any but God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 5:52:59 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix I think I previously explained Mary's role in the critical path of salvation ... and attempted to correctly define the terms used by the Church to describe this role.
Why did God put humanity on the critical path of its own redemption? Would our redeemer have been made flesh for us (a necessity of the mechanism of salvation, the way we understand it) had Mary not cooperated with grace in accepting the role of Mother of Jesus?
Do you understand what "critical path" is? Do we need to define and discuss this? If I want to pour a glass of milk, and the milk is in a plastic jug, then removing the cap to the jug is an action on the critical path to having a glass of milk poured - the pouring may not commence until the cap is removed.
Why would God require that one of the creatures in need of redemption cooperate with grace in order to provide the means of that redemption? How was this cooperation possible, given the "depravity" of man? If Mary had declined, what would have happened? Was it in Mary's power or in the set of options of choice available to decline?
Seriously - I am querying your version of faith as a catechumen would. Please, provide me the answers that your faith provides to these questions.
quote:
This isn't asking for prayers from others... This is praying to them as if they have the means to change things... I believe the Catholics here have provided more-than-adequate explainations as to what this is or isn't. God is the only one who can grant me anything, and He grants me what I need, not what I think I need. All a Saint can do for me is offer their prayers as the prayers of a righteous soul seeking help from God, primarily for me to understand God's will for me. A prayer offered for a Saint's appeal to God on our behalf recognizes God's grace acting on the soul of that Saint and recognizes the results that come from the cooperation of that soul with the grace supplied. In doing so (recognizing grace, and its results), we are indeed worshipping the God from whom the grace flows.
You may further attempt to characterize this as you wish. All who read here may judge the authority by which we post...one as a life-long devout Roman Catholic, and the other as....
If a meaningful dialog regarding this practice is desired, this is the forum to have that discussion. Otherwise - you will join the "hall of fame" on my "blocked" list.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/12/2008 6:09:23 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 11:09:09 AM
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Zhi
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I think in these questions is the very crux of why RCC believe Mary has power and should be prayed to, and Protestants do not.
quote:
Why did God put humanity on the critical path of its own redemption? Would our redeemer have been made flesh for us (a necessity of the mechanism of salvation, the way we understand it) had Mary not cooperated with grace in accepting the role of Mother of Jesus?
God has always used humans in His plan. But, if Mary had not cooperated, then our Redeemer would have still been made flesh for us. God would merely have used someone else, just as He used Aaron when Moses was unwilling to speak. Since Protestants don't require anything special about Mary other than an act of obedience (she doesn't have to be immaculately conceived, she's not sinless, to us), we believe ANY virgin of that time (I say of that time because the timing of Jesus's entry into the world had to be very specific in order to fulfill several prophecies, most crucial being the timing of the Triumphal Entry) and general prophetic bloodline could have given birth to Him.
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Do you understand what "critical path" is? Do we need to define and discuss this? If I want to pour a glass of milk, and the milk is in a plastic jug, then removing the cap to the jug is an action on the critical path to having a glass of milk poured - the pouring may not commence until the cap is removed.
Well, sure. But we're basically saying that God had a whole bunch of jugs of milk available, so opening the cap of *that specific* jug of milk (Mary) was not a critical path to getting the glass of milk poured. He could have chosen another jug of milk.
quote:
Why would God require that one of the creatures in need of redemption cooperate with grace in order to provide the means of that redemption? How was this cooperation possible, given the "depravity" of man? If Mary had declined, what would have happened? Was it in Mary's power or in the set of options of choice available to decline?
God has always chosen people to cooperate with grace in order to provide a means of redemption. Long before Mary, God chose Abraham to set apart a chosen people from which His son would issue. God chose Rebekkah, God chose Rahab, God chose Ruth, God chose David, ALL of these choices led up to Jesus's birth. Not just Mary. If Mary had declined, God would have used someone else.
So, again, Mary should be respected for her obedience, but the only reason she is special is the fact that God made her so.
I'm a creator of things in my own field, I write software. Say I write a particularly good piece of software that fulfills a purpose that we need to fulfill, and my boss says "WOW! Software, you are TERRIFIC! You are great software! Way to interface with that piece of hardware! I'm giving you a raise, software!" and then goes to the software to ask it every time he needs to interface with another, different piece of hardware? How do you think I would feel about that? I can guarantee you that my boss wouldn't manage to interface with any brand new hardware by asking the software to intervene for him... he has to ask me, the coder, to write new software for those new hardware interfaces.
This is what we're doing when we venerate Mary, or a saint, instead of He who created them and sent His power upon them to do great works in them. They don't have the power, it's God who is the source of that power. They don't deserve the credit, it's God who deserves the credit. And, by extension, God alone deserves the prayer... because He is the person who did the great works, and because He is the only one who can help us, because He is the only one with the power.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 5/12/2008 11:18:38 AM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 11:33:15 AM
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mcleod
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I was watching a show where of all place they were in thr city of St Petersburg in Russia. What I could not help but notice they had a statue of Mary there because she was to have made an appearance there sometime.
The next thing I notice was the two priest bowing down to the statue of Mary.
What Bible do you read anyways? In fact let's just use the first two books of the library and may I quote Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol (Mary) in any form of anything in heaven above or on the earth (Mary) beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them, for I am a jealous God.
You guys can come up with all kinds of excuses that they weren't bending their knees to Image of Mary. But when one of my lost friends who rather tell you where to go. Because he believes that 99% of wars are religion related. Says it appears that they didbow to it. Then something is serious wrong with your working faith salvation.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 1:45:57 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
But, if Mary had not cooperated, then our Redeemer would have still been made flesh for us Scripture please? Chapter and verse?
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God would merely have used Someone else, just as He used Aaron when Moses was unwilling to speak. Not the same kettle of fish. Why was Moses unwilling to speak? Read that story back to us here, and then compare it to a theoretical "no thanks" from Mary.
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Well, sure. But we're basically saying that God had a whole bunch of jugs of milk available, so opening the cap of *that specific* jug of milk (Mary) was not a critical path to getting the glass of milk poured. He could have chosen another jug of milk. Again - don't be so sure. If you are a fan of statistics, you could calculate odds for a "yes" out of someone who did not possess grace - made available by faith, and acted upon by obedience to that faith. Stumble on any one of those 3 criteria just mentioned, and we have a 33% chance of being redeemed. Mary's obedience and Mary's faith IS the hope of humanity - this is why she is honored as she is. She represents the hope and desire in people that can lead to deeper faith, obedience to God, and a cooperation with His grace to enact His will for us.
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If Mary had declined, God would have used Someone else. Someone descended from the house of David, at the right time in history, in the right place, with the right health and temperament - hmmm.....
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he has to ask me, the coder, to write new software for those new hardware interfaces. Your example of software negates freewill; it is as if saying Mary had no choice to exercise, or no say in the matter. I believe she did. I think you have to believe she did, otherwise Jesus is "created", not "begotten". It is subtle, but its there - Mary had to cooperate in this venture of her choice enacted by her will. The reason we have to go back to you the programmer for the new software is intellect and will - both of which Mary possessed as well. You are, at this time, unable to code either one of those functions into your software.
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This is what we're doing when we venerate Mary, or a saint, instead of He who created them and sent His power upon them to do great works in them. They don't have the power, it's God who is the source of that power. They don't deserve the credit, it's God who deserves the credit. This is, in fact, exactly what is going on in recognizing and venerating a Saint - recognizing that the Saint could not conjure up grace on his/her own, recognizing that this grace comes from God, its only possible source, and seeking to find ways to cooperate with the grace God supplies us in the same way the Saint cooperated with it. The Saints are not given the credit - God is. The Saints are asked to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous are effective and God is the one that makes the prayer righteous, not themselves or their own will or intellect.
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 1:55:36 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 857
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: online
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It wasn't a need, But how God ordained things... The idea that God needs something it ludicrous... He didn't have to have her assist, He ordained she would based on how He wanted things to fall into place, not based on possible outcomes or the fickle will of man.. I don't follow your logic here...
If God ordained that the Savior would be born of man, and He created man in such a way that he was born of women, then God - by His own definition and decree - REQUIRED a woman to give birth to the Savior. Because of the rules He Himself laid down, He needed a woman to make flesh The Word - any arguments that it didn't work this way?
If the woman - when the time came - could not refuse this task, then God is just creating a little automaton, or a machine, or whatever you want to call it, to force the outcome decreed. This action negates freewill, which is what got us into trouble to begin with in the Garden.
You could just as easily argue that God could have created man with no rational soul - that indeed we are just all little pre-programmed robots with no will and no choice. Therefore, we would not have disobeyed (ever) and we would have no need for redemption. But we can all easily observe that this is not the case. So - some other explanation must be available.
It is what it is. Men and women have rational souls, and have to make choices regarding behaviors, actions, thoughts and words. Mary chose very well - obeying God and cooperating with His grace - in order that the Savior would be born.
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 2:45:15 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 867
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Scripture please? Chapter and verse?
There are over 300 separate prophecies about Jesus. Here's a list with some: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml. If you claim that it's possible that God would have been unable to fulfill those prophecies without Mary's help, then you're basically insinuating that God could be a liar, and that God is NOT a liar solely due to the whim of a teenage peasant girl in deciding she would go along with the plan. Scary.
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Not the same kettle of fish. Why was Moses unwilling to speak? Read that story back to us here, and then compare it to a theoretical "no thanks" from Mary.
Moses was different from Mary mostly in being stubborn. He was stubborn until God had to call up Aaron, as opposed to Mary's "but I'm a virgin, how can this be?" followed by acceptance once the angel explained it to her.
A "no thanks" from Mary would have resulted in you having a different name for the statue in your church, mostly.
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Again - don't be so sure. If you are a fan of statistics, you could calculate odds for a "yes" out of someone who did not possess grace - made available by faith, and acted upon by obedience to that faith. Stumble on any one of those 3 criteria just mentioned, and we have a 33% chance of being redeemed. Mary's obedience and Mary's faith IS the hope of humanity - this is why she is honored as she is. She represents the hope and desire in people that can lead to deeper faith, obedience to God, and a cooperation with His grace to enact His will for us.
No, Jesus's obedience is the hope of humanity.
Mary possessed grace only because God gave it to her. God could have given it to anyone else. You're really limiting God here.
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If Mary had declined, God would have used Someone else.Someone descended from the house of David, at the right time in history, in the right place, with the right health and temperament - hmmm.....
King David's line had been populating for approximately 1,000 years by that point. In a culture without birth control, with teenage marriage, and with a divine mandate of "be fruitful and multiply", that's an awful lot of descendents. God can heal anything health-wise. So, you're left with temperament, in a culture that's been waiting about 300 years for any word from God, waiting for a Messiah, with being His mother the dearest hope of any girl...
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Your example of software negates freewill; it is as if saying Mary had no choice to exercise, or no say in the matter. I believe she did. I think you have to believe she did, otherwise Jesus is "created", not "begotten". It is subtle, but its there - Mary had to cooperate in this venture of her choice enacted by her will. The reason we have to go back to you the programmer for the new software is intellect and will - both of which Mary possessed as well. You are, at this time, unable to code either one of those functions into your software.
I believe she had a say in the matter, I just don't believe that God's entire eternal plan for our salvation would have been completely ruined had she said "no". God is bigger than that, and a much better planner.
So, basically you're stuck with saying that either she had no choice, or that she could have made God a liar and destroyed all His promises and prophecies that He would send a Messiah to redeem us... or she did have a choice, and God could have used someone else had she chosen "no".
I'm not sure what your point is regarding "created" versus "begotten". Scripture is quite clear that Jesus has been a dynamic part of the Godhead from eternity past, and will be to eternity future. Jesus did not come into being the day Mary conceived... he merely took on flesh that day. It's beautifully demonstrated in one of the favorite passages I've ever memorized:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So, again, Mary is only important because God used her in an incredible way. This means God should get our prayers and worship, not Mary. Mary, while certainly a great example of faith, is powerless to help us.
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This is, in fact, exactly what is going on in recognizing and venerating a Saint - recognizing that the Saint could not conjure up grace on his/her own, recognizing that this grace comes from God, its only possible source, and seeking to find ways to cooperate with the grace God supplies us in the same way the Saint cooperated with it. The Saints are not given the credit - God is. The Saints are asked to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous are effective and God is the one that makes the prayer righteous, not themselves or their own will or intellect.
Out of curiosity, is Mary different from a Saint in this?
Otherwise... we've given examples of the worshipful prayers to the saints, we've given examples of the comments regarding the fact that we should worship Mary. We've pointed out there is no proof that saints can hear prayers from us. I am not sure what more we can do here, really.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 5/12/2008 2:51:34 PM >
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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