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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 9:26:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I think I previously explained Mary's role in the critical path of salvation ... and attempted to correctly define the terms used by the Church to describe this role.
I'll take the words of the church over your explanation... Unless of coure you can show you had some hand in writting them...
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Why did God put humanity on the critical path of its own redemption?
I think you need to reconsider your idea of critical path in regards to God and His ways...
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Would our redeemer have been made flesh for us (a necessity of the mechanism of salvation, the way we understand it) had Mary not cooperated with grace in accepting the role of Mother of Jesus?
Apart from the Holy Spirit it might be an issue, but that's wasn't the case...
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Do you understand what "critical path" is? Do we need to define and discuss this? If I want to pour a glass of milk, and the milk is in a plastic jug, then removing the cap to the jug is an action on the critical path to having a glass of milk poured - the pouring may not commence until the cap is removed.
Given the above how on earth did Christ turn water into wine... I am well versed in the wine industry and given "critical path" in regards to wine making it would seem that impossible for Christ to have turned water into wine...
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Why would God require that one of the creatures in need of redemption cooperate with grace in order to provide the means of that redemption?
Because that is what God ordained... Certainly it says a lot of His grace and mercy that simple virgin, born of earthly parents, no better or worse than anyone else could give actual physical birth to Christ...
What is speacial about sendingto earth some never mentioned Queen to birth Jesus?
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How was this cooperation possible, given the "depravity" of man?
As with all things of the Spirit, it's the Spirit that understands, not man alone...
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If Mary had declined, what would have happened?
The above assumes Mary was acting alone... Given the fact that man alone cannot understand things of the Spirit it's a given the Spirit was with her... Her mind alone would regard the whole things as foolishness...
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Was it in Mary's power or in the set of options of choice available to decline?
Only if one believes Mary apart from the Spirit had the means to understand things of the Spirit...
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You may further attempt to characterize this as you wish. All who read here may judge the authority by which we post...one as a life-long devout Roman Catholic...
...who has no idea his or her own church referred to Muslisms as Moslems when he/she attempted to correct my supposed error.
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If a meaningful dialog regarding this practice is desired, this is the forum to have that discussion. Otherwise - you will join the "hall of fame" on my "blocked" list.
You can do as you please... From past experince I know that dialog breaks down to a never ending game of regardless what the church says that's not what we are doing...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 9:37:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
If God ordained that the Savior would be born of man, and He created man in such a way that he was born of women, then God - by His own definition and decree - REQUIRED a woman to give birth to the Savior. Because of the rules He Himself laid down, He needed a woman to make flesh The Word - any arguments that it didn't work this way?
The need for a woman is never in question... The idea the woman was anything special apart from God's choice of her is where the problem starts... The idea that she was special and that's why God chose her is wrong and the idea that she was anything more or less than any other woman is wrong as well...
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If the woman - when the time came - could not refuse this task, then God is just creating a little automaton, or a machine, or whatever you want to call it, to force the outcome decreed. This action negates freewill, which is what got us into trouble to begin with in the Garden.
What "free will" did the 12 have? Christ said rather plainly He chose them(not them, Him) and that He ordained them...
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You could just as easily argue that God could have created man with no rational soul - that indeed we are just all little pre-programmed robots with no will and no choice. Therefore, we would not have disobeyed (ever) and we would have no need for redemption. But we can all easily observe that this is not the case. So - some other explanation must be available.
It is what it is. Men and women have rational souls, and have to make choices regarding behaviors, actions, thoughts and words. Mary chose very well - obeying God and cooperating with His grace - in order that the Savior would be born.
Man is born dead in regards to the Spirit... No mention of "rational souls" in God's word, but of one or two states in regards to mankind... Dead in the flesh, or alive in the Spirit...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 9:52:15 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What "free will" did the 12 have? Christ said rather plainly He chose them(not them, Him) and that He ordained them...
I would say that Judas had plenty of free will. Do you disagree?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 9:55:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
God is the only one who can limit God by defining the rules by which God will play. One of those rules is that His Son be made flesh by being born from a woman. So I am not limiting God, only correctly observing those limits which God has placed on Himself.
What limit didn't God place on Himself? What He ordained didn't limit Him... It's simply what He ordained...
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I believe God is a good planner too, and I believe that His plan included sanctifying Mary, to preserve and keep her prepared for the role that she was meant to play. Furthermore, I believe that there was no revocation nor expiration of This state and of this grace, hence my acceptance of my Roman Catholic instruction in this matter.
Yes, Roman Catholic instruction, not biblical instruction...
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Is Mary a goddess, worthy of worship reserved only for God? Absolutlely not. Is Mary highly honored, respected, revered, lauded and admired? Yes. Is Mary worshipped? No.
Yet the Roman Catholic Church says... "when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice... "
Somebody needs to get on the same page...
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I would rather discuss why St. Anthony can help find lost car keys...
Hard to believe anyone in heaven would bother with lost keys while in the presences of God...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/12/2008 9:59:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
I would say that Judas had plenty of free will. Do you disagree?
The will to do what? Judas did what came natural to him... Could have Judas acted any different? He certaintly showed his true colors... Do you disagree?
John
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/13/2008 3:43:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
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quote:
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But, if Mary had not cooperated, then our Redeemer would have still been made flesh for us
Scripture please? Chapter and verse? Perhaps, you might provide us with "scripture, please" which says the Incarnation could only become a reality with Mary?
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The Saints are not given the credit - God is. The Saints are asked to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous are effective and God is the one that makes the prayer righteous, not themselves or their own will or intellect. The saints and Mary are adored - the very language of the prayers give evidence of this regardless of attempts to distinquish "degrees".
Taking scripture out of context as is done above to help support an unbiblical theory is very bad form. The portion of the verse usurped for this unbiblical personal use is clearly to living members of the church. Unless, of course, you now claim the saints in heaven are confessing their faults to you.
"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
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Mary's obedience and Mary's faith IS the hope of humanity
It is what it is. Men and women have rational souls, and have to make choices regarding behaviors, actions, thoughts and words. Mary chose very well - obeying God and cooperating with His grace - in order that the Savior would be born. How absurd! Only Jesus Christ is the hope of humanity - a fact that is prominently taught throughout Scripture. In fact, this "Hope" is the purpose of Scripture - not Mary - as RC would have us believe. But, the Bible, of course, has little to none authority compared to their "traditions".
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If the woman - when the time came - could not refuse this task, then God is just creating a little automaton, or a machine, or whatever you want to call it, to force the outcome decreed. This action negates freewill, which is what got us into trouble to begin with in the Garden. Huh??? Sounds like you think "free will" is a bad thing...except for Mary, apparently.
The contents of some of these posts prove just how ingrained is the serious problem RCs have with God's sovereignty. Apparently, the only sovereignty they recognize is that of Mary's. They actually think the created controls the Creator.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. -Isaiah 46:10
The steps of a good man are ordered F120 by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. -Psalm 37:23
Imagine seriously proposing that God was just waiting and hoping that Mary "might" say yes...how silly.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/13/2008 7:18:51 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The will to do what? Judas did what came natural to him... Could have Judas acted any different? He certaintly showed his true colors... Do you disagree?
John
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Since sin is always a choice, we always choose to sin, we are never forced to sin, then the answer is yes, Judas could have chosen differently.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/13/2008 12:36:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The will to do what? Judas did what came natural to him... Could have Judas acted any different? He certaintly showed his true colors... Do you disagree?
John
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Since sin is always a choice, we always choose to sin, we are never forced to sin, then the answer is yes, Judas could have chosen differently.
Judas acted according to his nature... Being a slave to sin Judas obeyed his master... Can't serve two masters... He served his, sin... Free will doesn't grant one the understanding of things of the Spirit...
John
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/13/2008 1:46:23 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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I'll take the words of the church over your explanation... They are one and the same. You apparently are satisfied to take what you wish, not what you are given...
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I think you need to reconsider your idea of critical path in regards to God and His ways... In what way? If Mary wasn't human, then God did not put man on the critical path of his own salvation - and I know you are not suggesting that Mary was divine...
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Given the above how on earth did Christ turn water into wine... I am well versed in the wine industry and given "critical path" in regards to wine making it would seem that impossible for Christ to have turned water into wine... Jesus actually used "faith" to turn wine into water, did He not? This gets into a whole other topic about the human and divine nature of Jesus, and how these co-exist in the person of Jesus. Another thread, perhaps.
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Because that is what God ordained... Certainly it says a lot of His grace and mercy that simple virgin, born of earthly parents, no better or worse than anyone else could give actual physical birth to Christ... ...and raise Him and protect Him and guard Him and keep Him warm...Did Mary possess grace to do this, or did she whip this up out of her own goodness? Was she cooperating with grace, aligning her will with that of God's for her, or was she being operated by God, with no freewill? Did she have freewill? Is it the same as the freewill everyone else possesses?
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As with all things of the Spirit, it's the Spirit that understands, not man alone... So...the Spirit makes man aware, but cooperation with this awareness is still required of man, and man may choose to ignore or override this grace, because it is resistible, and works as an influence (per the free will with which men and women are created), rather than a set of rails or a hard, conforming mold? Now you're beginning to sound like a Catholic...
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The above assumes Mary was acting alone... Given the fact that man alone cannot understand things of the Spirit it's a given the Spirit was with her... Her mind alone would regard the whole things as foolishness... Mary was acting with grace - she was unaffected by the pressures and influences of earthly agendas, and she chose to cooperate with grace and bring Jesus to a flesh-and-blood presence in the world. So - where does grace come from? What does it do for us if we yield to it? How can it help if we ignore it or brush its influence aside? Does it expire or wear off?Maybe we need to define grace (there is a thread running for that).
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The above assumes Mary was acting alone... Given the fact that man alone cannot understand things of the Spirit it's a given the Spirit was with her... Her mind alone would regard the whole things as foolishness... So - apparently we are in agreement here. Give me an example of someone alive today that I might have seen on TV who fits the category of "...the Spirit is with them...". Curious to whom you look to for an example, or if the answer is "no one".
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...who has no idea his or her own church referred to Muslisms as Moslems when he/she attempted to correct my supposed error. Yeah - apparently the mods did not find that very tasteful, either...
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You can do as you please... From past experience I know that dialog breaks down to a never ending game of regardless what the church says that's not what we are doing... I find it breaks down when no matter what I claim is being practiced, there is someone there to tell me what I am actually doing, in spite of me being the one who is doing it. We could be baking cookies every week during Mass - very few here would actually know that or not. But as long as it is in print somewhere on the internet (...the haven for conspiracy theorists and nit-nots...), then it must have authority and credibility.
The Order of Mass is widely published, as are Missals. Show me in the Order of Mass where we worship Mary, or any other Saint. I mean - this is the playbook for Catholic worship, and if we worship every week, and we worship Saints, then it must be in there somewhere.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/13/2008 9:18:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
They are one and the same. You apparently are satisfied to take what you wish, not what you are given...
Ok... Are you part of the special cult in the church that honors Mary? Do you REALLY believe that you worship the same god as those of the Islamic faith? You know, the god that has no son...
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In what way? If Mary wasn't human, then God did not put man on the critical path of his own salvation - and I know you are not suggesting that Mary was divine...
In the way that God doesn't have to open this, move that, or do whatever to get things done... As with the wine, He can do things and not follow the critical path.
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Jesus actually used "faith" to turn wine into water, did He not?
That's not how wine is made... Actually He performed a miracle, which is what I wanted to get across... He did things that circumvent the critical path.
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...and raise Him and protect Him and guard Him and keep Him warm...Did Mary possess grace to do this, or did she whip this up out of her own goodness? Was she cooperating with grace, aligning her will with that of God's for her, or was she being operated by God, with no freewill? Did she have freewill? Is it the same as the freewill everyone else possesses?
Free will doesn't grant one the means to understand things of the Spirit... Nor does it shield man from the will of God, ask Pharaoh... The bible says the kings heart is in the hand of God and He can move it as He so chooses...
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So...the Spirit makes man aware, but cooperation with this awareness is still required of man, and man may choose to ignore or override this grace, because it is resistible, and works as an influence (per the free will with which men and women are created), rather than a set of rails or a hard, conforming mold? Now you're beginning to sound like a Catholic...
The spirits does more than make aware... It prays for us, speaks for us, it's the new master that replaced the prior master of sin...
Note on free will: It cannot enable man to understand things of the Spirit... Only the Spirit can do that, and only man with the Spirit is able to...
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Mary was acting with grace - she was unaffected by the pressures and influences of earthly agendas, and she chose to cooperate with grace and bring Jesus to a flesh-and-blood presence in the world. So - where does grace come from? What does it do for us if we yield to it? How can it help if we ignore it or brush its influence aside? Does it expire or wear off?Maybe we need to define grace (there is a thread running for that).
We?
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So - apparently we are in agreement here.
How do we now agree? You leave it all at the feet of Mary and I leave it all at the feet of God...
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...who has no idea his or her own church referred to Muslisms as Moslems when he/she attempted to correct my supposed error. Yeah - apparently the mods did not find that very tasteful, either...
The truth does that at times... I like how you tossed your error aside on the backs of the mods... Nice touch... 
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The Order of Mass is widely published, as are Missals. Show me in the Order of Mass where we worship Mary, or any other Saint. I mean - this is the playbook for Catholic worship, and if we worship every week, and we worship Saints, then it must be in there somewhere.
Given your church claims to worship the same god as the Islamic faith you worship a god that is without a begotten son... Kinda ironic given all the honor shown Mary by the Roman Catholic Church.
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/14/2008 2:02:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The will to do what? Judas did what came natural to him... Could have Judas acted any different? He certaintly showed his true colors... Do you disagree?
John
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Since sin is always a choice, we always choose to sin, we are never forced to sin, then the answer is yes, Judas could have chosen differently.
Sure, Judas chose to sin; but, could he have chosen differently? Not if what God says about it is true, he couldn't.
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Acts 2:23
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/14/2008 5:50:15 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you REALLY believe that you worship the same god as those of the Islamic faith? You know, the god that has no son... Is there a need at this time to expand the scope of the discussion? Doubting a discussion of this can be done while remaining on topic. Perhaps you should start a thread...
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In the way that God doesn't have to open this, move that, or do whatever to get things done... God's work is accomplished by the cooperation of people, in some cases - apparently, that's the way He wants it. Charity and showing Christian love of neighbor comes to mind. God is not acting directly, but His work is being done through the actions of people, who are yielding to His grace, discerning His will, and aligning their actions and choices with that will.
Catholics are recognizing and honoring the people in whom grace was particularly effective in recognizing and honoring the Saints. God's grace. The only grace there is from the only place that it can come.
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He performed a miracle, which is what I wanted to get across... He did things that circumvent the critical path. We're not told how this happened or are given the detailed process description that occurred, we are only told that water was changed into wine. We can see why it happened - the first of seven signs that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't think necessarily that the point of miracles is that corners can be cut, but that the seemingly impossible is possible through faith.
If we claim that miracles represent circumvention of effort and action, we are cheapening the miracle, are we not?
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The spirits does more than make aware... It prays for us, speaks for us, it's the new master that replaced the prior master of sin... Spiritual interaction is influential, though. Feelings like remorse, guilt, regret, shame, and a sense of right and wrong - aren't these the influence of grace? Is it not true that if we are mastered by sin, we feel none of these things? Don't we observe that people will do things, in spite of regret that they may feel later on? If this is so, then the action of grace is an influence and not the cause of reflex or involuntary action. People may freely choose to ignore grace just as much as they may choose to cooperate with it. That is the nature of the rational soul with which we were created.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/14/2008 12:57:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2554
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Is there a need at this time to expand the scope of the discussion? Doubting a discussion of this can be done while remaining on topic. Perhaps you should start a thread...
I don't believe there is a need to even discuss that God has a Son and one cannot circumvent Christ and get to the Father. If that needs to be discussed than everything else is pointless. I believe I made my point.
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God's work is accomplished by the cooperation of people, in some cases - apparently, that's the way He wants it.Charity and showing Christian love of neighbor comes to mind. God is not acting directly, but His work is being done through the actions of people, who are yielding to His grace, discerning His will, and aligning their actions and choices with that will.
God is working through people... Those are works HE prepared... Their origin are in God, not the people.
Those who yield to His grace, discern His will and align their actions and choices with God's will are those who God has changed... Man cannot discern His will apart from the Holy Spirit. Apart from the Spirit man has no clue to God's grace... Understanding of all these things have their foundation in the Holy Spirit.
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Catholics are recognizing and honoring the people in whom grace was particularly effective in recognizing and honoring the Saints. God's grace. The only grace there is from the only place that it can come.
You speak far more of Mary's actions than God's grace... In fact your view has Mary's actions on par with God's...
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We're not told how this happened or are given the detailed process description that occurred, we are only told that water was changed into wine.
Given the known critical path in regards to wine making there wasn't enough time for starters, let alone the idea of starting with water...
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I don't think necessarily that the point of miracles is that corners can be cut, but that the seemingly impossible is possible through faith.
The point is that your use of critical paths doesn't jive with God's ways... You spoke of clear and known steps to get from point A to point B yet God isn't bound by those things and His miracle regarding the wine is fine example... It's very apparent that God doesn't have to follow critical steps of the pathto get things done. So it's not a given that there must be cooperation, and or that's is what is talking place... If you wish to simply look at things in the temporal sense I guess the idea of cooperation has merit, but that concept ignores the condition of man. Man is either at odds with God, or not... Those who are at odds cannot understand things of the Spirit which renders them unable to cooperate, regardless of free will, which doesn't able man to understand.
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If we claim that miracles represent circumvention of effort and action, we are cheapening the miracle, are we not?
Quite the opposite... Part of the miracles is the change God makes in a person’s life. The miracle that God could take an ordinary person and have her give birth to Christ... No need to make things up about the person to make her worthy of giving birth to Christ… She doesn’t have to be without sin, a virgin forever, and other church myths that have ZERO biblical foundation.
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Is it not true that if we are mastered by sin, we feel none of these things?
People who are not saved feel like they are doing good things, yet the bible says that the work and even the tender mercies of the wicked are evil... Oh, and that the sacrifices of the wicked are evil as well…
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People may freely choose to ignore grace just as much as they may choose to cooperate with it. That is the nature of the rational soul with which we were created.
The word of God doesn't speak of a rational soul it speaks of those who can understand and those who can't... Man is either alive in the Spirit, or dead in his or her sins... Man from the womb cannot discern things of the Spirit until he or she recieves a new heart and the Spirit of God.
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/16/2008 1:19:36 AM
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CalRed
Posts: 173
Joined: 12/20/2006
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With such clear instructions from Jesus on how to pray and who to pray to, I don't understand anyone wanting to pray to saints or Mary when they are all dead and in the grave.
I know Roman Catholics believe Mary is in heaven but there is no Scriptural support for that and no other historical support either. It's just a whim someone thought sounded good.
If God had wanted to take Mary to heaven, wouldn't He have taken such people as David, Abraham, etc.?
It would be a waste of time to pray to someone other than the Father. Christ has given us the instructions and He always said pray to the Father. To pray to anyone else seems blasphemous to me.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/16/2008 6:42:09 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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I know Roman Catholics believe Mary is in heaven but there is no Scriptural support for that I don't know...something about "...whosoever shall believeth in me shall have eternal life..." or something like that?
Mary was the first in NT Scriptures to "believeth" - by stating what you have, you are knocking the slats out from under all of Christianity.
Jesus didn't tell us to believe, and gain eternal death, did He?
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/16/2008 7:01:03 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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I don't believe there is a need to even discuss that God has a Son and one cannot circumvent Christ and get to the Father Then you are in 100% agreement with Roman Catholics everywhere...
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God is working through people... Those are works HE prepared... Their origin are in God, not the people. Again, every jot and tittle of this statement is in 100% agreement with the Catholic Church. What you didn't include is that people actually execute these tasks and actually do the work. They may be cooperating with grace and yielding ot it; a grace made available through faith, and grace that can only come form God. But people are the ones performing the charity.
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Those who yield to His grace, discern His will and align their actions and choices with God's will are those who God has changed... ... and continues to change. Aligning one's will with God is a process, not an instant. It's a choice and an effort that must be performed everyday - to abandon our fleshy pursuits and pick up God's causes for us.
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You speak far more of Mary's actions than God's grace... In fact your view has Mary's actions on par with God's... Mary's actions are a reflection and an example of God's grace being yielded to by a human being, a human being just like me. The second half of your statement is erroneous, my view certainly does not have Mary's actions on par with God's actions. My view has Mary's actions reflecting God's will for Mary, and how this came to be, as an example of how it can come to be for all of us.
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Given the known critical path in regards to wine making there wasn't enough time for starters, let alone the idea of starting with water... Exactly...but Jesus did it in the bat of an eye. So how did He do it? Did He cut corners, did He circumvent the critical path? Not according to the headwaiter. So maybe the miracle was just setting the usual process into fast motion, or something. My point being that if we claim that the effort of making wine was circumvented by the miracle, we are reducing the miracle or cheapening it to a mere magician's illusion or sleight of hand. I don't believe there was any bait-and-switch going on here - Jesus really made wine out of water. The point being that miracles are possible through faith, and that the miracle is not some trick or cheap stunt, but is harnessing the infinite power of God through faith in Him.
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The word of God doesn't speak of a rational soul I believe this what is meant by we humans being created in God's image - that we may analyze choices available to us, and over-ride our baser instincts and engage our will to enact the choice selected by our intellect - we possess a rational soul. Animals do not possess this trait; they seem to be driven largely by reflexes and instincts. At least to a much greater degree than humans.
If this were not the case, your pet could do your income taxes for you...
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"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/16/2008 2:02:28 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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Given your church claims to worship the same god as the Islamic faith you worship a god that is without a begotten son... Kinda ironic given all the honor shown Mary by the Roman Catholic Church. Ouch! That hoit! The pope did say that... Doesn't that mean the rest of the RCC has to agree? He IS the shepherd of it...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/16/2008 2:10:50 PM >
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/16/2008 2:18:34 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Doghouse
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The word of God doesn't speak of a rational soul I believe this what is meant by we humans being created in God's image - that we may analyze choices available to us, and over-ride our baser instincts and engage our will to enact the choice selected by our intellect - we possess a rational soul. Animals do not possess this trait; they seem to be driven largely by reflexes and instincts. At least to a much greater degree than humans.
If this were not the case, your pet could do your income taxes for you...
Actually DH, I understand where you are coming from here. That is to say I agree with your analysis of our being created in God's image. Can you believe it, I agree with you on this?
If all of humankind were acting according to their baser instincts at all times, what we would see all around us is anarchy. And I am able to relate to other human beings on a certain level. Most people would consider murder and theft things which should not be done in a reasonable society.
Perhaps I think this way partly because of my upbringing. I was raised in a very "moral" home environment. My parents who did not profess to believe in God, raised me to be a moral person. They taught me certain virtues in which to live by.
I guess you could say they were moral atheists/agnostics.  Funny huh? Quite contrary to the atheism which is increasingly becoming popular today.
Heavendweller
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/17/2008 4:25:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
Status: offline
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I know Roman Catholics believe Mary is in heaven but there is no Scriptural support for that
Mary was the first in NT Scriptures to "believeth" - by stating what you have, you are knocking the slats out from under all of Christianity. Huh? If anyone evidenced the first NT belief it was Elisabeth when she prophetically declared: "...mother of my Lord". And, Elisabeth declared Mary was blessed because of her faith and because what was promised would certainly be fulfilled.
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Mary's actions are a reflection and an example of God's grace being yielded to by a human being, a human being just like me.
This is true. All who believe are "blessed". Still, Mary's example is not sufficient reason to offer her worship through prayers and devotions since Scripture teaches only God is worthy of prayer.
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I believe this what is meant by we humans being created in God's image - that we may analyze choices available to us, and over-ride our baser instincts and engage our will to enact the choice selected by our intellect - we possess a rational soul. Animals do not possess this trait; they seem to be driven largely by reflexes and instincts. At least to a much greater degree than humans. This also is true. But, since all men are dead in their sins(Eph 2:5) without the ability to discern the spiritual things of God(1Cor 2:14) their "intellect" avails them little in the spiritual realm. Nor does their will or voluminous prayers to Mary and saints profit them before God(Rom 9:16).
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/17/2008 2:50:31 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3259
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Doghouse
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I'll take the words of the church over your explanation...
They are one and the same. You apparently are satisfied to take what you wish, not what you are given...
Actually, you’re saying they aren’t the same. I’ve known a lot of Catholics who didn’t fall in line with Catholic doctrine. Perhaps you are one of those? I’ve just never understood why they remained “Catholic.”
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ORIGINAL: Doghouse:
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I don't believe there is a need to even discuss that God has a Son and one cannot circumvent Christ and get to the Father
Then you are in 100% agreement with Roman Catholics everywhere...
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