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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/29/2008 5:49:57 AM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
If you give your all to God, there won't be any left for Mary. By committing ourselves to the example of compassion, mercy and charity of Mary, we ARE devoting ourselves to God - who gave her those qualities and made her what she is by His grace, and makes us what we are by the supply of His grace.
If we believed that Mary scraped up all this good behavior on her own, without God, then you would have a case to be made. We would be worshipping Mary for all the great things that Mary did. However, this is not the case. While Mary is venerated and honored, she is not worshipped.
However, Catholics are worshipping a God great enough and gracious enough to grant us His grace so that we may perform His will and do His work - the way Mary performed His will and did His work. We seek her example as a means to align ourselves to God's will for us and to discern the good works He has laid before us, in which we are to dwell.
Nobody on this forum, other than me, is in any position to judge whether I am worshipping something or not.
Deal with it.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/29/2008 8:48:42 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Nobody on this forum, other than me, is in any position to judge whether I am worshipping something or not.
Deal with it.
Well Said!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/30/2008 4:22:46 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Besides, we can never know if what is written concerning "saints" is actually true. Much is untrue, simply fantasy and hyperbole often with a hefty dash of superstition thrown in to make it exciting.
Some things about the saints may be empirically unverifiable, although the Catholic doesn't teach that everything written about the saints is on the same level as Scripture. That's the real problem. Scripture is so cheapened and demeaned when it is even mention by way of comparison with some biography.
It becomes more and more evident, almost with every post, that some people's regard for the Bible is slim to none. This is why it's so easy to formulate all sorts of doctrines which are either forbidden by or not taught in Scripture. It's really too bad because God says it is by His Word we are saved - not by some priest, pope, saint, church or tradition.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. -Romans 10:17
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, -Ephesians 5:26
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/30/2008 4:26:45 AM
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kelman
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We seek her example as a means to align ourselves to God's will for us and to discern the good works He has laid before us, in which we are to dwell. There's no "seeking her example" when she is worshipped by prayer which God clearly teaches is reserved for Him alone. In Scripture the ONLY other offering of prayer is to the pagan gods. What would make people want to be in that company even if only peripherally?
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Nobody on this forum, other than me, is in any position to judge whether I am worshipping something or not. Anyone with one of those rascally Bibles is able to judge....I should say anyone who actually believes the Bible. Why?....because we can clearly read what it is God teaches about prayer and to whom alone it must be addressed.
quote:
Deal with it. Rather, it is those who offer the worship of prayer to anyone other than God who will have to "deal with it".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/30/2008 8:15:51 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Nobody on this forum, other than me, is in any position to judge whether I am worshipping something or not.
Deal with it.
 Are you emulating Mary now ?...LOL...No one is judging, but several of us are ex-RC, and we recall worship of Mary. Our RC families and friends tell us they worship Mary. Titles of greatness, and works done specifically for Mary, hymns of praise sung to the queen of heaven...need I go on ? Perhaps you are one of the few folk that don't WORSHIP Mary. I believe you. Unfortunately, you are in the minority, as a billion others don't adhere to your brand of Catholicism.
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Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/30/2008 9:00:34 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anyone with one of those rascally Bibles is able to judge....I should say anyone who actually believes the Bible. Why?....because we can clearly read what it is God teaches about prayer and to whom alone it must be addressed.
Kelman Kelman Kelman
Well I have one of those *rascally* Bibles and I have read it and I have found what I believe to be clearly laid out in its pages. Just as you do. Would it then be fair for me to say you were in error and didn't fully understand your worship practices, should I judge you as quickly as you judge Catholics. Nah I'll leave it for God, I think He can see the truth of your soul better then me, however what a burden it must be for you to know the true state of every ones soul.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/31/2008 3:51:18 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anyone with one of those rascally Bibles is able to judge....I should say anyone who actually believes the Bible. Why?....because we can clearly read what it is God teaches about prayer and to whom alone it must be addressed.
Kelman Kelman Kelman
Well I have one of those *rascally* Bibles and I have read it and I have found what I believe to be clearly laid out in its pages. Just as you do. Would it then be fair for me to say you were in error and didn't fully understand your worship practices, should I judge you as quickly as you judge Catholics. Nah I'll leave it for God, I think He can see the truth of your soul better then me, however what a burden it must be for you to know the true state of every ones soul.
Mary
Mary, you have not found in the pages of the Bible that it is permissible to pray to anyone but God.
And where precisely have I indicated the state of anyone's soul?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/31/2008 3:18:08 PM
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Asotos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anyone with one of those rascally Bibles is able to judge....I should say anyone who actually believes the Bible. Why?....because we can clearly read what it is God teaches about prayer and to whom alone it must be addressed.
Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't believe only in the Bible but also in the Holy Tradition (the Creed of Faith + The Writ tings of the Fathers + Synods of the Church) and of course the Pope (for the catholics only) has the first place for interpretation at any of the dogmas of the church, their view is very different from the Sola Scripture of the reformation.
quote:
Rather, it is those who offer the worship of prayer to anyone other than God who will have to "deal with it".
Theological speaking their will answer to you that they don't offer any worship to saints but only to God, however since saints are alive and not dead and close to God they ask for their prayers as well, however the hole practice is very different.
For example those "holy" relics of bones of saints what have to do with Christianity none knows...
< Message edited by Asotos -- 5/31/2008 3:24:55 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/31/2008 3:45:06 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
If you give your all to God, there won't be any left for Mary. By committing ourselves to the example of compassion, mercy and charity of Mary, we ARE devoting ourselves to God - who gave her those qualities and made her what she is by His grace, and makes us what we are by the supply of His grace.
If we believed that Mary scraped up all this good behavior on her own, without God, then you would have a case to be made. We would be worshipping Mary for all the great things that Mary did. However, this is not the case. While Mary is venerated and honored, she is not worshipped.
However, Catholics are worshipping a God great enough and gracious enough to grant us His grace so that we may perform His will and do His work - the way Mary performed His will and did His work. We seek her example as a means to align ourselves to God's will for us and to discern the good works He has laid before us, in which we are to dwell.
Nobody on this forum, other than me, is in any position to judge whether I am worshipping something or not.
Deal with it.
Hello Doghouse!
Doghouse, I will agree with you here. Mary's example was a great example of faith. And her example of faith in God is something we should all look to, but we should still not idolize her. And, maybe Mannamuncher is right, maybe you are one of the few who may not worship her, but I have seen people who have. Once a week, for a year at 2:00pm on Fridays, the Church gave me the job to take care of the Chapel for one hour. I was praying in the Chapel (Eucharistic Adoration). And after I was done praying, I would read my Eucharistic Adoration prayer book. And this is when I would notice many elderly ladies going up to the feet of Mary in there. And they genuinely kiss her feet. In the room, there was an altar with the Eucharistic Adoration monstrance on it, and on the right side there was a painting of Jesus, and on the left, directly beside the altar, was a life size statue of Mary. And the Elderly ladies went to the Statue of Mary all the time, never went to the really nice painting of Jesus, in my one year of taking care of this.
It is examples like that, that us Protestants are against. I have also seen people kiss the Mary icon part of their rosary among other things. And this is worship of Mary, because these women didn't go to the feet of Jesus, where true worship is. I can recall other examples. And my parish was great in the diocese. It was honored, even by Pope John Paul II.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/31/2008 5:46:24 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 2:43:57 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Asotos
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anyone with one of those rascally Bibles is able to judge....I should say anyone who actually believes the Bible. Why?....because we can clearly read what it is God teaches about prayer and to whom alone it must be addressed.
Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't believe only in the Bible but also in the Holy Tradition (the Creed of Faith + The Writ tings of the Fathers + Synods of the Church) and of course the Pope (for the catholics only) has the first place for interpretation at any of the dogmas of the church, their view is very different from the Sola Scripture of the reformation.
It becomes a problem when tradition trumps Scripture which is often the case as seen with the practice of praying to saints and Mary. Other than to pagan gods, the only example of prayer in the Bible is to God.
Hundreds of prayers from Genesis to Revelation are to God alone. Man has not been given the privilege of changing God's Word - to introduce doctrines in direct opposition to what is revealed in Scripture.
quote:
Theological speaking their will answer to you that they don't offer any worship to saints but only to God, however since saints are alive and not dead and close to God they ask for their prayers as well, however the hole practice is very different.
I'm aware of all the vacuous excuses given to justify that which cannot be scripturally justified. Prayer is worship - no matter the "degree" a church contrives to ease the conscience of being in direct opposition to Scripture.
quote:
For example those "holy" relics of bones of saints what have to do with Christianity none knows... The idea of relics is frankly silly; and, of course, dubious. There's no authentication possible so basically we're just looking at a superstitious practice.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:51:30 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
their view is very different from the Sola Scripture of the reformation. Actually, Sola Scriptura is a very different view from the orthodox practice of Christianity of the ancient communions. It is a 16th century man-made invention, not part of the deposit of faith given the Apostles by Jesus, and retained by the Church through the magisterium.
So, I'm thinking your sentence is kind of backwards. You have the chicken before the egg.
Welcome to the forums. I look forward to your inputs here and I encourage you to participate. I am always glad to see and welcome another perspective on these topics.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 7:58:08 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 1:40:57 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
Other than to pagan gods, the only example of prayer in the Bible is to God.
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Priase His angels!!! Paganism in the bible!
quote:
There's no authentication possible so basically we're just looking at a superstitious practice.
So Kelman you don't believe in miracles as well?
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 5:58:09 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3542
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Other than to pagan gods, the only example of prayer in the Bible is to God.
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Priase His angels!!! Paganism in the bible!
You aren't interpreting that to say praise angels, are you? Because that isn't what it says at all.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 6:43:28 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
You aren't interpreting that to say praise angels, are you? Because that isn't what it says at all.
Oops your right...it was a fast post. This is a better one:
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).
Here we are told to ask the angels to pray with us. The big family can all participate in praising the Lord and like Paul ask them to help us. Pray means simply to ask, btw.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:15:51 PM
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Asotos
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quote:
Actually, Sola Scriptura is a very different view from the orthodox practice of Christianity of the ancient communions. It is a 16th century man-made invention, not part of the deposit of faith given the Apostles by Jesus, and retained by the Church through the magisterium.
So, I'm thinking your sentence is kind of backwards. You have the chicken before the egg.
Welcome to the forums. I look forward to your inputs here and I encourage you to participate. I am always glad to see and welcome another perspective on these topics.
Thanks for the welcoming.
Your statement hits directly in the heart of the problem. My personal view is that the sola scriptura is more close to the ancient communion than the today organized religion presented by the Roman Catholic or the Easter Orthodox. And I will explain.
According to the Roman Catholics and Easter Orthodox we have the written tradition (Bible) and the tradition after (the Creed the Fathers the Synods pls various other wittings which is like a labyrinth). I wont disagree that there is other christian tradition than the written one, however the Bible since is what is left directly from the Apostoles should and must be the gnomon to judge any other human tradition that have been added after.
For example, both Catholics and Orthodox don't allow their clergy to get married (orthodox allow only their priest) that is in violation with what Paul says on timothy and Titus and is added on the church by a Justinian Edict. In the Ancient Church they where ordaining women deacons, that is a No today by both Churches
Another example is that the Fathers don't agree always with themselves.
Also the Fathers and the early Synods never but never used any other tradition than the Bible ( the writing of the Apostles and their disciples).
For example all the writings of the fathers of the first 4 centuries are full of quotes from the bible, they never spoke out of the bible but always from the bible about the bible explaining the bible.
The amount of traditions that have been accumulated through the centuries and especially after the Christianity have been an acknowledged religion from the roman empire is enormous.Most of this tradition I personally see as a compromise between what was the Judaistic Christianity given by the Apostoles with the Pagan religion which its followers had the church to adapt, Icons, sculptures, Idols, special religious celebrations, priests ,high Priest, Sacrifices (even if they are not real one),organized monastic life, saints, relics etc etc There is no reference of such things from the first centuries on the Christianity.. absolutely nothing at all.
As about the Magisterium for the Catholics which is similar for the Orthodox as well , what can I say when they did so many mistakes in the past and where always behind their times, we can keep bringing examples of their wrong doings. Lets not forget that both Churches where against the translation of the bible for centuries. They didn't want common people to be able to understand what it says.
Finally both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox have change the Christianity to such a degree that will have been unrecognizable to a believer of the 2nd century. So I prefer to Read and Accept what I believe is the only thing is unquestionable left directly from the Apostles who have seen, touch and heard Jesus when he was present.
That is my personal view to the matter and no offense intended.
< Message edited by Asotos -- 6/1/2008 7:23:44 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:19:59 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3542
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
You aren't interpreting that to say praise angels, are you? Because that isn't what it says at all.
Oops your right...it was a fast post. This is a better one:
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).
Here we are told to ask the angels to pray with us. The big family can all participate in praising the Lord and like Paul ask them to help us. Pray means simply to ask, btw.
Otis
Still not seeing it. That has nothing to do with anyone on earth asking anyone in heaven to do anything.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:24:32 PM
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Asotos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Still not seeing it. That has nothing to do with anyone on earth asking anyone in heaven to do anything.
No only that, but ask any Jewish Rabi if they pray to Angles or to their Prophets or offer any praise to them. The Answer will be simple no and I believe they know better what they where doing for centuries.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:35:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2004
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
You aren't interpreting that to say praise angels, are you? Because that isn't what it says at all.
Oops your right...it was a fast post. This is a better one:
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).
Here we are told to ask the angels to pray with us. The big family can all participate in praising the Lord and like Paul ask them to help us. Pray means simply to ask, btw.
Otis
You still missed it. It is saying that the angels bless the Lord.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 7:46:59 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
My personal view is that the sola scriptura is more close to the ancient communion than the today organized religion presented by the Roman Catholic or the Easter Orthodox. And I will explain. The evidence of the vast body of work by the early Church fathers does not support your hypothesis here.
quote:
however the Bible since is what is left directly from the Apostles should and must be the gnomon to judge any other human tradition that have been added after. What remains of the deposit of faith is the magisterium, guarded, defended and passed on by the Church. The Church is what judged and authorized Scripture to be included or not in the New Testament, thereby authorizing it (in fact - canonizing it).
quote:
For example, both Catholics and Orthodox don't allow their clergy to get married (orthodox allow only their priest) This is a discipline within the clergy, and is not a dogma practiced by the Church. There are, in fact. married Roman Catholic Priests who are both husbands and father, in addition to providing pastoral leadership to Parishes within the Church.
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The amount of traditions that have been accumulated through the centuries and especially after the Christianity have been an acknowledged religion from the roman empire is enormous. This is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact. If you were to investigate these "traditions", you would find Scriptural support for all of them, in addition to finding that they were practiced within the early Church, and were discussed at length by the Church fathers and other historical people within the Church.
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we can keep bringing examples of their wrong doings The imperfections and flawed behaviors of pastoral leaders in no way negates or corrupts Biblical truths taught by them.
quote:
Finally both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox have change the Christianity to such a degree that will have been unrecognizable to a believer of the 2nd century. They would be infinitely more recognizable than the 30,000 variations of worship and instruction that are around today in the non-ancient communions of faith.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 7:54:28 PM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 8:43:30 PM
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Asotos
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I was expecting those answers, there are the same arguments I am getting from my Orthodox friends in Greece where I come from.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
The evidence of the vast body of work by the early Church fathers does not support your hypothesis here.
Looks we going to have an argument and I will do my best here since I don't have my notes, been in another country for studies. My believe is that the Writings of the Early fathers support my argument 100%.
quote:
What remains of the deposit of faith is the magisterium, guarded, defended and passed on by the Church. The Church is what judged and authorized Scripture to be included or not in the New Testament, thereby authorizing it (in fact - canonizing it). I do not disagree with you at all there , indeed early church did canonize the new and the old testament.
Can you explain me then why the later church uses the Apocryphal gospel of James that was not canonized and never accepted, as "tradition" about the family of Mary and how she was conceived entered the temple etc, and sets also religious celebrations taken from the story of an apocryphal gospel ? Or the apocryphal text De Obitu S. Dominae about her Dormition. All those traditions are taken from apocryphal gospels.
The early church and its practices have vast difference with what we have today and that is obvious to whoever looks on the ancient texts and reads early church history.
quote:
This is a discipline within the clergy, and is not a dogma practiced by the Church. There are, in fact. married Roman Catholic Priests who are both husbands and father, in addition to providing pastoral leadership to Parishes within the Church.
I don't understand when you say this is a discipline. There are Canons of Synods that specifically say that Clergy should not be married. Yes there are few exemptions in the rule as you have stated but the rule is that all Clergy should be celibate. There are no married bishops or archbishops neither the Pope is married. Well in the Ancient church they where married. A lot of the Fathers who where bishops where married man. As far about that the women ordained deacons was something that practiced especially in the eastern church for long time , till 1000 AC. For the West I am not sure. Are those synods above Paul who spoke through the Holy spirit and wrote those things down for the churches of his time.
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This is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact. If you were to investigate these "traditions", you would find Scriptural support for all of them, in addition to finding that they were practiced within the early Church, and were discussed at length by the Church fathers and other historical people within the Church. I have investigated these traditions and is as I said personal opinion but it came out of studying the church history and the writings of the fathers, so for me is a fact.
quote:
The imperfections and flawed behaviors of pastoral leaders in no way negates or corrupts Biblical truths taught by them.
Those biblical truths changed and developed so many times. As I said we can speak for months about those things and since I respect both Roman Catholics and Orthodox I really don't want to get into that. But the reformation didn't come for no reason.
quote:
They would be infinitely more recognizable than the 30,000 variations of worship and instruction that are around today in the non-ancient communions of faith.
As far I see we agree to disagree so far
< Message edited by Asotos -- 6/1/2008 9:00:46 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 9:45:19 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 428
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quote:
Still not seeing it. That has nothing to do with anyone on earth asking anyone in heaven to do anything.
Well just look a little harder and just check a few commentaries...
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Bless the LORD, ye m his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
(m) In that we, who naturally are slow to praise God, exhort the angels, who willingly do it, we stir up ourselves to consider our duty and wake from our sluggishness. Geneva Study Bible
We "exhort" the angels...we ask them to do something.
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Bless the Lord, you his angels; and again, Bless the Lord, all you his hosts, you ministers of his. David had been stirring up himself and others to praise God, and here, in the close, he calls upon the angels to do it; Matthew Henry Complete
Pretty straight forward there. David is asking the angels to praise God.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 11:02:48 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3542
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I guess that's one way of looking at it, but you cannot equate angels with dead humans. Sorry.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/1/2008 11:10:13 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1182
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Meh.
David is being poetic here (what with this being the book of Psalms, and all). His "exhortations" to the angels are not assumed to be heard by the angels, nor to affect their actions one way or another (as the entire purpose for being of entire classes of angels is to spend time nonstop praising God. They didn't start because they heard David telling them to.) To take this language in the manner you are suggesting is akin to you going down to the park and trying to get the squirrels to sing hymns in an attempt to fulfill "let everything that has breath praise the Lord" as in Psalms 150:6.
In fact, if you read further in Psalms 148, you will find David exhorting the sun, moon, stars, water, dragons, fire, hail, snow, clouds, wind, mountains, hills, trees, cows, animals in general, birds, and then, finally, people.
Though oddly enough, given | | | |
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