RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary?

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Carico -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/10/2008 5:10:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Hello Kelman, Do you now acknowledge that God sanctions or allows the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to serve and worship Him? Are we allowed to look at His creation (the heavens, the moon, the stars, man, the beasts of the fields, the birds of the air, the works of His hands, His migthy acts, His great deeds, etc..) and be reminded and convicted that God deserves the glory and honor and worship as God alone deserves? Are we allowed to look at the Saints or any object (relic) and be reminded of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His people? Are Christians not allowed to look at a cross symbol and be reminded of the wonderful work of redemption that Christ has acquired for us? (Keep in mind, the cross symbol does not need to be made from a piece of the original cross that Christ carried. It can be made of any material. It does not have to be associated with any known "saint" whatsoever.) Are Christians not allowed to look at the printed word "cross" and be reminded of the gift of salvation that Christ has acquired for us? Are Christians not allowed to look at an object or artifact that is associated with a known saint and be reminded of the Words of God that was lived out in the life of that Saint? Are Christians not allowed to look at the Bible and be reminded of the apostles, saints, the prophets, etc and the mighty works of God for the salvation of all? (Hey remember, the Bible is an artifact or relic of those saints who wrote those books in the Bible). Kelman, keep in mind all these questions when you object to the use relics in the life of any Christian. Thanks and God Bless! onerock Actually Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 4:13 are quite simple to understand. Neither verse says anything about the printed word in the bible. What God is telling is is that no object created by man should be worshiped because they come from the hands of men and are tangible items that are not alive. Only the living God is eternal.

Catholicandloveit -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/10/2008 6:26:01 PM)
Good thing the only thing being worshiped is God! Pax,

onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/11/2008 12:22:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman ... ... ... ... quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Can you explain this description of the Church by Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians? 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Is there an expiry date to this description of the church by Paul after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing? Can you share to us from the Word of God where this expiry date is mentioned? Yes, as a matter of fact there is and I would be delighted to share it with you. It is called Revelation 22:18. God is indicating here that there will be no more revelation from Him, no more visions, no more angel visitations, no more dreams, no more voices and no more messages in tongues from God. That has all come to an end. So, if we want to know God's will, we read the Bible - we now have the whole Bible - all 66 books of it. Hello Kelman, You claim that Revelation 22:18 tells us about the expiry date to the description of the church by Paul (1 Corinthians 12:27-28) after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing. Lets look at Rev. 22:18 to see what it says: quote: Rev 22:18 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. Question: When John wrote "I warn everyone who hears the prophecy of this book" in Rev 22:18, what book was he referring to? (Keep in mind Kelman, the Bible is not just one book. You yourself said there are 66 books in the Bible. Besides Revelation itself is classified as a book in the Bible. Isn't it known as the "Book of Revelation"?) Question: When John wrote Rev 22:18, was he referring to the Bible? (Remember, when John wrote that statement, the Bible was not compiled yet.) Again, what book was John referring to in that statement? Where in that statement of John in the Book of Revelation does it say that from this day onward there will be no more "workers of miracles, those having gifts of healing" in the Church? Will Christians be adding to the "words of the prophecy of this book" if they believe that God still provides healing in the church? Thanks and God Bless! onerock

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/12/2008 3:41:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Do you now acknowledge that God sanctions or allows the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to serve and worship Him? Are we allowed to look at His creation (the heavens, the moon, the stars, man, the beasts of the fields, the birds of the air, the works of His hands, His migthy acts, His great deeds, etc..) and be reminded and convicted that God deserves the glory and honor and worship as God alone deserves? Are we allowed to look at the Saints or any object (relic) and be reminded of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His people? You've asked these same questions before; and I answered them. God does not make any provision for the use of relics in Scripture and this would certainly not be worshipping God "in spirit and in truth". quote: Are Christians not allowed to look at the Bible and be reminded of the apostles, saints, the prophets, etc and the mighty works of God for the salvation of all? (Hey remember, the Bible is an artifact or relic of those saints who wrote those books in the Bible). The Bible is not an artifact...look up the word in a dictionary. The worth is not in the physical book, the black print on white paper. Its worth is in the fact that it is the expression of the very thoughts of God Himself. It is an unfortunate comparison being made - that of the inspired Word of God to a body part! Paul, Peter, etc. penned the Bible but God is the Author of it - it is HIS Book - breathed out by Him. So, please, while I understand your attempt to compare the Holy Word of God to a mere relic, it is most inappropriate. quote: Kelman, keep in mind all these questions when you object to the use relics in the life of any Christian. Onerock, keep in mind the worship of God He demands in Scripture and keep in mind it has nothing to do with relics.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/12/2008 3:53:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onerock You claim that Revelation 22:18 tells us about the expiry date to the description of the church by Paul (1 Corinthians 12:27-28) after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing. Yes, that is correct, God has completed His revelation to man in Scripture. He does not speak outside of it. We see already in Scripture that miracle healings tapered off quite dramatically to the point these healing were not being done past the latter part of Acts. quote: Lets look at Rev. 22:18 to see what it says Rev 22:18 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. Okay. quote: Question: When John wrote "I warn everyone who hears the prophecy of this book" in Rev 22:18, what book was he referring to? (Keep in mind Kelman, the Bible is not just one book. You yourself said there are 66 books in the Bible. Besides Revelation itself is classified as a book in the Bible. Isn't it known as the "Book of Revelation"?) No, the Bible is one Book comprised of 66 individual books. We read that certain prophets such as Moses and Jeremiah were told to "write this in a book" just as John was. In Rev 22:7 we read “Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” What book is “this book”? It is the book God had been preparing for 1500 years prior to that statement. Then, in Rev 22:18-19 God continues to talk about “this book”. By the statements in those verses, God indicates that the book He had been preparing for the last 15oo years is complete. There will be no further revelation from God. The Word of God has been given. We have the whole Word, and we are not to look for anything else. This is a tremendous blessing from God because we need never be enticed by those who say they have “more” from God – whether Roman Catholic or Protestant. We can know for a surety that it is not from God. quote: Question: When John wrote Rev 22:18, was he referring to the Bible? (Remember, when John wrote that statement, the Bible was not compiled yet.) Yes, as I've just explained above. (Remember, it is sincerely unlikely God was unaware when He finished His Book.) quote: Again, what book was John referring to in that statement? see above quote: Where in that statement of John in the Book of Revelation does it say that from this day onward there will be no more "workers of miracles, those having gifts of healing" in the Church? Vision, dreams, miracles which set aside the natural law are an additional word/revelation from God which He definitively says He will not do. His Book, His revelation to us is complete.

onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/13/2008 7:50:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zhi Mm, but isn't there a difference regarding whether or not those objects are expected to have any innate "power"? My Bible is a reminder, but I don't enshrine it, don't kneel before it, don't have parades in the street for it, don't expect to be able to cure my hubby's headache by smacking him across the head with it. Same with my cross necklace. Zhi, Are you not in effect parading that cross symbol around when you wear it around your neck? God Bless! onerock

Zhi -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/13/2008 7:35:46 PM)
quote: Are you not in effect parading that cross symbol around when you wear it around your neck? I wear it under my shirt most of the time, and it's small and modest. It's for me, not public consumption. Also, with a 17 month old, anything dangling is subject to grabbage. I don't wear it often anymore because the clasp is getting worn out and I'm afraid I might lose it, which would be awful since my husband made it for me back when we were dating.

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/17/2008 9:06:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic. Do Catholics pray to the saints or Mary? Discuss the differences in this doctrine and come to a better understanding of those who believe differently. That word, "pray" is the focal point of our misunderstandings. To most of you, prayer probably equals worship, and I can see how you would therefore think it is wrong to "pray" to the saints. But the word also means "a request". In THAT sense, "praying" to our brothers and sisters in heaven is only making a "request" of them, which is that they pray for us. In fact, in the Old English that the KJV is written in, the word "prithee" was a common contraction, meaning "pray thee". People would say "Prithee come hither" for example, which would mean "will you please come here". Again, "pray" here being used in the sense of a request. That is the sense it is used in regarding prayer to the saints. When I "pray" to Mary I am saying "will you please pray for me". So, lets go with the undestanding that, in this context, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow (no disrespect intended). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST. Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God" Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). For more Biblical references, go to: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/19/2008 5:29:30 AM)
quote: Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for *each other. Also in the very same passage of James 5:16 we are told to confess our sins to each other. Are the saints in heaven in the habit of confessing their sins to you and you to them? There is nothing in this passage, or in any other passage of the Bible, which would even remotely legitimize the praying to Mary or to saints - nothing. In all of God's Word, in all of His instructions to us, we find the only one EVER* prayed to is God.

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/20/2008 9:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for *each other*...... Thats great. Because people in heaven are not dead, they are ALIVE, and since death does not seperate us from each other, we are capable of praying for each other. Thanks for proving my point.

hellochurch -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/20/2008 3:09:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onerock quote: ORIGINAL: kelman ... ... ... ... quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Can you explain this description of the Church by Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians? 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Is there an expiry date to this description of the church by Paul after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing? Can you share to us from the Word of God where this expiry date is mentioned? Yes, as a matter of fact there is and I would be delighted to share it with you. It is called Revelation 22:18. God is indicating here that there will be no more revelation from Him, no more visions, no more angel visitations, no more dreams, no more voices and no more messages in tongues from God. That has all come to an end. So, if we want to know God's will, we read the Bible - we now have the whole Bible - all 66 books of it. Hello Kelman, You claim that Revelation 22:18 tells us about the expiry date to the description of the church by Paul (1 Corinthians 12:27-28) after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing. Lets look at Rev. 22:18 to see what it says: quote: Rev 22:18 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. Question: When John wrote "I warn everyone who hears the prophecy of this book" in Rev 22:18, what book was he referring to? (Keep in mind Kelman, the Bible is not just one book. You yourself said there are 66 books in the Bible. Besides Revelation itself is classified as a book in the Bible. Isn't it known as the "Book of Revelation"?) Question: When John wrote Rev 22:18, was he referring to the Bible? (Remember, when John wrote that statement, the Bible was not compiled yet.) Again, what book was John referring to in that statement? Where in that statement of John in the Book of Revelation does it say that from this day onward there will be no more "workers of miracles, those having gifts of healing" in the Church? Will Christians be adding to the "words of the prophecy of this book" if they believe that God still provides healing in the church? Thanks and God Bless! onerock quote: THANKYOU so much onerock for your insights, I ate them right up, Thank you kelman for what you had to say, It is sooooooo interesting to read and compare texts and understandings, the Word of God is so rich and delicious.! I agreed with onerock, that rev. 22:18 does not mean the corinth. gifts and callings were ended, I had a diff. understanding come to me as to the "adding to the prophecy of this book" I believe John was giving God's instructions as to no one should tamper with what he wrote down in that revelation from God, dont add or take away from it, with dire results. I also think that the canon is closed as to written down accepted as HOLY Bible Word of God - however for the HOly SPirit to speak to us today, by speaking to people and for these people to speak out what was told them, while this is not to be added to our 'canon' it does not mean the Holy Spirit cannot talk to us in this way. No it does not become our Holy Scripture, that category closed, (although i dont think rev. 22:18 means this) but it must be written somewhere else that canon is closed, or maybe i am wrong maybe it isnt closed at all maybe canon isnt closed, i just presumed it was, - you are really making me think, here, .... what rev. 22:18 says is John was warning dont add or take away from what is written down by me here, dont tamper with what i have written in this revelation, or take the heavy duty consequences. .... When they passed manuscripts around, the jews were accustomed to handling God breathed writings in a meticulous way, the trained scribes etc. maybe the gentiles in church were terrible in handling similar and John needed to tell them Keep Off God's Words. with a warning. ---Or perhaps, because there is "hidden manna" in the revelations, which I believe it is in revelations that it says that about itself, it is vitally important that not one "jot or tittle" be altered. ie. did you know that there are numeric patterns for the word ordering of the original text that can be checked to discover whether someone has altered a word or idea, apparently, ie Ivan Panin's numeric findings and the numeric English translation of the bible. (This I have only come across and not studied yet, so cannot vouch for fully) I believe John's statement in rev.22:18 "don't alter a thing written here," may have been a way of The LORD saying, "I have decided that this will be included in my canon," so this cannot be tampered with in any way, and maybe God included hidden things in there so if it was altered, we would not get the hidden information. ie by hidden, i am addressing the whole issure of why Father and Jesus agreed in secret and hid the mystery of the cross from the princes of this world because the bible says, "if the princes of this world had known what the Fathers plan was, they would never have crucified Jesus" ----Father and Jesus pulled a move on them and beat them! (in secret) I JUST LOVE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KABOOM! CANON STOKED, LOADED AND FIRED!

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 4:52:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for *each other*...... Thats great. Because people in heaven are not dead, they are ALIVE, and since death does not seperate us from each other, we are capable of praying for each other. Thanks for proving my point. Neither I or Scripture prove your points. The fact remains James was speaking to those who had not yet physically died. This dead/alive argument is one of the silliest RC makes. Please answer the question posed to you concerning the passage which you think supports your position of praying to other than God Himself. Do the saints in heaven confess their sins to you as James says the "one another" are to do? If not, these passages are not applicable to praying to saints.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 4:56:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellochurch I also think that the canon is closed as to written down accepted as HOLY Bible Word of God - however for the HOly SPirit to speak to us today, by speaking to people and for these people to speak out what was told them, while this is not to be added to our 'canon' it does not mean the Holy Spirit cannot talk to us in this way. If the Holy Spirit was actually to "speak" today, aside from the written Word of God, it would be precisely that - the Word of God. But, of course, that cannot happen since God does not violate His own Word. quote: No it does not become our Holy Scripture, that category closed,... Of course it does. All the socalled "infallible" dogmas/traditions are on the same level as the written Word of God....according to RC. But, in actuality it supercedes the written Word of God. This is the same for any religion which has added to the Word of God - its new revelations always supercede. It is precisely for this reason that none of RC's new dogmas/traditions can be proven from the written Word of God. No, when any church or individual, for that matter, believes He has some additional "word" from God, we can rest assured it is *not* from God. He will never violate His own written Holy Scripture - the only thing which God speaks of as being inspired.

Ps103 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 11:20:36 AM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE Please start a new thread to discuss whether or not the Holy Spirit speaks to people today. Thanks. Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 12:28:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Do you now acknowledge that God sanctions or allows the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to serve and worship Him? Are we allowed to look at His creation (the heavens, the moon, the stars, man, the beasts of the fields, the birds of the air, the works of His hands, His migthy acts, His great deeds, etc..) and be reminded and convicted that God deserves the glory and honor and worship as God alone deserves? Are we allowed to look at the Saints or any object (relic) and be reminded of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His people? You've asked these same questions before; and I answered them. God does not make any provision for the use of relics in Scripture and this would certainly not be worshipping God "in spirit and in truth". ... Kelman, You claim that you have answered the questions that I have asked you in my previous post and yet you still object to the use of objects that can serve as reminders for us of the wonderful works of God in the lives of his people. Allow me to share this quote again: quote: Psalms 145:1-6 1 I will exalt you, my God the King; I will praise your name for ever and ever. 2 Every day I will praise you and extol your name for ever and ever. 3 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. 4 One generation will commend your works to another; they will tell of your mighty acts. 5 They will speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty, and I will meditate on your wonderful works. 6 They will tell of the power of your awesome works, and I will proclaim your great deeds. Kelman, you are claiming and insisting that when christians bring objects or relics when they go to worship God, these christians are using these objects to gain access to God. You are making these accusations to the extent that you are even disregarding the purposes of these objects or relics to serve as reminders of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His followers. Question: Can you explain to us why you are equating the action of bringing objects/relics equals using these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship? Is the very act of carrying objects/relics (when christians live out their faith life) equals to trying to use these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship? Can you explain that to us since you do not acknowledge the purposes of these objects/relics to serve as reminders of the awesome works of God in the lives of of His people? Kelman, let us consider for a moment that you are correct in your assertion that when Christians bring objects/relics when they go to worship God these christians are actually using these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship: Questions: When christians bring a leather bound bible to church when they go there for their worship service, are they using that leather to gain access to God in their worship of Him? (kelman, leather is made from a body part of an animal. Hey, how about the paper in that bible? Paper is made from material taken from the trunks of trees. [;)]) Will these christians be guilty of using these animal and plant body parts to try to gain access to God in worship? Can you also explain to us why you are implying that christians are not allowed to use their bodies when they go to honor and worship God? Thanks and God Bless! onerock

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 1:47:57 PM)
I am going to speak personally, and share a bit of my personal prayer with everyone. Often, I will talk to God. I praise Him, and thank Him for all He has done for me. I will talk to Him about my troubles, then pray for all those who are in need. When I am done, I will then say something like this: "Father, please bless me as I turn to my brothers and sisters in heaven and ask them for their prayers." I will then go on to ask those is heaven to pray for me, just as I would ask any memner of my local parish to pray for me. To me, it seems so natural and simple. I never could understand the rejection (sometimes vehement rejection) of this simple truth, that we are all one Body in Christ, on earthh, or in heaven.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 6:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onerock Kelman, you are claiming and insisting that when christians bring objects or relics when they go to worship God, these christians are using these objects to gain access to God. Actually, I said that relics are not to be used to gain access to God and neither is praying to saints and Mary to be used. That hardly qualifies as "claiming and insisting". Therefore, it makes the rest of your post moot. Nonetheless, I will answer your questions though they are misdirected. Please remember, God does not present the use of "relics" as a method for worshipping Him "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." God is worshipped in the hearts of His people NOT in idols, images, icons or relics "Neither is worshiped with men's hands" quote: You are making these accusations to the extent that you are even disregarding the purposes of these objects or relics to serve as reminders of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His followers. I'm not disregarding anything. No where are we told to use dead body parts to serve as "reminders of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His followers." We are told, though, in Psalm 144:1-6 to declare the "mighty works of God" as we are similarly told in Psalm 22:30,31 and 102:12,18. Compare those verses and you will see exactly *who* is to be remembered and *why. quote:* Can you explain to us why you are equating the action of bringing objects/relics equals using these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship? Since you've admitted to needing and/or using these objects to remind you of God, this appears to be your method of gaining access. BTW, precisely where and to whom are you "bringing objects/relics? quote: Is the very act of carrying objects/relics (when christians live out their faith life) equals to trying to use these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship? Do you actually carry dead body parts around on your person? quote: Can you explain that to us since you do not acknowledge the purposes of these objects/relics to serve as reminders of the awesome works of God in the lives of of His people? Perhaps you can explain to us why you misuse Scripture in an attempt to have it bow to your tradition? God is clear what the "mighty works" are - and they are not dead body parts. quote: Kelman, let us consider for a moment that you are correct in your assertion that when Christians bring objects/relics when they go to worship God these christians are actually using these objects/relics to gain access to God in worship: Questions: When christians bring a leather bound bible to church when they go there for their worship service, are they using that leather to gain access to God in their worship of Him? I do not accept your premise since it is not relevant to the subject at hand, not to mention it is quite silly. The Bible is not a dead body part. quote: Can you also explain to us why you are implying that christians are not allowed to use their bodies when they go to honor and worship God? Actually, God tells true believers they are to present *their* bodies a living sacrifice(Rom 12:1). But, no where does God tell us to present other people's bodies.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 6:30:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader I am going to speak personally, and share a bit of my personal prayer with everyone. Often, I will talk to God. I praise Him, and thank Him for all He has done for me. I will talk to Him about my troubles, then pray for all those who are in need. When I am done, I will then say something like this: "Father, please bless me as I turn to my brothers and sisters in heaven and ask them for their prayers." I will then go on to ask those is heaven to pray for me, just as I would ask any memner of my local parish to pray for me. To me, it seems so natural and simple. I never could understand the rejection (sometimes vehement rejection) of this simple truth, that we are all one Body in Christ, on earthh, or in heaven. Then why not actually deal with the verse you claim offers this "simple truth"? Are your "brothers and sisters" in heaven confessing their sins to you and you to them? I ask because that is precisely what James is saying "confess your sins one to another". If, in fact, James 5 is not saying those in heaven will confess to you and you to them; then, you must in all honesty not claim that James is saying those in heaven are to be prayed to.

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 7:45:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader I am going to speak personally, and share a bit of my personal prayer with everyone. Often, I will talk to God. I praise Him, and thank Him for all He has done for me. I will talk to Him about my troubles, then pray for all those who are in need. When I am done, I will then say something like this: "Father, please bless me as I turn to my brothers and sisters in heaven and ask them for their prayers." I will then go on to ask those is heaven to pray for me, just as I would ask any memner of my local parish to pray for me. To me, it seems so natural and simple. I never could understand the rejection (sometimes vehement rejection) of this simple truth, that we are all one Body in Christ, on earthh, or in heaven. Then why not actually deal with the verse you claim offers this "simple truth"? Are your "brothers and sisters" in heaven confessing their sins to you and you to them? I ask because that is precisely what James is saying "confess your sins one to another". If, in fact, James 5 is not saying those in heaven will confess to you and you to them; then, you must in all honesty not claim that James is saying those in heaven are to be prayed to. Who said anything about confessing? This is about "intercessory" prayer, not confessing sins. God is pleased by our intercessions for each other according to 1 Timothy 2:1-4. Why would God prevent Christians in heaven from doing what is pleasing to Him? .

Zhi -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 9:31:05 PM)
quote: Actually, God tells true believers they are to present their bodies a living sacrifice(Rom 12:1). But, no where does God tell us to present other people's bodies. This made me giggle. I mentioned it to my husband. His comment was "Since when are dead bodies not unclean?" I think that's a good point. A Jewish person, especially a Jewish priest, would never touch a dead body or part of a dead body, because it would make them unclean. They would certainly not parade one around or keep pieces of one in their places of worship where someone might accidentally touch it. So why on earth is it appropriate in Catholicism?

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 9:53:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zhi quote: Actually, God tells true believers they are to present their bodies a living sacrifice(Rom 12:1). But, no where does God tell us to present other people's bodies. This made me giggle. I mentioned it to my husband. His comment was "Since when are dead bodies not unclean?" I think that's a good point. A Jewish person, especially a Jewish priest, would never touch a dead body or part of a dead body, because it would make them unclean. They would certainly not parade one around or keep pieces of one in their places of worship where someone might accidentally touch it. So why on earth is it appropriate in Catholicism? Well, I'm not Jewish. That whole "unclean" shtick is OT stuff. Why would you pull that canard out of the hat? I have not been in this forum long, but I have noticed that there are a few people here who seem to revel in belittling other people's beliefs. Tell me, why on earth is THAT appropriate? If anyone ELSE would like to know why we believe what we do about relics - even though it is off topic - please read this brief explanation: http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp And, if anyone else would like to know why we believe what we do about asking our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us, please read this brief explanation: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Zhi -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/21/2008 10:16:30 PM)
It just seemed odd to me that there would be a complete reversal in what God thinks about carrying around bits of dead people. I find it far more likely that God didn't change his mind on that (especially as there was no revelation as there was in the case of the unclean animals) and it's still not something God wants us doing. Just as I find it unlikely that God would change his mind about having people pray to the dead.

onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/22/2008 12:07:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for *each other. Also in the very same passage of James 5:16 we are told to confess our sins to each other. Are the saints in heaven in the habit of confessing their sins to you and you to them? There is nothing in this passage, or in any other passage of the Bible, which would even remotely legitimize the praying to Mary or to saints - nothing. In all of God's Word, in all of His instructions to us, we find the only one EVER prayed to is God.* Hello Kelman, Can you explain these passages in Scripture and maintain your assertion that God is the only one ever prayed to in Scripture? quote: Acts 8:34 (KJV) And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (The eunuch prayed to Philip) Acts 24:1-6 (KJV) 1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence, 3 We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness. 4 Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. 5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. Acts 27:33-34 (KJV) 33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you. 2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV) 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (Paul is praying to the corinthians to be reconciled to God.) Genesis 12:13 (KJV) Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee. Genesis 13:8-9 (Douay-Rheims) 8 Abram therefore said to Lot: Let there be no quarrel, I beseech thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen: for we are brethren. 9 Behold the whole land is before thee: depart from me, I pray thee: if thou wilt go to the left hand, I will take the right: if thou choose the right hand, I will pass to the left. Genesis 16:2 (KJV) And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. Genesis 24:2 (KJV) And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: Genesis 24:12 (KJV) And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham. (God is being prayed to here.) Genesis 25:30 (KJV) And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. Genesis 32:29 (KJV) 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Jacob prayed to the angel who wrestled with him.) Judges 13:15 (KJV) 15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. (Manoah prayed to the angel of the Lord.) 1 Samuel 9:18 (Douay-Rheims) And Saul came to Samuel in the midst of the gate, and said: Tell me, I pray thee, where is the house of the seer? 1 Samuel 15:24-25 (KJV) 24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. (Saul prayed to Samuel.) 1 Samuel 30:7 (KJV) And David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech's son, I pray thee, bring me hither the ephod. And Abiathar brought thither the ephod to David. (David prayed to Abiathar the priest.) 2 Samuel 24:10 (Douay-Rheims) But David’s heart struck him, after the people were numbered: and David said to the Lord: I have sinned very much in what I have done: but I pray thee, O Lord, to take away the iniquity of thy servant, because I have done exceeding foolishly. (The Lord is being prayed to here.) 1 Thessalonians 4:1 (Douay-Rheims) 1 For the rest therefore, brethren, pray and beseech you in the Lord Jesus that, as you have received from us, how you ought to walk and to please God, so also you would walk, that you may abound the more. (Paul is praying to and beseeching the brethren to walk and please God.) Do you now understand what "pray" means kelman? Thanks and God Bless! onerock

Zhi -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/22/2008 1:46:46 PM)
Wow. Did you really just invoke Shakespearean English colloquialisms to obfuscate the definition of "pray"? Regardless, every single verse you gave either talks about praying to God or to someone currently living on this planet. In the context of our fellow people, it means (contextually) "ask" or "beseech".

TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/22/2008 4:54:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zhi ....In the context of our fellow people, it means (contextually) "ask" or "beseech". Yup. And when we "pray" to the saints we "ask" them to pray for us. I could have sworn I made that point already. Oh yes, I did, right here: http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=3624812 ...right on this very page, which shows that people aren't even reading the answers to the questions they are asking.

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