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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 5:00:44 PM
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Zhi
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Mmm, frankly I don't have much of an issue with ya'll asking dead and occassionally mythological people to pray for you if you don't worship them while doing so, I just think it's rather a waste of time, as there's no indicator that the dead can hear you, and the mythological really can't.
But, most of the prayers I've read that are suggested for the saints tend to be pretty worshipful toward the saint. Especially the prayers to Mary. I would say that's a problem. Most of them also appear to be asking the saint for help, and not God, which is also a problem.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 5:33:53 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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This is as easy as it gets:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Mmm, frankly I don't have much of an issue with ya'll asking dead and occassionally mythological people to pray for you......
Is being snotty just normal for you? "Mythological people"? Was that really neccessary? Peter, Paul, Mary, and all who have gone to heaven are not "mythological people." They are real people. And they are not dead, they are alive, just as my grandma and my brother are alive in heaven. Those snotty snied insults are really starting to torque me off..
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< Message edited by TheCatholicCrusader -- 7/22/2008 5:40:42 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 5:47:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5245
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
.
This is as easy as it gets:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Mmm, frankly I don't have much of an issue with ya'll asking dead and occassionally mythological people to pray for you......
Is being snotty just normal for you? "Mythological people"? Was that really neccessary? Peter, Paul, Mary, and all who have gone to heaven are not "mythological people." They are real people. And they are not dead, they are alive, just as my grandma and my brother are alive in heaven. Those snotty snied insults are really starting to torque me off..
Where does the Bible tell us to pray to departed dead folks?
Jesus said we are to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
And what makes you think that the Saints you pray are in Heaven and not somewhere else?
They might not have made it to Heaven.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:01:18 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Where does the Bible tell us to pray to departed dead folks?......
Where does the Bible say that everything must be in the Bible? It doesn't.
Where does the Bible say the word "Trinity"? Well when you take certain passages that say the Holy Spirit is God, and others where Jesus claims to be God, you put them all together and you get the Trinity, right? Well, when you take passages that say God is pleased when we pray for each other (2 Tim 1-4) and you take other passages where it says that death does not seperate us, you put them all together and you get that it is okay to ask brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for you.
It ain't Necromancy, which is two-way communication: It is simply sending your prayers up knowing that God will let them hear them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Jesus said we are to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.......
So what? That has nothing to do with asking a brother to pray for you. And, I'm quite sure that people in heaven know the proper way to pray.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And what makes you think that the Saints you pray are in Heaven and not somewhere else? They might not have made it to Heaven......
I'm pretty sure that Mary is in heaven. If SHE didn't make it, the rest of us are screwed.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:05:28 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And what makes you think that the Saints you pray are in Heaven and not somewhere else? They might not have made it to Heaven......
I'm pretty sure that Mary is in heaven. If SHE didn't make it, the rest of us are screwed.
How do you know (not assume, but know) that the Saints you are praying to are in Heaven?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:10:54 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And what makes you think that the Saints you pray are in Heaven and not somewhere else? They might not have made it to Heaven......
I'm pretty sure that Mary is in heaven. If SHE didn't make it, the rest of us are screwed.
How do you know (not assume, but know) that the Saints you are praying to are in Heaven?
Thanks RC
To answer that question, one must first grapple with the question of an "infallible" teaching office of the Church (Magisterium). Since I believe in the infallibility of the Pope, I believe that when saints are canonized (declared to be in heaven) the pronouncement is true. Thats what the canonization process is all about.
Lets not derail into Papal Infallibility though. Here's a link if you wish to see our point of view on that hairy subject: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:33:03 PM
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Zhi
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Not being snarky, just referring to the fact that several feast days were recently removed from the official calendar due to the fact that the patron saints in question were likely mythological, or at least mostly mythological.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:40:53 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
....several feast days were recently removed from the official calendar due to the fact that the patron saints in question were likely mythological, or at least mostly mythological.
Name one of them please.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 6:54:21 PM
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Zhi
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Mmm, we discussed this a ways back in the thread. Saint Christopher was the most famous, but he just lost his feast day due to the fact that his story is most likely fiction. Saint Barbara and Saint Philomena also got removed from the calendar. Saint Simon of Trent got completely ousted and his veneration was forbidden...
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 7:10:53 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
To answer that question, one must first grapple with the question of an "infallible" teaching office of the Church (Magisterium). Since I believe in the infallibility of the Pope, I believe that when saints are canonized (declared to be in heaven) the pronouncement is true. Thats what the canonization process is all about.
Lets not derail into Papal Infallibility though. Here's a link if you wish to see our point of view on that hairy subject: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
Oh so you think the Magisterium determines who goes to Heaven.
Well Silly me, I thought that God would make that decision.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 7:16:10 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
To answer that question, one must first grapple with the question of an "infallible" teaching office of the Church (Magisterium). Since I believe in the infallibility of the Pope, I believe that when saints are canonized (declared to be in heaven) the pronouncement is true. Thats what the canonization process is all about.
Lets not derail into Papal Infallibility though. Here's a link if you wish to see our point of view on that hairy subject: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
Oh so you think the Magisterium determines who goes to Heaven.
Well Silly me, I thought that God would make that decision.
Thanks
RC
No RC you have it backwards. A saint does not go to heaven because they are canonized. They are canonized because they are already in heaven, which is something that God decided.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 7:56:14 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
To answer that question, one must first grapple with the question of an "infallible" teaching office of the Church (Magisterium). Since I believe in the infallibility of the Pope, I believe that when saints are canonized (declared to be in heaven) the pronouncement is true. Thats what the canonization process is all about.
Lets not derail into Papal Infallibility though. Here's a link if you wish to see our point of view on that hairy subject: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
Oh so you think the Magisterium determines who goes to Heaven.
Well Silly me, I thought that God would make that decision.
Thanks RC
Thats not fair. You put words in my mouth. I never said that. Of COURSE God decides who goes to heaven. The canonization process is a means by which we determine who went to heaven, not actually deciding who goes to heaven.
Why do people in protestant forums always feel the need to misrepresent what Cathnolics say and believe?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 8:38:04 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Mmm, we discussed this a ways back in the thread. Saint Christopher was the most famous, but he just lost his feast day due to the fact that his story is most likely fiction......
Here is what I learned regarding St Christopher.
First, this is important:
quote:
.....Before the formal canonization process began in the fifteenth century, many saints were proclaimed by popular approval. This was a much faster process but unfortunately many of the saints so named were based on legends, pagan mythology, or even other religions.....
source: http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36
So, since he was "popularly" proclaimed a saint rather than "infallibly" proclaimed one, there is no argument here against Papal Infallibility. Of course, I knew there would not be, because the Holy Spirit would not allow that.
Next, while some of his legend may be in question, his existance is not:
quote:
....The existence of a martyr St. Christopher cannot be denied, as was sufficiently shown by the Jesuit Nicholas Serarius, in his treatise on litanies, "Litaneutici" (Cologne, 1609), and by Molanus in his history of sacred pictures, "De picturis et imaginibus sacris" (Louvain, 1570). In a small church dedicated to the martyr St. Christopher, the body of St. Remigius of Reims was buried, 532 (Acta SS., October 1, 161). St. Gregory the Great (d. 604), speaks of a monastery of St. Christopher (Epp., x, 33). The Mozarabic Breviary and Missal, ascribed to St. Isidore of Seville (d. 636), contains a special office in his honor. In 1386 a brotherhood was founded under the patronage of St. Christopher in Tyrol and Vorarlberg, to guide travellers over the Arlberg. In 1517, a St. Christopher temperance society was established in Krain; a similar society existed in Carinthia, Styria, in Saxony, and at Munich. Great veneration was shown to the saint in Venice, along the shores of the Danube, the Rhine, and other rivers where floods or ice-jams caused frequent damage. The oldest picture of the saint, in the monastery on Mount Sinai dates from the time of Justinian (527-65). Coins with his image were cast at Wurzburg, in Wurtemberg, and in Bohemia. His statues were placed at the entrances of churches and dwellings, and frequently at bridges; these statues and his pictures often bore the inscription: "Whoever shall behold the image of St. Christopher shall not faint or fall on that day." The saint, who is one of the fourteen Holy Helpers, has been chosen as patron by Baden, by Brunswick, and by Mecklenburg, and several other cities, as well as by bookbinders, gardeners, mariners, etc. He is invoked against lightning, storms, epilepsy, pestilence, etc. His feast is kept on July 25; among the Greeks, on March 9; and his emblems are the tree, the Christ-child, and a staff. St. Christopher's Island (commonly called St. Kitts), lies 46 miles west of Antigua in the Lesser Antilles.
source: http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Christopher%2C_Saint
So, the Church did the right thing. I am comfortable with that.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 9:55:44 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
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Which part? The part where they gave him a day and wild popularity, or the part where they took away his day despite wild popularity? The intervening popularity is somewhat moot.
There were lots and lots of martyrs. I guess only the ones who had a good story get recognized. Regardless of whether the story is true.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2008 10:05:45 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:23:52 AM
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ChristianRink
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an anti-Christ is a person (spirit within that person) or a man made system or belief system that denies Jesus Christ as the Only way to Salvation....
So when you pray to mary or to any of us saints then the person or thing telling you to do this.....is a 'what'?
Salvation is right now, Ephesians 2
Jesus IS Lord!!!!
Hallelujah :)
_____________________________
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 8:04:20 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
an anti-Christ is a person (spirit within that person) or a man made system or belief system that denies Jesus Christ as the Only way to Salvation....
Well that leaves out the Catholic Church, because we teach that it is only by the blood of Christ that one is saved. Perhaps you should send this message to a Muslim, because Islam is a "man made system or belief system that denies Jesus Christ as the Only way to Salvation". As for us Catholics, Christ is King, thank you very much
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
So when you pray to mary or to any of us saints then the person or thing telling you to do this.....is a 'what'?
It is asking them to pray for you, thats what it is. Haven't you ever asked a brother or sister to pray for you? The point being made here is that, you can ask your brother or sister in heaven to pray for you the same way you can ask a brother or sister on earth to pray for you. As Zhi said earlier, prayer means "asking". Praying to the saints means "asking" them... ....to pray for you. Get it? It aint rocket science man. There's no need to mudsling with all that antichrist gobbldeygook.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
Salvation is right now, Ephesians 2
Jesus IS Lord!!!! Hallelujah :)
Yes He is.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 8:12:52 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Which part? The part where they gave him a day and wild popularity, or the part where they took away his day despite wild popularity? The intervening popularity is somewhat moot.
Are you trying to get me to say the Church makes mistakes? Of course it does!! We are sinners, you know. But whenb a pope speaks Ex Cathedra, he does not err. But that is rare, and many popes have been rotten. There is no contradiction there.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
There were lots and lots of martyrs. I guess only the ones who had a good story get recognized. Regardless of whether the story is true.
Wrong. But there are only so many days in the year to hand out.
And, it is impossible for us to know every Christian that died and went to heaven. That is why we celebarate "All Saints Day", to commemorate ALL the Trillions who have gone to heaven. But, some folks do stand out as people of virtue and heroes of the faith, and the Church holds them up as examples and says, "See? A person from your background can lead a holy life, and you can too!" They are examples for us to follow, and wonderful life stories to read about.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:14:18 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And what makes you think that the Saints you pray are in Heaven and not somewhere else? They might not have made it to Heaven......
I'm pretty sure that Mary is in heaven. If SHE didn't make it, the rest of us are screwed.
 AMEN!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 10:13:15 AM
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Zhi
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Mmm, Protestants would say that Mary is in heaven due to her faith in her Son, Christ Jesus. Which is an option we all have.
I'm not sure whether Catholics would expect her to be in heaven because of her faith in Jesus (which shares in the hope we all have), or if they would expect it due to their belief that she was sinless (which means we're in trouble).
Either way, there's no indication that she can hear us.
Frankly I'm glad if the saints in heaven can't hear us. They deserve eternal bliss after their trials, not constant concern and woe over the whiners here on earth. ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 10:17:21 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Thats not fair. You put words in my mouth. I never said that. Of COURSE God decides who goes to heaven. The canonization process is a means by which we determine who went to heaven, not actually deciding who goes to heaven.
Well now just how does that happen (the determining process), I mean do the Bishops get a Golden Scroll with the names of those in Heaven listed or what?
How ever one wishes to spin it; the Bishops are determining who is in Heaven and thereby who is not there, and I just cannot find that job description in Scripture.
Please explain.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 10:21:16 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
So, the Church did the right thing. I am comfortable with that.
But that does mean that the Magistrum that set those folks up (whether due to popular request or whatever) made a mistake, and would that not indicate that Popes are not infallible.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 11:45:55 AM
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texastweet
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quote:
Either way, there's no indication that she can hear us.
Frankly I'm glad if the saints in heaven can't hear us. They deserve eternal bliss after their trials, not constant concern and woe over the whiners here on earth. ;)
So Zhi, you don't believe in miracles or give any creadence to the thousands upon thousands of alleged visitations, etc? It's ok for tent preachers to call down a healing or say that "God put this on my heart" or expel satan, but there is no way heavenly beings can appear on earth or actually visit someone. Why don't you go rent "The Song of Bernadette".
I know, all Catholic alleged miracles must be promptly ignored and dismissed....
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 11:51:25 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Thats not fair. You put words in my mouth. I never said that. Of COURSE God decides who goes to heaven. The canonization process is a means by which we determine who went to heaven, not actually deciding who goes to heaven.
Well now just how does that happen (the determining process), I mean do the Bishops get a Golden Scroll with the names of those in Heaven listed or what?.....
I don't respond to sarcastic remarks.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 11:53:53 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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A repeat of a simple truth I posted earlier:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
This is as easy as it gets:
1. Chrsitia | | | |
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