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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 11:56:19 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
.....I know, all Catholic alleged miracles must be promptly ignored and dismissed....
...but, many protestants are happy to believe that Todd Bentley raises people from the dead, without a shred of scientific documentation to prove it. So there you go.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 12:05:28 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
How ever one wishes to spin it; the Bishops are determining who is in Heaven and thereby who is not there, and I just cannot find that job description in Scripture.
Please explain.
Thanks
RC
Please provide the list of people that the Bishops have decided are not in heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 12:21:05 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
How ever one wishes to spin it; the Bishops are determining who is in Heaven and thereby who is not there, and I just cannot find that job description in Scripture.
Please explain.
Thanks
RC
Please provide the list of people that the Bishops have decided are not in heaven.
Well said. Just because we know that certain people are in heaven does not mean that we know EVERYONE who has gone to heaven, nor does it mean that everyone ELSE is in hell. That would be like me saying that I know 5 guys in the Marines, and since those are the only ones I know they are therefore the only 5 people in the Marines. LOL.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 12:28:48 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
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quote:
So Zhi, you don't believe in miracles or give any creadence to the thousands upon thousands of alleged visitations, etc? It's ok for tent preachers to call down a healing or say that "God put this on my heart" or expel satan, but there is no way heavenly beings can appear on earth or actually visit someone. Why don't you go rent "The Song of Bernadette".
I know, all Catholic alleged miracles must be promptly ignored and dismissed....
Well, obviously heavenly beings can appear on earth and visit people, angels have demonstrably done it many times in the Scripture. That doesn't mean that dead people visit people. The only time that's documented as happening in the Bible involves the witch of Endor and Saul got in huge trouble for that. So, while I guess it's possible, it requires God consenting to send them and is not portrayed as "a good idea".
There are thousands upon thousands of alleged visitations from aliens too. Does that mean you believe that aliens exist? And specifically aliens that spend vast amounts of time and expense travelling the many light years to our planet just to rough up a few cows and hillbillies?
God can do miracles if He wants to. I wouldn't count putting an image of Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich one of them, though.
Really, the question is whether or not the visitations teach something that is consistent with the God-inspired Scripture. If they don't, then I would be suspicious, because as Scripture says, Satan can appear as an angel of light. Or a dead saint, I suppose, if he wanted.
I *have* always kind of wondered, though... Mary was a real human, obviously. Which means that she had a specific appearance. It makes one wonder, then, why a specific person with a specific appearance would have rather different facial features from what one would expect of a Jewish girl, much less different facial features every time she appeared, according to iconography related to "visitations". Apparently the way you tell whether it's Mary visiting you is whether or not she's wearing the cowl thingy. Not what she actually looks like.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:02:23 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
....I *have* always kind of wondered, though... Mary was a real human, obviously. Which means that she had a specific appearance. It makes one wonder, then, why a specific person with a specific appearance would have rather different facial features from what one would expect of a Jewish girl.....
It is up for debate how Jesus, angels, saints, or whatever, actually "appear" to people. Do they actually appear in person? Or do they appear in the mind of the person as to seem that they are actually there? If its the latter, then it would make sense that we would perceive them in a manner that would be normal for us: A black person my envision a black Mary; A Chinese person my envision a Chinese Mary.. ..I see no problem there.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:20:37 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
So Zhi, you don't believe in miracles or give any creadence to the thousands upon thousands of alleged visitations, etc? It's ok for tent preachers to call down a healing or say that "God put this on my heart" or expel satan, but there is no way heavenly beings can appear on earth or actually visit someone. Why don't you go rent "The Song of Bernadette".
I actually don't.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:23:40 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3539
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
.....I know, all Catholic alleged miracles must be promptly ignored and dismissed....
...but, many protestants are happy to believe that Todd Bentley raises people from the dead, without a shred of scientific documentation to prove it. So there you go.
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Not many, a deceived few.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:27:29 PM
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ChristianRink
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We, as Christians, are to test every Spirit...
If it is not the Holy Spirit, then it is a Demonic Spirit..
Read John 4, and hear Jesus words about worshiping God!
If you are not worshiping in that way, then obviously a demonic spirit can easily deceive you...especially when you are not testing it and just accepting it...
Awake you Christians! Put on Strength...CHRIST WILL GIVE YOU LIFE!!!!!!!
now I'm goin to be :) haha
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:36:57 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 2:52:51 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
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quote:
It is up for debate how Jesus, angels, saints, or whatever, actually "appear" to people. Do they actually appear in person? Or do they appear in the mind of the person as to seem that they are actually there? If its the latter, then it would make sense that we would perceive them in a manner that would be normal for us: A black person my envision a black Mary; A Chinese person my envision a Chinese Mary.. ..I see no problem there.
Then how can you tell it's Mary, and not, say, a deceiver? Whether that deceiver be a demon or someone playing a prank, whether the person actually saw the vision or was hallucinating, dreaming, or lying for personal reasons, etc...
Instead, it seems that your church is far more likely to just take the vision at its word, regardless of whether what they're saying is scriptural, build a shrine on that spot, and do what they say.
Take for instance the vision of Simon Stock. Mary appears to him, hands him a piece of clothing, and tells him that anyone who dies wearing that kind of piece of clothing is safe from Hell. That's terribly unscriptural, yet Catholics consider the person who had the vision a saint, and take the vision seriously. The Bible tells us that the only way to be safe from Hell is faith on Jesus Christ, not what we're wearing or what someone tied to us while we were on our deathbeds.
Again, there needs to be discernment. The Bible tells us that there are both good and bad spiritual forces, and we need to be careful to make sure that what anyone, be it a person or a vision, tells us is in line with Scripture... because if it's not, it's not from God.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:09:28 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
The point is that you don't know who is in heaven....
We know people who have gone to heaven. THAT is the point. Whether you choose to recognize that or not is your own affair.
Here is a Q & A excerpt from the Q & A section of the April 1994 issue of "This Rock" magazine:
quote:
Q: When did the custom of canonizing saints start, and is it true that canonizations are infallible?
A: Here are excerpts from two articles on the canonization of saints; they are taken from The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967):
"The solemn act by which the pope, with definitive sentence, inscribes in the catalogue of saints a person who has previously been beatified. By this act he declares that the person placed on the altar now reigns in eternal glory and decrees that the universal Church show him the honor due to a saint. The formulas indicate that the pope imposes a precept on the faithful, e.g. 'We decide and define that they are saints and inscribe them in the catalogue of saints, stating that their memory should be kept with pious devotion by the universal Church.'
"The faithful of the primitive Church believed that martyrs were perfect Christians and saints since they had shown the supreme proof of love by giving their lives for Christ; by their sufferings, they had attained eternal life and were indefectibly united to Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body. These reasons induced the Christians, still oppressed by persecution, to invoke the intercession of the martyrs. They begged them to intercede before God to obtain for the faithful on earth the grace to imitate the martyrs in the unquestioning and complete profession of faith [1 Tim. 2:1-5, Phil. 3:17]. .
"Toward the end of the great Roman persecutions, this phenomenon of veneration, which had been reserved to martyrs, was extended to those who, even without dying for the faith, had nonetheless defended it and suffered for it, confessors of the faith (confessores fidei). Within a short time, this same veneration was extended to those who had been outstanding for their exemplary Christian life, especially in austerity and penitence, as well as to those who excelled in Catholic doctrine (doctors), in apostolic zeal (bishops and missionaries), or in charity and the evangelical spirit. . . .
"In the first centuries the popular fame or the vox populi represented in practice the only criterion by which a person's holiness was ascertained. A new element was gradually introduced, namely, the intervention of the ecclesiastical authority, i.e., of the competent bishop. However, the fame of sanctity, as a result of which the faithful piously visited the person's tomb, invoked his intercession, and proclaimed the thaumaturgic [miraculous] effects of it, remained the starting point of those inquiries that culminated with a definite pronouncement on the part of the bishop. A biography of the deceased person and a history of his alleged miracles were presented to the bishop. Following a judgment of approval, the body was exhumed and transferred to an altar. Finally, a day was assigned for the celebration of the liturgical feast within the diocese or province.
"The transition from episcopal to papal canonization came about somewhat casually. The custom was gradually introduced of having recourse to the pope in order to receive a formal approval of canonization. This practice was prompted obviously because a canonization decreed by the pope would necessarily have greater prestige, owing to his supreme authority. The first papal canonization of which there are positive documents was that of St. Udalricus in 973. . . . Through the gradual multiplications of the Roman pontiffs, papal canonization received a more definite structure and juridical value. Procedural norms were formulated, and such canonical processes became the main source of investigation into the saint's life and miracles. Under Gregory IX, this practice became the only legitimate form of inquiry (1234). . . .
"The dogma that saints are to be venerated and invoked as set forth in the profession of faith of Trent (cf. Denz. 1867) has as its correlative the power to canonize. . . . St. Thomas Aquinas says, 'Honor we show the saints is a certain profession of faith by which we believe in their glory, and it is to be piously believed that even in this the judgment of the Church is not able to err' (Quodl. 9:8:16).
"The pope cannot by solemn definition induce errors concerning faith and morals into the teaching of the universal Church. Should the Church hold up for universal veneration a man's life and habits that in reality led to [his] damnation, it would lead the faithful into error. It is now theologically certain that the solemn canonization of a saint is an infallible and irrevocable decision of the supreme pontiff. God speaks infallibly through his Church as it demonstrates and exemplifies its universal teaching in a particular person or judges that person's acts to be in accord with its teaching.
"May the Church ever 'uncanonize' a saint? Once completed, the act of canonization is irrevocable. In some cases a person has been popularly 'canonized' without official solemnization by the Church . . . yet any act short of solemn canonization by the Roman pontiff is not an infallible declaration of sanctity. Should circumstances demand, the Church may limit the public cult of such a person popularly 'canonized'" (vol. 3, 55-56, 59, 61).
source: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9404qq.asp
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:14:36 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Then how can you tell it's Mary, and not, say, a deceiver?...
Well, unlike the Bentley nonsense, the Church performs a battery of scientific and medical tests, which is why 99% of reported miracles are rejected. And the 1% that are not? The Church teaches that private revelations are not binding on the faithful. I can actually be a Catholic in good standing and reject Fatima, Lourdes, and the rest if I wanted to. I'll bet you didn't know that. For the particulars, read the related Catechism section here (especially paragraph # 67):
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm#III
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:19:51 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
Really, the question is whether or not the visitations teach something that is
No Zhi, the real question is that have you really examined these appearances and not not the swiss cheese kind. I find that they have to be dismissed much like the secular sceptics do because if true, then the lack there of in protestant circles kind of put a pretty big supernatural hole in protestantism in general and the specific prot belief that there isn't really any cloud of witnesses that know and hear what is going on down here.
Actually I think the dpeictions of Jesus and Mary have been fairly consistant--if you don't apply stereotypic Jewish biases.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:24:48 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3539
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Actually I think the dpeictions of Jesus and Mary have been fairly consistant--if you don't apply stereotypic Jewish biases.
Otis
What does that mean?
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"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 3:32:53 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
Well, unlike the Bentley nonsense, the Church performs a battery of scientific and medical tests, which is why 99% of reported miracles are rejected. And the 1% that are not? The Church teaches that private revelations are not binding on the faithful. I can actually be a Catholic in good standing and reject Fatima, Lourdes, and the rest if I wanted to. I'll bet you didn't know that. For the particulars, read the related Catechism section here (especially paragraph # 67):
I'm sure they do now, but the scientific testing thing is a pretty recent development.
It's good that they're not binding, but when there's a "get out of hell free" card/shirt, that your church apparently considers valid, isn't that something you should probably pay attention to? I find it odd that they would accept that as Truth, and not subsequently require all their followers to put one on since it's the easiest way to save them all from hell. So, either the church isn't terribly concerned with the thought that some of their parishioners might go to hell, or they're not terribly serious about accepting the vision as truth, and really they should pick one and stick to it.
quote:
No Zhi, the real question is that have you really examined these appearances and not not the swiss cheese kind. I find that they have to be dismissed much like the secular sceptics do because if true, then the lack there of in protestant circles kind of put a pretty big supernatural hole in protestantism in general and the specific prot belief that there isn't really any cloud of witnesses that know and hear what is going on down here.
There's plenty of witnesses on this planet, and I'm sure God knows what's going on.
I'm sure there are plenty of fervent people who saw something. Whether it's a saint rather than a hallucination, dream, trick, demon, etc, is another question. So, again, you have to judge by what it is, specifically, they're saying, versus what scripture says.
quote:
Actually I think the dpeictions of Jesus and Mary have been fairly consistant--if you don't apply stereotypic Jewish biases.
I'm with Stella on this one. Huh?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 5:02:33 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
We know people who have gone to heaven. THAT is the point. Whether you choose to recognize that or not is your own affair.
How do you know that?......
Because the canonization of a saint involves the charism of infallibility: Canonizations include an infalliblr pronouncement. Thats how I know that. But let's respect the rules and not derail this thread into Papal Infallibility. If yhou want to know the teaching about that, I'l; direct you to this tract: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
....The bible says otherwise.......
Correction: You're interpretation of the Bible says otherwise. I say your interpretation is wrong.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 5:05:43 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
......but when there's a "get out of hell free" card/shirt, that your church apparently considers valid, isn't that something you should probably pay attention to?....
What on earth are you talking about, dare I ask? And whatever it is, what does it have to do with whether or not we can ask our Christian brethren in heaven to pray for us? That is the topic of this thread, isn't it? If we can get back to the topic, I'll repeat of a simple truth I posted earlier:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
This is as easy as it gets:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 6:20:16 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
What on earth are you talking about, dare I ask? And whatever it is, what does it have to do with whether or not we can ask our Christian brethren in heaven to pray for us? That is the topic of this thread, isn't it? If we can get back to the topic, I'll repeat of a simple truth I posted earlier:
I'm talking about the brown scapular.
I thought our discussion on prayer, and whether or not saints can hear us, was currently going over whether or not the visions were in fact valid manifestations of actual dead people.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 7:24:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5025
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
It is up for debate how Jesus, angels, saints, or whatever, actually "appear" to people. Do they actually appear in person? Or do they appear in the mind of the person as to seem that they are actually there? If its the latter, then it would make sense that we would perceive them in a manner that would be normal for us: A black person my envision a black Mary; A Chinese person my envision a Chinese Mary.. ..I see no problem there.
Please don't forget the distinct possibility that the folks | | | |
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