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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 7:39:27 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
What on earth are you talking about, dare I ask? And whatever it is, what does it have to do with whether or not we can ask our Christian brethren in heaven to pray for us? That is the topic of this thread, isn't it? If we can get back to the topic, I'll repeat of a simple truth I posted earlier:
I'm talking about the brown scapular.
I thought our discussion on prayer, and whether or not saints can hear us, was currently going over whether or not the visions were in fact valid manifestations of actual dead people.
Oh. I guess your description of it as a "get out of hell free" card is what threw me off. Do you really want answers to these questions, or is every one of my posts simply an opportinuity for everyone here to either insult me & my Catholic brothers or demostrate their utter ignornce of what Catholics actually believe? Because if the latter is the case, I will happily go elsewhere and leave the thread to devolve into a Catholic-bashing fest.
You know, for all you people who claim to know the Bible so well, you seem to have forgotten one of Jesus' most well known commands: Do unto others have you would have others do unto you. If you don't want me to insult and disrespect you, then I would appreciate the same consideration in return. If you really want answers to these questions, then please do not lace your questions with derrogatory and sarcastic remarks. I'm a human being, not a door mat
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 7:45:15 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
....Oh please show us in Scripture where the Bible says the Pope is infallible....
I will respect the rules of the forum and not go off topic. If you want to start a thread on Papal Infallibility, go ahead. If you want an answer to that question, here - for about the 6th time - is the link that has your answer: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
Otherwise, this thread is about whether or not Chrsitians can ask Christians in heaven to pray for them the same way they ask Christians on earth to pray for them.
On that topic, I am still waiting for someone to refute this simple premise I put forth earlier:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Can you refute this premise?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 8:32:47 PM
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Zhi
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Hmm. You tell us we're wrong, substandard disobedient Christians, accuse us of following a false teacher/cult leader wholesale, accused us of not reading the thread, and my attempts and humor are insulting? You have strange standards. *shrug* Regardless, I apologize if you took that as an insult, I was merely attempting a little lighthearted humor and it was not my intent to offend you.
Your simple premise breaks down on #2. In order to ask someone to do something effectively, you need to make sure they can actually hear you, whether it's me asking my husband to take the trash out, or you asking a dead saint to pray for you. Otherwise it's a pointless exercise.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 7/23/2008 8:44:03 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 8:51:45 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hmm. You tell us we're wrong, substandard disobedient Christians, accuse us of following a false teacher/cult leader wholesale....
I never said you were substandard: I would never say such a rude thing, so I think you have accused me falsely. I never accused you "of following a false teacher/cult leader wholesale". If you are referring to Todd Bentley, I said "many" protestansts believe him, I did not say "most" of you do. And I'm right: Many do. Again, you have accused me falsely. As for being wrong, of course I think you're wrong, just as you think I'm wrong. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other. But when questions are laced with insults, do you really expect a thoughtfull answer in return?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
...and my attempts and humor are insulting?....
I'm afraid I saw no humor in them. But if you truly did not mean to be insulting, I will accept that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
.....You have strange standards. *shrug* Regardless, I apologize if you took that as an insult, I was merely attempting a little lighthearted humor and it was not my intent to offend you.....
Fair enough.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
.....Your simple premise breaks down on #2. In order to ask someone to do something effectively, you need to make sure they can actually hear you, whether it's me asking my husband to take the trash out, or you asking a dead saint to pray for you. Otherwise it's a pointless exercise.
Ah. So you want to know if they can hear us? Here are three points to consider:
1) Luke 15:10: "..."In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." This scripture illustrates that angels are aware of our repentence, which is a matter of the heart. Angels are pure spirit, and those who have gone on to heaven are pure spirit too now. I think its a fair assumption to say that if God allows angels to know such things that He would not withold them from the saints. The idea that some spirits are aware of things on earth while others are not is implausible to me.
2) 2 Tim 1-4 says that God is pleased when we intercede for each other. Again, it is logical that God would allow those in heaven to do what is pleasing to Him, just as it is logical that the saints would want to do what is pleasing to Him. I believe that if God knows I am asking a brother to pray for me, God certainly would not stand in the way. As I said: Intercessions are pleasing to God, according to the Bible.
3) I will use a quote for the third point:
quote:
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
source: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Oh, and one last thing: People in heaven are not dead. In fact, I would say that they are more alive than we are.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:27:22 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Does this interpretation line up with the OT use of incense, etc.? If you will, examine Leviticus and tell me if this is the only conclusion available.
It seems pretty cut and dry: ".....golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Of course, Revelation uses a lot of symbology: Obviously, no one in heaven actually has actual incense in a real physical bowl. But the symbology reflects that those in heaven are interceding. This is John's vision of heaven, and I believe that 5:8 take place BEFORE the final judgement if I'm not mistaken.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:32:21 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Oh, and one last thing: People in heaven are not dead. In fact, I would say that they are more alive than we are.
TheCatholicCrusader,
I very much agree with this statement. However, there is no indication that their purpose is (even partially) to be an intermediary for us. That was the work of Christ. He is all in all.
Well, I hate to sound like a broken record, but have you not ever asked a friend to pray for you? Does not 2 Tim 1-4 say that such intercessory prayer on behalf of each other is pleasing to God? So why would God be displeased with it just because one party happens to be in heaven instead of on earth?
Really: Just think about it for a sec. Why would He be displeased by that?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:33:17 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
1) Luke 15:10: "..."In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." This scripture illustrates that angels are aware of our repentence, which is a matter of the heart. Angels are pure spirit, and those who have gone on to heaven are pure spirit too. I thinks its a fair assumption to say that if God allows angels to know such things that He would not withold them from the saints. The idea that some spirits are aware of things on earth while others are noty is implausible to me.
Specific event. It would not surprise me that when a sinner repents, God announces it to all of heaven. After all, who could not be joyful over that? That doesn't mean that God is giving a play-by-play of everything that happens on this planet, although He is certainly aware of it.
quote:
2) 2 Tim 1-4 says that God is pleased when we intercede for each other. Again, it is logical that God would allow those in heaven to do what is pleasing to Him, just as it is logical that the saints would want to do what is pleasing to Him. I believe that if God knows I am asking a brother to pray for me, God certainly would not stand in the way. As I said: Intercessions are pleasing to God, according to the Bible.
I am not sure where the verse you are referencing is.
God is also pleased when we care for widows and orphans and help the poor. Do you think there will also be widows, orphans, and poor in Heaven just so we can please God in our treatment of them?
quote:
3) I will use a quote for the third point:
quote:
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Revelations 5:8 does not indicate where the prayers came from, other than "the saints". Protestants believe that those of us who are saved are all saints. I can give you plenty of verses referencing saints who have not died if you would like. The vials, specifically, can either be the prayers of the still-living saints, or they could be the prayers of the dead saints. Either way, there is no indication of the actual contents of the prayers, whether they are asking for intercession or giving praise. There is also no indication of whether anyone but God knows what they're about. There's also no indicator of when those prayers were from either. So, that's a tad weak I'm afraid.
Take, as a counterexample, Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.
Paul is basically saying that while he would be happier dead and with Christ, he needs to remain alive in order to help the Philippians and others. If the Philippians could just pray to a dead Paul and have him intercede for them on a higher level than anyone can intercede here on earth, as you assert, then this wouldn't be the case.
Furthermore, in order to effectively intercede, the saints would have to be omniscient and omnipresent, so that they can not only hear every simultaneous prayer everywhere that invokes them, but also comprehend and forward every simultaneous prayer to God (feast days must be extra-difficult). Given that God is the only one ever described in Scripture as all-powerful, all-present, and all-knowing, I find this rather unlikely.
quote:
Oh, and one last thing: People in heaven are not dead. In fact, I would say that they are more alive than we are.
Their physical bodies are unequivocally dead, RCC should know this better than anyone since they occassionally parade small pieces of them around in reliquaries and create shrines at their tombs. That won't be rectified until the Resurrection, at which point we will all be truly alive in all senses.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:39:47 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Oh, and one last thing: People in heaven are not dead. In fact, I would say that they are more alive than we are.
Their physical bodies are unequivocally dead....
Aw come on, you can do better than that. We are not talking about their bodies. We are talking about their immortal spirit, or as Hebrews 12:23 calls them, "....the spirits of the righteous made perfect." Even old WesP agrees with that much of what I am saying:
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
....People in heaven are not dead......
.....I very much agree with this statement......
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:42:13 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
What is your response to the question?
What question? You mean, why would God be displeased? I don't think He would be. That's my point.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:45:04 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
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quote:
Well, I hate to sound like a broken record, but have you not ever asked a friend to pray for you? Does not 2 Tim 1-4 say that such intercessory prayer on behalf of each other is pleasing to God? So why would God be displeased with it just because one party happens to be in heaven instead of on earth?
Well, sure, but I don't pray for a friend to pray for me, because they wouldn't know. I have to directly communicate my need to them. I also can't communicate that need when 5 other people are also trying to communicate a need, because they won't understand us all talking at the same time at them.
quote:
Really: Just think about it for a sec. Why would He be displeased by that?
I think He might be if worshipful language is used for that saint that should be reserved for God. I also am not sure whether or not the direct forbiddance of trying to talk to the dead from Deuteronomy 18 applies, but frankly I wouldn't risk it.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:48:17 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
Aw come on, you can do better than that. We are not talking about their bodies. We are talking about their immortal spirit, or as Hebrews 12:23 calls them, "....the spirits of the righteous made perfect." Even old WesP agrees with that much of what I am saying:
Their spirits are not dead. Their bodies are. Would you prefer half-alive? Semi-dead? Either way, you're arguing semantics, you know what I mean. The point is that they are not available for direct communication, they have shuffled off this mortal coil, they are no longer among us, they have for all intents and purposes vacated the planet. The Bible mentions "the dead in Christ" and the like plenty, are you saying the Bible is also inaccurate?
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 9:57:59 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Well, I hate to sound like a broken record, but have you not ever asked a friend to pray for you? Does not 2 Tim 1-4 say that such intercessory prayer on behalf of each other is pleasing to God? So why would God be displeased with it just because one party happens to be in heaven instead of on earth?
Well, sure, but I don't pray for a friend to pray for me, because they wouldn't know. I have to directly communicate my need to them. I also can't communicate that need when 5 other people are also trying to communicate a need, because they won't understand us all talking at the same time at them.
"With men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible."  gottcha
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Really: Just think about it for a sec. Why would He be displeased by that?
I think He might be if worshipful language is used for that saint that should be reserved for God. I also am not sure whether or not the direct forbiddance of trying to talk to the dead from Deuteronomy 18 applies, but frankly I wouldn't risk it.
1) On line one, I agree. You see how well we understand each other when you are nice? 
2) Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad. But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters.. ..and mother. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known. See?
I'm signing off for tonight. I'll be back tomorrow. Have a good night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 10:14:28 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Otherwise, this thread is about whether or not Chrsitians can ask Christians in heaven to pray for them the same way they ask Christians on earth to pray for them.
No actually the quesion is wheher one should adk dead departed folks to pray for them that may be Christian, or might be in hell instead of heaven.
And besides you are the one that brought up the infallibility nonsense.
Jesus said to pray to God in the Name of Jesus, why in the World do you insist on doing something different, something man made up without any Scriptural support?
Thanks
RC
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 10:21:48 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
"With men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible." gottcha
Making the saints omniscient and omnipresent (basically equal with God) might be theoretically possible, but God does not share His glory and there would be no reason for Him to do so. I am not sure if that would be one of those things that God cannot do because it violates His nature (God cannot lie, for instance.)
quote:
But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters.. ..and mother. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known. See?
So, now we're telling God to tell the Saints to tell God something. This is getting rather complicated. And, if you add the fact that Jesus is our stated sole intermediary to God according to Scripture, we're telling Jesus to tell God to tell the Saints to tell Jesus to tell God something.
That seems a little over-complex and unprecedented by Scripture.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/23/2008 11:04:33 PM
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gatolover
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Zhi wrote:
quote:
but God does not share His glory
Cut and pasted for brevity only. In Christ's High Priestly prayer in John 17, He specifically prayed:
"I pray not only for them [the Apostles], but also for those who will believe in me through their word, SO THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN ME AND I IN YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I HAVE GIVEN THEM THE GLORY YOU GAVE ME, so that they may be one, AS WE ARE ONE. John 17: 20-22
Christ our Lord spoke of a whole lot of unity among Christians. He also wasn't very selfish about "shar[ing] His glory" according to the Gospels.
quote:
I am not sure if that would be one of those things that God cannot do because it violates His nature (God cannot lie, for instance.)
And Scripture affirms God is Love and the Author of Life, filled with Grace and Truth. Pure love must be shared to be real, and Grace must be abundant to be effective. I can't understand how some people believe in a selfish, wrathful God who withholds the gifts He clearly promises to His people in Scripture. It's almost like they presume they are the only ones loved by our Lord, which seems rather selfishly childlike to me.
For what it's worth.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 12:25:26 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
Cut and pasted for brevity only. In Christ's High Priestly prayer in John 17, He specifically prayed:
"I pray not only for them [the Apostles], but also for those who will believe in me through their word, SO THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN ME AND I IN YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I HAVE GIVEN THEM | | | |
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