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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/18/2009 2:55:46 PM
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ushalk
Posts: 317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
but does it mean that we ask her to forgive us or that we place claim to her like the prayer i put up and was magically ignored.
I don't have any issues with the prayer you put up and I wasn't ignoring you, just don't have anything to say, as it seams clear to me the difference between being a "refuge of sinners" and forgiving a sin. Mary does not forgive sins.
Pax,
Mary
what is the difference in that and stating that she forgives sinners. we do not put our refuge into her as she is not the one that died on the cross for us. christ is the only propitiation for sin. this is what the word of god states.
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/18/2009 4:46:42 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
I understand that you might be saying "technically God forgives sins" but if a priest says "I absolve you" (I assume you've been to confession and heard this?), then are you saying that Mary doesn't have more power to forgive sins than a priest? Seriously?
-TurretinFan
Turretinfan
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary. This pardon is received by individuals in two ways given to us by Christ, Baptism and Confession. Priest absolve in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but you knew that, the grace and the pardon comes from God in a sacrament given to us by Christ the way He intended it to be.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/18/2009 5:01:09 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
what is the difference in that and stating that she forgives sinners. we do not put our refuge into her as she is not the one that died on the cross for us. christ is the only propitiation for sin. this is what the word of god states.
Ushalk,
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/18/2009 9:45:54 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
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Catholicandloveit,
quote:
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
And turning to Jesus........just not enough of a "someone" for refuge......not enough help?
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/18/2009 9:49:35 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
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Turretinfan,
Mary said this;
quote:
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary. This pardon is received by individuals in two ways given to us by Christ, Baptism and Confession. Priest absolve in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but you knew that, the grace and the pardon comes from God in a sacrament given to us by Christ the way He intended it to be.
So much for sovereign grace I suppose.
As we can see, the finished work of Jesus is just not finished until everybody else puts on the finishing touches.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 7:59:46 AM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
I understand that you might be saying "technically God forgives sins" but if a priest says "I absolve you" (I assume you've been to confession and heard this?), then are you saying that Mary doesn't have more power to forgive sins than a priest? Seriously?
-TurretinFan
Turretinfan
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary. This pardon is received by individuals in two ways given to us by Christ, Baptism and Confession. Priest absolve in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but you knew that, the grace and the pardon comes from God in a sacrament given to us by Christ the way He intended it to be.
Pax,
Mary
What I know is that Roman Catholicism these days, especially in English-speaking countries (less so in other countries) has become highly Protestant-ized, to the point where folks are not just afraid to admit what the true teachings of Catholicism about the role of Mary, the saints, and the priesthood are - in some cases they haven't been told!
But let me ask you again to clarify: Are you affirming or denying that Mary has more power to forgive sins than a priest?
-TurretinFan
_____________________________
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 2:29:05 PM
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ushalk
Posts: 317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
what is the difference in that and stating that she forgives sinners. we do not put our refuge into her as she is not the one that died on the cross for us. christ is the only propitiation for sin. this is what the word of god states.
Ushalk,
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
Pax,
Mary
so christ and what he did is not enough? he did it all and the bible states one mediater between man and god. the man jesus christ. it does not state anywhere that mary is a refuge of any kind. not even in all the extra books of the catholic bible.
if mary is our refuge then what did christ do?
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 3:11:33 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Ushalk,
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
Pax,
Mary
so christ and what he did is not enough? he did it all and the bible states one mediater between man and god. the man jesus christ. it does not state anywhere that mary is a refuge of any kind. not even in all the extra books of the catholic bible.
if mary is our refuge then what did christ do?
How is saying that Mary or any saint helps us = to Christ not being enough. I turn to my mom for help sometimes but that doesn't mean that my dad, or siblings are worthless. I ask my husband for help but that doesn't mean my friends are pointless.
Mary herself knew she needed a Saviour, and her soul always glorifies the lord, she takes nothing away from her son - Luke 1.46: And Mary said "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour"
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 3:22:07 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
What I know is that Roman Catholicism these days, especially in English-speaking countries (less so in other countries) has become highly Protestant-ized, to the point where folks are not just afraid to admit what the true teachings of Catholicism about the role of Mary, the saints, and the priesthood are - in some cases they haven't been told!
Agreed
quote:
But let me ask you again to clarify: Are you affirming or denying that Mary has more power to forgive sins than a priest?
-TurretinFan
Mary does not forgive sins.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 3:51:32 PM
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ushalk
Posts: 317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Ushalk,
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
Pax,
Mary
so christ and what he did is not enough? he did it all and the bible states one mediater between man and god. the man jesus christ. it does not state anywhere that mary is a refuge of any kind. not even in all the extra books of the catholic bible.
if mary is our refuge then what did christ do?
How is saying that Mary or any saint helps us = to Christ not being enough. I turn to my mom for help sometimes but that doesn't mean that my dad, or siblings are worthless. I ask my husband for help but that doesn't mean my friends are pointless.
Mary herself knew she needed a Saviour, and her soul always glorifies the lord, she takes nothing away from her son - Luke 1.46: And Mary said "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour"
Pax,
Mary
yes but do you refer to then as a refuge for your sin?
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/19/2009 4:11:41 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
yes but do you refer to then as a refuge for your sin?
Mary is not a refuge for my sin, she is a refuge a help for me a sinner.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/20/2009 7:54:36 AM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
But let me ask you again to clarify: Are you affirming or denying that Mary has more power to forgive sins than a priest?
-TurretinFan Mary does not forgive sins.
I certainly agree that she doesn't, although folks in Catholicism sometimes do treat her as though she did. For example, St. Alphonsus de Ligouri declares that "Mary is our life, because she obtains for us the pardon of our sins." According to Ligouri, Richard of St. Laurence similarly stated, "that if we hope to receive the grace of God, we must go to Mary, who has found it, and finds it always."
Now I realize that someone will say that Mary obtains pardon for them from God, so that she simply serves as a mediator between God and man. But when a priest forgives sin, he says "I absolve you," does he not? I admit that I haven't been in a confessional box recently, but isn't that still the way it's done?
If then it is proper to say that a priest forgives sin, but it is not proper to say that Mary forgives sin, doesn't that suggest she has less power to forgive sins than a priest? Isn't it more effectual in Catholicism to seek the refuge of one's priest than Mary?
-TurretinFan
_____________________________
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/20/2009 10:23:31 AM
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ushalk
Posts: 317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
yes but do you refer to then as a refuge for your sin?
Mary is not a refuge for my sin, she is a refuge a help for me a sinner.
so now we are right back where we started. christ is not enough so you need mary to. i dont know i feel as though christ is all i need. i am content with him and him alone. i know that he will help me through anything that i am going through or could go through.
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/20/2009 10:46:46 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk
so now we are right back where we started. christ is not enough so you need mary to. i dont know i feel as though christ is all i need. i am content with him and him alone. i know that he will help me through anything that i am going through or could go through.
Without Mary Christ would not have been born into this world, so yes she is important, was needed then, and can be a help now. Christ is most certainly enough I have never said other wise, however sometimes it is helpful to have the help and support of others. This is why we as Christians can ask others to pray for us and why we as Catholics can ask the saints to do the same. I use the word can very deliberately, no Catholic has to pray to the saints or Mary to be a "good" Catholic.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/20/2009 11:13:56 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
But when a priest forgives sin, he says "I absolve you," does he not? I admit that I haven't been in a confessional box recently, but isn't that still the way it's done?
Yes the important words to hear are "I absolve you" without them the sacrament is not valid, however I have never only heard "I absolve you" its always something more like this - "May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His authority I absolve you from your sins, so far as my power allows and your needs require. Thereupon, I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen." or something like this - "May our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, by the grace and compassion of His love for mankind, forgive you, my child, [name], all your transgressions. And I His unworthy Priest, through the power given me, forgive and absolve you from all your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
quote:
If then it is proper to say that a priest forgives sin, but it is not proper to say that Mary forgives sin, doesn't that suggest she has less power to forgive sins than a priest? Isn't it more effectual in Catholicism to seek the refuge of one's priest than Mary?
To say she has less would be to say she has at least some power to forgive which she does not, not to mention that it is through Gods authority that priest can bestow absolution but it is done in the name of God not Fr. "so and so". The power and grace comes not from the priest or Mary but God.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/20/2009 10:28:02 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 681
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ushalk,
You wrote: quote:
so now we are right back where we started. christ is not enough so you need mary to. i dont know i feel as though christ is all i need. i am content with him and him alone. i know that he will help me through anything that i am going through or could go through.
I wonder what you make of 1 Cor. 12:14-26? Familiar with the passages? Realize it is immediately followed by St. Paul's exquisite exposition on the true meaning of Love? Godly Love. Saintly Love. One and the same. How someone can claim to "love" Jesus alone and not be bound to brothers and sisters in Christ makes no sense to my Christian sensibility.
I wish you Peace and a realization you are not alone.
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/21/2009 9:56:04 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
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Catholicandloveit,
quote:
Without Mary Christ would not have been born into this world, so yes she is important, was needed then, and can be a help now. Christ is most certainly enough I have never said other wise, however sometimes it is helpful to have the help and support of others. This is why we as Christians can ask others to pray for us and why we as Catholics can ask the saints to do the same. I use the word can very deliberately, no Catholic has to pray to the saints or Mary to be a "good" Catholic.
Would it be helpful for Mary to banish the demon to the infernal depths?
It Is Sweet Music
It is sweet music to the ear to say:
I honor you, O Mother!
It is a sweet song to repeat:
I honor you, O holy Mother!
You are my delight, dear hope, and chaste love,
my strength in all adversities.
If my spirit that is troubled
and stricken by passions
suffers from the painful burden
of sadness and weeping,
if you see your child overwhelmed by misfortune,
O gracious Virgin Mary,
let me find rest in your motherly embrace.
But alas,
already the last day is quickly approaching.
Banish the demon to the infernal depths,
and stay closer, dear Mother,
to your aged and erring child.
With a gentle touch,
cover the wary pupils
and kindly consign to God
the soul that is returning to him.
Amen.
Pope Leo XIII (1810-1903)
(Pontiff 1879-1903)
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 1:30:55 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
The real issue is whether or not this lines up with Scripture. As a matter of fact, it does not, since Psalm 46:1 clearly states:
GOD IS OUR REFUGE AND STRENGTH, A VERY PRESENT HELP IN TROUBLE
Therefore it is blasphemous to make Mary our refuge and help. And Mary would be the frist one to say this, since she is also the one who said "My soul doth magnify the LORD" (Lk. 1:46). Mary's soul magnified the Lord, but the RCC magnifies Mary against her wishes, since she also said "Holy is HIS NAME" (v 49).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 7:05:39 AM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
To say she has less would be to say she has at least some power to forgive which she does not, not to mention that it is through Gods authority that priest can bestow absolution but it is done in the name of God not Fr. "so and so". The power and grace comes not from the priest or Mary but God.
With respect to the priest you must be making a distinction between "from" and "through." Even if you think it doesn't come "from" the priest, surely you must view it as coming "through" the priest. Don't feel the same way about Mary? I know that the dogma of co-mediation hasn't been formally defined yet, but don't you accept Mary as a mediator?
-TurretinFan
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 8:15:11 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
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Catholicandloveit,
quote:
Christ is most certainly enough I have never said other wise, however sometimes it is helpful to have the help and support of others. This is why we as Christians can ask others to pray for us and why we as Catholics can ask the saints to do the same. I use the word can very deliberately, no Catholic has to pray to the saints or Mary to be a "good" Catholic.
Here is a prayer to Mary from Pope John Paul II;
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/prayers_by_pope_john_paul_ii.html
Here are portions of it;
Speak to us continually! And obtain for us the grace–even if we are distant......
With your prayer, obtain justice for us. Safeguard peace in the whole world!
Mother of the Church, grant that the Church may enjoy freedom and peace in fulfilling her saving mission and that to this end she may become mature with a new maturity of faith and inner unity.
Grant that there may be no lack of “laborers in the Lord’s vineyard.” Sanctify families.
I ask you to reconcile those in sin, to heal those in pain, and to uplift those who have lost their hope and joy.
This is more than turning to someone for a little help.
Those in the RCC constantly act as if these prayers are simply communicating to people for help.
I would like to see ONE Roman Catholic speak to other people in their congregation like they pray to Mary.
Mary obtains grace for people......and where is this in Scripture?
Mary safeguards peace in the world......and where is this in Scripture?
I thought Mary was supposed to be a mediator or helper of sorts......but here we have the pope asking Mary to grant that the Church may enjoy freedom and peace........
I dont know if Mary knows it......but people in the RCC are being killed in Mexico.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33846&cb300=vocations
It shows how futile these prayers to Mary are.....it shows how helpless she is and that she has no power to grant anything.
Mary is in the work of sanctifying families......and that is in Scripture?
Mary reconciles those in sin.......heals people in pain.......also in Scripture?
People in the RCC pray to her as if she is the queen of the universe.
http://www.maryqueenoftheuniverse.org/
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 11:43:56 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Mary is a refuge, someone we can turn to for help.
The real issue is whether or not this lines up with Scripture. As a matter of fact, it does not, since Psalm 46:1 clearly states:
GOD IS OUR REFUGE AND STRENGTH, A VERY PRESENT HELP IN TROUBLE
I am sorry that you understand this to mean that we can not be a help to each other.
Peace be with you,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 12:29:22 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
To say she has less would be to say she has at least some power to forgive which she does not, not to mention that it is through Gods authority that priest can bestow absolution but it is done in the name of God not Fr. "so and so". The power and grace comes not from the priest or Mary but God.
With respect to the priest you must be making a distinction between "from" and "through." Even if you think it doesn't come "from" the priest, surely you must view it as coming "through" the priest. Don't feel the same way about Mary? I know that the dogma of co-mediation hasn't been formally defined yet, but don't you accept Mary as a mediator?
-TurretinFan
Yes I am, through the priest as Christ intended and commissioned, coming from God. I don't feel the same about Mary in the context of the forgiveness of sins.
As far as Mary's mediation - "The Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men originates not in any inner necessity but in the disposition of God. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it" (Lumen gentium, n. 60).
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 2:32:49 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I would like to see ONE Roman Catholic speak to other people in their congregation like they pray to Mary.
Do you speak to people in the same manner in which you pray? I don't but maybe thats just me.
quote:
I thought Mary was supposed to be a mediator or helper of sorts......
From http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/coredemptrix.htm on Mediation
Mediator and Mediatrix
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus….” (1 Tim 2:5). There is only one Mediator between God and Creation: Jesus Christ. Therefore, Mary’s role as Mediatrix cannot be that of a female mediator. The role of Mediatrix is fundamentally different from the role of Mediator, because the role of women in God's plan is fundamentally different from the role of men. The feminine form of the word implies both that the person is female and that the role is a feminine role. The feminine role called “Mediatrix” is to be a helper to the Mediator. Christ mediates between God and humanity; Mary merely assists Christ. Mary participates in Christ’s mediation, but she herself does not mediate.
Mary’s assistance to Christ does not consist in doing what Christ does in a lesser way. Mary does not mediate, not even in a subordinate or auxiliary way. When Christ taught the crowds, Mary did not stand at His side and add her own words to His Word. When Christ led the Apostles, Mary was not second in command. Mary’s role is not a reduced version of Christ’s role. Mary’s role is not a secondary or lesser type of Christ’s role. Mary’s role in God’s plan is fundamentally and radically different than Christ’s role.
As Mediatrix, Mary’s role is not to mediate, not even in a secondary or auxiliary way. Mary’s role as Mediatrix is to help and assist Christ. Mary does not mediate, she merely assists the One who does mediate. In no way and in no sense of the word is Mary a mediator. The role of Mediatrix is merely to assist the one Mediator, Jesus Christ. Mary assists Christ in His work as Mediator, not by doing any mediating herself, not even with and under Christ. Rather, she assists Christ by helping Him when He mediates. The Virgin Mary participates in Christ’s work of mediation, but she does not, in any way whatsoever, act as a mediator herself. Mary does not stand before God to Mediate for the People of God. Instead, she kneels before Christ, in worship of Him, and assists Christ as He stands before the Father as the one Mediator.
quote:
I dont know if Mary knows it......but people in the RCC are being killed in Mexico.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33846&cb300=vocations
It shows how futile these prayers to Mary are.....it shows how helpless she is and that she has no power to grant anything.
People are killed everyday, would that also show how powerless God is. Careful there friend.
Pax,
Mary
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 6/22/2009 3:44:31 PM >
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Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/22/2009 2:44:56 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
And Mary would not have the role of Mediatrix at all, except that Christ exercised His role as Mediator perfectly in her case.
Help me out with this one, if you will, Mary.
What exactly does this mean, and who made this determination? Also, I am wondering why there is supposition that Christ would need or desire help. As always, thanks!
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Peace,
Wes
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