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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/8/2009 4:13:53 PM
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ushalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
To understand how Catholics view Mary in the role of being the mother of Jesus, the first question to ask and answer is:
- Did Mary have to agree, assent, or obey to bear Jesus, or was she programmed, forced, coerced or other involuntarily bear our Savior?
Answer that question the way a Catholic does, and all the other pieces fall into place.
The "co-mediator" has as much to do with translating out of Latin as anything. If you order "Chili con carne", the "con" is translated as "with". You get a little meat with your chili.
Translate this root out of lating to English, and you get "co", as in "co-pilot". Mary's role and title in this regard that Jesus is begotten, not made. Jesus could not be "without" Mary, so Jesus was born "with" Mary. God's plan came together "with" mMary.
Pure blasphemy to say that Jesus "couldn't be" without Mary!
These Marian doctrines, along with praying to saints, do nothing but rob God of His glory. The Lord Jesus Christ says to pray: "Our Father..." but RC says to pray: "Hail Mary..."
thank you kelman. you are right brother.
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/8/2009 4:32:27 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Lord Jesus Christ says to pray: "Our Father..."
So is this the only prayer that ever leaves your lips?
Its been posted time and time again, but here it is again -
The Hail Mary incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28), and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42:).
The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary, originally written in Koine Greek. The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε, chaíre, here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are valid English translations of the word.
The word κεχαριτωμένη, (kecharitōménē), here translated as "full of grace", admits of various translations. Grammatically, the word is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb χαριτόω[2], charitóō, which means "to show, or bestow with, grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown, or bestowed upon, one". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "full of grace".[3]
Pax,
Mary
edited to fix a problem with a reference. 
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 7/9/2009 1:41:52 PM >
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/8/2009 4:53:29 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4168
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Lord Jesus Christ says to pray: "Our Father..."
So is this the only prayer that ever leaves your lips?
Its been posted time and time again, but here it is again -
The Hail Mary incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28), and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42:).
The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary, originally written in Koine Greek. The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε, chaíre, here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are valid English translations of the word.
The word κεχαριτωμένη, (kecharitōménē), here translated as "full of grace", admits of various translations. Grammatically, the word is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb χαριτόω[2], charitóō, which means "to show, or bestow with, grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown, or bestowed upon, one". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "full of grace".[3]
The text also appears in the account of the annunciation contained in the Gospel of Matthew, in chapter 9.
Pax,
Mary
Every prayer I ever pray begins with Our Father or Heavenly Father or something to that effect. If Jesus says that's how we are to pray, that's how we are to pray.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/8/2009 6:20:32 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2080
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quote:
Every prayer I ever pray begins with Our Father or Heavenly Father or something to that effect. If Jesus says that's how we are to pray, that's how we are to pray.
Stella do you know if Jesus ran that by Mary or the saints first before He declared that?
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
We are the objects of God's grace. Let Him be the object of our gratitude.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/8/2009 7:41:29 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Lord Jesus Christ says to pray: "Our Father..." So is this the only prayer that ever leaves your lips? As a genre - yes. No prayers to anyone but God.
quote:
Its been posted time and time again, but here it is again - And so a rebuttal must (presumably again) be posted:
quote:
The Hail Mary incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:28), and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42:). (a)It "incorporates" those verses (adding a "Mary" into the first and a "Jesus" to the last), but Scripture nowhere exhorts or even encourages us to turn those two separate greetings into a prayer.
(b)In fact, Scripture never encourages any prayer to Mary.
(c)Furthermore, in addition to incorporating those two verses, it adds the unbiblical designation "Mother of God" and requests Mary's intercession especially at death (implicitly contradicting Scripture's mandate of one mediator).
quote:
The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary, originally written in Koine Greek. The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε, chaíre, here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are valid English translations of the word. Both "hail" and "rejoice" are within the semantic domain of the word χαῖρε, but the context suggests that the proper translation may be "rejoice." There's no need to be especially dogmatic about that.
quote:
The word κεχαριτωμένη, (kecharitōménē), here translated as "full of grace", admits of various translations. It doesn't reasonably admit of the translation "full of grace." "Full of Grace" is not a translation of κεχαριτωμένη so much as it is a translation of the Latin "gratia plena" (the language in which this prayer was composed). The Latin "gratia plena" was intended as a translation of κεχαριτωμένη, but it is not a good translation of the word. Instead, the word means "highly favored."
quote:
Grammatically, the word is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb χαριτόω[2], charitóō, which means "to show, or bestow with, grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown, or bestowed upon, one". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "full of grace".[3] Presumably that footnote in whatever source you cut-and-pasted this from would have pointed out that Greek scholars generally reject "full of grace" because of its inaccuracy to the Greek language.
quote:
The text also appears in the account of the annunciation contained in the Gospel of Matthew, in chapter 9. (a) There's nothing about the annunciation in Matthew 9.
(b) Matthew 1:19 and following record the angelic announcement to Joseph, and don't include these words.
(c) The only other place where the verb χαριτόω is used in the New Testament is Ephesians 1:6, where it is used of believers in general and translated "made accepted."
-TurretinFan
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 12:45:27 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Lord Jesus Christ says to pray: "Our Father..."
So is this the only prayer that ever leaves your lips? It's what Jesus taught so why pray contrary to His teachings?
In the Bible, the only ones who don't pray to God are the pagans...why be in their company?
quote:
Its been posted time and time again, but here it is again -..... None of which gives license to pray to anyone but God.
If Jesus is the example, then why not follow not only His example but His explicit teaching?
Of all the RC doctrines, this is the most dangerous to those who practice it.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 12:46:27 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
Every prayer I ever pray begins with Our Father or Heavenly Father or something to that effect. If Jesus says that's how we are to pray, that's how we are to pray.
Stella do you know if Jesus ran that by Mary or the saints first before He declared that?
He must have, since we all that Jesus couldn't even "be" without Mary.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 8:47:03 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
He must have, since we all that Jesus couldn't even "be" without Mary.
Does life not need a mother and a father? Could we "be" with out either one?
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 12:07:40 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2080
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From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
Does life not need a mother and a father? Could we "be" with out either one?
"We" could not be without either one. "He" as God the Son has existed eternally, has never not existed, and had mary never been born it would not have changed His preeminence one iota. Without mary He still would be He.
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
We are the objects of God's grace. Let Him be the object of our gratitude.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 1:28:55 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
Does life not need a mother and a father? Could we "be" with out either one?
"We" could not be without either one. "He" as God the Son has existed eternally, has never not existed, and had mary never been born it would not have changed His preeminence one iota. Without mary He still would be He.
He was God the Son before, during and after His time on earth yes, but to be born in human form, one needs a mother do they not?
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 4:47:29 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2080
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From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
He was God the Son before, during and after His time on earth yes, but to be born in human form, one needs a mother do they not?
Yes to be born of a woman one would need a mother. Mary, like every other person mentioned in scripture was a sinner whom God chose to use as a vessel for His glory.
Had mary never been born our sovereign God's gift of the incarnation would have still come to pass, and I'm sure the RCC would still have chosen to raise that person up on a platform that they don't belong. Which of course would have caused the name of this thread to be changed to " praying to the saints and Anna, or Bernice, or perhaps Claudia...or... you get my point.
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
We are the objects of God's grace. Let Him be the object of our gratitude.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 7:04:07 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
How obtuse. We're talking about religious prayers. Obtuse I didn't say anything about an angle exceeding 90 but less than 180 degrees.  One can say I pray to the saints, I pray to God, and I pray the court and mean very different ideas and yet all are very accurate to the definition of the word. Most people are able to figure out that praying, in a religious sense, is different from begging a court for something. And praying to God, or angels, or demons, or Mary are all examples of the same "sense" of the word "pray" even though the object of the prayer is different. In contrast, begging a court for something is (self-evidently to most of us) an entirely different undertaking. It's just as obfuscatory to bring up angles when you know that's not what is meant as it is to bring up court proceedings when you know that's in a different category.
Well I tried twice I'll go for a 3rd - It is self-evident to most of us that when we pray to the Saints, it is as different in intent as it is when we pray to the court, as it is when we Pray to God, and as different as an angle is to meaning of obtuse that you wanted.
Have a nice night
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 7:10:02 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Had mary never been born our sovereign God's gift of the incarnation would have still come to pass, and I'm sure the RCC would still have chosen to raise that person up on a platform that they don't belong. Which of course would have caused the name of this thread to be changed to " praying to the saints and Anna, or Bernice, or perhaps Claudia...or... you get my point.
Well at least we agree that Jesus needed a person on earth to be born.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 7:24:51 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5308
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
How obtuse. We're talking about religious prayers. Obtuse I didn't say anything about an angle exceeding 90 but less than 180 degrees. One can say I pray to the saints, I pray to God, and I pray the court and mean very different ideas and yet all are very accurate to the definition of the word. Most people are able to figure out that praying, in a religious sense, is different from begging a court for something. And praying to God, or angels, or demons, or Mary are all examples of the same "sense" of the word "pray" even though the object of the prayer is different. In contrast, begging a court for something is (self-evidently to most of us) an entirely different undertaking. It's just as obfuscatory to bring up angles when you know that's not what is meant as it is to bring up court proceedings when you know that's in a different category. Well I tried twice I'll go for a 3rd - It is self-evident to most of us that when we pray to the Saints, it is as different in intent as it is when we pray to the court, as it is when we Pray to God, and as different as an angle is to meaning of obtuse that you wanted. The fact that both prayers (prayers to God and prayers to Mary) are part of the same "praying the Rosary" strongly suggests that you're actually using the term "pray" in the same way when you speak of praying to Mary and praying to God. They are the same kind of thing, not different kinds of things. That's why your own church groups prayers to Mary with prayers to God (and not with court pleadings).
Here's the Catechism of the Catholic Church (4:1:2:2) i.e. Part Four: Christian Prayer; Section One: Prayer in the Christian Life; Chapter Two: The Tradition of Prayer; Article 2: The Way of Prayer
2664 relates to Prayer to the Father
2665-69 relate to Prayer to Jesus
2670-72 relate to Prayer to the Holy Spirit
2673-79 relate to Prayer to Mary
Those aren't the exact headings that are used, but that is the way it is divided (with 2663 serving as the introduction). So, I don't think it's an accurate representation of your religion for you to claim that prayer to Mary is something totally different and in a different category, like submitting documents to a court might be called a "prayer for relief."
-TurretinFan
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/9/2009 7:43:56 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Catholicandloveit,
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
KJB
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Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 1:52:38 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
He must have, since we all that Jesus couldn't even "be" without Mary.
Does life not need a mother and a father? Could we "be" with out either one?
Well, "we" are not "He"...makes a difference.
God made His plan of salvation to include the incarnation of the second Person of the Trinity....to be born of a woman.
This did not require "Mary" it simply required a woman.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 2:00:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
How obtuse. We're talking about religious prayers.
Obtuse I didn't say anything about an angle exceeding 90 but less than 180 degrees. One can say I pray to the saints, I pray to God, and I pray the court and mean very different ideas and yet all are very accurate to the definition of the word.
Mary
Presumably, the court to which one is "praying" is composed of people whose hearts are still beating and whose lungs still breathe air....that cannot be said of the people to whom you pray.
Besides, this is just another variation of the "Burger King" defense. A fellow RC made the ridiculous claim that praying to Mary is really no different than making a "request" of the fast food clerk.
In Scripture, the only praying we are commanded to engage in, and the only examples given are to God alone.
The only exception to this are the prayers offered by the pagans.
The real question is why anyone would choose the teaching of their church over and against that of God's?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 10:10:15 AM
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ushalk
Posts: 317
Joined: 4/15/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
How obtuse. We're talking about religious prayers. Obtuse I didn't say anything about an angle exceeding 90 but less than 180 degrees. One can say I pray to the saints, I pray to God, and I pray the court and mean very different ideas and yet all are very accurate to the definition of the word. Most people are able to figure out that praying, in a religious sense, is different from begging a court for something. And praying to God, or angels, or demons, or Mary are all examples of the same "sense" of the word "pray" even though the object of the prayer is different. In contrast, begging a court for something is (self-evidently to most of us) an entirely different undertaking. It's just as obfuscatory to bring up angles when you know that's not what is meant as it is to bring up court proceedings when you know that's in a different category.
Well I tried twice I'll go for a 3rd - It is self-evident to most of us that when we pray to the Saints, it is as different in intent as it is when we pray to the court, as it is when we Pray to God, and as different as an angle is to meaning of obtuse that you wanted.
Have a nice night
Mary
make up our minds. one statement you dont pray to the saints and the next you do. which is it? either you do or you dont.
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 3:02:00 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
but the context suggests that the proper translation may be "rejoice ...says who...??
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 3:09:04 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1174
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Without mary He still would be He. ...I disagree...He would have been made, not begotten. He would have been fabricated, not born. An essential part of the story is that the Savior is born of those being saved - with the consent of one of those being saved. Maybe doesn't change His pre-eminence, but it makes him Shiva or Apollo, and not Jesus.
Maybe this makes no difference in your faith, but your are casting away a lot of Scripture if you believe this. Jesus - fully human, fully God. Couldn't be human without Mary.
Had Mary been Barbara, Alice, Sue, Betty...? We could have that debate but it is moot. The fact is - born of Mary. Mary is His mother. That's the way God wanted and that's the way it was.
That some choose to dismiss the significance of this in the story is why there is a thread to discuss these types of topics. Some of us are amazed at the rest of you, and vice versa, I'm sure.
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 3:15:43 PM
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WesP
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
Had Mary been Barbara, Alice, Sue, Betty...? We could have that debate but it is moot. The fact is - born of Mary. Mary is His mother. That's the way God wanted and that's the way it was.
This is very true. I never have understood why this was part of the discussion, and I have seen it time and again.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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