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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 3:48:41 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse quote:
but the context suggests that the proper translation may be "rejoice ...says who...?? umm ... the context says it ... that's "who"
< Message edited by turretinfan -- 7/10/2009 4:48:54 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/10/2009 7:25:36 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
umm ... the context says it ... that's "who" I guess I see the context as being an enthusiastic greeting, or a shout to gain someone's attention, hence the English "Hail".
I think this thread has chewed the gristle out of "Kecharitomene" without either side giving much ground.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/11/2009 12:51:42 AM
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kelman
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quote:
quote:
Without mary He still would be He. ...I disagree...He would have been made, not begotten. He would have been fabricated, not born. An essential part of the story is that the Savior is born of those being saved - with the consent of one of those being saved. Maybe doesn't change His pre-eminence, but it makes him Shiva or Apollo, and not Jesus. Absurd. Who Jesus is would not change had He been born of another woman.
quote:
Maybe this makes no difference in your faith, but your are casting away a lot of Scripture if you believe this. Jesus - fully human, fully God. Couldn't be human without Mary. More absurdity. God's plans did not depend on Mary. Jesus would be just as fully human had He been born of another woman.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/11/2009 8:18:03 AM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
umm ... the context says it ... that's "who" I guess I see the context as being an enthusiastic greeting, or a shout to gain someone's attention, hence the English "Hail".
I think this thread has chewed the gristle out of "Kecharitomene" without either side giving much ground.
There is the context of it being a salutation, which is the one thing that does point toward it being "hail." However, the reasons to think it is being used as "rejoice" is that there is also:
a) The parallel expression in verse 30:
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
"Fear not" is parallel to "Rejoice"
and
"for thou hast found favour with God" is parallel to the heaped up "thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
b) Mary's song of joy in verse 46 and following
Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
-TurretinFan
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/11/2009 12:25:14 PM
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ushalk
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i think the point is simple. mary was used by god yes. but that does not mean that she reighns supreme over christ and god as you all would have it. if we pray to mary for forgiveness of our sins or for help in our soul, is ahe going to let us know that we are forgiven or send the holy spirit down to us as a comforter or wisdom or anything else for that matter? she has no power nor does the other saints. so there is no point in prying to them. not only that but the only scripture that you have that has anything to do with saints and prayer is in revelation.
it states that god will hear the prayers of the saints and throw them to the earth to be fulfilled. however we are all saints if we belong to christ. there is nothing in the bible that claims or states that the saints are those that have died away from the earth. there is not any scripture that backs this up.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:19:43 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
"for thou hast found favour with God" is parallel to the heaped up "thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
I have read some interesting comparisons of the the rendering of "kecharitomene" from "escharitosen", as an example. I think Luke's choice of sentence structure in Chapter 1 is speaking a lot in an economy of words by his selection of "kecharitomene" that goes beyond a rendering of "found favour".
It means graced, perfectly (which I believe is either "fully" or "completely", or both), completed at some point in the past, with perpetual endurance for the future. One could perhaps even read a mission or purpose into that - having been prepared in the past by divine favor, said preparation having been completed, for some special purpose or task that lies in the future.
I also think that in describing by the use of the tense selected the scope and timing of the "charitoo" received by Mary, that it is Luke's intention to describe that Mary's "charitoo" is different than any other "charitoo" that is described elsewhere in Scriptures.
Just a lay-dog's opinon and belief...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:28:04 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
if we pray to mary for forgiveness of our sins or for help in our soul, is ahe going to let us know that we are forgiven or send the holy spirit down to us as a comforter or wisdom or anything else for that matter? she has no power nor does the other saints. so there is no point in prying to them.
This isn't how it works. We appeal to the prayers of the Saints for assistance with our particular challenges. One of he ways this is effective for the faithful is by reflecting on the example of the Saint and their actions operating under God's grace in a similar challenge or circumstance, and seeking that same form of Grace from God for our own particular circumstance.
Mary is human, not divine. She is a Saint, not a god. She is revered as the example of charity and obedience, and her prayers are sought to assist us in those areas. Her assent to bear our Savior is of particular importance, because it is by her perfect obedience that we even have a Savior. God said that Jesus would be born of a woman - for this to fulfilled, a woman was required. This is the way God wanted it; no doubt God surely has the ability to zap Jesus down from heaven to be among us to complete His mission here.
While God had this ability, it was not His will. So - He required someone like Mary to fulfill His plan. So, what does that make Mary?
That's what this thread is about. Obviously, there are some disagreements.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:32:25 AM
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KingJamesBond
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Doghouse,
quote:
It means graced, perfectly (which I believe is either "fully" or "completely", or both), completed at some point in the past, with perpetual endurance for the future. One could perhaps even read a mission or purpose into that - having been prepared in the past by divine favor, said preparation having been completed, for some special purpose or task that lies in the future.
Are you saying Mary was chosen by God to be graced according to His divine favor before she had utilized her free-will?
Sounds like we are in the Calvinism thread! LOL
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
I think most of us would agree that the effectual part about Mary and her role in HIStory was because of divine favor and not because of her sinless nature or the virtues of her will, etc.
No where in Scripture are we told to go as extreme towards Mary as the RCC has done.
KJB
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:35:13 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
While God had this ability, it was not His will. So - He required someone like Mary to fulfill His plan. So, what does that make Mary?
Someone who had not had sexual relatons, had the correct linage, and could bear a child.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:38:17 AM
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KingJamesBond
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Doghouse,
quote:
She is revered as the example of charity and obedience, and her prayers are sought to assist us in those areas.
Jesus was charitable. He gave His life for sinners.
Jesus was obedient. He was obedient to death on a cross.
If Mary was obedient she would not have even needed a Savior.
quote:
Her assent to bear our Savior is of particular importance, because it is by her perfect obedience that we even have a Savior. God said that Jesus would be born of a woman - for this to fulfilled, a woman was required.
Women seem to give birth quite a lot in these parts where I live.
quote:
While God had this ability, it was not His will. So - He required someone like Mary to fulfill His plan. So, what does that make Mary?
The sinless all hearing and all knowing Queen of the universe? 
KJB
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 8:11:21 PM
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Doghouse
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...its a simple question...
quote:
Are you saying Mary was chosen by God to be graced according to His divine favor before she had utilized her free-will?
Sounds like we are in the Calvinism thread! LOL
quote:
Someone who had not had sexual relations, had the correct linage, and could bear a child.
...did Mary say "yes"? Was that decision and action of her own free will? What if she had said "no"?
quote:
If Mary was obedient she would not have even needed a Savior. Mary was obedient, and she still required a Savior, just as you and I do. She agreed to give birth to Him.
quote:
Jesus was charitable. He gave His life for sinners.
Jesus was obedient. He was obedient to death on a cross. But the way we know that this charity and obedience resides in humans and not just in the Divine is by the example of Mary, and by the examples of the other Saints. Flawed humans who mimicked Jesus by co-operating with the Grace of God.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2009 11:26:10 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Doghouse,
quote:
...did Mary say "yes"? Was that decision and action of her own free will? What if she had said "no"?
I used your own post;
quote:
It means graced, perfectly (which I believe is either "fully" or "completely", or both), completed at some point in the past, with perpetual endurance for the future. One could perhaps even read a mission or purpose into that - having been prepared in the past by divine favor, said preparation having been completed, for some special purpose or task that lies in the future.
Was it because of her being graced at some point in the past with perpetual endurance for the future having been prepared by divine favor.........OR her free-will?
quote:
Mary was obedient, and she still required a Savior, just as you and I do. She agreed to give birth to Him.
But you constantly change your tune;
quote:
Her assent to bear our Savior is of particular importance, because it is by her perfect obedience that we even have a Savior. God said that Jesus would be born of a woman - for this to fulfilled, a woman was required.
She was not perfect in obedience and her obedience is not why we have a Savior.
quote:
But the way we know that this charity and obedience resides in humans and not just in the Divine is by the example of Mary, and by the examples of the other Saints. Flawed humans who mimicked Jesus by co-operating with the Grace of God.
Well, many people focus on the mimmicks and gimmicks.
KJB
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 2:50:15 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Her assent to bear our Savior is of particular importance, because it is by her perfect obedience that we even have a Savior. God said that Jesus would be born of a woman - for this to fulfilled, a woman was required. KJB, is this not one of the most frightening statements you ever read? Imagine daring to say that the Lord Jesus Christ could not be without Mary.
Obviously, this makes Mary far more powerful than even God. No wonder then that RC is almost exclusively devoted to her.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 8:10:54 AM
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KingJamesBond
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Kelman,
quote:
KJB, is this not one of the most frightening statements you ever read? Imagine daring to say that the Lord Jesus Christ could not be without Mary.
Obviously, this makes Mary far more powerful than even God. No wonder then that RC is almost exclusively devoted to her.
Yes it is.
KJB
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 9:58:47 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
...did Mary say "yes"? Was that decision and action of her own free will? What if she had said "no"?
yep she did, and God knew that she would since he is all knowing, but if she had not there were thousands of other young ladies with the qualificaitons to have borne our Savior.
I just cannot buy the diefication and/or exhaultaiton of Mary just because God used her.
Did not God use Balaam's donkey in Nubbers 22?
Thanks
RC
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 12:18:16 PM
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ushalk
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i am a saint you all need to come bow down before me and pray to me. i will all power of things in heaven and in earth. i am a saint i tell you, you must pray to me. let me know when i am being prayed to as a saint.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:07:48 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Kelman,
quote:
quote:
KJB, is this not one of the most frightening statements you ever read? Imagine daring to say that the Lord Jesus Christ could not be without Mary.
Obviously, this makes Mary far more powerful than even God. No wonder then that RC is almost exclusively devoted to her.
Yes it is.
KJB
...kind of a jump to conclusions there, fellows, don't you think? How does Mary giving birth to Jesus make her superior to Jesus? Or make her a deity?
I know you want it to say that so badly you hurt, but that's like saying the stop light is red, therefore the sky is blue. We all know from the Old Testament that the Savior must be born of a woman, and not materialized out of thin air. As Luke tells the story, this event occurred with the assent and agreement of the woman (Mary) with God's plan.
You can call God a flawed architect, for designing Salvation to require the cooperation of those being saved, if you like, but it is what it is. Mary needed a Savior just like anyone else; she just so happened to agree to give birth to Him and raise Him (and watch Him be crucified, for that matter...). The only manner in which Jesus could arguably be subordinate to Mary is when she asked Him to pick up His toys, or something, just like a good, well-mannered child would do when asked to do something by a parent.
The bottom line - the position of the Catholic Church is in disagreement with your own man-made, innovative beliefs on this. So - therefore - the Catholic Church must be wrong. That's all I get out of the statements quoted above.
And that is what is actually shocking - that people may formulate their own personal renderings of Scripture by "pick-and-choose", and using the quality of deduction demonstrated above, rather than to hold the authoritative teachings and instruction understood and practiced by the earliest Christians, through to this day, using the exact same set of Scriptures.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:10:27 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
I just cannot buy the diefication ... of Mary just because God used her. ...neither can the Roman Catholic Church...
As far as honoring Mary - it is acknowledging the power of the cooperation of the soul with God's Grace to do the will of God on earth, and a hope and desire that God graces us in a similar manner, to continue to do His will on earth.
quote:
Did not God use Balaam's donkey in Nubbers 22? ...did Balaam's donkey use his rational soul to assent to God's will, and align his free donkey-will to cooperate with God's Grace?
Perhaps not...?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:13:58 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Was it because of her being graced at some point in the past with perpetual endurance for the future having been prepared by divine favor.........OR her free-will?
...yes...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:15:03 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
i am a saint you all need to come bow down before me and pray to me. i will all power of things in heaven and in earth. i am a saint i tell you, you must pray to me. let me know when i am being prayed to as a saint.
...yeah, this is constructive...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:18:44 PM
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Zhi
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Out of curiosity, where do you get the idea that Mary had a choice?
Luke 1: 26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
The angel doesn't say "Would you like to give birth to Jesus?" He says "You are GOING to give birth to Jesus." When the doctor said to me "You're going to have a baby", it wasn't "Would you like to have a baby?" it was "Guess what, you're pregnant". It didn't particularly matter whether I was happy about that or not, it was an announcement of fact. My reaction was "Terrific! I'm going to have a baby like you said." If my reaction had been "Oh no, I don't want to be pregnant!" I wouldn't have been any less pregnant just because I didn't want to be, would I?
Reminds me of the story of Jonah. God decided to use Jonah. Wasn't Jonah's choice. Jonah had a rough time of it. Fortunately Mary decided to submit to it before large aquatic mammals had to get involved.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 1:29:53 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
As far as honoring Mary - it is acknowledging the power of the cooperation of the soul with God's Grace to do the will of God on earth, and a hope and desire that God graces us in a similar manner, to continue to do His will on earth.
So Heavenly diefication and exhaultation comes from God asking something of someone here on earth and then then doing it?
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
...
(Act 9:17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Which throne is Ananias sitting on in Heaven, and do you pray to this obedient person as well as to Mary?
Thanks
RC
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 2:18:34 PM
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GHitch
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Haven't read much here but wanted to add my 2 bits worth.
Praying to dead saints (or living ones) is a complete waste of time.
Not only so but it is tantamount to idolatry.
Isaiah 8:19 quote:
should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? - NKJV
Shouldn't people ask their God for help instead? Why should they ask the dead to help the living? - GW
So shouldn't you ask for advice from your God? Why should you get advice from dead people to help those who are alive? - NIRV
The dead ones can't hear you and the living can't answer you!
Mary (or whoever) is not omnipresent, nor omniscient. So how can she or any other passed on saint possibly hear all the (vain) prayers made to her at any given moment?
Obviously she can't, they can't.
"There is only ONE mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus". Period. Every other mediator is an idol.
Bygone saints are enjoying paradise, why should they even be bothered with your prayers? They can't even hear them.
Only God hears prayer. Only omniscience and omnipresence can hear and deal with them.
If Mary was so "immaculate" and perfect, why was she in the upper room seeking the gift and then speaking in tongues with all the others? Tongues are for edification exhortation and comfort. Get it? She needed all these.
She can't hear you!
They can't hear you.
In my name shall you ask the Father.
No other name is allowed.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 2:24:57 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. ...this verse. Be it unto me - this is assent/consent, then the angel left.
NAB has verse 38 as - "Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her."
Could've been - thanks, but no thanks, or "Be it not unto me" or "May it not be done to me...", or some other rendering of "I refuse".
quote:
The angel doesn't say "Would you like to give birth to Jesus?" He says "You are GOING to give birth to Jesus." When the doctor said to me "You're going to have a baby", it wasn't "Would you like to have a baby?" it was "Guess what, you're pregnant". It didn't particularly matter whether I was happy about that or not, it was an announcement of fact. My reaction was "Terrific! I'm going to have a baby like you said." If my reaction had been "Oh no, I don't want to be pregnant!" I wouldn't have been any less pregnant just because I didn't want to be, would I? ..then what is the purpose of verse 38? Why did Luke feel the need to have Mary respond here?
I also have a problem with God making little automotons of people. If I had the ability to create something, and I programmed it to love and worship me, is that really love and worship. or is that just fulfilling programming? God created man with a rational soul and a freedom to operate it under man's own will. To suggest that Mary was a powerless pawn is to make her into a computer running or robot running a program.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2009 2:45:18 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
...this verse. Be it unto me - this is assent/consent, then the angel left.
NAB has verse 38 as - "Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her."
Could've been - thanks, but no thanks, or "Be it not unto me" or "May it not be done to me...", or some other rendering of "I refuse".
I don't see the question. The angel tells her it's going to happen. He doesn't ask her opinion on it. The fact that she gives an opinion which is positive does not indicate that she had a choice.
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..then what is the purpose of verse 38? Why did Luke feel the need to have Mary respond here?
To show that Mary was obedient, in contrast to, say, Jonah, who DID say "no", and God said "tough, meet your new fishy home until you're ready to obey." In contrast to Moses, who whined and fussed until God let him have Aaron help... but he had to go anyway. In comparison with Samuel, who said "speak Lord, your servant hears". In contrast to Gideon, who said "wet the fleece?"
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I also have a problem with God making little automotons of people. If I had the ability to create something, and I programmed it to love and worship me, is that really love and worship. or is that just fulfilling programming? God created man with a rational soul and a freedom to operate it under man's own will. To suggest that Mary was a powerless pawn is to make her into a computer running or robot running a program.
It has nothing to do with free will.
I would like to say I have free will, but I was not given a choice as to whether or not my house was going to burn down as soon as we had moved out and renovated it. My husband has free will, but he had no choice about a medical condition that has sent him to surgery 3 times and the emergency room 3 times in the past year. The fact that sometimes things happen to us, or God chooses us to do something, has nothing to do with free will. Jonah had free will, otherwise he couldn't have run, but God was firm in His choice also, and eventually Jonah's "free will" came around. My 2 year old would like to think she has a choice about getting put down for a nap in 15 minutes. She does not. But, she does have free will regarding how she wants to play (within reason) until then.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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