RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (Full Version)

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Qtman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/3/2009 6:02:53 PM)

quote:

This is a false oral tradition. I recommend this excellent article which points out how this line of innuendo can be used equally against protestantism:


THis is neither false nor oral tradition. It is in fact written history. Try doing a study of the Roman Empire, it's Emperors and specifically Constatine. You know the one the RCC designated as The Great.

You will find where the title Pontifex Maximus came from. You will also learn about the Egyptian GOddess Isis. You will also learn that COnstatine actually converted several temples dedicated to Isis to Temples of Mary. You will also see the parralell between the gods of these pagan religions and the idea of Saints held by the RCC including Patron Saints.

You see I have studied the RCC doctrines and I have also studied history. The two do not necessarily agree with each other. I hate to say it but most of the links you provide or nothing more than self serving sites and documents to back up what the RCC teaches. Which IMHO is unbiblical. There is ample evidence recorded in history that the RCC as we know it was started by Constatine. Was or is it an offshoot of the original Christian Curch. Of course it is. Is it the original Christian Church. I think not. THe original Christian Church was comprised of converted Jews. The Gentiles did not get included until the Aposlte Paul was called to carry the Gospel to them. In fact Jesus told his Disciples to preach to the Jews and not the Gentiles.



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/3/2009 10:29:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:

Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.

I personally know for sure and that the Successor of Simon Rock does have this authority, as the Word of God bears witness.

You claim personal knowledge that your "saints" are in heaven!?! WOW ... there's one for the books! So, where does the Word of God testify that the false apostle usurping Peter Pebble's office has the authority to say who is or is not in heaven?



rawr.ben -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/3/2009 11:51:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

quote:

ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:

Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.

I personally know for sure and that the Successor of Simon Rock does have this authority, as the Word of God bears witness.

You claim personal knowledge that your "saints" are in heaven!?! WOW ... there's one for the books! So, where does the Word of God testify that the false apostle usurping Peter Pebble's office has the authority to say who is or is not in heaven?


Don't you see the automatic out?

If it isn't in the Word of God, it must be from their oral tradition, which is as authoritative as the Word of God, which they know because the authority of the Word of God attests to it . . . or something like that.



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 12:25:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:

ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:

Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.

I personally know for sure and that the Successor of Simon Rock does have this authority, as the Word of God bears witness.

You claim personal knowledge that your "saints" are in heaven!?! WOW ... there's one for the books! So, where does the Word of God testify that the false apostle usurping Peter Pebble's office has the authority to say who is or is not in heaven?

Don't you see the automatic out?

If it isn't in the Word of God, it must be from their oral tradition, which is as authoritative as the Word of God, which they know because the authority of the Word of God attests to it . . . or something like that.

You're right ... and I knew that, too! I'm just so used to the "Word of God" meaning the "Word of God".[sm=hammerhead.gif]

Too bad there isn't an index for RC definitions on this site to aide these discussions with "unity".



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 2:32:43 AM)

quote:


I guess if you take a few words out of those verses like you did you can squeeze it hard enough to make it say what you think it says. However, if one reads the entire verse and those that surround it it has a completely different meaning and has absolutely nothing to do with praying to the saints or purgatory.
A particular poster has a thing for "syllogisms". Thanks to WBN the following one is a perfect example of how RC establishes its "infallible" doctrines:

1. dogs bark
2. there is bark on a tree
3. therefore, a dog is a tree.

quote:

Patricius I am going to answer this question and then maybe you will be so kind as to stop posting it in every other post you make.

To start off the question is about as ridiculous as asking me for a photograph of a car or airplane made during the same period. How in the world can someone produce a document from the Protestant Reformation that would have to have been written over 1000 years before the Protestant Reformation. So to answer your question, silly as it is, NO. Neither I nor anyone else can produce a document from the Protestant Reformation dating to 100 to 325.
Yep, and neither can RC produce one single solitary Roman Catholic doctrine from that era since, of course, it had as yet to be founded.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 2:35:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

Meh. I don't believe for a minute that Mary is THE "preeminent Christian" or that Christ gave his mother any title. I don't know why I bother with this thread. I think I won't anymore.


You don't have to agree, you said no one told you why Catholics thought this title was a good thing, I answered that.

Pax,
Mary
RCs may think it is a "good thing", however, God tells us of only one "queen of heaven" and that one is a pagan goddess. Therefore, such a title does dishonor to Mary.



patricius79 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 8:34:59 AM)

QTMAN WROTE:
quote:

Neither I nor anyone else can produce a document from the Protestant Reformation dating to 100 to 325.


In other words, there is no historical evidence that anyone believed as Calvin or Luther or Zwingli in this era, nor of any constant tradition besides the Catholic Church, right?

This gives me reason to trust the Catholic Church about the Canon and praying to the saints, since only this Communion is Apostolic:.
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

quote:

Now will you tell me do you know the difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. And don't tell me there is no difference because there is a vast difference.


I have repeatedly looked and asked for any documentation of this distinction. However “Catholic” before Constantine meant substantially the same thing as now: visible Church, apostolic succession, hierarchy, papacy, warnings for heretics and schismatics, same Sacramental beliefs, penance, Scripture inseparable from Tradition, prayer to the saints and for the dead, other Catholic markers.
http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

quote:

“This is a false oral tradition. I recommend this excellent article which points out how this line of innuendo can be used equally against Protestantism”

This is neither false nor oral tradition. It is in fact written history.


I see nothing indicating that Catholic belief changed substantially in any way after Constantine, or that the Marian doctrines came from paganism as opposed to the Word. If you have primary documentation otherwise, please post it.

quote:

You will find where the title Pontifex Maximus came from. You will also learn about the Egyptian Gdddess Isis.


I think there is nothing wrong with using terms in a new way, as we did with “Trinity”. There is nothing wrong knowing there is a Queen of Heaven. As Scripture says,

“Behold, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

The very early fathers (long before Constantine), believed in Mary as the New Eve Cf. Luke 1:35-8. They also believed that she is our Motherly advocate (cf. Lk 2:35, Rev 12:17)
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary.htm

As Scripture says,

“a sword will pierce your own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

And as Mary herself says after interceding before the first miracle:

“Do whatever He tells you.”

quote:

You will also learn that Constantine actually converted several temples dedicated to Isis to Temples of Mary.


This seems to assume there is something intrinsically wrong with naming a Christian Church after Mary, and to assume that Constantine is a Catholic doctrinal source. The Church has always accepted whatever is true in paganism, rejecting the bad.

Again, this “paganization” innuendo works equally badly against Catholicity, Judaism and Protestantism:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

quote:

You see I have studied the RCC doctrines and I have also studied history. The two do not necessarily agree with each other.


Please provide some primary evidence of disagreement. Here is more evidence that the Church has always been what protestants call “Roman Catholic” in regard to prayer to the saints:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/saints.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

quote:

I hate to say it but most of the links you provide or nothing more than self serving sites and documents to back up what the RCC teaches.


Calling them “self-serving” is not really an argument. If there is a problem with their patristic documentation, what is it?

The reason I am a Christian involves ancient documentation, such as the Gospels and Pauline Epistles, and their coherence with the rest of Christian history.

quote:

Which IMHO is unbiblical. There is ample evidence recorded in history that the RCC as we know it was started by Constantine. Was or is it an offshoot of the original Christian Curch. Of course it is. Is it the original Christian Church. I think not.


I don’t know what IMHO means. Please provide primary documents of a non-Catholic “original Church”, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

And as Scripture says of the Communion of Saints:

“Neither death nor life will separate us from the love of Christ”

and again:

“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners. You are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God.” (Eph 2:19)



Soxfan -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 8:41:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

Peter Pebble


That's priceless!! [:D] Love it!



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 11:25:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.

So your Scriptural explanation as to why you believe you have "rightfully" applied the title of a pagan diety to Mary is -- "because we can"?

Did you read the links?

No. I had just taken a shower and didn't want to wade through all that muck of RC propaganda. Besides, you already gave your answer -- you call her "queen of heaven" because you can.

quote:

quote:

How can you even enterain the idea that any reasonable person would accept that such illogical, unbiblical assumptions line up with Scripture?

We don't have to agree thats fine. I see it as being in line with scripture.

All I'm asking is ... how can you see it that way? You've shown through Scripture that God can bestow the same title on more than one person, in different respects -- so , based on that reasoning you should be able to show through Scripture that God has bestowed the title "queen of heaven" on both the pagan diety and Mary, in different respects. If you cannot, then the logic used to form your conclusion does NOT align with Scripture.

In addition, you proceeded to offer a pseudosyllogism that is based on unbiblical assumptions -- unless you can show the Scriptures that say there are "queens" in heaven; Mary is "the preeminent Christian"; and, that Christ bestowed the title upon her (and the pagan diety), then then your belief is NOT in line with Scripture.

quote:

I was not trying to post something everyone would agree with, rather only answer the question as to why Catholics see nothing wrong in the use of the title.

I understand that, but what I am pointing out is that the answer you've given in defense of your faith is that Catholics call Mary "queen of heaven" illogically, unbiblically and simply because they assume they can.



SamsonUSA -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 3:11:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: patricius79

Soxfan wrote:
quote:

“Peter Pebble”That's priceless!! Love it!


Is is interesting that the idea of “Simon Pebble” is unsupported by any ancient Koine Greek documents, either ecclesial or secular. (The “os” is “Petros” is simply the masculinized version of the feminine noun, “Petra.” Both "Cephas" (Jn 1:42) and Petros mean "Rock", so that his name is literally Simon Rock. For further proof:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
_____________________________________________________________
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (St. Cyprian. Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

Pat,

Your interpretation, (excuse me, your religion does not permit you to interpret) correction, the RCC's interpretation of Petro has been refuted ad nauseam in this thread many times.

Continuing to post links from the sect that you belong to under the guise
of "proof" is a false pretense. They carry no more exegetical truth and insight into the word of God than links posted by other sects that also peddle a false gospel.



Catholicandloveit -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/4/2009 3:53:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

I understand that, but what I am pointing out is that the answer you've given in defense of your faith is that Catholics call Mary "queen of heaven" illogically, unbiblically and simply because they assume they can.


What you are pointing out is the way you see my answer, which normally I would attempt to explain in a different way to try and help us come to and understanding of each others views, however what you have also admitted is that you did not read all of my answer, so really it is of no surprise that you came to a different conclusion about the use of the title then the one I was trying to make, it is not simply because we can, and I see no reason to try and explain again if you are not interested in a discussion only a right fight.

Pax,

Mary



KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 7:01:50 AM)

WildByNature,

quote:

All I'm asking is ... how can you see it that way? You've shown through Scripture that God can bestow the same title on more than one person, in different respects -- so , based on that reasoning you should be able to show through Scripture that God has bestowed the title "queen of heaven" on both the pagan diety and Mary, in different respects. If you cannot, then the logic used to form your conclusion does NOT align with Scripture.

In addition, you proceeded to offer a pseudosyllogism that is based on unbiblical assumptions -- unless you can show the Scriptures that say there are "queens" in heaven; Mary is "the preeminent Christian"; and, that Christ bestowed the title upon her (and the pagan diety), then then your belief is NOT in line with Scripture.


Excellent points.

Would Catholicandloveit apply the title 'Satan' to their popes?

Jesus turned and said to Peter,

"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

There would be more of a valid reason to call popes 'Satan' and 'stumbling blocks' than there would be to call Mary the queen of heaven if we use a Catholicandloveit theory.

Would they pray to St. Peter using the title 'Satan'?

KJB



KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 7:38:43 AM)

Qtman,

quote:

You will find where the title Pontifex Maximus came from. You will also learn about the Egyptian GOddess Isis. You will also learn that COnstatine actually converted several temples dedicated to Isis to Temples of Mary. You will also see the parralell between the gods of these pagan religions and the idea of Saints held by the RCC including Patron Saints.


Wow.....I never knew that.

Notice this prayer from a Pro-Roman Catholic website;

Prayer to Mary, Queen of Heaven

"Queen of heaven, rejoice. Alleluia. The Son whom you were privileged to bear, Alleluia, has risen as he said, Alleluia. Pray to God for us, Alleluia. Rejoice and be glad, Virgin Mary, Alleluia. For the Lord has truly risen, Alleluia.

O God, it was by the Resurrection of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, that you brought joy to the world. Grant that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, his Mother, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen."

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=314

Turning to Mary in prayer for intercession for eternal life through Jesus Christ?

It makes it seem as they have no faith in just turning to Jesus Christ.

KJB



Catholicandloveit -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 8:23:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond


It makes it seem as they have no faith in just turning to Jesus Christ.



Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? You make it seams as if we are all demanded by God to travel this Christian life alone, worshiping Him as an individual, and praying by ourselves and only for ourselves.

Mary



patricius79 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 10:23:41 AM)

MARY WROTE:
quote:

The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.


Right. We do so because this is the Word of God. As Scripture says,

“Say to the King, and to the Queen Mother…. ‘where is the flock that was entrusted to you’?”

Here is a very good lay site which shows, Biblically, how Mary is the New Eve--the Mother of the Living--as the Church fathers like Irenaeus also teach us:
http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/eve.htm

WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
quote:

So your Scriptural explanation as to why you believe you have "rightfully" applied the title of a pagan diety to Mary is -- "because we can"?


The reason why we accept this title is the same as why we accept the closing of the N.T. Canon: because Christ told us to in two ways through the authority of the historic Church which is:

“the pillar and ground of the Truth” http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm

“Christ’s Body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way.” http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

MARY WROTE:
quote:

The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Dn 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16).


That is a good sentence. The Church has never rejected anything good or salvage-able in pagan or secular sources, such as ourselves [;)]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

WILDBYNATUREWROTE:
quote:

GOD bestowed the title, in different senses, to both Neb and Jesus -- as the Scriptures clearly show


This is correct, and the reason we know that the Book of Daniel is Biblical, is due to the Jewish oral authority (cf. Mt 23:1-3). Here is an article with a section on the question of “Borrowing from Paganism?”: http://www.catholic.com/library/Can_Dogma_Develop.asp

quote:

however, the Scriptures do NOT show that God bestowed the title "queen of heaven" to either the pagan diety or to Mary.


The idea that Mary is Queen of Heaven is truly implicit in Scripture, in the manner which the Catholic Church’s doctrine of “the Trinity” is (Cf. Mt 28:19). As the prophet says,

“Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the King’s Mother, who sat at his right.” (1 Kings 2:19)

By the way: the practice of giving chapter and verse is not not Scriptural, though it is no prohibited by Scripture.

quote:

Where does Scripture say there are "queens" in heaven?


Rev 12:1 says that there is a Queen in Heaven. Of the rest of us: we are royalty also, since we are children of this Queen:

“…a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God,” (1 Pt 2:9).Since we are one nation of the Holy Spirit, we can intercede for one another.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

quote:

Where does Scripture say Mary is "the preeminent Christian"?


I will be happy to answer that if you will first show where the Scriptures say it is bad to communicate with those we have “come to”(Heb 12:22), namely:

“the spirits of the just made perfect” (Heb 12:23):

“Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11)....Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus….One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.”
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.aspq

quote:

How can you even entertain the idea that any reasonable person would accept that such illogical, unbiblical assumptions line up with Scripture?


I think that Mary (C&LoveIt) is simply expecting that you will be coherent. You accept other Catholic teachings implicit in Scripture—such as the N.T. Canon, and the idea of “the Trinity”--which are confirmed by the historic Bride of Christ.

For this reason, I hope you will accept the equally clear teaching that Mary is the Queen Mother of the Davidic Kingdom (cf. Luke 1:32), which is Heaven.

WILDBYNATURE CONTINUES:
quote:

So, where does the Word of God testify that the false apostle usurping Peter Pebble's office has the authority to say who is or is not in heaven?


There are many challenges here. For what the Biblical Church has always believed about Apostolic Succession, Church infallibility, Simon Rock and the Papacy:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm

quote:

Don't you see the automatic out? If it isn't in the Word of God, it must be from their oral tradition


The Word of God has always been one Person, expressed orally and in writing. The idea that Writ can be separated from Word of mouth is not supported by the Scriptures or history.

As Scripture says,

“Do you understand what you are reading?” He answered: “How can I unless someone instructs me?” (Acts 8:31).

The “automatic out” works very easily through the doctrine of Private Judgment/Sola Scriptura, which teaches a person to abstract the Scriptures from their historical context according to one’s own opinion.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea2.asp

quote:

which is as authoritative as the Word of God


The prophecy from the O.T. was of a continuous oral Word (Is 59:21) The N.T. teaches that the oral Gospel is the Word of God. Cf. 1 Thes 1:8, 2:13. This oral Gospel is inseparable from the Scriptures (cf. Acts 17:11)
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

quote:

In addition, you proceeded to offer a pseudosyllogism that is based on unbiblical assumptions

“Since Mary is Jesus’ mother[Jn 2:1], it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.” http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp



KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 7:31:51 PM)

Catholicandloveit,

quote:

Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? You make it seams as if we are all demanded by God to travel this Christian life alone, worshiping Him as an individual, and praying by ourselves and only for ourselves.


Oh......maybe I should correct the prayer? LOL

"Grant that through the intercession of KJB, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen."

KJB



rawr.ben -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 10:36:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

Catholicandloveit,

quote:

Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? You make it seams as if we are all demanded by God to travel this Christian life alone, worshiping Him as an individual, and praying by ourselves and only for ourselves.


Oh......maybe I should correct the prayer? LOL

"Grant that through the intercession of KJB, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen."

KJB


For thine is the kingdom and the power . . .



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 11:22:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
It makes it seem as they have no faith in just turning to Jesus Christ.

Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am?

Can you not see that we are to pray FOR each other -- not TO each other? ... that in order for two or more to be "gathered", they must both be in the same location -- earth?

Matt 18:19
Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 11:37:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:

That would be idolatry just like the RCC teaches.

...uhhh...the RC does not teach participation in idolatry...falsehood #1.

Fact #1:
In the Twenty-fifth Session of the Council of Trent, held on the third and fourth of December, 1563, the delegates of the Council decreed certain matters relating to The Invocation, Veneration, and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images. This is what the delegates enjoined, and this is what is still binding on all RCs throughout the world:
The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church,…they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints (i.e., praying to dead Christians); the honor to relics; and the legitimate (i.e., RC established) use of images…but that they think impiously who deny that the saints…are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or that the invocation of them…is idolatry; or that it is repugnant to the Word of God, and is opposed to the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally or mentally, those who reign in heaven.

In case you missed it, this says that the use of graven images is legitimized by the CC in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that you shall not make any graven image (Ex 20:4). In addition, this says the CC wants their bishops and anyone in charge of teaching "the faithful" to teach the conjuring up of spirits by incantation (invocation), and the worship (veneration) of dead saints and of CC established use of graven images (i.e., relics) -- and anybody who disagrees with the CC on this teaching or call it "idolatry" shall be declared as having no reverence for God -- as if the CC is God. Apparently, the CC knew that these teachings were already considered "idolatry" for them to have included a 'name-calling' defense of those who would disagree with the Council's "agreeing" to this teaching.

This would seem to be enough to prove forever that the CC not only practices idolatry but teaches its constituents to do so. But this is not all.

Fact #2:
The “holy Synod” continued:
The holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ…are to be venerated (i.e., worshipped and adored) by the faithful;

In case you missed it, this calls for the teaching of the worship of the "bodies" of dead people = idolatry.

Fact #3:
The Synod continued by saying:
The images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honor and veneration (worship and adoration) are to be given them.

The Synod went on to say that these images are not to be worshipped because divinity or virtue resides in them or because any trust is to be placed in them ...
“But because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent.”

A "prototype" is the original. Apparently these images of Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the "saints" are considered to be genotypes, or copies of the originals. Surely this is fraudulence. No one since Biblical times has ever seen the Virgin Mary let alone Christ, and absolutely no physical details concerning their appearance is recorded anywhere including in the Bible. The only passage which comes close to describing Christ is Isaiah 53, which does not present Him in a flattering fashion at all. Certainly not with brown hair and blue eyes. There is no record that the church had any pictures of Christ during the first 4 centuries, let alone images of Him. The so-called pictures and images of Christ, Mary, and the "saints" are purely the product of someone’s imagination. Not one of them is a true replica. Worshipping a man-made image = idolatry.

Fact #4:
The Bible is extremely clear: It says on the one hand that God is a Spirit, and that they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24); and it also says that because we are children of God, we shouldn't think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. (Acts 17:29)

The Council of Trent says:
Great profit is derived from all sacred images, by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves (we bow down to); we adore Christ, and we venerate (worship) the saints, whose similitude they bear.

In case you missed it, God has commanded that we are not to "bow down" to any graven image (Lev 26:1). Christ is "adored" while the images of the saints are "worshipped". To make such statements is to fly in the face of God’s Holy Scriptures. It is to teach and require "the faithful" to practice idolatry -- contrary to what God enjoins in His Holy Scriptures.

Fact #5:
Even if it were true that RCs prayed only to the spirit represented by the image, it would still be sin because God has forbidden the use of images IN ANY MANNER; and there is only one Person to be worshipped and bowed down to, who is God Himself through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Fact #6:
If the RC wants to claim that "venerate" does not mean "worship", please just refer to any Thesaurus which will verify that "venerate" and "worship" are synonymous.



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 11:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature
This and many other verses in the Bible make it clear that ALL believers are saints. There is not one verse in scripture that shows saints were dead people or had to meet certain requirements other than having faith.

What Catholics distinguish, however, are signs of the efficacy of the prayers of some faithful, that appear to be in excess of other people. And Catholics are pretty sure that the one's who exhibit efficacy with their prayers to God for Christian causes ARE saints, noting that there do indeed appear to be saints walking among us.

Such a "distinction' is not found in the Scripures. The Scriptures say we will "distinguish" a believer by their fruits -- not by the efficacy of their prayers. Where is this test for efficacy of prayer found in the Scriptures? Where does Scripture say a man must test our prayers in order to be considered a believer? -- since Scripture says all believers are saints.

quote:

Surely one can recognize that in any given congregation in any collectin of any kind or flavor of Christian one cares to specify - everyone is there because they have faith, while noting that some people's faith appears to be stronger, more fully developed, or just down-right more effective than the faith of other folks.

Surely you believe Jesus when He said that even faith the size of a mustard seed has the efficacy to move a mountain. (Matt 17:20)

quote:

Surely you do not look across the landscape of Christianity and lump the filed missionary bringing Christianity to the remote people of the world with Benny Hinn...both of these folks have faith, they just have different degrees of it and choose to express it in unequivalent ways.

Surely you don't think Benny Hinn is a Christian. Surely you do not think that just because one is called into missionary work in a remote part of the world that their faith has any more efficacy than one who is called into missionary work in their own neighborhood.

quote:

quote:

Because you have to contact them in the grave in order to do so

That isn't exactly how it works. The Saints, in heaven, want for nothing. But - they continue to pray for the causes of those of us here that they have left for an eternal presence with God.

Prove through Scripture that the "saints" are in heaven. Patricius79 claims to have "personal knowledge" that they are there -- do you make the same claim?

quote:

The appeal to a Saint for their help is joining our prayers to theirs for common causes.

Surely you believe Jesus when He said if two agree on earth it shall be done for them. (Matt 18:19)

quote:

This is where the idea of "patrons" comes from (the patron Saint of finding lost keys...) - particular Saints prayers were (are) particularly effective for particular causes.

So, you admit the idea of "patron saints" comes from a lack of faith in what Christ said. Apparently, I cannot pray directly to God or with another Christian "on earth" to find my lost keys -- I need to contact a dead person to champion my cause because their faith is more effective than mine? That's not only unbiblical, it's completely abdsurd. There is only ONE faith (Eph 4:5) and it comes from God, not man. Anyone who has the faith of Christ, no matter the size, has the same efficacy in their prayers. You are claiming the faith of Christ waivers in it's efficacy.

quote:

St. Thomas Aquinas said that God's pure brilliant white light passes through the prism of his creation and scatters that light into the rainbow of colors composing it. Beautiful imagery to describe what a practice of reflecting on the Saints does for us - it shows us the spectrum of God's light as reflected in the examples of these people who walked among us, and reminds us that it is all about yielding to God's will for us over our own agendas and desires.

You are not "reflecting" upon them, you are "genuflecting" them. Whoever interpreted that "his creation" is referring to dead Christians is completely off-base. That image of the illumination of the Holy Spirit pertains to anyone who has the Spirit of God living inside them -- not just your "saints". All believers have a light to "shine". If the typical RC is not "shining", then they need to examine their faith. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is not limited to those Christians who died before us because the Holy Spirit is living inside of believers today -- here and now -- on earth.

quote:

Is the claim here that we should ignore the example of solid Christians who have walked before us?

No. The claim here is that we should not worship the Christians who have walked before us.



WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/5/2009 11:47:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:

Sorry, but this does not contradict the Word. There is no implication that what was heard was not written down in the gospels and epistles so it could be passed on to others -- thus we have the Word of God contained in the Scriptures -- profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16).

I already asked this question once, but is the witness and deposit of faith for Bartholomew, Andrew and Stephen any less valid than that of Matthew, Mark and Luke?

As BO says .... answering that question is above my pay grade. [8D]
That would have to be answered by the Holy Spirit -- who in inspiring the biblical canon -- chose not to have them included in His Holy Scriptures.

quote:

They all saw Jesus, yes?

Many people saw Jesus -- but not all who saw and believed were inspired to write about what they saw. The Body has many parts.

quote:

Is the deposit of faith written on the hearts of Andrew and Stephen by Jesus less valid, because we don't have a written Gospel attributed to these guys?

Again, the Scriptures are inspired by God. If God had wanted to inspire these men to write and for their writings to be included in His Holy Scriptures, then I'm sure they would be there. They are not. Why do you worry about what you believe is missing from the Scriptures? Why can't you just trust that God has provided what we need to know in His Holy Scriptures as they testify? Paul taught we are not to go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6)

quote:

Was Jesus a poor communicator, or did He choose His Apostles poorly? Choose one...

I choose to believe that God knew what He was doing when He inspired His Holy Scriptures. He would not have withheld any such as instruction in righteousness in a book which is declared to be all we need for our salvation to be complete. (2Tim 3:15)

Even Peter admits the Scriptures are more reliable than that which he had seen with his eyes and heard with his ears because it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:16-21). It would seem obvious that if the Scriptures are more reliable than what Peter himself had seen and heard, it is also more reliable than any oral tradition which contradicts it.

It is true that Christ did many things and that many of those things were not written down, because according to John, if every one of them were written down, ...even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written (John 21:25).

John 20:30-31, Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

What has been recorded in the Scriptures is enough for us to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing we will receive the promised salvation. There is no need to look elsewhere and, in fact, it is dangerous.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 3:36:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

Catholicandloveit,

quote:

Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? You make it seams as if we are all demanded by God to travel this Christian life alone, worshiping Him as an individual, and praying by ourselves and only for ourselves.


Oh......maybe I should correct the prayer? LOL

"Grant that through the intercession of KJB, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen."

KJB
Are you surprised by the RC claim that we "go it alone" because we know praying to Mary and the saints is forbidden by God? Somehow, they think if you have the Lord Jesus Christ, a church in which you worship with other Christians, you're "alone"....go figure.

Only through the deliberate misapplication of Scripture(James 5:15) and outright disobedience to it does this terrible practice continue. God tells us to pray FOR one another here on this earth - this is clear from Scripture.

It is pure silliness and, in fact, disingenuous to compare the biblical mandate to pray FOR one another to that of the biblically rejected practice of praying TO a spiritual being other than God.

There is not one single solitary place in the Bible where anyone other than God is prayed to - except for the heathen who prayed to the pagan gods. To not follow in their footsteps doesn't make us "alone"....just makes us obedient to the Word of God.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 3:39:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:

That would be idolatry just like the RCC teaches.

...uhhh...the RC does not teach participation in idolatry...falsehood #1.

Fact #1:
In the Twenty-fifth Session of the Council of Trent, held on the third and fourth of December, 1563, the delegates of the Council decreed certain matters relating to The Invocation, Veneration, and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images. This is what the delegates enjoined, and this is what is still binding on all RCs throughout the world:
The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church,…they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints (i.e., praying to dead Christians); the honor to relics; and the legitimate (i.e., RC established) use of images…but that they think impiously who deny that the saints…are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or that the invocation of them…is idolatry; or that it is repugnant to the Word of God, and is opposed to the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally or mentally, those who reign in heaven.

In case you missed it, this says that the use of graven images is legitimized by the CC in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that you shall not make any graven image (Ex 20:4). In addition, this says the CC wants their bishops and anyone in charge of teaching "the faithful" to teach the conjuring up of spirits by incantation (invocation), and the worship (veneration) of dead saints and of CC established use of graven images (i.e., relics) -- and anybody who disagrees with the CC on this teaching or call it "idolatry" shall be declared as having no reverence for God -- as if the CC is God. Apparently, the CC knew that these teachings were already considered "idolatry" for them to have included a 'name-calling' defense of those who would disagree with the Council's "agreeing" to this teaching.

This would seem to be enough to prove forever that the CC not only practices idolatry but teaches its constituents to do so. But this is not all.
RC clearly demands "verneration" of images but insist its images are not idols....other's are idols, but not theirs.

They mock the "name it and claim it" crowd while they change the name of the piece of wood or plaster from idol to "image"....and that makes it "okay".....

....a rose by any other name.



KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:39:31 AM)

rawr.ben,

quote:

For thine is the kingdom and the power . . .


LOL....everybody has stopped calling me "queen of the universe" ever since I got rid of my ruby red slippers.

[8D]

Look at this portion of a prayer to Mary found on a Pro-Roman Catholic website;

I greet thee, Mary,
Virgin of virgins.

I greet thee, Mary,
Queen of martyrs,
whose soul was pierced by the sword of sorrows.

I greet thee, Mary,
Lady and Mistress,
to whom all power has been given
in Heaven and on earth.

I greet thee, Mary,
Queen of my heart, my sweetness,
my life and all my hope.

I greet thee, Mary,
Mother most amiable.

I greet thee, Mary,
Mother most admirable.

I greet thee, Mary,
Mother of beautiful love.

I greet thee, Mary,
Conceived without sin.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1094

All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Mary?

[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

Some of the prayers that can be found are too bizarre.

Mary oh mighty one indeed! [:'(]

KJB



rawr.ben -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:47:29 AM)

Yeah, but is she faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive?



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