RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary?

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ManimalX -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:48:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond Look at this portion of a prayer to Mary found on a Pro-Roman Catholic website; I greet thee, Mary, Virgin of virgins. I greet thee, Mary, Queen of martyrs, whose soul was pierced by the sword of sorrows. I greet thee, Mary, Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and on earth. I greet thee, Mary, Queen of my heart, my sweetness, my life and all my hope. I greet thee, Mary, Mother most amiable. I greet thee, Mary, Mother most admirable. I greet thee, Mary, Mother of beautiful love. I greet thee, Mary, Conceived without sin. http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1094 All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Mary? [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif] Some of the prayers that can be found are too bizarre. Mary oh mighty one indeed! [:'(] KJB I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. [:'(] Good find, KJB, and good illumination of the humorous (but disturbing) fallacy of praying TO old dead sinners.

KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:50:34 AM)
kelman, quote: There is not one single solitary place in the Bible where anyone other than God is prayed to - except for the heathen who prayed to the pagan gods. To not follow in their footsteps doesn't make us "alone"....just makes us obedient to the Word of God. Oh come on kelman.....be a sport! Why would you not wish to invoke and harness the mighty power of Mary as you call on her day and night to carry out your plans? Say this simple prayer and call on her mighty name! I greet thee, Mary, Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and on earth. I greet thee, Mary, Queen of my heart, my sweetness, my life and all my hope. All power in heaven and on earth has been given to her and you need to start bowing down and giving her "affectuate salutations". http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1094 Didnt you know that all power has been given to her? I think she has enough shares to control General Electric. Imagine having all the power in heaven and on earth. That is a lot of power! I guess she is in charge and that is why they turn to her. KJB

rawr.ben -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:57:50 AM)
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. So, the question remains . . . does Mary count as "one of us" or is she in the "God" category?

KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 6:58:13 AM)
ManimalX, quote: I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Cant blame you for that! quote: Good find, KJB, and good illumination of the humorous (but disturbing) fallacy of praying TO old dead sinners. My gosh.......if a person was to wade through the gigantic garden of Roman Catholic prayers to Mary they would see exactly why they pray to her. She is an idol that surpasses all other idols. To them......she is literally the sinless and ever virgin queen of the universe with the majesty, and the glory, and power, forever and ever.... This honor and glory that they attribute to her is honor and glory that is stolen from God and one day every knee will bow.........and mine will not be bowing down to Mary. KJB

KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 7:13:03 AM)
rawr.ben, quote: Yeah, but is she faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive? Oh....far faster and much more powerful! We Fly to Thy Patronage In every engagement with the infernal powers, we shall always certainly conquer by having recourse to the Mother of God, Who is also our Mother, saying and repeating again and again: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God: we fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God." Oh how many victories have not the faithful gained over hell, by having recourse to Mary with this short but most powerful prayer! Thus is was that the great servant of god, Sister Mary Crucified, of the Order of St. Benedict, always overcame the devils. St. Alphonsus Liguori in Hail Holy Queen! http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=110 Look at this one; Prayer to Mary, Queen Found here; http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/PopesPrayers.htm KJB

Catholicandloveit -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 9:39:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond Oh......maybe I should correct the prayer? LOL "Grant that through the intercession of KJB, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen." KJB Grant through the intercession of "who ever" - who has the power, the recipient of the prayers of the intercessor. If for example I pray for my friends dad and the prayer is answered is it because of my prayer, my friends request, or God - clearly God its the same with the saints. quote: For thine is the kingdom and the power . . . Right Ben! Amen Amen Amen! quote: ORIGINAL: WildByNature quote: ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond It makes it seem as they have no faith in just turning to Jesus Christ. Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? Can you not see that we are to pray FOR each other -- not TO each other? ... that in order for two or more to be "gathered", they must both be in the same location -- earth? Matt 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth* concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.* WBN - I don't think you clearly understand the process of the prayers to the saints the glory the honor the answer is for and by Gods will 100% of the time no faithful Catholic views the saints and their intercession as anything less or more. Where two or three are gathered, KJB claims all we need is to turn to Jesus and anything else shows not even a lack of faith but no faith, we are clearly told to worship together to pray for each other, we are not called to be Christians alone. Mary Thats all for today really don't have the stomach for it - no biggy it will all be worth it around July 5th [:D]

Qtman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 9:52:45 AM)
Gentlemen please. I am not Catholic nor do I hold to their views on Mary. I do not agree with the perpetual virginity of Mary. I do not believe she is the Queen of Heaven. I do not believe she is the mother of God. I do not believe in praying to her. In fact I think I disagree just as strongly as some of you on some of the Catholic teachings. What I do believe is that God chose Mary to give birth to Jesus. He used Mary as the vessel by which His son would enter the world as man. I believe she does hold a special place in the history of Christianity. As Elizabeth said "She is Blessed among women. I believe she deserves not our worship or prayers but our respect. And frankly some of these comments about Mary, i.e. the faster than a speeding bullet more powerful than a locomotive just reeks with disrespect. All bible believing Christians should be above those kind of remarks.

Doghouse -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 1:26:06 PM)
quote: So, the question remains . . . does Mary count as "one of us" or is she in the "God" category? Mary is "one of us" most decidedly and clearly. She is the example of what happens to "one of us" when we align our will with God's, and subordinate our will to His in obedience. By acknowledging what happened to her, we are acknowledging the efficacy of God's grace and its power upon the fully human soul. We are acknowledging the reality of sanctification. We are acknowledging the results of operating one's intellect and will in subordination to God's desire, design and plan. We are acknowledging the use of God-given gifts to realize God's plan and use for those gifts. I don't see how any of that gives glory to Mary. All it does is point the glory to God. A bunch of hecklers standing on the sidelines trying to call this "something else" does not make it "something else". It is what it is - the Catholics have been laboring to spell that out for everyone here. This LINK is from an article posted on Columbia Universitiy's website - The Augustine Club. It discusses - with some authority, I believe - the belief and practice of Catholics in regards to the respect and veneration we should give the saints, while (once again) clearly reiterating that Catholics DO NOT worship the saints, only the Trinity. Some non-Catholic coming in here with a bucket of sour grapes and characterizing this honor as "worship" does not make what is being done "worship", if the people here who do indeed honor the saints as described are clear to distinguish this honor and respect from the activity that they reserve for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that they do indeed characterize as "worship". By the standard some apply here - many are guilty of worshipping the New York Yankees, Barach Obama, or Garth Brooks. Or - maybe when some here do "worship", they are only giving that activity such a small amount of actual devotion and effort, that "great respect" actually looks like "worship" to them, because they have never actually experienced real "worship" to the extent that some have.

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 1:30:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit quote: ORIGINAL: WildByNature quote: ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit Why then are we told to pray for each other, or where two or more are gathered in my name there I am? Can you not see that we are to pray FOR each other -- not TO each other? ... that in order for two or more to be "gathered", they must both be in the same location -- earth? Matt 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth* concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.* WBN - I don't think you clearly understand the process of the prayers to the saints the glory the honor the answer is for and by Gods will 100% of the time no faithful Catholic views the saints and their intercession as anything less or more. What I don't clearly understand is what you wrote here. Shouldn't there be a period (.) in there somewhere? [8D] What I do understand is that the Scriptures say we are to pray directly to God and God only, in the name of Jesus Christ, who is our intercessor with the Father. We are NOT to pray to dead guys -- they are not the one who makes intercession for us. "No faithful Catholic views the saints and their intercession as anything less or more" than what? "Gory" and "honor"? I know you can't mean God's will because it is NOT God's will that you invoke the spirit of dead guys to make intercession for you. quote: Where two or three are gathered, KJB claims all we need is to turn to Jesus and anything else shows not even a lack of faith but no faith, we are clearly told to worship together to pray for each other, we are not called to be Christians alone. KJB is 100% correct. Yes we are told to pray FOR each other, but we are not told to pray TO each other or TO dead people so they can pray FOR us. quote: Thats all for today really don't have the stomach for it - no biggy it will all be worth it around July 5th So you DID skip "a period"? I knew it. LOL Congratulations, Mary!!!

Catholicandloveit -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 2:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WildByNature What I don't clearly understand is what you wrote here. Shouldn't there be a period (.) in there somewhere? [8D] Lately I have posted many a run-on sentence, I do apologize. I need coffee! [X(] quote: "No faithful Catholic views the saints and their intercession as anything less or more" than what? "Gory" and "honor"? I know you can't mean God's will because it is NOT God's will that you invoke the spirit of dead guys to make intercession for you. I did mean Gods will, power, glory, honor - gee your acting like that post was hard to understand [;)] quote: Yes we are told to pray FOR each other, but we are not told to pray TO each other or TO dead people so they can pray FOR us. Then basically we only disagree on who one can ask to pray for them, and how they should ask. [:D] quote: LOL Congratulations, Mary!!! Thank You.

Doghouse -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 2:17:24 PM)
quote: Why can't you just trust that God has provided what we need to know in His Holy Scriptures as they testify? Paul taught we are not to go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6) From St. Paul: quote: I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe's people, that there are rivalries among you. I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?...For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside." When I see "written" in regard to Paul, I think "Old Testament", as Matt, Mark, Luke and John had not even been penned yet, and to believe that Paul is saying what you claim would mean that Matt, Mark, Luke and John were "adding to", which - they are obviously were not. Paul is comfortable with "proclaim" as it relates to the "present tense" spread of the Gospel message as revealed by God, and I accept that we use an understanding of tradition passed to us to aid our interpretation and to lend context to what has been passed to us as writings. I acknowledge that you disagree with this. I don't believe that the lack of a written Gospel invalidates the witness of Andrew to the Gospel of Jesus. It simply means that the witness is preserved for us in tradition, not Scripture. Jesus did not err when selecting Andrew, and Andrew did not err in not writing anything down, but rather spending his time in Cappadocia, Galatia, and Bithynia, then in the Scythian deserts, and afterwards in Byzantium itself, where he appointed St. Stachys as its first bishop, and finally in Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly, and Achaia. It is generally agreed that he was crucified by order of the Roman Governor, Aegeas or Aegeates, at Patrae in Achaia, and that he was bound, not nailed, to the cross, in order to prolong his sufferings. We know (as best we can) this type of thing from the writings of Origen, Gregory, Jerome and others, who breathe life into the story of Andrew as a real person, and not just some folk character, or mythological hero. His witness to Jesus is as valid and as personal as any other Apostle, and he left behind followers and people that he had instructed and engaged in spreading the Gospel message of Jesus. quote: which is declared to be all we need for our salvation to be complete. (2Tim 3:15) Scriptures are indeed capable of giving one wisdom for salvation, if one can render and discern them correctly. That's what we are all arguing about here. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation" - Peter said this, as well. "for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." I believe Peter is referring to a ministry (any ministry - Protestant or Catholic) and the authority of Church here (any Church, Protestant or Catholic - over the individual believer), and again is clear to distinguish the authority of "human beings moved by the holy Spirit" from "personal interpretation". Again - a difference I see between what you believe and what I believe.

patricius79 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 3:38:27 PM)
MANIMAL WROTE: quote: �. praying TO old dead sinners. As Scripture says, "�And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living . . .�" (Mark 12:26-27) WILD BYNATURE WROTE: quote: We are NOT to pray to dead guys -- they are not the one who makes intercession for us. "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). SOMEBODY WROTE: quote: which is declared to be all we need for our salvation to be complete. (2Tim 3:15) Where does this passage say that the Scriptures are �all we need for our salvation to be complete�? quote: Why can't you just trust that God has provided what we need to know in His Holy Scriptures as they testify? Paul taught we are not to go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6) Actually, the phrase here��to go��is not in 1 Cor 4:6. (The same letter commends the �traditions� of the Corinthians (11:2), recalling 2 Thes 2:15, where Paul binds the Thesallonians to the unwritten traditions.) SOMEBODY WROTE: quote: I greet thee, Mary, Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and on earth. I think this is being misinterpreted. As Scripture says, �For this reason I kneel before the father, [praying]�so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.� So Mary is filled with Christ�s authority, by Christ�s choice. She does not compete with it. As the prophet says, �Ask it, my mother,� the King said to her, �for I will not refuse you.�(1 Kings 2:20).

SamsonUSA -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/6/2009 3:49:30 PM)
Imagine the shock that those who practice praying to their "saints" will feel if after their own deaths they found out that any of the "saints" that they had been praying to are in hell.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 3:47:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond kelman, quote: There is not one single solitary place in the Bible where anyone other than God is prayed to - except for the heathen who prayed to the pagan gods. To not follow in their footsteps doesn't make us "alone"....just makes us obedient to the Word of God. Oh come on kelman.....be a sport! Guess you're right, KJB. I really need to lighten up so that I too can look at God's Word as simply a playbook to which I can add my own "plays" when I don't agree with the Book's direction. Obviously, there exists those who can do it better than God, perhaps I too should become "one of them"? As the entire Bible attests, God commands that He alone is worthy of prayer, but surely I too can become confident that I know better than God and my will is superior to that of His? Nah, can't do it...for I fear I wouldn't be able to say..."it is well with my soul." Isa 48:11-12 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 3:48:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman Gentlemen please. I am not Catholic nor do I hold to their views on Mary. I do not agree with the perpetual virginity of Mary. I do not believe she is the Queen of Heaven. I do not believe she is the mother of God. I do not believe in praying to her. In fact I think I disagree just as strongly as some of you on some of the Catholic teachings. What I do believe is that God chose Mary to give birth to Jesus. He used Mary as the vessel by which His son would enter the world as man. I believe she does hold a special place in the history of Christianity. As Elizabeth said "She is Blessed among women. I believe she deserves not our worship or prayers but our respect. And frankly some of these comments about Mary, i.e. the faster than a speeding bullet more powerful than a locomotive just reeks with disrespect. All bible believing Christians should be above those kind of remarks. The "locomotive" remarks do not rise anywhere near to the level of dishonor and disrespect done to Mary than what RC is doing to her memory. Addressing Mary by the title given to a pagan goddess...is this anything a Christian should be doing? Ascribing to Mary all the unique qualities of the Lord Jesus Christ...is this anything a Christian should be doing? The Lord alone is Redeemer, Mediator and sinless yet these accomplishments are now "shared" with Mary....is this anything a Christian should do? These are the attributes of God, these are the attributes given to Mary....draw your own conclusions. If Mary knew of such blasphemy done in her name, she'd weep.

Qtman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 7:27:31 AM)
Kellman I will give you that. But, do two wrongs make a right? We have spent pages talking about this very subject. How many times has it been said it is wrong to assigned such things to Mary. It just bothers me when we tell the RCC how wrong and disrespectful they are and then turn around and show disrespect ourselves. What the RCC does not not justify disrespect on our part. Edited to fix stupid typos.

KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 9:30:43 AM)
kelman, quote: The "locomotive" remarks do not rise anywhere near to the level of dishonor and disrespect done to Mary than what RC is doing to her memory. Addressing Mary by the title given to a pagan goddess...is this anything a Christian should be doing? Ascribing to Mary all the unique qualities of the Lord Jesus Christ...is this anything a Christian should be doing? True. Think about this one phrase in a prayer to Mary; I greet thee, Mary, Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and on earth. This woman, which was no doubt blessed by God and had a unique role in history, is made out to be some sort of super all powerful hero of the universe. I would think if she had all the power in heaven and on earth she would be able to either propel or halt any locomotive with ease! Those in the RCC would like to instantly scream "offensive" because it takes the reader away from the absurdity of the phrase and tries to pull at the heart strings (emotions) of the reader instead of anything factual. If the phrase is factual and based on facts she should be faster than any speeding bullet and stronger than any locomotive and it should not be offensive to claim that she is. The thing is, most Roman Catholics do not want to bring people into their group by using facts......they appeal to emotions without facts and Roman Catholics are a very emotional and superstitious people. That is why they have lists of saints to pray to for all of the things of the world......it comforts them emotionally. It is not dis-respectful to the person of Mary to mention things that bring out the absurdity of the absurd phrase itself. It is the phrase that is absurd. It is the reading of the phrase and then being told we dont know how to interpret or understand what it means as if Roman Catholic English is not understandable by English speaking protestants. This phrase given in a prayer is absurd and it shows how the RCC is absurd in their prayers to Mary. Of course........it must just be that we dont understand the phrase. [;)] KJB

KingJamesBond -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 9:49:50 AM)
"In the meantime, a separate bronze reliquary � an urn containing arm bones from the bodies of Louis and Marie Zelie Guerin Martin � has been set to the right of the Altar of the Chair in St. Peter�s Basilica for the general public�s prayer and veneration." http://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/relics-of-blessed-louis-and-zelie-martin-visit-the-vatican/ "Celebrations for the bicentennial of the birth of St. John Bosco, the founder of the Salesian order and champion of underprivileged children, are underway with a five-continent "pilgrimage" of his relics. The crystal and aluminum urn containing a likeness of the saint and his right arm bone has been displayed in several Italian cities. On June 4, top Vatican officials honored the saint when the urn was brought to the St. Callixtus catacombs on the Appian Way in Rome........................................ Pope Benedict XVI has agreed, at the request of the Father Pascual Chavez Villanueva, the Salesian rector superior, to grant plenary indulgences to those who make a pilgrimage to see and pray before the urn in various locations around the world. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0902640.htm How sweet of him to grant plenary indulgences to those that make a pilgrimage to see and pray in front of an urn containing the right arm bone of a man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence KJB

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 12:07:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patricius79 As Scripture says, �Say to the King, and to the Queen Mother�. �where is the flock that was entrusted to you�?� And what "Scripture" would that be? Book, chapter and verse please. quote: WILDBYNATURE WROTE: quote: So your Scriptural explanation as to why you believe you have "rightfully" applied the title of a pagan deity to Mary is -- "because we can"? The reason why we accept this title is the same as why we accept the closing of the N.T. Canon: [because Christ told us to in two ways through the authority of the historic Church ...which is: �the pillar and ground of the Truth� �Christ�s Body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way.� So, you accept this title for Mary because you erroneously believe the RC is the "pillar of truth" and the "fullness of Christ". In other words, you accept it because the RC said it � told you to believe it � and you believed it. How is that different from the "because we can" answer -- neither one is a Scriptural explanation as to why you call her "queen of heaven". quote: The Church has never rejected anything good or salvage-able in pagan or secular sources, We know the RC accepts pagan and secular sources, but the Body of Christ believes the Scriptures that tell us we are not to: Eph 5:6-11, Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 12:14:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patricius79 WILDBYNATUREWROTE: quote: however, the Scriptures do NOT show that God bestowed the title "queen of heaven" to either the pagan deity or to Mary. The idea that Mary is Queen of Heaven is truly implicit in Scripture, in the manner which the Catholic Church�s doctrine of �the Trinity� is (Cf. Mt 28:19). As the prophet says, �Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the King�s Mother, who sat at his right.� (1 Kings 2:19) The doctrine of �the Trinity� took centuries to develop, but the roots of the doctrine can be seen from the first century. The clearest early expression of the concept came with Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early third century. Tertullian coined the term "Trinity". Clearly the doctrine of the �Trinity� cannot be credited to the CC as the idea was truly implicit before the CC existed. Matt 28:19, as opposed to 1King 2:19, clearly says there is a "Father, ... Son and ... Holy Spirit". If you believe 1Kings 2:19 is speaking of Mary, then you must also believe that Jesus bows down before Mary: "And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her". Show me one Scriptural example of Jesus bowing down to Mary. quote: By the way: the practice of giving chapter and verse is not not Scriptural, though it is no prohibited by Scripture. Lame. quote: quote: Where does Scripture say there are "queens" in heaven? Rev 12:1 says that there is a Queen in Heaven. No it doesn't. That's what you want it to say. It simply says there was a vision of �a woman� and upon proper exegetical study, one can see that this "woman" is neither Mary nor a �queen�. quote: Of the rest of us: we are royalty also, since we are children of this Queen: Ouch!!! We are "royalty" because we are children of GOD. quote: ��a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God,� (1 Pt 2:9). Exactly ... we belong to GOD, not Mary. Do you bother to read these prooftexts when you post them? quote: Since we are one nation of the Holy Spirit, we can intercede for one another. This is just another unbiblical conclusion of the RC. The only intercessor we have is Jesus Christ. There is no other who can intercede for us. Living people can't "intercede" for one another so why would you think dead people can intercede for the living? There is not one biblical example of this. quote: quote: Where does Scripture say Mary is "the preeminent Christian"? I will be happy to answer that if you will first show where the Scriptures say it is bad to communicate with those we have �come to�(Heb 12:22), namely: �the spirits of the just made perfect� (Heb 12:23): If you had been allowed to study what is meant by the "just" being "made perfect", you would have seen: 1. That "the just" is referring to ALL believers (saints), not just a few dead saints chosen by the RC. 2. That no one has been "made perfect" yet as it is speaks of the resurrection -- which has not taken place. 3. That no one who died before us will be resurrected and "made perfect" without us (Heb 11:40), As for it being �bad� to communicate with those in the grave (dead) � Deut 18:10-11; Lev 19:31, 20:6; 1Chron 10:13; Isa 8:19-20; etc. Your turn � where does Scripture say Mary is "the preeminent Christian"? quote: �Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30�32, Eph. 6:18�20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11)....Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus�. Where in these verses do you see prayers directed to anyone or anything other than God? Notice these verses speak of the living directing their prayers to God. Not one of these verses speak of the living directing prayers to the dead. Apparently you believe just because we are required to pray to God, doesn�t mean we can�t pray to a dead person. quote: One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus said faith the size of a mustard see can move mountains. He never implied that if you had a faith that is weak or lacking you need to pray to someone else besides Him. Faith is a gift. God will not give you a faith that is incapable of allowing you to go directly to Him in prayer. quote: Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person�s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15�18, Mark 9:17�29, Luke 8:49�55). Where is praying to a dead guy in any of those verses? Please read your prooftexts before cutting and pasting them from catholic.com. The centurion�s servant was healed because the centurion asked Jesus to heal him � we don�t see that the servant prayed to the centurion first. The daughter was healed because the mother asked Jesus to heal her � we don�t see that the daughter prayed to the mother first. The son was saved from his demonic possession because the father asked Jesus to heal him � we don�t see that the son prayed to the father first. The ruler�s daughter was brought back to life without anyone asking Jesus � in fact, they laughed at Him when He said she was just sleeping. quote: And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.� You assume the spirits you are praying to are in heaven. quote: You accept other Catholic teachings implicit in Scripture�such as the N.T. Canon, and the idea of �the Trinity�--which are confirmed by the historic Bride of Christ. Sorry, no. I don�t accept any Catholic teaching. I believe in the �Canon� and the �Trinity� because they are taught in the Scriptures. quote: For this reason, I hope you will accept the equally clear teaching that Mary is the Queen Mother of the Davidic Kingdom (cf. Luke 1:32), which is Heaven. You want me to accept that Mary is the �queen of heaven� because that is what the CC teaches? Again, no. So where is this clear teaching that Mary is the �queen of heaven�? I must have missed it.

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 12:21:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patricius79 WILDBYNATURE CONTINUES: quote: So, where does the Word of God testify that the false apostle usurping Peter Pebble's office has the authority to say who is or is not in heaven? There are many challenges here. For what the Biblical Church has always believed about Apostolic Succession, Church infallibility, Simon Rock and the Papacy: The �Biblical Church� has never believed in Apostolic succession, church infallibility, Peter Pebble or the pope. Would it be possible for you to provide a response based on what you believe, rather than a link to RC propaganda? BTW, isn�t it interesting that Propaganda is the name of a RCC division of the Roman Curia that has authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories where there is no properly organized hierarchy. quote: The Word of God has always been one Person, expressed orally and in writing. Expressed orally and then in writing � thus we have the Scriptures. quote: The idea that Writ can be separated from Word of mouth is not supported by the Scriptures or history. If that is the case, then why is the RC�s �word of mouth� separated from the �writ�. In my case, since the �writ� is what was �word of mouth� they are not separated -- they are all included in the Bible. quote: As Scripture says, �Do you understand what you are reading?� He answered: �How can I unless someone instructs me?� (Acts 8:31). Praise God that He sent us the Holy Spirit to instruct us in all righteousness through His inspired Word (2Tim 3:16) and to dwell inside us as our teacher � just as He was with Philip the Evangelist. John 14:26, But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. If the Ethiopian could not understand the Scriptures without Philip�s help, then how come after he believed God took Philip away from him? quote: The �automatic out� works very easily through the doctrine of Private Judgment/Sola Scriptura, Actually, the �automatic out� was the way the RC defines the �Word of God� to include extra-biblical sources which are claimed to be as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves. quote: quote: which is as authoritative as the Word of God The prophecy from the O.T. was of a continuous oral Word (Is 59:21) The N.T. teaches that the oral Gospel is the Word of God. Cf. 1 Thes 1:8, 2:13. This oral Gospel is inseparable from the Scriptures (cf. Acts 17:11) They are not separated � what they received �orally� was what we have written in the NT today. Thus the Scriptures are the complete Word of God. There is no need for extra-biblical oral traditions that contradict the Scriptures. God is not an author of confusion. quote: �Since Mary is Jesus� mother[Jn 2:1], it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. Mary gave birth to �the man Christ Jesus� � not the divinity. God existed long before Mary. 1Tim 2:5; Rom 5:15-17; John 8:58. quote: There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.� Syllogisms may be a valid form of logic, but they are meant to be used with valid premises or the conclusion is nothing more than deception. The problem with the one above, is that the Jesus that walked among us was the Son of God, not God the Father � as your �premise� wants us to believe in order for Mary to be worshipped as being divine by association. Here�s a perfect example of the deception behind your logic: 1. Mary was married to Joseph. 2. Mary gave birth to the Son of God. 3. Therefore, Joseph is God. Or, how about: 3. Therefore, Mary was an adulteress.

patricius79 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 12:34:47 PM)
WILDBYNATURE WROTE: quote: And what "Scripture" would that be? Book, chapter and verse please. Jer 13:18-20 quote: In other words, you accept it because the RC said it � told you to believe it � and you believed it. I accept it for three reasons which are historically inextricable: A)the Scriptures teach it. B) the Christian oral tradition teaches it C)the historic Successors of the Apostles teach it.

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 12:40:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patricius79 MANIMAL WROTE: quote: �. praying TO old dead sinners. As Scripture says, "�And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living . . .�" (Mark 12:26-27) Have the dead been raised already? quote: WILD BYNATURE WROTE: quote: We are NOT to pray to dead guys -- they are not the one who makes intercession for us. "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). And this shows dead guys make intercession � how? Apparently this stems, once again, from your lack of understanding of the Tabernacle. But, surely, the Greek word rendered �prayers� would be enough to show your error. The �prayers� offered were songs of praise and worship � not petitions for need. The word is proseuche meaning: worship � NOT deesis meaning: request, supplication. And, the song of praise didn�t actually come out of the bowls -- as if the prayers were made to the elders to bring to God. God commanded Moses that at the time the incense was burned was when the song of praise and worship was to be sung. quote: quote: Why can't you just trust that God has provided what we need to know in His Holy Scriptures as they testify? Paul taught we are not to go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6) Actually, the phrase here��to go��is not in 1 Cor 4:6. Not in your translation -- that would destroy your belief in extra-biblical oral traditions. Another lame argument. quote: (The same letter commends the �traditions� of the Corinthians (11:2), recalling 2 Thes 2:15, where Paul binds the Thesallonians to the unwritten traditions.) Your error is in believing these referred to �ordinances� or �traditions� are �unwritten�. The RC�s interpretation shows an absolute lack of faith in God�s inspired Scriptures. quote: So Mary is filled with Christ�s authority, by Christ�s choice. She does not compete with it. As the prophet says, �Ask it, my mother,� the King said to her, �for I will not refuse you.�(1 Kings 2:20). Obviously this is not speaking of Mary, since Christ did �refuse� her on a few occasions.

patricius79 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 1:07:49 PM)
WILDBYNATURE WROTE: quote: The doctrine of �the Trinity� took centuries to develop, but the roots of the doctrine can be seen from the first century. Correct. The same is true with the Marian doctrines and the intercession of the saints. quote: Tertullian coined the term "Trinity". Clearly the doctrine of the �Trinity� cannot be credited to the CC as the idea was truly implicit before the CC existed. I think nobody has given evidence that the Catholic Church is not the Biblical Church, or that there is another historical candidate for this title. The Church in Tertullian�s time was called �the Catholic Church�, and held to the distinctively Catholic doctrines, including prayers for the dead.

WildByNature -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (11/8/2009 2:12:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patricius79 WILDBYNATURE WROTE: quote: And what "Scripture" would that be? Book, chapter and verse please. Jer 13:18-20 If you believe this is speaking of Jesus (king) and Mary (queen), then you are saying they were so full of pride that God had to punish them and humble them by removing their crowns of glory and allowing their "flock" to be taken away from them (vs. 17, 21). Your eisegesis is not only extremely contradictory to the Scriptures, but what would you call the belief that Jesus was prideful = sinful? Not to mention that this would also contradict your belief that Mary was sinless. Doesn't the RC see how their prooftexts blow a hole in their own beliefs? And people fall for this stuff ... unbelievable. quote: quote: In other words, you accept it because the RC said it � told you to believe it � and you believed it. I accept it for three reasons which are historically inextricable: A)the Scriptures teach it. B) the Christian oral tradition teaches it C)the historic Successors of the Apostles teach it. It's a mess alright. You have been unable to prove the Scriptures teach Mary is the "queen of heaven", and your other two reasons are simply "because the RC tells you to believe it" -- based on extra-biblical traditions of man and false apostles.

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