RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary?

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sdaw -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/18/2005 9:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mike711 sdaw, quote: Where do you think the creators of the X-Files got their inspiration? What are X-Files? Mike Muldar? Scully? The Smoking Man has really done it this time. Come Holy Spirit!

mike711 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 12:03:52 AM)
sdaw, quote: Muldar? Scully? The Smoking Man has really done it this time. Means nothing to me at all. [sm=crazy.gif] Mike [sm=icon_smile_super.gif]

catherwood -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 6:08:07 AM)
If you are going to pray to saints who have gone on to Paradise in order to ask them to pray for you - like how we would ask a brother or sister who is living on earth to pray for us - well, you better pray out loud so that they can hear you! [;)] I think the Lord wants us to ask our livng brothers and sisters to pray for us - not the dead ones. That seems to be what He commands. Just because some of the early church did this doesn't mean it is correct. The devil has been around for a long time too. There is no record of the church doing this in Scripture. Acts 2.42 talks about what the early church did. We had better do that. 'And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.' No mention of the prayers being to dead saints. You won't find any command in Scripture to do it either. We shouldn't add to or take away from God's commands or promises. We don't have the right to do that. [;)] God bless, keep and lead, Catherwood

catherwood -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 6:13:11 AM)
Also...asking the dead saints, or a living saint for that matter, to pray for you isn't prayer. Prayer includes in it's definition the idea of worship and adoration. Surely the Lord doesn't want us to worship something other than Himself. Talking to someone that doesn't have worship and adoration in it for the person you are talking to isn't prayer. [;)] Take care, Catherwood

sdaw -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 6:54:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mike711 sdaw, quote: Muldar? Scully? The Smoking Man has really done it this time. Means nothing to me at all. [sm=crazy.gif] Mike [sm=icon_smile_super.gif] Dear Mike, The X-Files was a popular dramatic TV series of several years ago. Muldar and Scully were two FBI agents, who were partners. Muldar was convinced that there was a vast government conspiracy to hide the truth about aliens. Scully (who was quite a fox) was the sceptical one. The series was a whole lot better than it sounds, at least at the beginning. Like all such, it became a parody of itself, and I quit watching it. It is in syndication all over the dial. You might catch a few episodes if you like. Come Holy Spirit!

mike711 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 1:39:32 PM)
sdaw, quote: "The X-Files was a popular dramatic TV series of several years ago. Muldar and Scully were two FBI agents, who were partners. Muldar was convinced that there was a vast government conspiracy to hide the truth about aliens. Scully (who was quite a fox) was the sceptical one. The series was a whole lot better than it sounds, at least at the beginning. Like all such, it became a parody of itself, and I quit watching it. It is in syndication all over the dial. You might catch a few episodes if you like." I had a feeling it might be a movie, TV show, or book. I've never seen it. I lost interest in the "entertainment" channels years ago. Same with movies. I've been in a movie theatre 3 times since 1976. The last prime time TV program I tried to tune in each week was "Northern Exposure". I generally watch the christian channels, news channels, sports channels, the history channel, etc. The weather channel also. The problem with todays prime time sitcoms is that they arent funny. If I'm over at someone elses place and any of them are on...Stienfeld, the Friends one, the Raymond one...I just sit there stone faced in amazment that these things make it past one season. The gags arent funny, the jokes arent funny, the facial expressions arent funny. Sitcoms used to actually be funny! Dick Van Dyke show, All In The Family, MASH, Barney Miller, WKRP in Cincinatti, Soap, etc etc etc. Northern Exposer was hilarious, in a sly quirky kind of way. Thats the only one from the 90's that I liked. And so many of the dramas are filled with filth, promotion of lesbianisn and male homoseuality, violence, "politically correct" lunacy, etc etc. Oh well, I guess I'm just an old fogey! (and I'm only im my 40's!) Mike

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 10:17:09 PM)
Dear catherwood: You: "No mention of the prayers being to dead saints. You won't find any command in Scripture to do it either. We shouldn't add to or take away from God's commands or promises. We don't have the right to do that." Me: NOR do we have a right to build TRUTH INTO a faith WE made, a faith in a system that is NOT from his word, ONE that IS NOT Jesus, NOR NEVER taught FROM HIM. Grace and Peace

divinemercy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 10:32:51 PM)
Mike the X files came out in late 80`s , i remember cause it came out before i was married in dec 88. so you must of not watch tv dramas or whatever you call it for almost 20 years. dont blame you mind you. Most shows on tv are harmful. but that series was full of conspiracys as the ppl of today crave especially in end times forums like here. It is a way of life. cant look for the man with a smoking gun , or conspiracy, or things that are not there (so not true) Truth is all there is. I did like that show though. LOL

divinemercy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 10:37:13 PM)
catherwood: quote: Prayer includes in it's definition the idea of worship and adoration. say you. We ask others to pray for us. You may do so with your family or friends dont you? It is called intercession. Did you not ever ask anyone to pray for you?

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 10:47:05 PM)
Dear divinemercy: You: {catherwood: quote: Prayer includes in it's definition the idea of worship and adoration.} say you. We ask others to pray for us. You may do so with your family or friends dont you? It is called intercession. Did you not ever ask anyone to pray for you? Me: Jesus did not pray TO anyone than his Father. NOR did he teach us "this" faith in your above statement. Yet you find it ok? btw: Jesus' prayers to God WAS most definitely adoration and worship! Yes, catherwood-you are right-Jesus taught us that 'prayer' TO GOD is adoration and worship! And everything else we can imagine and more. grace AND peace

mike711 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 11:04:55 PM)
Divine Mercy, quote: so you must of not watch tv dramas or whatever you call it for almost 20 years. Nope. Sometimes I see them if I'm visiting someone, but almost never at home. If my wife has something on I might happen to watch something, but since I have no interest I usually find something else to do. (course, she usually watchs the "womens channel"...where all the women are saints, and all the men are psychopaths[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]) There are entire hit shows that have appeared, been highly succesful, won awards, then finally end...with me never seeing a single episode. [sm=eek.gif] There are simply other things available these days with cable TV, etc. it used to be...in the 60's and 70's...that every city had about 5 channels, so you didnt have much choice. But not now. quote: "dont blame you mind you. Most shows on tv are harmful." Sure seems that way to me. Every time I have had to watch some of that "friends" show I'm just stunned that it made it past the 1st year. Incredible. quote: "but that series was full of conspiracys as the ppl of today crave especially in end times forums like here. It is a way of life. cant look for the man with a smoking gun , or conspiracy, or things that are not there (so not true) Truth is all there is. I did like that show though. LOL" Maybe sometime I'll watch a rerun of it and see if I might like it. God bless, Mike

divinemercy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 11:22:01 PM)
Mike, We then agree very much on tv and movies. Not because they may be just harmful but that they are distasteful and hurtful to us because of our love for God. There is some good on tv , not saying the womans channel , where they just show movies about women and their troubles. ha. We love God and our thoughts not only want to be aligned to Him but our desire only craves that. We are to meditate and thus think on things pure and just and lovely. I wont look for the verse now.You know what one it is,maybe philippians?

mike711 -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/19/2005 11:37:36 PM)
divinemercy, quote: "We are to meditate and thus think on things pure and just and lovely. I wont look for the verse now.You know what one it is,maybe philippians? I dont have scriptures here, but something like... "Whatever things are lovely, whatever is of good report, whatever things are praiseworthy, noble etc...think on these things." Pretty sure it is in Phillipians. Mike

GoodME -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/20/2005 11:18:09 AM)
quote: Prayer includes in it's definition the idea of worship and adoration Not entirely true. "Pray" is a request. You find this word all the time in legal documents, wherein the attorneys are requesting action from the court following a summary or brief - "we pray the court find ..." You have simply scoped this word to mean what you say it means in order to make your point, after being instructed by those that follow this practice as to what they are actually doing.

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/20/2005 6:49:28 PM)
Dear All, When Jesus prayed to the Father, his prayers were filled with worship, adoration, and request. Grace and Peace

1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/20/2005 7:05:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeborahL Dear All, When Jesus prayed to the Father, his prayers were filled with worship, adoration, and request. Grace and Peace As should we all.

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/20/2005 8:32:01 PM)
Dear lightseeker: Praise God. Amen. I am so very thankful that God gave us his Son, who set the example for us. Grace and Peace to you

onelordofall -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/20/2005 11:41:40 PM)
catherwood wrote: quote: Also...asking the dead saints, or a living saint for that matter, to pray for you isn't prayer. Prayer includes in it's definition the idea of worship and adoration. Actually, the highest form of worship is sacrifice, not prayer. Prayer can consist of many different things other than "worship and adoration;" i.e., petition. quote: Surely the Lord doesn't want us to worship something other than Himself. Agree. That is the very reason that devout Catholic Christians with a well-formed faith and conscience would never "worship" anyone/thing other than God. quote: Talking to someone that doesn't have worship and adoration in it for the person you are talking to isn't prayer. To be more precise, what you describe would not be "worship" or "adoration." The word "prayer" can also be defined as "an earnest request; entreaty; supplication." [See Webster's New World College Dictionary] Earnestly entreating a departed Saint for intercession may appropriately be called "prayer" with no hint of "worship and adoration." Hope this helps. Pax Christi, Michael

catherwood -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 9:26:30 AM)
Dear DeborahL, Divinemercy and GoodMe, Thanks for the responses and good input! [:D] The word 'prayer' does include in it the idea of worship and is distinguished from requests and petitions. You will see this if you do a study of the passage Phil. 4.6,7. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.' See, prayer and supplications are separate terms and they are used that way because they have two different meanings. Notice the plain meaning of these verses. It is God's peace that guards our hearts and minds. That peace comes to us through Jesus Christ. It doesn't come to us through anyone else. The requests are to be to God and no one else. If you do something that Scripture doesn't specifically say to do - i.e. - ask dead saints to pray for you - you have no way of knowing what is really going on because Scripture is silent on the issue. All you can do is make assumptions, guesses or wishes about what is going on. Are these dead saints praying for me? Did they hear me from heaven (which is beyond outerspace by the way - it's the 'third heaven' spoken about in Scripture)? Why would I think that a human beyond outerspace would be able to hear what I say on earth? Humans aren't omniscient. But what is clearly taught in Scripture is that 'whatever is not of faith is sin' Rom. 14.23. Guessing, wishing and assuming are not faith. 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' Heb. 11.1. The things 'hoped for' and the 'things not seen' are things that we know about and anticipate happening because they are taught to us in God's word. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God', Rom. 10.17, etc. The word of God preached is the only thing that produces faith. God bless, keep and lead in Christ, Catherwood

sdaw -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 12:37:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catherwood Dear DeborahL, Divinemercy and GoodMe, Thanks for the responses and good input! [:D] The word 'prayer' does include in it the idea of worship and is distinguished from requests and petitions. You will see this if you do a study of the passage Phil. 4.6,7. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.' See, prayer and supplications are separate terms and they are used that way because they have two different meanings. Notice the plain meaning of these verses. It is God's peace that guards our hearts and minds. That peace comes to us through Jesus Christ. It doesn't come to us through anyone else. The requests are to be to God and no one else. If you do something that Scripture doesn't specifically say to do - i.e. - ask dead saints to pray for you - you have no way of knowing what is really going on because Scripture is silent on the issue. All you can do is make assumptions, guesses or wishes about what is going on. Are these dead saints praying for me? Did they hear me from heaven (which is beyond outerspace by the way - it's the 'third heaven' spoken about in Scripture)? Why would I think that a human beyond outerspace would be able to hear what I say on earth? Humans aren't omniscient. But what is clearly taught in Scripture is that 'whatever is not of faith is sin' Rom. 14.23. Guessing, wishing and assuming are not faith. 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' Heb. 11.1. The things 'hoped for' and the 'things not seen' are things that we know about and anticipate happening because they are taught to us in God's word. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God', Rom. 10.17, etc. The word of God preached is the only thing that produces faith. God bless, keep and lead in Christ, Catherwood Dear Catherwood, Nothing produces faith. It is given by grace. On the Feast of St. Anselm Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 2:34:31 PM)
Dear Catherwood: Phil. 4.6,7. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.' Me: Thank you for sharing this wonderful passage. Praise God for his gospel: "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness --- a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the be- ginning of time, and at his ap- pointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by command of God our Savior." Grace and Peace

Heavyduty -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 6:16:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catherwood Dear DeborahL, Divinemercy and GoodMe, Thanks for the responses and good input! [:D] The word 'prayer' does include in it the idea of worship and is distinguished from requests and petitions. You will see this if you do a study of the passage Phil. 4.6,7. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.' See, prayer and supplications are separate terms and they are used that way because they have two different meanings. Notice the plain meaning of these verses. It is God's peace that guards our hearts and minds. That peace comes to us through Jesus Christ. It doesn't come to us through anyone else. The requests are to be to God and no one else. If you do something that Scripture doesn't specifically say to do - i.e. - ask dead saints to pray for you - you have no way of knowing what is really going on because Scripture is silent on the issue. All you can do is make assumptions, guesses or wishes about what is going on. Are these dead saints praying for me? Did they hear me from heaven (which is beyond outerspace by the way - it's the 'third heaven' spoken about in Scripture)? Why would I think that a human beyond outerspace would be able to hear what I say on earth? Humans aren't omniscient. But what is clearly taught in Scripture is that 'whatever is not of faith is sin' Rom. 14.23. Guessing, wishing and assuming are not faith. 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' Heb. 11.1. The things 'hoped for' and the 'things not seen' are things that we know about and anticipate happening because they are taught to us in God's word. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God', Rom. 10.17, etc. The word of God preached is the only thing that produces faith. God bless, keep and lead in Christ, Catherwood Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede.

sdaw -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 8:20:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Heavyduty quote: ORIGINAL: catherwood Dear DeborahL, Divinemercy and GoodMe, Thanks for the responses and good input! [:D] The word 'prayer' does include in it the idea of worship and is distinguished from requests and petitions. You will see this if you do a study of the passage Phil. 4.6,7. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding shall guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.' See, prayer and supplications are separate terms and they are used that way because they have two different meanings. Notice the plain meaning of these verses. It is God's peace that guards our hearts and minds. That peace comes to us through Jesus Christ. It doesn't come to us through anyone else. The requests are to be to God and no one else. If you do something that Scripture doesn't specifically say to do - i.e. - ask dead saints to pray for you - you have no way of knowing what is really going on because Scripture is silent on the issue. All you can do is make assumptions, guesses or wishes about what is going on. Are these dead saints praying for me? Did they hear me from heaven (which is beyond outerspace by the way - it's the 'third heaven' spoken about in Scripture)? Why would I think that a human beyond outerspace would be able to hear what I say on earth? Humans aren't omniscient. But what is clearly taught in Scripture is that 'whatever is not of faith is sin' Rom. 14.23. Guessing, wishing and assuming are not faith. 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' Heb. 11.1. The things 'hoped for' and the 'things not seen' are things that we know about and anticipate happening because they are taught to us in God's word. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God', Rom. 10.17, etc. The word of God preached is the only thing that produces faith. God bless, keep and lead in Christ, Catherwood Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede. Dear Heavyduty, It is definitely asking to intercede. I think a case for praying "to" the saints can be made, with the understanding that whatever power they may have is given them by God for His glory. But that is my person opinion , by no means Church teaching. On the Feast of St. Anselm Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 9:14:27 PM)
Dear Heavy duty: "Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede" Me: NO: THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD. Intercession = Our Savior. Grace and Peace

1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/21/2005 9:51:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeborahL Dear Heavy duty: "Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede" Me: NO: THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD. Intercession = Our Savior. Grace and Peace Ephesians 6:18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, There are many verses about praying for each other. Intercessory prayer is usually for the benefit of someone else. We believe the departed Saints do this for us, and we pray/intercede for the departed to receive mercy on judgement day as well. It's really nice to be joined in the bond of goodwill with the heavenly hosts. It's about loving your neighbor, and recieving their love, which all has its origin in Christ's love for and in them. And I don't think Scripture says that the departed are further away than the far reaches of space as someone said earlier.

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