RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (Full Version)

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1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 9:14:41 AM)

Dear Deborah,

quote:

ORIGINAL:

You: I now see how you are distinguishing why you believe that it is ok to ask earthbound Christians to pray for us, and not passed on Christians.

Me: No. I do NOT think you do--you have not stated my position.


Do you believe that the prayers of other believers are necessary?

quote:

You: We however do not discriminate between those with bodies and those who are awaiting their bodies. That makes them seem like second class citizens of heaven.

Me: Bless you--you are expressing your agenda--but not what CHRIST, imho-has taught us FROM HIS WORD, and thus his prayers. Which are the way truth and life for us.


My agenda is to love God with my whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and my neighbor as myself. I believe we have this in common. You could say that Jesus' prayers are only to the Father. But what is so amazing to me is that God the Son ever asked anything of mere mortals, why did He desire His disciples to stay awake and pray with Him in the Garden of Gethsemane? Why did He ever depend on Mary to take care of Him? Why does He ask us to pray for one another? It is mind-blowing, but it is His will.

quote:

And so, again: I see. I do not please you, thought I desire to love you--and I do this reply, for you, because I delight in his word.
All the Amens are only in Christ. And we cannot go to another idol for any amen


Thank you for taking the time to reply. I desire to be loving in return. And all the people said, "Amen"



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 11:14:11 AM)

Dear Heavyduty:

"So then you agree that Jesus was not sinning by talking to the departed Saints and they were not sinning by talking to him."

Me: Jesus was not praying TO the saints on the mt.

Grace and Peace



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 11:19:25 AM)

Dear Divinemercy:

Samuel was a prophet.

In these last days God speaks to us by his Son.

Grace and Peace



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 11:31:39 AM)

Dear Divinemercy:

You: Saul told him his fate and Israels fate of something that was future. And it came to pass.
Saul didnt pull that rabbit out of his own hat

Me: It is ALL ''from God''. No other persons.
Before Samuel tells Saul that God has rejected him and has sought a man after his own heart-Chapter 13-15, Paul was annointed King Chapter 10.
--Whereby Samuel prophesies that the Spirit of the LORD will come upon Saul, in power, and he will prophesy with the prophets who come down from the high place.

Grace and Peace

Grace and Peace.



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 11:43:33 AM)

Dear Divinemercy:


You: When someone says prayer or praying they are communicating (talking). Nothing more. That is what prayer means.

Me: We are specifically discussing praying TO Mary and TO the saints.
The word does not teach us to pray TO any other being than TO God. Our spirit to his Holy Spirit.

You: When one asks petitions of God or the saints, they are communicating (talking).
Worship does not equal prayer.

Me: Our prayer TO God must reflect purity of our faith TO God. Prayer contains worship. We do not bow down or bend our knee to any other idol, only TO: God. He is spirit.

You: Plenty of prayers contain no worship. Prayers to God by us, of contrition and repentance, and supplication and intercession.
Me: I respectfully disagree. Prayer expresses our complete devotion, purity in faith, TO God--this is a spiritual sacrifice holy and pleasing TO him.

You: But we worship God through (by) prayer and of course by our words and actions through daily life.
Me: Worship that God seeks starts with true worship in Spirit. We are his workmanship created, in Christ by faith, to do good work.

Grace and Peace to you



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 12:06:07 PM)

Dear lightseeker:

You: Do you believe that the prayers of other believers are necessary?
Me: Yes: for the building of fellowship in his body and deepening reationships that embrace and express ''purity'' of the one faith, one Spirit and one LORD that we are called to, and no other idol.

It is clear the good news does not teach the body of Christ TO pray TO another being.



You: My agenda is to love God with my whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and my neighbor as myself.
Me: Praise God!

You: I believe we have this in common. You could say that Jesus' prayers are only to the Father. But what is so amazing to me is that God the Son ever asked anything of mere mortals, why did He desire His disciples to stay awake and pray with Him in the Garden of Gethsemane?
Me: The disciples To pray with him-TO God. Not TO any other being.

You: Why did He ever depend on Mary to take care of Him? Why does He ask us to pray for one another? It is mind-blowing, but it is His will.
Me: Jesus came down from heaven and was made in the likeness of humanity. He suffered and shared in our humanity so that HE is able to intercede for ALL our weaknesses. Even though he was found without sin-he offered himself-so that God will forgive us by faith in his blood. And he is completely sufficient to wash and renew each believer.

Jesus does not teach us to pray TO Mary. Nor does he teach us to pray TO anyone but God, for the body of Christ.

What is so awesome is that God is very real, and very intimate in each one of his children. His children know they belong to him and that he loves them completely--completely and the he forgives them--completely by faith. And we know because he has given us his Holy Spirit, whom makes his home in us. Each one of us conforms: TO him. NO other idol.



Grace and Peace



sadiebelle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 12:09:33 PM)

Question:
Praying together is in line with Scripture as it says, "...where two or more are gathered..."
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?



GoodME -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 12:37:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?

Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.

To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.

I recognize others, who have a different thought process on this - some of which I find uncomfortable (the idea that the Saint can actually do anything, other than pray for me).

Like I said - if there was someone on this forum who showed a particular flair or efficacy to "have the ear of God", I would certainly ask that person to include me in their prayers (I ask that of you, for one, right now - who doesn't need the thoughts and prayers of other Faithful in their lives?).

But the "difference" that you are talking about, to me, is that demonstration of efficacy. That at the moment of trial, I might demonstrate the same Grace and dignity and courage in my difficult choices and inauguration of those choices that the Saints did in theirs.

This I believe to be not only valid, but beneficial.



1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 1:09:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle

Question:
Praying together is in line with Scripture as it says, "...where two or more are gathered..."
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?


In addition to what GoodMe said,
Jas 5:16 - Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Saints are considered more righteous than the average Christian here on earth. Especially now that they've left this fallen world. Therefore we believe their prayers are more effective.



sadiebelle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 1:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle

Question:
Praying together is in line with Scripture as it says, "...where two or more are gathered..."
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?


In addition to what GoodMe said,
Jas 5:16 - Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Saints are considered more righteous than the average Christian here on earth. Especially now that they've left this fallen world. Therefore we believe their prayers are more effective.

With all due respect as brothers and sisters in the Lord,"more righteous". I'm sorry, that's really lame. As if God would hear the prayers of these Saints in heaven more so vs. the prayers of Christians on earth. Yuck. I see nothing in Scripture that promotes the use of Saints in heaven to get your point across to God. These Saints hold no more "sway" over God than I do. Show me this in Scripture.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:14:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: divinemercy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeborahL

Dear Divinemercy:

"DeborahL,

How come in the OT a man asked and received advice from someone that had died(in the body)?

and it came to pass exactly as the dead(in the body) man said?"

Me:

Why do you not be transparent and tell us?

Grace and Peace


1 Samuel 28

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do." 16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."20 Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

I will not paste all of chapters 28-31 for reason of space.
But Samuel asking Saul and Saul speaking back to him and giving the advice is in Chapter 28
The battle and defeat of Israel in Chapters 29-31.
Saul said Samuel and his sons would be with Saul (they would die) is in chapter 31.
6 Thus Saul died, and his three sons, and his armor-bearer, and all his men, on the same day together

Just as Saul ,who was dead in body, said.





Greetings,

I am not sure where you came up with the translation above but
If one reads carefully the scriptures, in verse 15 there is a major difference, whereas Saul summoned the prophet Samuel.
Samuel was not God, but is Gods messenger, thus Samuel replied
"Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
What is interesting however is what the Medium saw in verse 13 and 14. When she saw Samuel she knew she was deceived. This simple means that evil can not summon the good, so she deceived Saul by describing Samuel in which I am sure she was well aware of when she Spoke of Saul in 1 Sam 28:9.

The spirit ascending out of the earth in verse 13 and 14 is a pretty close comparison to the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit in the book of revelation

That Spirit was “perceived” to be Samuel by Saul, but God spoke through this “form” as mentioned in verse 14

But what I found to be interesting is in verse 19.
There is a new revelation, or a new addition to what Samuel had spoken to Saul mentioned in verse 17
“The LORD has done for Himself, as he spoke by me”
by the use of the word “Moreover” in verse 17.
So we can see an addition to what Samuel spoke to Saul while Samuel was alive, but this addition was given while he was dead or disturbed.

What is consistent in this study in that both the Medium and Saul were separated from God, and indeed Samuel waits in paradise for his redemption, then it was not Samuel who spoke and said to Saul in verse 19 “; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me”

19 Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me

There are 2 prophesies here, the first is from God “Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines” (semicolon) and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me:

There is a clear separation between “The Lord” and “ME”.

One must ask this question, why would God place Saul with Samuel in the (righteous) paradise and not in Hades? “and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me”:

If Saul did not consult the “Medium” would Saul have been shaken and weakened enough to loose the Battle?

The answer is no, Saul would have won, but he placed his beliefs by bowing to a spirit and to the advise requested in verse 15
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

It is quite clear that the spirit told Saul to die. “that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do”
Saul was deceived as he deceived the women.
This deception is verfied in Matt 4 as Jesus did not listen to Satan and the addition is seen in Matt 4:6


[q] 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.[/q]


Consistent as In the past Samuel always appeared to Saul with the word of God, thus allowing God to speak through that spirit that ascended from the earth who was perceived by Saul to be Samuel,
Therefore the spirit that ascends combined Samuel’s prophecy with deceit, and Saul fell to his own words “mayest make known unto me what I shall do”





Loyal Gypsy



1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:15:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle


With all due respect as brothers and sisters in the Lord,"more righteous". I'm sorry, that's really lame. As if God would hear the prayers of these Saints in heaven more so vs. the prayers of Christians on earth. Yuck. I see nothing in Scripture that promotes the use of Saints in heaven to get your point across to God. These Saints hold no more "sway" over God than I do. Show me this in Scripture.


So when it says "the prayer of a righteous man avails much", that term equally applies to all?
So all Christians are clothed with Christ's righteousness forever, and there is none who are closer to Him relationally, or know Him better than anyone else? The Orthodox don't think so. We believe the more obedient you are, the closer you are to Him, and the better the communication.
God is omniscient and can hear anyone's prayer. So why do we ask fellow Christians to pray for us if He can hear us by ourselves? There must be something to intercessory prayer. And most people who believe that we go straight to heaven when we die, think that we will be closer to God than earth-bound people are in some way.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:20:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeborahL

Hello Loyalgypsy:

"Either from the Mouth of Christ or written in the Torah that the living conversed with the dead, Unless Saul was just kidding when he sought the sorceress, and even that brought destruction upon his family.
And again it did not free the rich man from Hades.

Again in the symbolism of Lazarus and the rich man, the dead is speaking to the dead and no where was it mentioned that the souls in heaven would relay that message.

When the rich man cried out to Abraham and asked him to tell his family about his pain in Hades
The reply in the message given to the rich man on the behalf of those who are alive was to seek Moses and the prophets or in other words “the word of God.”"

Me: It is very good to see you.

Grace and peace




DITTO!



Heavyduty -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:34:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeborahL

Dear Heavyduty:

"So then you agree that Jesus was not sinning by talking to the departed Saints and they were not sinning by talking to him."

Me: Jesus was not praying TO the saints on the mt.

Grace and Peace


So what you are saying is that praying to the Saints is wrong but talking to them isn't? I simply don't see the difference. Perhaps you could explain.



sadiebelle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:37:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker

So when it says "the prayer of a righteous man avails much", that term equally applies to all?
In relation to nonbelievers praying to God and they have no relationship with him? yeah.

quote:

So all Christians are clothed with Christ's righteousness forever, and there is none who are closer to Him relationally, or know Him better than anyone else?
There are levels of maturity. Are you trying to say that the prayers of little children are heard less over the prayers of older, more mature Saints? I don't think so.

quote:

The Orthodox don't think so. We believe the more obedient you are, the closer you are to Him, and the better the communication.
Sounds like boasting of your works.

quote:

God is omniscient and can hear anyone's prayer. So why do we ask fellow Christians to pray for us if He can hear us by ourselves?

God says to lift your burdens one to another and be fervent in prayer. Praying for other's needs above our own needs teaches us to be humble. Praying together teaches unity. Praying to Saints to get your prayers heard better than anyone else's prayers sounds like a man's idea of how things should work...not God's.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 2:59:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle

Question:
Praying together is in line with Scripture as it says, "...where two or more are gathered..."
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstrates a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?



Greetings,

There is no reference that Christ requested prayer or assistance from a Saint in Heaven for Heaven was created for Saints but Jesus had not yet prepared that place, yet he made it to heaven and God answered all his prayers.


Mt 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him

To know the Father one must know the son, not an acquaintance who “May” be in heaven.
He is risen.

John 12:49
For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


In essence we are not commanded, but do have that choice to know Christ, and if we choose to know him we also must speak and say as he was commanded, to have authority over all flesh.

Being that God had already given it to him, he gives it to as many that receives him.



John 17:2
As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.



Just think of it as a universal chain letter of servant-ship.



Loyal Gypsy



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 3:05:15 PM)

Dear lightseeker:

There is no righteousness apart from Christ, in us.

What makes us holy, righteous and redeemed is faith in Christ.

The prayers of a righteous man availeth much, because of Jesus living in that person.
However this is also true for the least and the smallest.
It is God who has given us his Sprit of power, love and self control. As a new creation, Jesus said; ask in MY name, and you shall receive.

Grace and Peace.



DeborahL -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 3:15:33 PM)

Dear heavy duty:

" So what you are saying is that praying to the Saints is wrong but talking to them isn't? I simply don't see the difference. Perhaps you could explain."

Me: Jesus on the mt was not praying to the saints. Jesus is fully God and can commune with whomever he wants. For ''he'' is the same yesterday today and forever. He is fully man and fully God. We are not.
Jesus' example is clear to whom TO pray TO , and he is sufficient for each member of his body. Each member of his body prays to him, for all needs not to another spirit being.

Only Christ is and was sinless, and found worthy. This is the gospel of God. It is all about our Savior(redeemer) and LORD for the world.

Grace and Peace



buttersandwich -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 3:21:34 PM)

When we die our spirits go to be with god. At the rapture christ will resurect our dead bodies to be joined with our spirits.



GoodME -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 3:31:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeborahL
There is no righteousness apart from Christ, in us.

What makes us holy, righteous and redeemed is faith in Christ. Isn't what makes us righteous actually the thoughts, words and actions chosen - trying to live in the example of our Savior? Isn't what makes for righteousness - righteousness? Right choices, right actions, right thoughts, right deeds, right living? I have posted before that I just don't see the disconnection here. We know righteousness as believers - the example and definition of it was Jesus. We are asked to "Do what Jesus did". I see this instruction as some sort of abstraction ("through Faith, we are righteous. Fine - righteous is what righteous does - don't you think?) I suspect I will get accused of "boasting about my works here" - but I am boasting about God's works - through me as my will cooperates with His for me.

The prayers of a righteous man availeth much, because of Jesus living in that person.
However this is also true for the least and the smallest.
It is God who has given us his Sprit of power, love and self control. As a new creation, Jesus said; ask in MY name, and you shall receive. Again - why the disconnect? If we have a person who has demonstrated the efficacy of their prayer and we use that efficacy to recognize the "standing" of that person and their lived relationship with God ("wow, God must really like what they did - bestowing His Grace on them as He did. Man - I would like to have that person in my corner"). The question you beg is - does God give you everything you ask for? If no - why not? If yes - then would you ask him for something for me? The first questions the believer's Faith and their relationship with God - the second affirms it - by witness of another believer. The accusation that this is "unscriptural" doesn't invalidate the basis of either question - either you are effective or you aren't (noting that there may be varying degrees here). If you are - would you be so kind as to help me out? That's what we are talking about here.



1lightseeker -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 3:35:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle


quote:

So all Christians are clothed with Christ's righteousness forever, and there is none who are closer to Him relationally, or know Him better than anyone else?
There are levels of maturity. Are you trying to say that the prayers of little children are heard less over the prayers of older, more mature Saints? I don't think so.


Quite the contrary, Mt 18:3 - unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

quote:

The Orthodox don't think so. We believe the more obedient you are, the closer you are to Him, and the better the communication.
Sounds like boasting of your works.

I don't see how you read that I'm boasing of my works in there. I wasn't talking about my righteousness, but the Saints'. From your line of reasoning, I bet you have a problem with the whole concept of canonized saints in general. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." There is a process of sanctification. Do you not see a benefit in becoming more obedient/sanctified? The most effective Christians (the Saints) have actual obedience to show for their faith.

quote:

God is omniscient and can hear anyone's prayer. So why do we ask fellow Christians to pray for us if He can hear us by ourselves?

God says to lift your burdens one to another and be fervent in prayer. Praying for other's needs above our own needs teaches us to be humble. Praying together teaches unity. Praying to Saints to get your prayers heard better than anyone else's prayers sounds like a man's idea of how things should work...not God's.
Humility and unity are two benefits, but does it actually accomplish anything for the other person? Don't we ask others to pray for us because we believe it will help our situation? Like when we ask others to pray for us to get well when we're sick, and then we get well, we thank those who "lifted us up in prayer", and believe their prayers helped us get well. We do believe praying to Saints is beneficial. But they and we (ideally) are praying for everyone else as well.



sadiebelle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 6:03:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Don't we ask others to pray for us because we believe it will help our situation? Like when we ask others to pray for us to get well when we're sick, and then we get well, we thank those who "lifted us up in prayer", and believe their prayers helped us get well. We do believe praying to Saints is beneficial. But they and we (ideally) are praying for everyone else as well.

No, we don't ask for others to pray for us because we think it will help our situation. If one person prays for a need, it is not given any less attention than a prayer by one thousand people. 10 thousand people could pray for something that goes against God's will vs. one person that prayes in accordance to God's will. Who will be answered?



GoodME -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 6:18:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
No, we don't ask for others to pray for us because we think it will help our situation. If one person prays for a need, it is not given any less attention than a prayer by one thousand people. 10 thousand people could pray for something that goes against God's will vs. one person that prayes in accordance to God's will. Who will be answered?

How about an example - per my previous post?

If one was so inclined to serve the poor in the streets of India - that might take some effort and resources. The more resources that could be garnered, the more hearts that could be swayed, the better example that could be set - the more resources could then be diverted to the aim of serving the poor.

So having said that - how many people in India did Mother Teresa help? And how many times do you suppose that the gift from the philanthropic industrialist who's heart was touched by God, led to the expansion of this missionary effort? How many people were led to Christ by this assistance and its example?

How much prayer so you think was supplied by Mother Teresa? How effective was it?

How effective might her prayers for the charity of people in the world to remember and assist those less fortunate be?

I continue to lack the comprehension that the accomplishments of someone such as this were simply under their own personal horsepower. They weren't - God was assisting with His grace at the prayerful request of the the Faithful working in this mission effort, including Mother Teresa. Perhaps more effectively than at my request in my prayers.

If this all happened due to personal merit - then where is the recognition that this person used that Grace to live in charity and service, rather than for personal gain? Movie stars seem to be "touched" as well - but how many times do we watch VH1 to see how much "stuff" they have? How many jet boats does P. Diddy need in order to water ski?

Here is a woman that marshalled 10 times the number of resources that P. Diddy has - and gave it all away to love and serve the poor.

How is that not "Gracious"?



sadiebelle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 6:30:14 PM)

GoodMe,
I understand all that logically. However, for it to ring true in my soul, for me to actually feel the Holy Spirit give an amen to this doctrine, I HAVE to see some form of it in Scripture. I just can't make a foundation out of sand. I don't see where the Lord suggests praying to Saints in heaven in order to have a more effective prayer.



Augustine_Was_Calvinist -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (4/25/2005 9:49:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodME

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?

Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.

To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.


While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.

Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).

Which includes the following:

Ephesians 1

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.



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