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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/25/2005 10:45:16 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?
Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.
To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).
Which includes the following:
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Dear Augustine,
Calvin was a faulty Augustinian.
I would suggest that the workings of prayer are not understood. They need not be understood to be effective. In Luke, Chapter 18, Christ infers an comparison between His Father and a dishonest judge. Moral of the story, don't give up.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:01:11 AM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Don't we ask others to pray for us because we believe it will help our situation? Like when we ask others to pray for us to get well when we're sick, and then we get well, we thank those who "lifted us up in prayer", and believe their prayers helped us get well. We do believe praying to Saints is beneficial. But they and we (ideally) are praying for everyone else as well.
No, we don't ask for others to pray for us because we think it will help our situation. If one person prays for a need, it is not given any less attention than a prayer by one thousand people. 10 thousand people could pray for something that goes against God's will vs. one person that prayes in accordance to God's will. Who will be answered?
Yes God can hear one prayer or one thousand. But if as you say one thousand people are praying, but in God's will, then we can't throw any of them out and say their prayer doesn't matter or didn't accomplish anything.
The Orthodox teach that salvation is not obtained alone. The intercession of the Saints is necessary. Not just their current prayers, but their accomplishments in preserving and growing the faith in the world through times past. We depend on Sts Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to bring us the Gospels, as well as the church who preserved and canonized them. Of course this is all possible by the grace of God.
Mary has the title Theotokos, which means God bearer. We depend on people to bring us Jesus, like our parents if we were raised in a Christian home, and other people who have intervened in our lives. It is not wrong to show gratitude to these people who have helped us along our way. In our services we extol the accomplishments of the Saints as well as ask for their continued prayers.
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:55:18 AM
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Heavyduty
Posts: 18
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear heavy duty:
" So what you are saying is that praying to the Saints is wrong but talking to them isn't? I simply don't see the difference. Perhaps you could explain."
Me: Jesus on the mt was not praying to the saints. Jesus is fully God and can commune with whomever he wants. For ''he'' is the same yesterday today and forever. He is fully man and fully God. We are not.
Jesus' example is clear to whom TO pray TO , and he is sufficient for each member of his body. Each member of his body prays to him, for all needs not to another spirit being.
Only Christ is and was sinless, and found worthy. This is the gospel of God. It is all about our Savior(redeemer) and LORD for the world.
Grace and Peace
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Perhaps I shouldn't talk to anyone unless they are in front of me because that would be considered "praying".
Is it the difference between communicating with someone who is alive versus dead? We know the Saints are alive with Christ. This is not a speculation. We do not talk to those who are dead and are not with Christ. It is not an obligation, but it also does not deserve condemnation. Who are you to judge? Asking a departed Saint for prayer is not a substitute for asking Jesus, neither is asking your pastor or priest for prayer a substitute for coming directly to God and yet the scriptures encourage us to go to others for prayer. This is intercessory prayer, asking others to pray for you. The method of communication is simply secondary whether it be by spirit or by electrons.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 11:35:07 AM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
_____________________________
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:08:54 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
I have posted before my belief that prayer is for us much more than it is for God (why do we need to ask an omnibenevolent, omniscient God for anything - He already knows what we need and loves us enough to supply it). So to dodge the pot-hole you have put in the road, I respond as follows:
- If reflection on the example of a particular Saint causes the kind of self-examination that either brings about a real change of heart or that strengthens and steadies the believer in a time of trial or that persuades the believer to more fervantly live the example of Christ in their life, then I am defining that prayer and reflection in the name and on the name of that Saint to be "efficacious".
Surely it is "Scriptural" to think that we might model behaviors of other Christians in specific situations and circumstances, because those Saints model what Christ would have dome - had He been in that situation. When looking at the Faith and choices of a Saint at martyrdom, for example - choosing to "go down with the ship" - we can see the example of perseverence and faith that is specific to we believers and is "closer" to us because this behavior (a subset of Christ's choices in one moment or instance) were an example of the possibilites of flawed souls, just like us.
I sometimes believe the problem is similar to what I read in another thread about Calvinism - many think they know what this practice is all about, based on what they have heard about it, rather than based on trying to work it into their Faith practice and actually give it a whirl.
I find it hard to believe that Jesus would look at the perseverence of St. Thomas More against the crown of England for the cause of "right" - until his own death - and say "Don't pay any attention to that. That is not how a Christian should act".
On the contrary, I think it fair game to reflect on these examples and to request the Grace gifted to these folks in their time of need that we may persevere in our walk of Faith - until our death. For in reflecting on and asking for that Grace, we might just receive it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:08:36 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
In a nutshell, this is the fundamental difference between the Protestant and orthodox (lower case because I'm including the CC and EOC agreed on beliefs) theology of salvation, IMO. Any C's, O's or P's disagree?
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:27:40 PM
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist
Posts: 15
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?
Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.
To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).
Which includes the following:
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Dear Augustine,
Calvin was a faulty Augustinian.
I would suggest that the workings of prayer are not understood. They need not be understood to be effective. In Luke, Chapter 18, Christ infers an comparison between His Father and a dishonest judge. Moral of the story, don't give up.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
I've read the "rules" of this forum, and since you feel entitled to caste such a dispersion on Jean Chauvin, while I am prohibited from saying the Pope is the antichrist, then there either must be a stacked deck here or you have no regard for the forum rules.
Having said that, the Luke 18 passage does not denote the judge being "dishonest". the judge is portrayed as seeming to be indifferent to the woman's pleas in the beginning. Secondly, the woman's persistence, in the light of the entirety of Scripture on prayer, such as praying to the "Father" as Jesus said, not to other saints, and Jesus's exhortation that whatever was prayed, being in the Will of God, would be done, was for her benefit in learning persistence in seeking out God's Will through prayer, not so she could be granted any request as if asking from a genie in a bottle.
I agree that the workings of prayer are terribly misunderstood. Most understand prayer to be a means of petitioning God to do our bidding, when in reality it's the other way around. God is not a man that He should change His Mind.
Many may say, "Prayer changes things.", which is a false saying. Prayer changes us, not changes things. God is not reactionary.
_____________________________
"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
- George Whitefield
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:09:59 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
In a nutshell, this is the fundamental difference between the Protestant and orthodox (lower case because I'm including the CC and EOC agreed on beliefs) theology of salvation, IMO. Any C's, O's or P's disagree?
What is the fundamental difference? Can you please elaborate rather than talking over my head? 
Sorry, it's hard to know how to express these things sometimes. I was looking for a quote that Unworthyseraphim shared with me a while back on CW about salvation not being accomplished by ourselves, but I can't find it. This site discusses the Saints in detail. I haven't read all the info but here's some exerpts.
"IN HONORING THE SAINTS we celebrate God's accomplished work of salvation. Archbishop Paul of Finland writes, “In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them, the goal towards which the members of the Church militant are still pressing on (Phil. 3:12,14).” Thus, by remembering the saints we celebrate what the Holy Spirit has done in their lives.
The saints show us what a glorious destiny we have in God. Through the glorious example of their lives, they point the way to our becoming “partakers of divine nature.”
As members of the Body of Christ, the Church, saints are the hands of God by which He accomplishes His work in the world today. Even after their deaths they perform works of love as intercessors in heaven who pray for us."
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm#n1
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:30:29 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Sorry, it's hard to know how to express these things sometimes. I was looking for a quote that Unworthyseraphim shared with me a while back on CW about salvation not being accomplished by ourselves, but I can't find it. This site discusses the Saints in detail. I haven't read all the info but here's some exerpts.
"IN HONORING THE SAINTS we celebrate God's accomplished work of salvation. Archbishop Paul of Finland writes, “In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them, the goal towards which the members of the Church militant are still pressing on (Phil. 3:12,14).” Thus, by remembering the saints we celebrate what the Holy Spirit has done in their lives.
The saints show us what a glorious destiny we have in God. Through the glorious example of their lives, they point the way to our becoming “partakers of divine nature.”
As members of the Body of Christ, the Church, saints are the hands of God by which He accomplishes His work in the world today. Even after their deaths they perform works of love as intercessors in heaven who pray for us."
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm#n1
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:54:50 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that the saints have any influence on our salvation, nor does it teach that they can answer prayers. All it teaches is that we can ask them to pray for us and that God will answer their prayers, just as He answers the prayers of Christians on earth. Nobody is forced to ask the saints to pray for them and you can be a Catholic in 100% with what the Church teaches and not partake in this religious practice. What you can't do though is deny the apostle's creed by saying that you don't believe in "the communion of saints."
If you don't want to accept this doctrine, that is fine, nobody is making you ask for the saint's intercession. But, don't make it sound like Catholics believe things about the saints when they don't. I think it is only fair that we let the Catholics and Orthodox state what they believe instead of presuming that we know how they view their faith.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:04:21 PM
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist
Posts: 15
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
I have posted before my belief that prayer is for us much more than it is for God (why do we need to ask an omnibenevolent, omniscient God for anything - He already knows what we need and loves us enough to supply it). So to dodge the pot-hole you have put in the road, I respond as follows:
- If reflection on the example of a particular Saint causes the kind of self-examination that either brings about a real change of heart or that strengthens and steadies the believer in a time of trial or that persuades the believer to more fervantly live the example of Christ in their life, then I am defining that prayer and reflection in the name and on the name of that Saint to be "efficacious".
Reflection on and drawing inspiration from saints who have preceded us is not the same as praying "to" that saint, now is it?
I reflect on and draw much inspiration from, especially the saints in the early church, notably, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Athanasius, James the Just, James Camelknees, Perpetua and many others that I wish my Protestant brethren would learn from, but not as a means of communication with them, but to draw inspiration, assurance and knowledge from their fervent lives in Christ.
"Efficacius" in what way? If you are talking about the value rendered by their inspiring lives in Christ for setting a standard for us to emilate, then yes, I would agree.
quote:
Surely it is "Scriptural" to think that we might model behaviors of other Christians in specific situations and circumstances, because those Saints model what Christ would have dome - had He been in that situation. When looking at the Faith and choices of a Saint at martyrdom, for example - choosing to "go down with the ship" - we can see the example of perseverence and faith that is specific to we believers and is "closer" to us because this behavior (a subset of Christ's choices in one moment or instance) were an example of the possibilites of flawed souls, just like us.
I agree without hestitation.
quote:
I sometimes believe the problem is similar to what I read in another thread about Calvinism - many think they know what this practice is all about, based on what they have heard about it, rather than based on trying to work it into their Faith practice and actually give it a whirl.
As I said, I personally don't have a problem with the practice of asking saints who have preceeded us into glory for intercessory prayer, though I find no real scriptural support for it, neither would I say it is a practice outside of the pale of orthodoxy, and that is based on having studied the practice from Roman Catholic sources and friends. Terminology sometimes can be a tough bridge to cross, as you well know. That sometimes keeps people from understanding in earnest.
quote:
I find it hard to believe that Jesus would look at the perseverence of St. Thomas More against the crown of England for the cause of "right" - until his own death - and say "Don't pay any attention to that. That is not how a Christian should act".
On the contrary, I think it fair game to reflect on these examples and to request the Grace gifted to these folks in their time of need that we may persevere in our walk of Faith - until our death. For in reflecting on and asking for that Grace, we might just receive it.
I agree there too. I also petition God for the grace, patience, perseverance, love, mercy, wisdom, discernment and other qualities found in other saints.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:50:03 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear Goodme:
You: Isn't what makes us righteous actually the thoughts, words and actions chosen - trying to live in the example of our Savior?
Me: Choosing and striving to live, because of his grace. Never my own righteousness. I have none without my living Savior in me:
Imo-the word teaches us a different will at work in us. Paul said that is the allsurpassing power of God in us. And that Grace has made him into what he is.
The word says that we have been granted on behalf of Christ to believe in him and to be sanctified.
Without Christ made alive in me-as a new creation born again ''by God'', -I have no righteousness of Christ 'who' will wash and renew me.
We are God's workmanship created ''in Christ '' to do the good works that he had prepared in advance. If a man lives by the truth it is plan to see that it has been done through God.
You: Isn't what makes for righteousness - righteousness? Right choices, right actions, right thoughts, right deeds, right living? I have posted before that I just don't see the disconnection here. We know righteousness as believers - the example and definition of it was Jesus. We are asked to "Do what Jesus did".
Me: We do, because we live not for ourselves. 'We have died' and our life is hidden in him.
We are no longer living for ourselves as a new creation in him.
It is much deeper than ''me''-it is God who has reconciled me by Jesus death and resurrection and life.
"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."
As a 'new creation in Christ', it is him in me who will be the victor and the overcomer.
You: I see this instruction as some sort of abstraction ("through Faith, we are righteous. Fine - righteous is what righteous does - don't you think?) I suspect I will get accused of "boasting about my works here" - but I am boasting about God's works - through me as my will cooperates with His for me.
Me: Without God 'in us'-we have no will that has died to ourselves, so that we can cooperate. The gift of faith, has given us this grace, in which we now stand, and are justified.
You: If we have a person who has demonstrated the efficacy of their prayer and we use that efficacy to recognize the "standing" of that person and their lived relationship with God ("wow, God must really like what they did - bestowing His Grace on them as He did. Man - I would like to have that person in my corner").
Me: Bless you. Imo-Christ in each of us is the wow. And completely efficacious for us. We trust "him".
You: The question you beg is - does God give you everything you ask for?
ME: Nope :) that is not the question I beg-
God will answer our prayers in Christ's name. All of them.
It is us, who will come to understand, by faith that God knows what is best for us, and what is his will.
You: If no - why not? If yes - then would you ask him for something for me? The first questions the believer's Faith and their relationship with God - the second affirms it - by witness of another believer.
Me: -God answers all prayer-even when we think he doens't..It is our paradyme: shifting to his perceptions, for us, to change and conform to his will. All things work for ''the good'' for those that love him.
- The fellowship we have as the body is to trust God for the body. In him, his promises for us never fail.
The witness is that we have shared one faith, and ARE united to one Holy Spirit TO whom we have prayed TO.
Again-the affirmation shifts from ourselves and what we thought we needed to understand his will.
God will never fail us. "For there are three that testify the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three are in agreement."
You: The accusation that this is "unscriptural" doesn't invalidate the basis of either question - either you are effective or you aren't (noting that there may be varying degrees here).
Me: Bless you. Jesus did not teach us in his word to pray TO another being than each one of his children like himself: TO God.
Faith in Christ is what is effective in each of us. I am not effective but I believe, by faith that he completely IS. Always will be.
Prayer TO God expresses my faith that he is.
You: If you are - would you be so kind as to help me out? That's what we are talking about here.
Me: I am not effective-God is. "You are not your own; you were bought at a price"
"For just a through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:57:03 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
They do have a direct influence in our salvation in that they preserved the faith through the millenia by the grace of God. Doesn't the person who shared Jesus and the Bible with you have a vital role in your salvation? We (as believers in free will) believe that Mary's "may it be done unto me according to your word" to Gabriel was an essential part in Jesus becoming man.
As far as praying to them, this is from the same site:
quote:
The Communion of Saints
ALTHOUGH SAINTS ARE NOT substitutes for Christ, Orthodox Christians believe firmly in the communion of saints. By this we mean that the Church Triumphant in heaven is not insensitive to the needs and sufferings of the Church Militant on earth. The two churches remain connected through the bond of love which is expressed through prayer. The communion of saints is a communion of never-ending prayer.
Thus, besides our Church Family on earth, we belong to a larger family of God, which includes those who have gone before us. We are united with those in heaven. We call this the Communion of Saints, that is, the union of all who share in the life of Christ, whether on earth or in the other world.
Commenting on this, Fr. Kallistos Ware writes: “In God and in His Church there is no division between the living and the departed, but all are one in the love of the Father. Whether we are alive or whether we are dead, as members of the Church we still belong to the same family, and still have a duty to bear one another's burdens. Therefore just as Orthodox Christians here on earth pray for one another and ask for one another's prayers, so they pray for the faithful departed and ask the faithful departed to pray for them. Death cannot sever the bond of mutual love which links the members of the Church together.”
Fr. John of Kronstadt writes on the communion of saints: “We live together with them (the Saints in heaven), in the house of the Heavenly Father, only in different parts of it. We live in the earthly, they in the heavenly half; but we can converse with them, and they with us.”
How effectively the Communion of Saints is expressed on the walls of Orthodox Churches where the angels, prophets, apostles, martyrs and saints are all gathered together with the worshippers around the figure of the All-Ruling Christ in the dome. The entire Church, that in heaven and that on earth, converses with each other and lifts its heart in praise to God.
Sergius Bolshakoff caught this when he visited the Monastery of Dionysiou on Mt. Athos. He writes: “The church had its own air of mystery. A few red lamps burned before the golden iconostasis and the icons on the stand. Hieratic saints solemly looked down from the blue walls. It seemed as though they, too, had come to assist at the Liturgy, representing the church triumphant.”
Noting the small congregation in church one Sunday morning, a cynic said to the priest, “Not many in church this morning, Father. Not many at all.” The old priest replied, “You are wrong, my son. There were thousands at church this morning. Thousands and thousands and tens of thousands.” For, the priest had just read in the prayers of the liturgy: “Therefore with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven we laud and magnify thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee . It was the Communion of Saints in action!
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 7:00:22 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear heavyduty:
You:
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
Me; Jesus was not praying to the OT saints. When Crhist prayed in the word-he prayed to God. And this is what he taught his apostles in the word.
Prayer is communing with God. We are to pray unceasingly in our spirit to his.
Prayer is our complete expression of 'whom' we trust and in purity' who' will intercede mediate and advocate for us. Who will hear us, and never forsake us. Who will remain with us and be our Savior Lord.
Prayer contains worshsip. praise, all honor glory and power to God-that God will meet our request when we ask in him name. Jesus said ask in my name-it will be given to you.
You: If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Me: Jesus prayed To God. NO one else. AS the Incarnate he demonsrtated for us what we should also do. The gospel of God is about God and then his relationship with man, by grace. There is no other gospel of good news that saves us. Simply and purely: Jesus for mankind.
You: Perhaps I shouldn't talk to anyone unless they are in front of me because that would be considered "praying".
Me: Bless you. There is a huge difference to pray for someone that needs help, TO praying TO another being than God.
You: Is it the difference between communicating with someone who is alive versus dead? We know the Saints are alive with Christ. This is not a speculation. We do not talk to those who are dead and are not with Christ. It is not an obligation, but it also does not deserve condemnation. Who are you to judge? Asking a departed Saint for prayer is not a substitute for asking Jesus, neither is asking your pastor or priest for prayer a substitute for coming directly to God and yet the scriptures encourage us to go to others for prayer. This is intercessory prayer, asking others to pray for you. The method of communication is simply secondary whether it be by spirit or by electrons
Me: Bless you.
The word says that there is only one peacemaker between all men and God. His name is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. He is unlimited and unfathomable for everthing his body and the world need.
Let me be clear once again-TO pray TO ''another being'' than only TO God for the body of Christ, and even the world is a false faith, and not the good news of Jesus Christ.
"And we are in him who is true --- even in his son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2005 9:34:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear heavyduty:
You:
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
Me; Jesus was not praying to the OT saints. When Crhist prayed in the word-he prayed to God. And this is what he taught his apostles in the word.
Prayer is communing with God. We are to pray unceasingly in our spirit to his.
Prayer is our complete expression of 'whom' we trust and in purity' who' will intercede mediate and advocate for us. Who will hear us, and never forsake us. Who will remain with us and be our Savior Lord.
Prayer contains worshsip. praise, all honor glory and power to God-that God will meet our request when we ask in him name. Jesus said ask in my name-it will be given to you.
You: If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Me: Jesus prayed To God. NO one else. AS the Incarnate he demonsrtated for us what we should also do. The gospel of God is about God and then his relationship with man, by grace. There is no other gospel of good news that saves us. Simply and purely: Jesus for mankind.
You: Perhaps I shouldn't talk to anyone unless they are in front of me because that would be considered "praying".
Me: Bless you. There is a huge difference to pray for someone that needs help, TO praying TO another being than God.
You: Is it the difference between communicating with someone who is alive versus dead? We know the Saints are alive with Christ. This is not a speculation. We do not talk to those who are dead and are not with Christ. It is not an obligation, but it also does not deserve condemnation. Who are you to judge? Asking a departed Saint for prayer is not a substitute for asking Jesus, neither is asking your pastor or priest for prayer a substitute for coming directly to God and yet the scriptures encourage us to go to others for prayer. This is intercessory prayer, asking others to pray for you. The method of communication is simply secondary whether it be by spirit or by electrons
Me: Bless you.
The word says that there is only one peacemaker between all men and God. His name is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. He is unlimited and unfathomable for everthing his body and the world need.
Let me be clear once again-TO pray TO ''another being'' than only TO God for the body of Christ, and even the world is a false faith, and not the good news of Jesus Christ.
"And we are in him who is true --- even in his son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
Grace and Peace
Greetings,
May I Add, in agreement,
In Matt 17:1-7 there was no conversing between Moses and Elijah the disciples for it was not until Jesus was transfigured is when they appeared or gave the appearance of talking with him.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
As it appeared to them, Jesus was talking, but the disciples did not hear conversation nor is it mentioned Moses or Elijah acknowledged the disciples, however what was heard is mentioned in verse 5 and 6.
While Peter was speaking a voice was heard.
The common medium here is Jesus, for he was transfigured before the appearance of Moses and Elijah.
Peter said let us make 3 tabernacles or dwelling places for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus but the revelation of the making of the 3 tabernacles came at the end of verse 5
"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. “Hear Him!"
The transfiguration is a picture of the “3” disciples whom Jesus led to the mountain.
Peter, James and John, whom Jesus “led” to that mountain. (The 3 Tabernacles)
They were not to “speak of the vision”, as mentioned in Matt 17:9 until the Son of Man is risen from the dead or in other words was fulfilled.
Once Jesus was raised from the dead or born again then one can speak of the vision as one becomes a tabernacle or temple of the living God.
"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Hear Him!"
I don’t see where in this revelation one can come up with the belief and claim verification of Praying or communication with the dead?
IMHO
Loyal Gypsy
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2005 10:06:23 PM
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Heavyduty
Posts: 18
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
I don’t see where in this revelation one can come up with the belief and claim verification of Praying or communication with the dead?
They aren't dead. How many times must this be explained. Jesus spoke with them the apostles saw it. It is not sin. You think we "pray" to the departed saints. This leaves 2 options 1) your view of prayer is limited to your (incorrect) finite understanding of it and/or 2) its not "prayer" anymore than talking on the phone is prayer.
The diciples weren't to speak of the occurance because Jesus hadn't been sacrificed and resurrected. We now live under the new covenant and the experience can be shared freely. There is no more death for those who are in Christ. The rules have changed (or perhaps more correctly: been fufilled). Your box needs some big holes I think.
< Message edited by Heavyduty -- 4/27/2005 10:36:22 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2005 9:25:28 AM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear LG:
May I add to give some clarification.
"I don’t see where in this revelation one can come up with the belief and claim verification of Praying or communication with the dead?"
I trust, that you mean dead to the physical natural earthly existence. Having clothed themsleves from mortal to immortality and the perishable with the imperishable in Christ:
"What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natrual body, there is also a spiritual body."
"As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are in heaven."
However, imho, that does not mean that the spritual bodies in heaven are the Holy Spirit of God, whom lives, testifes and intercedes for us. Jesus : "'My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.'"
And Paul confirms the testimony of 'God' in our hearts:
"Now to him who is able to do
immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine,
according to his power that is at work within us,
to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus
throughout all generations, for ever and ever!"
Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/28/2005 12:22:47 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
quote:
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
They do have a direct influence in our salvation in that they preserved the faith through the millenia by the grace of God. Doesn't the person who shared Jesus and the Bible with you have a vital role in your salvation? We (as believers in free will) believe that Mary's "may it be done unto me according to your word" to Gabriel was an essential part in Jesus becoming man.
Do me a favor and define "vital role". It's been my experience and my understanding of Scriptures that we, as representitives of Christ, are sewing seeds. It is the Holy Spirit and the timing of the Lord that determines salvation.
The person that shared the gospel with me the very first time didn't influence my salvation...
...I don't even remember who they are. They planted a seed, same as the next person and the next.
It took God doing a work in MY heart that caused a repentance. So, again, just define "vital role", please.
Thanks.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/29/2005 7:39:58 PM
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singinbeauty
Posts: 52
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Tacoma, Washington
Status: offline
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Here is my issue with this issue...
Mary and these saints are not, what's the word, omnicient or omnipresent like God. (I think I got those words right) So how can they here all of our prayers at once? My view on Mary and the saints is that they were ordinary people just like us who were used in wonderful ways to spread God's love. I have a feeling that Mary is relaxing in Heaven and can't even hear what we are saying because SHE IS NOT GOD. Either that or she is constantly asking God why people won't just leave her alone and ask Him directly about their issues. After a couple of thousand years it probably is getting quite annoying. And don't even get me started on the 'view' that she is the Queen of Heaven. What about Abraham who is the father of the Israelites? Or Moses who followed God in so many ways? Why don't the catholics ever pray to them?
_____________________________
You know that saying "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger"? That's crazy. "Whatever" might not kill you but it's God that makes you stronger!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/30/2005 11:17:12 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavyduty
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
I don’t see where in this revelation one can come up with the belief and claim verification of Praying or communication with the dead?
They aren't dead. How many times must this be explained. Jesus spoke with them the apostles saw it. It is not sin. You think we "pray" to the departed saints. This leaves 2 options 1) your view of prayer is limited to your (incorrect) finite understanding of it and/or 2) its not "prayer" anymore than talking on the phone is prayer.
The disciples weren't to speak of the occurrence because Jesus hadn't been sacrificed and resurrected. We now live under the new covenant and the experience can be shared freely. There is no more death for those who are in Christ. The rules have changed (or perhaps more correctly: been fulfilled). Your box needs some big holes I think.
Greetings,
Let’s use option # 3. I am blessed and highly favored, Jesus sticks closer to me than a brother.
Let’s just say we go back a long way.
[q] They aren't dead. How many times must this be explained[/q]
Matt 17 has nothing to do whether or not they are alive or dead, the number 3 means witness, when we have witness we receive revelation, there are at least 3 scriptures that witness each to itself.
Matt 17, Jesus transfigures (or ascends) to heaven becoming 3 the number in heaven so as through Jesus we now have 3 as witness in heaven.
The 3 disciples receive revelation from God or an Angel of God saying “This is my beloved Son……Hear Him”
Thus we have a comparison to what is mentioned in the Lords Prayer “On earth as it is in heaven.
3 in heaven and 3 on earth in Matt 17 = revelation.
[q]The rules have changed (or perhaps more correctly: been fulfilled)[/q]
I do not understand how you figure the rules have changed?
To start the New Testament (the Better promises) did not begin until the testator died.
As mentioned in Matt 12:36-37 as well as in the fullness of the gospel is all Old Testament, or Christ would have had nothing to fulfill (Corner Stone)
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
According to Gal 2:20 we are still “in the flesh” the rules therefore that apply to the flesh are still the same. The promises however are better part in Christ.
The rules have not changed for if they did we would not need Christ.
[q]This leaves 2 options 1) your view of prayer is limited to your (incorrect) finite understanding of it and/or 2) its not "prayer" anymore than talking on the phone is prayer.[/q]
First of all in context with Matt 12:36 “talking is just as much a word as praying”
For example, lets say one puts up a lead coated tent and then commits acts of Adultery under that tent thinking that God cant see through the lead.
Does this mean that God could not still see what was going on? What rules have changed?
Matt 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
[q] Jesus spoke with them the apostles saw it. It is not sin. You think we "pray" to the departed saints.[/q]
First of all Jesus was not in his earthly body at the Mount of transfiguration with Christ Moses and Elijah would not have had a place in the vision, or what appeared to the disciples to be talking, was in a vision.
[q] It is not sin. You think we "pray" to the departed saints [/q]
I say nothing, but in the same measure, which is the greater sin? to say that they don’t, when they do?
I can only testify of what I seen and what I know.
I have seen hundreds of posts of prayers and the admittance thereof of those who pray, talk, ask, Mary for instance and \ or other patron Saints to assist in moving the hand of our Father.
First, Christ commanded the disciples not to tell of the vision before the Son of Man is risen from the dead for reasons as mentioned in Matt 12:37. “By your words you will be condemned” to speak a word out of season concerning revelation or a vision and otherwise offer no proof, by their “words” Jesus is simply commanding them in (Verse 9) to shut up, in the mean time!
I believe this wisdom can found in Proverbs.
Remember in verse 8 when they lifted their eyes the saw no one but Jesus only!
He is a prophetic Key…..St John alluded to the witness in the transfiguration in Re 1:10
I was “in the Spirit” on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
The transfiguration and Rev 1:10 and 4:2 had one common denominator, St John.
Perhaps John had the “recognition” (Moses and Elijah) because of the Mount of Transfiguration to know when he was “in the Spirit” when he wrote the Book of Revelation.
Jesus led them up, and as “they came down” then a command was issued. Verse 9
In verse 9 “Now when they came down from the Mountain”
All that happen on the mountain happened “in the Spirit.”
And since the Spirit or the (helper) had not yet come, Jesus commanded them to tell no one of the vision.
[q] They aren't dead. How many times must this be explained[/q]
No other (heavenly) person whom John witnessed responded to John while John was “in the Spirit” nor did they speak to him, nor him to them, except be it an Angel of God or Christ himself.
This is seen at both the transfiguration and again mentioned while he was in the Spirit and the accounts thereof, in Rev 1:10 Rev 4:2
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/30/2005 11:22:01 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/30/2005 11:39:39 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?
Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.
To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).
Which includes the following:
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Dear Augustine,
Calvin was a faulty Augustinian.
I would suggest that the workings of prayer are not understood. They need not be understood to be effective. In Luke, Chapter 18, Christ infers an comparison between His Father and a dishonest judge. Moral of the story, don't give up.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
I've read the "rules" of this forum, and since you feel entitled to caste such a dispersion on Jean Chauvin, while I am prohibited from saying the Pope is the antichrist, then there either must be a stacked deck here or you have no regard for the forum rules.
Having said that, the Luke 18 passage does not denote the judge being "dishonest". the judge is portrayed as seeming to be indifferent to the woman's pleas in the beginning. Secondly, the woman's persistence, in the light of the entirety of Scripture on prayer, such as praying to the "Father" as Jesus said, not to other saints, and Jesus's exhortation that whatever was prayed, being in the Will of God, would be done, was for her benefit in learning persistence in seeking out God's Will through prayer, not so she could be granted any request as if asking from a genie in a bottle.
I agree that the workings of prayer are terribly misunderstood. Most understand prayer to be a means of petitioning God to do our bidding, when in reality it's the other way around. God is not a man that He should change His Mind.
Many may say, "Prayer changes things.", which is a false saying. Prayer changes us, not changes things. God is not reactionary.
Dear AwaC,
It's "cast aspersions." Dispersion is what happened to the Jewish people.
Augustine lived way before Calvin, I hope I am not being "chauvinist" by pointing that out.
I have not called Calvin the Antichrist. If you wish you can post on the "Catholic Church in Prophecy" thread and call the pope the Antichrist to your heart's content.
God is not reactionary. He answers prayers.
On the Feast of St. Gerard Miles
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/1/2005 3:17:55 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
Do me a favor and define "vital role". It's been my experience and my understanding of Scriptures that we, as representitives of Christ, are sewing seeds. It is the Holy Spirit and the timing of the Lord that determines salvation.
The person that shared the gospel with me the very first time didn't influence my salvation...
...I don't even remember who they are. They planted a seed, same as the next person and the next.
It took God doing a work in MY heart that caused a repentance. So, again, just define "vital role", please.
Thanks.
The seed sower(s) has a vital role in the development of the plant. But God made the sower, and God made the seed, and God made the ground, rain, etc. Still, the sower in humble obedience is entrusted to spread the seed(Word) while on the earth, and in his unity with God, aids the spreading by his prayerful intercessions. I hope that makes sense. Our salvation is God's plan, as is the contribution of the Saints God's plan. We do not believe that it is taking anything away from God's Sovereignty to acknowledge the role of His Saints. A father is not offended when his child is commended for her obedience or called upon to help, though his influence cannot be separated from it, if one looks beyond immediate appearances.
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2005 3:56:23 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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S. Benedict
quote:
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4). The verse you use here says nothing whatsoever about angels praying for people on earth. The prayers are of the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; these are the prayers of the souls of those who are in heaven. Nothing to do with anyone on earth.
quote:
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. First I don't believe there is any evidence that the twenty-four elders are the leaders of the people of God in heaven. Nor is it a simple fact that the prayer offered are from the people on earth. Not even a hint of such a thing. Verse 9 goes on to say that they - the four beasts and the twenty-four elders sung a new song...they were praying to Christ saying "thou are worthy" to take the book and open the seals.
quote:
Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20). I don't see any evidence that Moses was the mediator...the mediator spoken of in Gal was the law of God. As for proof that there is only one mediator ever, we go to 1Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ."
quote:
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. Yes, we are to pray for ourselves, our family and friends, for our leaders. In fact the Bible tells to "pray without ceasing"; but it never tells us to pray to anyone who is dead. In fact when the apostles asked Christ "how should we pray", He told them to pray this way "Our Father who art in heaven..." Since Jesus declared such, it becomes a command for us to follow. We pray to our heavenly Father in the name of Jesus. That's it, no other formula.
quote:
A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows. Since the only information we have of heaven is from the Bible, it would be a good idea to keep in mind what it does have to say about it. We find the answer in Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." This indicates that those in heaven are not concerned or saddened about earthly matters. And why should they be when they are in the highest bliss in the presence of the Lord Jesus.
quote:
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us. There is, of course, nothing wrong with asking for prayers from someone; but when they do pray they should be praying to God, no one else, since the Bible will not allow for it.
quote:
It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing. Well, I certainly don't agree with that! It is the Bible that tells us how and to whom we should pray... to God alone.
kelman
< Message edited by kelman -- 5/2/2005 4:06:23 AM >
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2005 12:55:11 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
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A quick comment and a question.
I read your comments very very closely looking for something more than an opinion - one to which you are, of course, entitled. I saw no studied substance to the objections you made other than your own reasoning. It might be very good reasoning, but it is hardly the basis for one to negate an established point of doctrine.
Second, it is historical fact that the emergent (early church) considered itself a community of believers which was not constrained by time or space. We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ.
These were contemporaneous with the establishment of the Churches, preaching of the Gospel, and the teaching of disciples by the Apostles themselves. Remember, too, that those in charge of these Churches had been approved, in the same manner as Timothy, to guard the faith and it's practice.
Assuming, to support your view as much as possible, that this practice is unscriptural, and wrong, why is it that the Apostles, those they trained and approved, and those they trained after them each failed to denounce (in the strongest way) these practices?
The Apostles were very clear in their teaching and scripture is very clear on practices which were prevalent during the time, i.e. meats to idols, homosexuality, licentiousness, fornication - each was denounced and prohibited.
Why was the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead not admonished? Where is the explicit NT prohibition? (we can deal with your OT interpretation later)
Okay maybe more than one comment and more than one question.
In Christ,
Meep meep
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"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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