|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2005 10:11:28 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
A quick comment and a question.
I read your comments very very closely looking for something more than an opinion - one to which you are, of course, entitled. I saw no studied substance to the objections you made other than your own reasoning. It might be very good reasoning, but it is hardly the basis for one to negate an established point of doctrine.
Second, it is historical fact that the emergent (early church) considered itself a community of believers which was not constrained by time or space. We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ.
These were contemporaneous with the establishment of the Churches, preaching of the Gospel, and the teaching of disciples by the Apostles themselves. Remember, too, that those in charge of these Churches had been approved, in the same manner as Timothy, to guard the faith and it's practice.
Assuming, to support your view as much as possible, that this practice is unscriptural, and wrong, why is it that the Apostles, those they trained and approved, and those they trained after them each failed to denounce (in the strongest way) these practices?
The Apostles were very clear in their teaching and scripture is very clear on practices which were prevalent during the time, i.e. meats to idols, homosexuality, licentiousness, fornication - each was denounced and prohibited.
Why was the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead not admonished? Where is the explicit NT prohibition? (we can deal with your OT interpretation later)
Okay maybe more than one comment and more than one question.
In Christ,
Meep meep
Greetings,
Prophet
Prophet (pròf´ît) noun
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
5. Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb). Bible. The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve.
[q] The Apostles were very clear in their teaching and scripture is very clear on practices which were prevalent during the time, i.e. meats to idols, homosexuality, licentiousness, fornication - each was denounced and prohibited.
You mentioned “Second, it is historical fact that the emergent (early church) considered itself a community of believers which was not constrained by time or space. We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ.”[/q]
By the definition of Prophet we have two separate definitions Above in # 1 and again in # 3
# 1 is ordained in scripture as the anointed ones who “speaks by divine inspiration or as an interpreter”
When Satan tempted Jesus in Matt 4, Satan corrupted the interpretation, therefore as mentioned in Old Testament scripture Duet 18-9-12
9 "When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable customs of those nations. 10 No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery, 11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead.
# 3 we have a prophet who is considered a soothsayer or a predictor.
There is a major difference between a soothsayer or a predictor and one who speaks by divine inspiration or as an interpreter. One must remember in scripture Lucifer was also anointed.
In Matt 4, Satan, used predictions, Christ used divine interpretation.
The Bible says in Duet 18 verse 9 “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you” this means salvation.
When one is saved one does not do what is mentioned in Duet 18:9-12 “or inquire of the dead.”
Basically you gave the answer in the beginning of the post “emergent (early church) considered “itself” a community of believers” or believers who forgot the rules.
What was known to the Apostles before the degradation of the beliefs is not mentioned in scripture directly.
But is mentioned prophetically, for this was well known in times of the Apostles, therefore, there was no need to address why the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead was not admonished?
If I am mistaken there was no Prophet of God in scripture who prayed to or inquired of to a dead person other than Saul.
6 Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb). Bible. The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve.
The message is of Jesus Christ or “the land the Lord your God is giving you”, the rest follows.
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/2/2005 10:15:33 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/2/2005 11:06:15 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Hey bro!
Good to see you again, as always.
No promise I'll be able to decipher your post, but good to see you again....I think.
Peace of Christ and be sure to listen to the right Spirit,
Michael
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
A quick comment and a question.
I read your comments very very closely looking for something more than an opinion - one to which you are, of course, entitled. I saw no studied substance to the objections you made other than your own reasoning. It might be very good reasoning, but it is hardly the basis for one to negate an established point of doctrine.
Second, it is historical fact that the emergent (early church) considered itself a community of believers which was not constrained by time or space. We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ.
These were contemporaneous with the establishment of the Churches, preaching of the Gospel, and the teaching of disciples by the Apostles themselves. Remember, too, that those in charge of these Churches had been approved, in the same manner as Timothy, to guard the faith and it's practice.
Assuming, to support your view as much as possible, that this practice is unscriptural, and wrong, why is it that the Apostles, those they trained and approved, and those they trained after them each failed to denounce (in the strongest way) these practices?
The Apostles were very clear in their teaching and scripture is very clear on practices which were prevalent during the time, i.e. meats to idols, homosexuality, licentiousness, fornication - each was denounced and prohibited.
Why was the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead not admonished? Where is the explicit NT prohibition? (we can deal with your OT interpretation later)
Okay maybe more than one comment and more than one question.
In Christ,
Meep meep
Greetings,
Prophet
Prophet (pròf´ît) noun
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
5. Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb). Bible. The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve.
[q] The Apostles were very clear in their teaching and scripture is very clear on practices which were prevalent during the time, i.e. meats to idols, homosexuality, licentiousness, fornication - each was denounced and prohibited.
You mentioned “Second, it is historical fact that the emergent (early church) considered itself a community of believers which was not constrained by time or space. We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ.”[/q]
By the definition of Prophet we have two separate definitions Above in # 1 and again in # 3
# 1 is ordained in scripture as the anointed ones who “speaks by divine inspiration or as an interpreter”
When Satan tempted Jesus in Matt 4, Satan corrupted the interpretation, therefore as mentioned in Old Testament scripture Duet 18-9-12
9 "When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable customs of those nations. 10 No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery, 11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead.
# 3 we have a prophet who is considered a soothsayer or a predictor.
There is a major difference between a soothsayer or a predictor and one who speaks by divine inspiration or as an interpreter. One must remember in scripture Lucifer was also anointed.
In Matt 4, Satan, used predictions, Christ used divine interpretation.
The Bible says in Duet 18 verse 9 “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you” this means salvation.
When one is saved one does not do what is mentioned in Duet 18:9-12 “or inquire of the dead.”
Basically you gave the answer in the beginning of the post “emergent (early church) considered “itself” a community of believers” or believers who forgot the rules.
What was known to the Apostles before the degradation of the beliefs is not mentioned in scripture directly.
But is mentioned prophetically, for this was well known in times of the Apostles, therefore, there was no need to address why the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead was not admonished?
If I am mistaken there was no Prophet of God in scripture who prayed to or inquired of to a dead person other than Saul.
6 Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb). Bible. The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve.
The message is of Jesus Christ or “the land the Lord your God is giving you”, the rest follows.
Loyal Gypsy
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 2:09:52 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3704
Status: offline
|
meep meep
quote:
I read your comments very very closely looking for something more than an opinion - one to which you are, of course, entitled. I saw no studied substance to the objections you made other than your own reasoning. It might be very good reasoning, but it is hardly the basis for one to negate an established point of doctrine. The Rev 8:3-4 quote does not say what the op insisted: that this verse indicates that the souls of those in heaven are offering prayers for those on earth. The op used this to bolster a doctrine, I'm saying it offers no evidence that these prayers are from those on earth. Now this may be the opinion of the op, but it certainly offers no evidence for his stance.
quote:
We see, in the Catacombs (Rome) for example, drawings which depict the dead being joined with the living saints in prayer and worship, as well as inscriptions of prayer for those who have died in Christ. I'm not sure what the relevance of drawings in catacombs has to do with whether scripture endorses in any way the praying to the dead. If you believe that some early on practices should be used as evidence of the propriety of praying to the dead, that certainly is your right. I'm only addressing what scripture has to say on the topic.
quote:
Why was the practice of prayer for and "to" the dead not admonished? Where is the explicit NT prohibition? (we can deal with your OT interpretation later) There are many teachings in the Bible which are not explicit...the Trinity for one. But you gather and study what is said about the topic and if your conclusion agrees with the rest of scripture, you may be sure you've come to truth. The scriptures used by the op to foster prayer to the dead do not agree with his conclusion.
kelman
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 5:28:48 PM
|
|
|
meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
|
Christianity is more than just another of the many myths which abounded before , during, and after the birth of Christ. Christianity is a faith of history, proven by eyewitnesses, and corroborated by historical evidence.
There were witnesses to Christ and his time on earth. As Luke states the Gospel message is validated by that which was seen, heard, and touched by others. The Apostles - as those trained and imbued with the Holy Spirit were the final arbiters of the Truth they had seen and heard.
In the same manner that Paul offered correction to the Churches - as we read in scripture and as evidenced by other contemporaneous "inspired" writings - the Apostles and sebsequent elders were in a unique position to define what was correct or incorrect doctrine.
Where is their prohibition of this practice or doctrine? As an abominable practice - it is one which they should have been explicitly prohibited - and yet we have no such evidence - but we do have evidence to the contrary -
The Catacombs - are just one of many "proofs" we have of how the church implemented the doctrine. What it means is that there is verified archeological evidence which shows that the early Christians - persecuted for their Christian beliefs - counted those who were dead among the community of the faithful. Those who had died were a "living" part of the community and included in prayer and supplication.
Those illustrations in tandem with writings by disciples, and others, a study of Jewish culture and belief (Jesus and the Apostles were Jews), the pertinent text in the OT and not misapplication of verses, writings by elders at the time - all these strongly support the doctrine.
THAT is the relevance - that it is witness to the practice and belief of the Church and not something rejected or concocted 1500 years later, nor a conclusion reached by an individual based on his/her study and interpretation of scripture. What scripture has to say is not examined in a vacum - it is tied contextually to the history, belief, and culture which gave it birth and meaning.
Most importantly it is the elders of the Early Christian community ( Apostles and disciples) who accepted this belief and practice - (read the early documents) WITHOUT OBJECTION. What does Paul say about praying for the dead, for example?
As to you use of the OT - please remember that the Apostles and Early Christians did not use the OT to understand Jesus - but used the training and teaching of Jesus to understand the OT. You should really study the distinctions between the OT admonitions and the NT community of believers.
Further, WHO are the saints? Are we not ALL saints? Are the elders alive or dead? If "dead" then how can they be offering prayer? When Jesus said to the "good" thief "today you will be with me in heaven" did he really mean that? If the thief is in Heaven is He alive or dead? If He is dead, are you saying that there are "dead" in Heaven? Or are they alive? Was Jesus lying? The whole point of the power of the Gospel is the resurrection - We either believe in the resurrection of the dead and the community of saints or we don't - there are plenty of other myths to which we may cling instead of to Christianity and Christ.
Finally, why does Jesus HIMSELF use a parable with communication between the dead and living? ( a prayer no less).
More later.
In Christ,
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 5:50:18 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Greetings,
Good to see ya, to.[image][/image]
Yeah, Just stiring up the pot a little so to speak.
[q]No promise I'll be able to decipher your post, but good to see you again....I think. [/q]
LOL[image][/image]
Manys times the answers we seek or the revelations are to be revealed in future. Dont work too hard, as for myself many times I receive a piece of revelation of what I encoded at various points in the futue.
LG
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 5:57:23 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Can anyone out here instruct me how to get the smiley faces into the document????
LG
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 6:21:48 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Can anyone out here instruct me how to get the smiley faces into the document????
Sure thing, Gypsy. When you hit the "Quote" button at the top of a post, you get a dialogue box labeled "Reply to Message." The smileys are all over the left side [and the top, with select buttons], and there are even more if you click on "more smileys" on the left.
Personally, I prefer the good old-fashioned "colon, right parenthesis" guy. :)
Hope that helps.
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 6:38:46 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Don't mean to intrude, but just a couple thoughts...
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Rev 8:3-4 quote does not say what the op insisted: that this verse indicates that the souls of those in heaven are offering prayers for those on earth. The op used this to bolster a doctrine, I'm saying it offers no evidence that these prayers are from those on earth. Now this may be the opinion of the op, but it certainly offers no evidence for his stance.
The Doctrine of the Communion of Saints [a belief expressed in the Apostles' Creed, the oldest written synopsis of the Christian Faith] presupposes an understanding of the Church as the Body of Christ; i.e., an intimate union of souls as the Body of which Christ is the Head. Scripture is clear on that point, agree? True, isolating Rev. 8:3-4 may not prove anything to you, but this verse was not cited as a prooftext, but just one more Scriptural support for the doctrine.
See 1Cor. 12:12-27. Note especially v. 21:
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."
Naturally, I suppose someone could literally say "I do not need you," but I think Paul's point is that it is futile to do so; the Body is One in Christ though made of many individual members [v. 27]. I guess the question to be asked is if you believe Christ truly did conquer death or if you believe members are amputated from Christ's Body upon their passing into Glory.
Just a few thoughts.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 6:57:07 PM
|
|
|
HeadHome
Posts: 57
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear GoodME, and others of similar stripe,
I'm sorry that I offended you so, but I stand on my beliefs. I have two good friends who happen to be Catholic, both of whom pray to Mary. It doesn't concern me that many deny something which I know to be true through eyewitness evidence. How did I come up with my conclusions, you ask? By reading three different Bible translations, examining the corresponding concordances, and praying over it all. Yet you accuse me of making no effort to look into this issue beyond a simple coin flip, and then (in essence) called me a pinhead. Not that I care much, but how is that "being the Christianity that you speak of" with someone who disagrees with you? (I mean, you're blasting a person who has somehow managed to be called both "n****r" AND "honky," so "pinhead" is pretty lightweight to me!
BTW, I'm no fan of mainline Protestant denominations, either. I've left three of them, though that fact brings me no joy. I feel as though I broke a covenant with God, even though there were Biblical reasons to leave. I now attend a non-denominational church, because I believe it is the best approach to being part of a Christian congregation. But there is no perfect church, mine included. I only hope that when you're tempted to start name-calling, you'll remember that we are all flawed and that none of us has been made perfect on this earthly side of heaven.
Peace...I'm out of here.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/3/2005 7:45:21 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear HeadHome,
quote:
ORIGINAL: HeadHome
Dear GoodME, and others of similar stripe,
I'm sorry that I offended you so, but I stand on my beliefs. I have two good friends who happen to be Catholic, both of whom pray to Mary. It doesn't concern me that many deny something which I know to be true through eyewitness evidence. How did I come up with my conclusions, you ask? By reading three different Bible translations, examining the corresponding concordances, and praying over it all. Yet you accuse me of making no effort to look into this issue beyond a simple coin flip, and then (in essence) called me a pinhead. Not that I care much, but how is that "being the Christianity that you speak of" with someone who disagrees with you? (I mean, you're blasting a person who has somehow managed to be called both "n****r" AND "honky," so "pinhead" is pretty lightweight to me!
Please accept my apology if you have been offended here by my Catholic brethren/sistren. I'm sure they meant no offense. Sometimes these theological "discussions" do not accurately reflect the love and respect that surely resides in the hearts of all of us Christians, whether Catholic or non-Catholic. You haven't posted here in quite a while. I had to page back many pages to find your post, and I didn't notice anyone intentionally demeaning your thoughts. Yes, there is disagreement, but we can all do that with a little respect, as well.
If you would be so kind to indulge me, I think I can shed a bit of light about the Catholic Christian predicament in such a venue. First of all, we are outnumbered, obviously [and understandable given the nature of this site]. Because we are few, the few argue the same points over and over and over with different people, many of whom do not seem to believe that we are truly defining our own actual beliefs because they have been led to believe they know Catholic doctrine better than those who actually adhere to Catholicism. Some folks prefer to latch onto the anti-Catholic characterizations they have read or have heard from their preachers' lips from their perspective pulpits. I'm not saying you are doing this, I'm just trying to help you understand that a short answer from a Catholic here does not necessarily mean they are being disrespectful, though I can assure you, none of us have called you, or believe you are, a "pinhead."
quote:
BTW, I'm no fan of mainline Protestant denominations, either. I've left three of them, though that fact brings me no joy. I feel as though I broke a covenant with God, even though there were Biblical reasons to leave. I now attend a non-denominational church, because I believe it is the best approach to being part of a Christian congregation. But there is no perfect church, mine included. I only hope that when you're tempted to start name-calling, you'll remember that we are all flawed and that none of us has been made perfect on this earthly side of heaven.
I appreciate your honesty regarding your own fellowship. On behalf of whoever offended you, HeadHome, I ask your forgiveness.
quote:
Peace...I'm out of here.
I pray you to stay. I would enjoy talking more with you.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2005 4:14:09 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3704
Status: offline
|
Michael
quote:
True, isolating Rev. 8:3-4 may not prove anything to you, but this verse was not cited as a prooftext, but just one more Scriptural support for the doctrine. But that was my point, it does not offer any support to the op conclusions. At the very least that vial of incense was a represention of prayers. No indication whatsoever that these prayers were prayed to anyone other than God.
quote:
I guess the question to be asked is if you believe Christ truly did conquer death or if you believe members are amputated from Christ's Body upon their passing into Glory. I respectfully disagree. The question is do you believe what the Bible has to say concerning how and to whom we are commanded to pray?
And conquering death? What Christ did when He conquered death was to save his elect from hell, the second death. Nothing to do with praying to the dead.
kelman
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2005 4:55:25 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3704
Status: offline
|
meep meep
quote:
the Apostles and sebsequent elders were in a unique position to define what was correct or incorrect doctrine. Yes in so far as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to pen the Scriptures. You have only to look at the seven churches in Rev to see that apostasy had already taken place before the Bible was even completed.
quote:
In the same manner that Paul offered correction to the Churches - as we read in scripture and as evidenced by other contemporaneous "inspired" writings - the Apostles and sebsequent elders were in a unique position to define what was correct or incorrect doctrine. You got me here, whatever are contemporaneous “inspired" writings. Again I am not addressing RCC beliefs on their authority. What I am addressing is praying to the dead.. And the fact that there is no scriptural evidence to support such a thing.
quote:
Where is their prohibition of this practice or doctrine? As an abominable practice - it is one which they should have been explicitly prohibited - and yet we have no such evidence - but we do have evidence to the contrary - But you have no biblical evidence to the contrary which is my point. What the Scriptures do command from the OT to the NT is: we pray to God...and to God alone. It is the only biblical method of prayer. The number of references that attest to this commandment is overwhelming.
quote:
The Catacombs - are just one of many "proofs" we have of how the church implemented the doctrine. What it means is that there is verified archeological evidence which shows that the early Christians-persecuted for their Christian beliefs-counted those who were dead among the community of the faithful. Those who had died were a "living" part of the community and included in prayer and supplication. That may very well be, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Especially since anything depicted in a catacomb cannot in any way be considered inspired by God. As I mentioned before, apostasy had taken root very early on, according to the Scriptures.
We need only look at Act 7:59 to see the biblical mandate as to how we should pray, especially at the hour of our death. "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
quote:
the pertinent text in the OT and not misapplication of verses, writings by elders at the time - all these strongly support the doctrine. Please reference these OT verses. I'd be happy to look at them. ...if they truly do support the doctrine of praying to the dead; and are not a misapplication as the op verses were.
kelman
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/4/2005 6:00:47 PM
|
|
|
GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HeadHome
I'm sorry that I offended you so, but I stand on my beliefs. I have two good friends who happen to be Catholic, both of whom pray to Mary. It doesn't concern me that many deny something which I know to be true through eyewitness evidence. How did I come up with my conclusions, you ask? By reading three different Bible translations, examining the corresponding concordances, and praying over it all.
My understanding of Scriptures comes from Greek and Hebrew...so I guess I am "1 translation".
I am genuinely sorry if I offended you. Mostly because of the injustice I caused you, secondly that this offense occurred on a "Christian" website, and lastly because my offense gives both God and the Roman Catholic Church a bad rap.
Having said that - understand my frustration at times after participating in these forums for over a year on Christianity.com (close to 4,000 posts) before being migrated here, at the subject of continuing to have to dispell and refute rumors, myths and inuendo about my Faith from those who have never so much as attended a single Mass in their life.
There are some who would contend that having a friend who is Catholic gives one the same level of experience and expertise with this Faith as one who has practiced it for 40+ years first-hand. I can assure you - it doesn't.
Some subjects here push those buttons. If I jumped on you - chances are you were twisting some knobs. Sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/7/2005 5:34:23 PM
|
|
|
HeadHome
Posts: 57
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Well, GoodME, I can say, "wow." I long for the free time to post 4,000 times; though if I had it, I'd start by reading the Bible more frequently. It's my favorite book. I haven't the experience with Forums that you do, nor do I read or speak Hebrew or Greek. (That's why I bought a NASB study Bible with Hebrew and Greek concordances. After all, I have enough of a challenge speaking English!) If my wife supported the posting of personal information, I could explain why I choose not to invest time studying Catholicism. Let's just say that I'm busy, like most everyone else. Should I claim to be an expert in Catholic teaching and practice, you may denounce me as an heretic (although I may not stand still if you begin work on my funeral pyre). 
I also appreciate the reminder that the saints in heaven are not dead, but alive. That's a good point. But I still prefer to have Jesus making the lion's share of intercession on my behalf with our Father. I'll gladly accept it from fellow believers who are alive, as Scripture clearly commands us to pray for one another. Beyond that, I'm not convinced that we are commanded or encouraged to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us.
Peace.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 4:24:32 PM
|
|
|
lss44
Posts: 96
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
|
Maybe it has been said on this thread, but it is worth repeating...
John 14:16
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
We cannot not pray to or call upon anyone on earth or in heaven, except Jesus Christ. Any teaching contrary to this is false.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 5:16:37 PM
|
|
|
NathanS
Posts: 3
Joined: 7/10/2005
Status: offline
|
I think maybe there is a difference between the Protestant "Saint" and the Catholic "Saint". It seems to me from what I ahve heard about the Catholic faith, is that there are certain people who decide which person is going to be a saint. THe Protestant saint is anyone who has been saved by Jesus. I do not believe in praying TO the saints at all, that does entirely nothing. What can they do? They have no power. "Oh Saint Mary, save me from this horrible disease!" Umm, no, because She cant do anything. Its only God who can do anything like that. ASKING the saints to pray for you is something entirly different, maybe "Mary, please ask Jesus to take this horrible disease from me, pray for me!". But I dont agree with that either. Jesus is who your are supposed to be seeking. Put your faith in God.
_____________________________
Rambling Club President - 05/13/7
I make the rules now!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 6:26:26 PM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Maybe it has been said on this thread, but it is worth repeating...
John 14:16
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
We cannot not pray to or call upon anyone on earth or in heaven, except Jesus Christ. Any teaching contrary to this is false.
Dear Iss44,
Strictly speaking, if you want to speak strictly, we are not suppose to call upon Jesus, but upon the Father.
On the Feast of St. John Jones
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 7:41:08 PM
|
|
|
lss44
Posts: 96
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
|
Ro 8:26-27 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Ro 8:34" who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."
|
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
