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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 2:44:12 PM
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myka
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quote:
Canon was already established, the councils merely recognized what was already there. They didn't "decide" canon.
The Canon was not established until after 325 AD. There were differences of opinion about what should be included in the Canon of Scripture. The Canon of the Old Testament was essentially the same as the Hebrew Scriptures, but the Canon of the New Testament was being 'decided' during some of the councils.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 3:03:57 PM
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myka
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From "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatas Redintegratio" -- coming out of Vatican II
quote:
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 3:22:25 PM
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myka
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quote:
However, RC will then turn right around and contradictorily declare its priests continue to immolate and offer this same blood - daily.
According to the RCC, they do not offer the 'blood'. It is Christ who offers himself, not the church.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 3:54:16 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 856
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
However, RC will then turn right around and contradictorily declare its priests continue to immolate and offer this same blood - daily.
According to the RCC, they do not offer the 'blood'. It is Christ who offers himself, not the church.
Right. The Church teaches that the priest is the instrument of Christ, who offers himself. Even Aquinas said that we have only One High Priest, the priests being only his ministers. We call the ministers "priests" because they act in the place of Jesus Christ, purely by His grace. It is difficult to articulate, but that's to be expected in anything as mysterious as our redemption, which is both eternal and worked out day by day Cf. Phil 2:12.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 6:26:31 PM
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ManimalX
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Why in the world would Jesus "offer Himself" again every day?!?!
"He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself." - Hebrews 7:27
"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him - Hebrews 9:23-28
Wow! It is almost like God was trying to tell us something here! Something about, oh, I don't know... man-made doctrines that claim Jesus has to keep re-sacrificing Himself every day?
For the sake of charity, I am trying really hard not to be snarky and sarcastic.
"For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God." - Romans 6:10
His blood was shed once for all. Remember, "It is finished"? Roman Priests might like to claim that they "act in the place of Jesus Christ", but it is of course false. This isn't the Old Testament anymore. We don't have intermediaries anymore. Rather, we have direct access to our Abba Father's throne directly through our Advocate, Jesus Christ.
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." - 1st John 2:1
"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." - Hebrews 4:16
Not "draw near to the throne of the Pope in Rome". Draw near to the very throne of grace!
Not Father Flannigan, the Roman Catholic Priest. Not Pope Thus-n-So. Just Jesus, who sacrificed Himself ONCE and who asked us to share in communion in order to remember His one-time sacrifice.
P.S. In reading the Scriptures to formulate this post, it occurred to me that Rome probably hates the book of Hebrews, as that letter does a great deal of violence against some very coveted Roman doctrine.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 10/26/2009 6:32:36 PM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 6:34:49 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 856
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
P.S. In reading the Scriptures to formulate this post, it occurred to me that Rome probably hates the book of Hebrews, as that letter does a great deal of violence against some very coveted Roman doctrine.
If the Catholic Church hated the Letter to the Hebrews--as Martin Luther did, did he not?--she and her Popes hardly would have included it in the one, historic Christian Canon of the N.T. which came through teh Catholic Church and no other group.
I think it is easy to misinterpret this letter, because it is a mystery how Christ's one sacrifice is applied throughout all time. As Scriptrue says, "The Bread which we break, is it not our participation in the Body of Christ? The Cup of blessing...is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"
Again: "for as often as we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes."
Actually the Book of Hebrews shows that Christ is "a priest forever, after the order of Melchizekek". Thus, his sacrifice is once and forever. The Mass, as Scripture says, is our participation in the Blood of Christ.
quote:
Roman Priests might like to claim that they "act in the place of Jesus Christ", but it is of course false.
No, this is true. See Jn 20:23 which shows how Christ's One Mediation is not obscured by the Apostolic authority to forgive sins, nor to act in the place of Christ in the Christian Liturgy.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/26/2009 6:52:41 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 8:35:29 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3604
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ManimalX,
quote:
Wow! It is almost like God was trying to tell us something here! Something about, oh, I don't know... man-made doctrines that claim Jesus has to keep re-sacrificing Himself every day?
You are right...........and the RCC does totally opposite in their ritual!
quote:
For the sake of charity, I am trying really hard not to be snarky and sarcastic.
LOL
They should have charity!
It is not as if we should be blamed because we watch them eat wafers and drink wine and we see, smell, and taste that it is mere bread and wine.
I could see them being less charitable to other Christians if they were indeed drinking real blood and held real flesh in their hands and Christians claimed it was wafers and wine.
The obvious is the obvious and it is obvious that the RCC misses the point that Jesus was making and are uncharitable towards other Christians that dis-agree by claiming they are anathema.
I mean seriously now.....I would not claim they are anathema if they claim that Jesus Christ is their Savior and some how in their fallible and delusional minds they think they are eating flesh when they are eating wafers.
The truth of the matter is that they are holding wafers in their hands and then complain, moan, groan, whine, and cant handle it when a person tells them so.
Anyways.....nice post and great Scripture.
Scripture will never out-do their oral hodge podge of man made traditions and rules.
But, you already knew that.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 8:48:10 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3604
Joined: 12/2/2006
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patricius79,
quote:
I think what some people don't understant is that Christianity is not an individualism or an ideology.
We either follow Christ or we don't.
We either believe that God can do anything, or we don't.
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
Protestants have not had the RCC sacrament.
Do we protestants have life within us or not?
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 8:50:51 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 856
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
Wow! It is almost like God was trying to tell us something here! Something about, oh, I don't know... man-made doctrines that claim Jesus has to keep re-sacrificing Himself every day?
You are right...........and the RCC does totally opposite in their ritual!
I think you forgot the Scripture which says that Jesus Christ is "high priest forever after the order of Melchizadek." If you can't understand how Christ can offer himself in a bloody manner once, and an unbloody manner forever, well, you're human.
quote:
They should have charity!
It is not as if we should be blamed because we watch them eat wafers and drink wine and we see, smell, and taste that it is mere bread and wine.
Is a man acting as a Christian if they don't respect historic Christianity but make up a new subjective version of their own?
quote:
I could see them being less charitable to other Christians if they were indeed drinking real blood and held real flesh in their hands and Christians claimed it was wafers and wine.
You are still struggling with Jn 6? Well, just ask the Holy Spirit to help you, and I will prayfor your too. God does love you.
quote:
The obvious is the obvious and it is obvious that the RCC misses the point that Jesus was making and are uncharitable towards other Christians that dis-agree by claiming they are anathema.
We can't be changing Christian beliefs because we think we are better than the Apostles, who left one faith for all, for all time, and said nothing abuot how the Liturgy is only a symbol.
quote:
I mean seriously now.....I would not claim they are anathema if they claim that Jesus Christ is their Savior and some how in their fallible and delusional minds they think they are eating flesh when they are eating wafers.
Well, if you did, you would still be somewhat confused, and in either case your ideas are not entirely consistent with Christianity, but I can't judge your subjectivity.
quote:
The truth of the matter is that they are holding wafers in their hands and then complain, moan, groan, whine, and cant handle it when a person tells them so.
No, but it is ironic that a professed Christian ridicules those who believe in Christ's central teaching. Cf. Jn 6:51-57.
quote:
Scripture will never out-do their oral hodge podge of man made traditions and rules.
Sola Scriptura, "baptism doesn't save" (cf. 2 Pt 1:21), and "it's okay to disagree on Christian doctrines", are some un-Biblical and spurious traditions to which you seem to adhere. (Though perhaps I am wrong about your view of Baptism).
I think it is sad that you call the Christian faith a "hodge-podge".
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/26/2009 9:15:32 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 8:57:23 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1191
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Heck, Rome sends its own people to hell if they don't make their "Easter duty".
The Church can send no one to hell - only God's just judgment can do that...
The rest of your posts were even less accurate than the sentence quoted above....
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 9:14:13 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1191
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
in all fairness, KJB is as coherent in his faith in God and Scripture as you are in your faith in your Papacy and tradition.
An observation here would be that the tactic seems to be to "blunderbuss" the thread with all manner of off-topic hoo-haa, and demand a detailed response of about 5 paragraphs for every sentence of "blunderbuss" hypothesis.
Based in what I perceive to be a state of "made-up mind", I can think of more useful things to do with my time. Especially when this thread is replete with the hard work and responses to most of this nonsense, said nonsense being dredged up over and over and over, with no end in sight...
So - probably some frustration being expressed by some here.
For example, ECf's have been quoted a snippet at a time, in order to establish an "authoritative" backing, and yet when confronted with the ECF's view and support of Maccabees, no response....
So...the model here is to develop whatever faith we feel like developing, under our own self-appointed authority, and use slivers of work from ECF's here and there to try to make that made-up faith "authoritative", and completely ignore and dismiss evidence supplied in the contrary to refute this model of developing faith.
One poster has been criticized for repeatedly posting the same question over and over. He seems to be seeking a response, which seems to be lacking.
You have come the closest to having a reasonable "coherent" conversation about this. The others - really don't care...they have formulated their faith and are playing that hand.
I wish them good luck with that.
In the mean time, they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at trying to be disruptive and incoherent, including wandering all over, in terms of topic. I am kind of disappointed that you read what is being put up and get out of that a rational and logical flow of discussion and discourse heading to a point.
It's hardly that.
These are the Catholic threads - for the Catholics to enlighten, inform and discuss the difference between Catholic and Protestant practice and instruction of Christianity. Its not for a couple of people to hi-jack and make a circus out of the discussion.
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 9:14:37 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2919
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
P.S. In reading the Scriptures to formulate this post, it occurred to me that Rome probably hates the book of Hebrews, as that letter does a great deal of violence against some very coveted Roman doctrine.
If the Catholic Church hated the Letter to the Hebrews--as Martin Luther did, did he not?--she and her Popes hardly would have included it in the one, historic Christian Canon of the N.T. which came through teh Catholic Church and no other group.
I think it is easy to misinterpret this letter, because it is a mystery how Christ's one sacrifice is applied throughout all time. As Scriptrue says, "The Bread which we break, is it not our participation in the Body of Christ? The Cup of blessing...is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"
Again: "for as often as we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes."
Actually the Book of Hebrews shows that Christ is "a priest forever, after the order of Melchizekek". Thus, his sacrifice is once and forever. The Mass, as Scripture says, is our participation in the Blood of Christ.
You addressed my P.S. but avoided the part where I provided several passages of Scripture that completely contradict what you wrote about Christ offering himself. Scripture teaches that the idea of Jesus offering himself repeatedly on a daily basis is ridiculous.
What kind of verbal judo has the RCC done to bypass this plain teaching?
quote:
quote:
Roman Priests might like to claim that they "act in the place of Jesus Christ", but it is of course false.
No, this is true. See Jn 20:23 which shows how Christ's One Mediation is not obscured by the Apostolic authority to forgive sins, nor to act in the place of Christ in the Christian Liturgy.
No, this is not true. This verse doesn't give anyone authority to forgive sins in the sense you are trying to make it. It gives believers the authority to declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness by God the Father because of the work of Jesus the Son if that person has repented and embraced the Gospel. Likewise, believers are able to declare with certainty that those who haven't repented and embraced the Gospel are not forgiven.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 9:17:46 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1191
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Protestants have not had the RCC sacrament.
Do we protestants have life within us or not?
KJB
...only God can see the heart...
...the rest of us have to go by what and how you choose to post...
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/26/2009 9:35:27 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3604
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Doghouse,
quote:
...only God can see the heart...
...the rest of us have to go by what and how you choose to post...
So basically you evade the actual question and "blunderbuss" me.
This is what patricius79, posted;
quote:
I think what some people don't understant is that Christianity is not an individualism or an ideology.
We either follow Christ or we don't.
We either believe that God can do anything, or we don't.
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
I colored the Scripture text in red.
I asked a simple question based on what patricius79 posted along with the Scripture text provided.
As a protestant I have not partaken in the RCC sacramental ritual.
That means I have not eaten the RCC wafers or drank the RCC wine that has supposedly changed into blood and flesh.
Do I as a protestant have life within me or not?
At least be honest.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 12:32:45 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2919
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Do I as a protestant have life within me or not?
At least be honest.
KJB
We all know the honest Roman Catholic answer is "no, you are headed to hell because you are outside of the REAL church", but 1) they are afraid to say it out loud and 2) if they did, it would probably violate TOS as "questioning someone's salvation".
Yet another freedom we have as naughty "protesters" is that we don't have to worry about judging the salvation of others or declare folks as hell-bound because their works don't measure up.  We realize the truth that man doesn't judge man in matters of salvation, that one man, regardless of how pointy his hat is, doesn't control the salvation of any other man.
It really is a joyful experience to live out a life free from voluminous dusty old man-made rules and regulations, and instead to live only as Jesus would have us: under His easy yoke and light burden, free in the Spirit and free indeed. 
Christianity is actually pretty easy, folks. It is man in his shortsightedness and ignorance and lust for power that decides to complicate things with unnecessary bureaucracy.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 1:36:47 AM
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wkirscher
Posts: 402
Joined: 3/28/2009
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quote:
No, this is not true. This verse doesn't give anyone authority to forgive sins in the sense you are trying to make it. It gives believers the authority to declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness by God the Father because of the work of Jesus the Son if that person has repented and embraced the Gospel. Likewise, believers are able to declare with certainty that those who haven't repented and embraced the Gospel are not forgiven.
ManimalX - and you accused me of biblical eisegesis when I gave a very thorough exegetical treatment of Mt. 16 and Is 22:22!!!! Don’t read Protestant man-made tradition into God’s Word. Read what it says! Jesus breathed on his disciples and said “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." Jesus very clearly grants a special authority to the disciples he commissioned to be leaders of the church. Where in the text does it say what you claim it says? How can you accurately grade papers or write papers on Pauline letters if you are going to interject your own man made tradition into God’s Word?
Jesus says: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven”.
ManimalX says: No. Jesus didn’t really mean that. What he really meant was all believers have the authority …
Jesus says: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood …..” and “This IS my body …. This IS my blood…”
ManimalX says: No. Jesus didn’t really mean that. What he really meant was ….
This sure sounds a lot like what I heard from the pulpit of my “bible only” fellowships. The pastor or “biblical scholar” reads a verse or two and then tells us what it “really means”.
I’m amending my post after re-reading portions of the Westminster Confession of Faith …
Kelman – you should take issue with what ManimalX has posted here. Chapter XXX, paragraph II of the WCF claims the following:
“To these officers the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are committed, by virtue whereof they have power respectively to retain and remit sins, to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the word and censures; and to open it unto penitent sinners, by the ministry of the gospel, and by absolution from censures, as occasion shall require.”
The WCF uses John 20:21-23 to defend this teaching. Here is a link to the WCF with biblical citations: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html
ManimalX – did the authors of the WCF get this part wrong?
< Message edited by wkirscher -- 10/27/2009 2:25:30 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 1:57:27 AM
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wkirscher
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Joined: 3/28/2009
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quote:
Especially when this thread is replete with the hard work and responses to most of this nonsense, said nonsense being dredged up over and over and over, with no end in sight... I suggested a possible solution to this some time ago … ignore the person who perpetually posts the nonsense we’ve responded to countless times.
Speaking of Real Presence …..
A nephew on my wife’s side, and student at Princeton Theological Seminary, got married last weekend at a chapel at the PTS. He is Lutheran and is the son of a Lutheran pastor and his new bride is a Presbyterian also from PTS (though at the grooms dinner, it was announced to all that she was a “closet Lutheran”). So she is a “closet Lutheran” but is doing some sort of internship in preparation for ordination as a Presbyterian. Her older sister is currently an ordained Presbyterian minister.
So the wedding ceremony comes along and it was decided that the primary presider would be the Presbyterian minister and sister of the bride and the celebrant of the Lord’s Supper would be the Lutheran minister and father of the groom. After the consecration, the Lutheran minister announced that it was an open communion and that “anyone who believes Jesus Christ is truly present is welcome at the Lord’s Table”. So here we have a Lutheran minister who, if he is holding true to the teachings of his denomination, should firmly believe and teach that Jesus Christ is consubstantially physically present in the bread and wine. And then we have about half of the congregation who is Presbyterian who, if holding true to the teachings of their denomination, should firmly believe that Jesus Christ is not physically present but only spiritually (or maybe just symbolically) present.
So what is truth? The sola-scriptura Lutherans say Jesus is physically present. The sola-scriptura Presbyterians say he is not. The sermon light-heartedly addressed the fact that the congregation was comprised mostly of those who follow the teachings of Luther and those who follow the teachings of Calvin. They both claim scripture as their final authority but can’t seem to figure out if Luther or Calvin was right on what “true presence” really means. Maybe they should hold a council meeting like the one in Acts 15 and resolve these differences. Or just sweep them under the rug and water down the Lord’s Supper into the “true presence” is whatever you personally believe it to be. What do you say ManimalX? Did Luther get it right or did Calvin or Wesley or Knox or …. Is Jesus physically, spiritually, or symbolically present? Do we each get to decide truth for ourselves?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 2:48:15 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2919
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wkirscher
quote:
No, this is not true. This verse doesn't give anyone authority to forgive sins in the sense you are trying to make it. It gives believers the authority to declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness by God the Father because of the work of Jesus the Son if that person has repented and embraced the Gospel. Likewise, believers are able to declare with certainty that those who haven't repented and embraced the Gospel are not forgiven.
Chapter XXX, paragraph II of the WCF claims the following:
“To these officers the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are committed, by virtue whereof they have power respectively to retain and remit sins, to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the word and censures; and to open it unto penitent sinners, by the ministry of the gospel, and by absolution from censures, as occasion shall require.”
The WCF uses John 20:21-23 to defend this teaching. Here is a link to the WCF with biblical citations: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html
ManimalX – did the authors of the WCF get this part wrong?
Did you even read what I wrote? Obviously not, because I wrote the exact same thing as your quote from the WCF! Which, BTW, is pretty cool since I have never read the WCF! The only part I didn't include was the part about church discipline (called censure in the WCF), which I was going to but didn't want to muddy the waters with another issue.
Anyway, did you notice the key words "penitent" and "impenitent"? That is the exact same thing I wrote about: repentance and embracing the Gospel, unrepentance and rejecting the Gospel.
The verse in question is all about proclaiming what is already true about a person's salvation. It does not mean some unglorified fallible error-prone human in a pointy hat gets to grant or revoke another human's salvation. God isn't so stupid as to leave the eternal salvation or damnation of souls in the prideful, corruptible, fickle hands of any human, save the nail-scarred hands of One who is incorruptible and faithful (and I ain't talkin' about some dude who lives in Rome).
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 3:14:21 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2919
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wkirscher
What do you say ManimalX? Did Luther get it right or did Calvin or Wesley or Knox or …. Is Jesus physically, spiritually, or symbolically present? Do we each get to decide truth for ourselves?
Well, we know for a fact it isn't physically present, because Scripture tells us quite clearly and plainly where Jesus is physically right now: in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.
"Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven." - Luke 24:51-52
"And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." - Acts 1:9-11
"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." - John 14:2-3
Isn't that part of one of your coveted Creeds? "6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father." I don't notice any fine print that reads: "except for when He invisibly comes back to Earth every day so he can be eaten and digested by a bunch of people during communion".
As far as I can tell, Jesus hasn't returned to Earth yet! Especially inside a magical cracker or some mystical wine... When He returns physically to the Earth, we will all know about it.
Communion is pretty simple. Jesus told us to do it in remembrance of Him. He didn't say He would join the party by sneaking in disguised as the appetizers.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 10/27/2009 3:23:29 AM >
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 3:40:53 AM
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wkirscher
Posts: 402
Joined: 3/28/2009
Status: offline
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ManimalX - please read the WCF and the biblical citations. I read every word you wrote. You claim that Jesus was speaking of the authority of ALL believers to "declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness". That is what you say. Again, here is what Jesus says to the disciples he commissioned with his authority:
"“If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven”.
Where in this verse does it say anything about "[giving] believers the authority"? Don't accuse others of eisegeses when you are so clearly doing it with this "difficult" verse.
And you didn't write the exact same thing as the WCF. Again, here is what the WCF says:
“To these officers the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are committed, by virtue whereof they have power respectively to retain and remit sins, to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the word and censures..."
Not only are you reading into scripture, you're also reading into the very clear text of the WCF. Not to worry, you can simply reject the WCF and the teachings of it's authors because they were fallible and only scripture (or at least your interpretation of it) is infallible.
quote:
God isn't so stupid as to leave the eternal salvation or damnation of souls in the prideful, corruptible, fickle hands of any human, save the nail-scarred hands of One who is incorruptible and faithful
Amen brother! That is why he sent us the Holy Spirit. Jesus would never have commissioned his ministers with His healing power of forgiveness unless he also granted them the power of the Holy Spirit. Why do you think he breathed on them???
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
And b.t.w., my confessor doesn't wear a pointy hat and rather than being prideful, corruptable, and fickle is actually quite humble, honest, and wise, and offers great counsel (for free!). But it's not really him but the power of the Holy Spirit working through him.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 3:41:53 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2919
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wkirscher
quote:
No, this is not true. This verse doesn't give anyone authority to forgive sins in the sense you are trying to make it. It gives believers the authority to declare the certainty of a sinner's forgiveness by God the Father because of the work of Jesus the Son if that person has repented and embraced the Gospel. Likewise, believers are able to declare with certainty that those who haven't repented and embraced the Gospel are not forgiven.
ManimalX - and you accused me of biblical eisegesis when I gave a very thorough exegetical treatment of Mt. 16 and Is 22:22!!!! Don’t read Protestant man-made tradition into God’s Word. Read what it says! Jesus breathed on his disciples and said “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." Jesus very clearly grants a special authority to the disciples he commissioned to be leaders of the church. Where in the text does it say what you claim it says? How can you accurately grade papers or write papers on Pauline letters if you are going to interject your own man made tradition into God’s Word?
Jesus says: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven”.
ManimalX says: No. Jesus didn’t really mean that. What he really meant was all believers have the authority …
Jesus says: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood …..” and “This IS my body …. This IS my blood…”
ManimalX says: No. Jesus didn’t really mean that. What he really meant was ….
This sure sounds a lot like what I heard from the pulpit of my “bible only” fellowships. The pastor or “biblical scholar” reads a verse or two and then tells us what it “really means”.
wkirscher:
Here is a conversation between myself and a non-believer:
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MANIMAL: Jimmy Joe Bob, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for your sins? Do you turn away from your sins and ask Jesus to forgive them?
JIMMY JOE BOB: Yes, yes I do. Jesus Christ is Lord!
MANIMAL: Then your sins are forgiven and you are now adopted into the family of Christ! Welcome, brother!
<interlude while the angels celebrate> 
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TA-DA! I just exercised John 20:23 in real life!
And, I didn't even have to sit on a fancy chair and wear a pointy hat! Isn't the simple power of the Gospel wonderful?
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 3:56:07 AM
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wkirscher
Posts: 402
Joined: 3/28/2009
Status: offline
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ManimalX –
So you are telling me that Luther, the father of the “Reformation”, using scripture alone, was wrong to teach of a real physical presence? Yes or no??? All of the other ECFs were wrong as well? Yes or no???
And what of the Presbyterians and Reformed Church who profess a spiritual presence in the bread and wine? Were they, using scripture alone wrong? Yes or no??? Are only those who hold to a “symbolic presence” correct? Yes or no????
quote:
Communion is pretty simple. Jesus told us to do it in remembrance of Him.
Yes, I’m aware that many Protestants believe it is “pretty simple”. ( I got a pretty good dose of it's "simplicity" at the wedding ceremony I went to last weekend) It’s so simple to them that they don’t even have a good answer to why bread and wine (or grape juice I guess) are used other than “well that’s what Jesus used”. It’s so simple to them that they don’t even bother to celebrate it every week like the early Christians did.
And yes, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. He also promised he would be with us until the end of time. He also said “This IS my body …. This IS my blood …”. The Real Presence of God was in the Ark, it was in the burning bush, and it was in the pillar of smoke. And the Real Presence remains with us in the New and Everlasting Covenant. And yet God remains omnipresent and not confined to anything. It is a great mystery that I certainly cannot understand but I accept it on faith.
< Message edited by wkirscher -- 10/27/2009 4:03:51 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 4:21:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5218
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
However, RC will then turn right around and contradictorily declare its priests continue to immolate and offer this same blood - daily.
According to the RCC, they do not offer the 'blood'. It is Christ who offers himself, not the church. Please, the priest stands in the "person of Christ"...so, the priest is the one doing the sacrificing:
"the ministerial priest stands In Persona Christi Capitis (in the Person of Christ the Head)."Source
Has RC ever censored this blasphemous priest who wrote the following?....nope, they gave him kudos instead...
"The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest's command."
quote:
From "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatas Redintegratio" -- coming out of Vatican II
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. So, if this is saying what you think it's saying - you've got yourself one very fallible church. Even though they are more than fallible, you will not find any place where RC has rescinded even one anathema.
Not to mention it is one very anti-biblical church since it now declares that belief in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is not necessary. Perfectly all right with RC, if people think the Lord is nothing but a lesser prophet.
Of course, the Lord Jesus Christ disagrees with RC - big time:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 4:22:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5218
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Heck, Rome sends its own people to hell if they don't make their "Easter duty".
The Church can send no one to hell - only God's just judgment can do that...
The rest of your posts were even less accurate than the sentence quoted above.... LOL....of course they're sending them to hell - everytime they pronounced MORTAL sin for eating that boloney sandwich or any other phony-boloney "commandments of the church".
quote:
...the rest of us have to go by what and how you choose to post... Hmm, let's how some RCs choose to post. Ignore all scriptural passges, ignore all ECF's writings that contradict RC ideas....and most of all ignore "logic and coherence" all the while clamoring for some.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 7:56:57 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3604
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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ManimalX,
quote:
We all know the honest Roman Catholic answer is "no, you are headed to hell because you are outside of the REAL church", but 1) they are afraid to say it out loud and 2) if they did, it would probably violate TOS as "questioning someone's salvation".
You are right.........no is the real Roman Catholic answer! That is why they had so many anathemas and an anathema actually meant something.
If they answered that we did have life within us they would have to explain past the same Scripture they gave as to how we have this life. Where did we get it if we did not eat their magical crackers and drink their fantasy wine? The correct answer for them to give according to Scripture and their faulty understanding is that people with faith in Jesus Christ are as dead as door nails unless they participate in the effectual flesh and blood eating ritual. Pretty sad really. That is why they had no problem in days gone by of persecuting anyone that disagreed with them. They would rather confiscate any materials that taught contrary and silence any tongue that tried to speak contrary. They would love to do the same here I am sure! Notice that when we speak opposed to their doctrine many would hope that we were silenced? The only ones they really want to speak are those on their side or any that pose no threat to their doctrine!
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Yet another freedom we have as naughty "protesters" is that we don't have to worry about judging the salvation of others or declare folks as hell-bound because their works don't measure up.
Yep! Those in Christ are saved and those not in Christ are not saved. Adding all the different kinds of garbage that the RCC adds is really what it is in relation to Jesus Christ. Everything else is garbage and He is more than enough.
People are justified by faith in Jesus Christ and I can assure you we will always have millions upon millions of people that will never think that is enough. It is too simple and there must be something we as sinful rotten creatures can do to add something to that finished work He must not have finished.
No one needs to dream that wafers have changed into Jesus Christ and no one needs to pretend with millions upon millions of delusional people that they are drinking blood when it is nothing more than wine. People in Jesus Christ can count their ritual and all the anathema doctrines that go along with their ritual as ineffectual, meaningless, fraudulent, and a hoax.
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We realize the truth that man doesn't judge man in matters of salvation, that one man, regardless of how pointy his hat is, doesn't control the salvation of any other man.
You are right. No one needs to turn to the pope.
Galatians 2 had some important things to say in regard to their mis-understanding and how it continues just as days of old;
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
That irks them to no end! It irks them just as it irks so many other people of the world. How can you be justified before God by putting faith in Jesus Christ when you ignore the pages and pages of Roman Catholic garbage that we must do to be justified?
You can declare that Jesus Christ is enough and they will wonder why you dont submit to their pope, bow to Mary, pray to Mary, salute images, chant, eat their wafers, bypass purgatory, skip their magical waters being poured over your head, and all the other things they think you need to do to be justified. To them Jesus is not enough. He lacks big time! And when the hammer hits the nail in the most basic form of their doctrine you and I are heretics and anathema! We have turned to Jesus Christ apart from all their rituals and we are anathema! 
quote:
It really is a joyful experience to live out a life free from voluminous dusty old man-made rules and regulations, and instead to live only as Jesus would have us: under His easy yoke and light burden, free in the Spirit and free indeed.
Amen to that! Amen!
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Christianity is actually pretty easy, folks. It is man in his shortsightedness and ignorance and lust for power that decides to complicate things with unnecessary bureaucracy.
Amen to that!
Jesus Christ is never enough to some, and He is more than enough to many.
From a fellow heretic,
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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