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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 5:34:19 PM
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JaredMeister
Posts: 206
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:
Who is William Webster, and why should I care what he has to say on the subject?
I can get my 8 year old nephew to type something up on this, as well - pro-Assumption, of course.
I'll post the link when he gets finished......
This kind of thinking really discredits your arguments. So, only Catholics have any knowledge? That's really insulting and stupid. Your 8-year old hasn't spent years studying history and theology.
Why should I listen to you? Who are you?
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 6:00:55 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 755
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
quote:
Who is William Webster, and why should I care what he has to say on the subject?
I can get my 8 year old nephew to type something up on this, as well - pro-Assumption, of course.
I'll post the link when he gets finished......
This kind of thinking really discredits your arguments. So, only Catholics have any knowledge? That's really insulting and stupid. Your 8-year old hasn't spent years studying history and theology.
Why should I listen to you? Who are you?
I'm going to echo his question. Who's William Webster? What is his background? Is he a theologian? What's his education background?
I'm asking simply because I've no clue who he is. Is he related to the dictionary guy?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 6:02:50 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
Why should I listen to you? Who are you?
Someone who has Faithfully practiced Christianity in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church....
...for 43 years.
I suppose my point was to perhaps give us an introduction that this is William Webster who holds a Ph.D. in Theology from Harvard and is currently the professor of Theological studies at Dartmouth....
Any fool can go to register.com, grab a URL and start posting to a website. As you well know, there are plenty out there that discuss their own particular intepretations of "theology".
I cite my teaching of my Faith as coming from a collection of men and woman who have dedicated themselves fully to the religious life, and who practically "wrote the book" on the modern interpretations of the the particular Faith and theologies to which I subscribe - those being that which is defned for the Faithful who choose to assent to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
I concede to you that Lurker asked the same question that I actually had, in a much more charitable manner.
It is noted that your linked article has a number of what I call "classic red flags"when attempting to uncover mythology, namely that it doesn't actually quote or cite from the works that supposedly make the writer's points, but references entire works in an omnibus-type manner, thus leaving the researcher the task of sifting through the entire work to attempt to find the one sentence to which the writer is referring. It also is noted that Mr. Webster lapses into referencing himself (other linked pages authored by him) to make his points. Not really subjecting his hypothesis to much criticism by doing this, is he?
< Message edited by GoodME -- 4/26/2005 6:30:48 PM >
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 6:03:41 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: A Roman Catholic Dogma Originating with Heretics and Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries.
Who is William Webster, and why should I care what he has to say on the subject?
I can get my 8 year old nephew to type something up on this, as well - pro-Assumption, of course.
I'll post the link when he gets finished......
AHHHHHHHHHH..........thanks for the giggle, GoodMe. *chuckle*
You're always fun (even when we disagree).
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 9:36:21 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
George, I don't think we're going to get very far with each other. I'm going to take a bit of a break.
Toolman & Sdaw, thanks for the earlier explanations.
I'm going to resort to posting some articles. Enjoy 
THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: A Roman Catholic Dogma Originating with Heretics and Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries.
Dear Jared,
These books also speak about Christ. Is belief in Him heretical as well? I think not. The condemnation is for the heretics and their heretical writings. Even among the tares there is wheat.
On the Feast of Pope St. Cletus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 10:09:02 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
This kind of thinking really discredits your arguments. So, only Catholics have any knowledge? That's really insulting and stupid. Your 8-year old hasn't spent years studying history and theology.
Why should I listen to you? Who are you?
I am sure that GoodMe will agree that there are a lot of other people out there besides Catholics who have knowledge. However, you may choose not to believe it, but the Catholic Church has a lot of knowledge behind it as well. It has produced some of the worlds most intelligent Christians (St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas should ring a bell) plus some of the most amazing disciples Christianity has ever seen (es. St. Francis of Assisi). On top of that, its magesterium can trace its roots back to the original apostles themselves and the Church history has shown it to be a "body of believers" that has subsisted through all kinds of turmoils and still manages to be the most united and largest Christian denomination in the world. With 1.2 billion members, no other Church can compare.
Still, I agree with you that other people have a lot of prestige and credentials so the question remains: who is the guy who wrote this article? Why should I trust what he says? What is the group that he is with?
< Message edited by ToolmanUF -- 4/27/2005 2:36:28 AM >
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2005 1:13:24 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
OK, probably better to ask a Catholic than this William Webster fellow, so:
My daughter tells me she has been selected to put flowers on Mary's head at mass on monday as part of the "crowning of Mary".
What is this event? Does it have anything to do with the assupmption? I guess you don't have to be Catholic to participate in this thing-
She was pretty tickled - got to do a scripture reading at mass today. How about that, Protestant girl make good! 
Dear ayani,
May is traditionally, meaning by custom, not doctrine, the month of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In many places, a statue of the Blessed Virgin is crowned to show honor to the Blessed Virgin, the person, not the statue. It is an example of popular piety. Let the posts crying "Idolatry! Look at the idolatry!' begin.
A May crowning has nothing to do with Assumption directly, except to say that the former is honor rendered to Mary by people, and the second is honor rendered to her by God.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2005 12:01:06 PM
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ayani
Posts: 63
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear ayani,
May is traditionally, meaning by custom, not doctrine, the month of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In many places, a statue of the Blessed Virgin is crowned to show honor to the Blessed Virgin, the person, not the statue. It is an example of popular piety. Let the posts crying "Idolatry! Look at the idolatry!' begin.
A May crowning has nothing to do with Assumption directly, except to say that the former is honor rendered to Mary by people, and the second is honor rendered to her by God.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Thanks SDAW-
Oh, I wasn't trying to bait you - it was a sincere question.
So it doesn't commemorate an event, but is a general show of adoration?
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2005 12:33:00 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ayani
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear ayani,
May is traditionally, meaning by custom, not doctrine, the month of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In many places, a statue of the Blessed Virgin is crowned to show honor to the Blessed Virgin, the person, not the statue. It is an example of popular piety. Let the posts crying "Idolatry! Look at the idolatry!' begin.
A May crowning has nothing to do with Assumption directly, except to say that the former is honor rendered to Mary by people, and the second is honor rendered to her by God.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Thanks SDAW-
Oh, I wasn't trying to bait you - it was a sincere question.
So it doesn't commemorate an event, but is a general show of adoration?
Dear ayani,
I know it is an honest question, and I didn't feel baited by you. I know what some other posters will say, so, I was inviting them to get on with it.
We Catholics, and the Orthodox as well, call it hyperdulia, which is the veneration which may be licitly given to the Blessed Virgin, and distinct from latria which is given only to God. We venerate the Blessed Virgin, but we do not adore her, nor worship her.
You are correct, a May Crowning does not commemorate an event, but is a show of respect and love for the Blessed Virgin.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2005 3:37:17 PM
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ayani
Posts: 63
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear ayani,
We venerate the Blessed Virgin, but we do not adore her, nor worship her.
Sdaw:
My mistake- I was under the impression adoration was the word you used. I'm sure someone has already explained the distinction between adoration and veneration (and worship) in one of these "Mary" threads - I'll look around-
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2005 7:33:55 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL:
My daughter tells me she has been selected to put flowers on Mary's head at mass on monday as part of the "crowning of Mary".
What is this event? Does it have anything to do with the assupmption? I guess you don't have to be Catholic to participate in this thing-
This ceremony is probally used to reflect the Catholic belief that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, which goes right along with the assumption. Dogma states that at the end of her life she was taken up to be with the Lord and was seated at the right hand of her son, Jesus, who crowned her the Queen of his Kingdom. There really is no scriptural proof for this belief, but it is based on reasoning and "assumptions." :)
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2005 7:43:09 PM
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montfort
Posts: 5
Joined: 5/1/2005
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Yes , it is to commerate the Blessed Mother`s Coronation as Queen of Heaven.
And May is generally acknowledged in honor of her.
We only have adoration and worship to God. The Trinity.
Mary is honored.
As Scripture says, All generations shall call me blessed.
We call her blessed.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/5/2005 2:52:35 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 755
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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As a quick posting...
One reason that Catholic believe that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven is due to her sinlessness. Since Mary was without sin, she didn't need to suffer the penalty of bodily decay. So it would seem that part of the belief of the Assumption comes about from the belief in Mary's sinlessness.
As an interesting side note, while I don't believe our Orthodox bretheren hold to the belief of Mary's bodily assumption, they do believe her body didn't really decay. She "fell asleep" according to what little I know. This of course doesn't contradict Catholic teachings about the Assumption since her Assumption could have happened after she fell asleep.
Granted, I could be wrong about the beliefs of the Orthodox, so if a more knowledgable Catholic or Orthodox Christian knows more, please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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[Deleted] - 3/24/2006 2:10:04 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 10:54:45 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
As a quick posting...
One reason that Catholic believe that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven is due to her sinlessness. Since Mary was without sin, she didn't need to suffer the penalty of bodily decay. So it would seem that part of the belief of the Assumption comes about from the belief in Mary's sinlessness.
Huh? If I recall the Bible says that "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", "and the wages of sin is DEATH".
I don't remember the Bible putting (except Mary) in that quote.
quote:
Yes , it is to commerate the Blessed Mother`s Coronation as Queen of Heaven.
And who coronated her Queen of Heaven?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 12:21:33 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1093
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
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She isn't exempt from death. She fell asleep in the Lord and was buried not far from Christ's tomb. On the way to bury her there was practically a riot as those who hated Christ tried to disrupt the funeral procession and drag her body from the bier. One was the Chief priest and his hand was paralized the instant he touched her to drag her down. He soon repented, was converted and healed. St. Thomas was a couple of days late arriving for the burial and wished to pay his last respects to the Mother of the Lord and they opened the tomb for him but when they did it was empty.
Very perplexed the Apostles went back to her house where they all beheld her in a vision where she told them Christ her Son had ressurected her and taken her to be with Him and crowned her as Queen...which is consistant with the David custom of the queen mother reigning as queen of the land. Anyway she said would be ever praying for them and the Church.
And that was the beginning of the Church's formal veneration of the Blessed Theotokos.
So as you can see she did not excape death but was resurrected and glorified as will be all the faithful one day...she just got to do it first. And even in my most devout and anti-catholic Protestant days I could not begrudge her that. She is probably the most important person in human history after Christ. I suppose you could say Adam and Eve come before since they are our first parents, but where they messed up, the blessed Theotokos got it right and became the Living Ark overshadowed by God's Grace and became the mother of the Lord, God incarnate, Jesus Christ the only Begotton of the Father, Son of God and Son of Man. So through her our salvation was brought forth...which kind of trumps our original forebearers.
Some might object that this story is not told in scripture. All I can say is a lot of the history of what the Apostles and early Christian's did and the grace they knew is not recorded in Scripture...which doesn't mean it didn't matter or that it was forgotten. It did matter, and bits of it were remembered...like how each of the Apostles died, and this is one of those bits...what happened when the Blessed Theotokos reposed.
Nothing in the story detracts from Christ or is in any way implausable or inconsistant with what is revealed in Scripture. It has been believed by the Church for centuries as the true is somewhat condensed account of those events. Now what these things mean is another question that many have and contiune to debate.
So to say the mother of our Lord was assumed into heaven just strikes me as a great and generous thing to do by the Lord, and truly appropriate.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 1:03:30 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
Status: offline
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Soxfan,
quote:
Huh? If I recall the Bible says that "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", "and the wages of sin is DEATH".
I don't remember the Bible putting (except Mary) in that quote.
Does it say "execpt Jesus" in your Bible? "All" is a pronoun. What does "all" relate to and where does Scripture tell you that? Do you know what Scripture Paul is quoting in Romans 3:23?
quote:
And who coronated her Queen of Heaven?
I would assume the King of Heaven would have had that honor.
We probably won't see eye-to-eye on this or much else. I am a Yankee fan!
In Christ, George
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 3:01:34 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Soxfan,
And who coronated her Queen of Heaven?
I would assume the King of Heaven would have had that honor.
We probably won't see eye-to-eye on this or much else. I am a Yankee fan!
In Christ, George
So now Mary as queen is on equal ground with the King of Heaven....Interesting
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 4:34:11 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 755
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Soxfan,
And who coronated her Queen of Heaven?
I would assume the King of Heaven would have had that honor.
We probably won't see eye-to-eye on this or much else. I am a Yankee fan!
In Christ, George
So now Mary as queen is on equal ground with the King of Heaven....Interesting
Nope. The title is honourific.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 3/24/2006 5:16:45 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1093
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
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No she is not on greater or equal footing with the King.
The place of the Davidic queen mother as the queen was to serve as the verification of the King's legitimacy.
Similarly the Blessed Virgin as Theotokos, the God bearing is living witness to the truth of the Incarnation, that God became man, that He who was born of her is indeed the Savior...true man of true man. His humanity is our humanity because her humanity is our humanity and He got His from her.
The Davidic Queen mother also served as a special counselor to the king and had his ear above all others. And so does the blessed Theotokos as was demonstrated both at the wedding of Cana and at the foot of cross,...where in one she made a request of Christ on behalf of another and the latter where she asked nothing at all when she could have and been heard, which silence was for the sake of us all.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 2/19/2007 7:29:42 PM
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yeshuahs_Servant
Posts: 3
Joined: 2/15/2007
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Mary while indeed is the Mother of Jesus in the Flesh, is not Diety and therefore is of a sinful nature as all of us. Jesus Christ is the only Sinless Man whom while man is fully God , to walk on this Earth. We are not to pray to the Father by no other name than Jesus. There is no Biblical reference to the contrary. Jesus himself states I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, by no other means can you come unto the Father but by ME. While, I Differ on the validity of Mary being anything more than an Earthly Vessel whom our Savior was concieved through by the Holy Spirit. I will say, she is a virtuous woman, as was Joseph, the Father of Jesus in the Flesh(Legal Guardian by the laws) a virtuous Man. May God Bless his People.
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