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ORIGINAL: montfort

Now,

You are out of context.

We are given our conscience to show us right from wrong Rom 2. It is God given. And to him that knoweth to do good, and does it not to him it it sin . James4:17

You equate concern (worrying) with sin. If you had a worry with a parents health and said a prayer, are you sinning cause you are concerned and prayed?

The context is if one knows to do good, by faith one knows, and doesnt do it then that is sin to that person.
If we have faith in something and know it is right to do, and do it not, then it is sin. And if we have faith and know it is not the right thing to do and do it anyway, then it is sin.

We have our conscience, the word of God and the whole deposit of faith to know "in faith" what we are to do and what is sin.

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I do not equate worrying with sin. If I worry about the health and well being of a lost child, my worry is well founded. Disaster may have befallen such. However, If God had given me a promise that same child would sit upon the throne of David, then for me to worry would be to doubt the fullfillment of God's promise. Such doubt gives birth to sin as it did when Eve was tempted to doubt God's command. The young Jesus asked Mary a very pointed question. "Why were you searching for me?" What had Mary forgotten that she didn't know where Jesus would be found?

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ORIGINAL: onelordofall

NIF,

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I do not equate worrying with sin. If I worry about the health and well being of a lost child, my worry is well founded. Disaster may have befallen such. However, If God had given me a promise that same child would sit upon the throne of David, then for me to worry would be to doubt the fullfillment of God's promise. Such doubt gives birth to sin as it did when Eve was tempted to doubt God's command. The young Jesus asked Mary a very pointed question. "Why were you searching for me?" What had Mary forgotten that she didn't know where Jesus would be found?

By your own admission, you equate parental "worry" with "doubt," yet you are unwilling to label your own worry "about the health and well being of a lost child" as "doubt." Interesting. Where do you find this "doubt" you speak of in Scripture alone? I'd love to hear how you come to such a conclusion.

I find it ironic that given your view of parental responsibility you cannot recognize a rather rebellious teenager as disobedient to the wishes of His parents. Certainly, He is without sin, but to try to pin "sin" on His mother in this instance is ludicrous. Since when does our Father condemn to hell the mother who is concerned for the well-being of her teenage son? Wow, NIF. You must find a better way if you plan to refute the doctrine and still maintain your dignity.

God bless,

Michael

Be back as soon as I can ...

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The only person who does not need salvation is the person who is sinless and who therefore has not fallen short of God's glory.

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ORIGINAL: bridgefin

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The only person who does not need salvation is the person who is sinless and who therefore has not fallen short of God's glory.

Not necessarily. Had God preserved Mary from all sin by grace at the time of her conception, then He would have truly been her savior for, otherwise, she would be in the same pit of sin as the rest of mankind. Having a savior does not demand that one has sinned, only that one would have sinned had she not been saved. No joke.

In Christ, George

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Mary herself never stated she was sinless and neither did any of the N.T. writers, whether Peter, Paul, or John.

And if God would choose deliberately to preserve someone from all sin by grace at birth, He could have done it to me and to you. But He didn't. And, He didn't do it with the dozens of billions of humans who have lived on Earth.

He chose instead that Jesus would die so that we could be reconciled to Him.

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

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Mary herself never stated she was sinless and neither did any of the N.T. writers, whether Peter, Paul, or John.

And if God would choose deliberately to preserve someone from all sin by grace at birth, He could have done it to me and to you. But He didn't. And, He didn't do it with the dozens of billions of humans who have lived on Earth.

He chose instead that Jesus would die so that we could be reconciled to Him.

Luke recounts the angel Gabriel telling Mary, "Hail Mary full of grace!"

Sure seems like she was considered without sin there.

And God preserved Mary before she sinned because she is unique in all human history. She is the new Eve, the ark of the New Covenant. The role given to her in the act of Salvation is unique.

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

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ORIGINAL: jrah06
Hello,

The KJV says "highly favoured." Doesn't mean anything about being preserved from sin.

The KJV is a highly inaccurate translation. I'd recommend a better one. :)

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We are filled by God's grace upon our salvation when the Holy Spirit touches us and JUSTIFICATION occurs - but taht does not mean we are made sinless permanently.

As for God preserving Mary - please provide Scriptural proof for that. As for being unique - one of the OT prophets never tasted death but was carried to heaven by a chariot of fire. That was unique in all human history. but we are not to make a big deal out of that.

"New Eve" - no Scriptural reference to taht.

Ark of the New covenant... JESUS was all we needed as far as covenants go.

role in salvation ... she played NO ROLE AT ALL IN OUR SALVATION other than being blessed among women for having borne Christ when He was born as a baby on Earth. JESUS is the One Who died on teh ross and Who rose again. Not Mary.

First, show me where the scriptures require everything to be found in scriptures before it must be considered true. Second, find "the Trinity" in the scriptures as well.

Then I'll explain the concept of Mary being the New Eve. :)

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ORIGINAL: jrah06

Lurker,

I also would like to know what role Mary played in God's plan of salvation OTHER than her having borne the Christ Child. She wasn't crucified and she didn't pay for our sins.

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I also would like to know what role Mary played in God's plan of salvation OTHER than her having borne the Christ Child. She wasn't crucified and she didn't pay for our sins.

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

[Edited by Admin.]

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ORIGINAL: jrah06
Lurker,

Look at the last verses of Revelation. We're not supposed to add.

Besides, Genesis indicates a multi-personal Deity. Spirit of God. "... become like one of Us." And Jesus said it, John 17 ... "Father the hour has come... glorify me with teh glory I had with You before the world was." And the Bible refers to teh Holy Spirit as a Person.

As for the KJV's accuracy - I disagree. Its language may sound arcane in 2005, but it is a valid translation.

Now please show me where you got your new Eve, etc. doctrines.

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ORIGINAL: caur

Doesn't Romans 3:23 say that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Didn't Christ say that He did not come to save the righteous? Does that mean that salvation did not extend to Mary? How could Mary have received the gift of salvation by the atoning blood of Christ if she never sinned? If Mary was sinless, then she is not covered by the Blood. Wouldn't a sinless Mary have meant that there are/were TWO sacrifices capable of atoning for the sins of mankind? Mary was not without sin in her life. To believe such makes the Word of God a lie and the necessity and power of Christ's sacrifice unnecessary since Mary could have done the same thing for mankind. Christ had to be born of a natural woman in order to be born into the same sinful nature that the rest of us were in order to overcome it and be the atoning sacrifice. Remember in Genesis when woman was told that she would be saved through child-bearing?

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ORIGINAL: Lurker

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ORIGINAL: jrah06
Lurker,

Look at the last verses of Revelation. We're not supposed to add.

Besides, Genesis indicates a multi-personal Deity. Spirit of God. "... become like one of Us." And Jesus said it, John 17 ... "Father the hour has come... glorify me with teh glory I had with You before the world was." And the Bible refers to teh Holy Spirit as a Person.

As for the KJV's accuracy - I disagree. Its language may sound arcane in 2005, but it is a valid translation.

Now please show me where you got your new Eve, etc. doctrines.

I'll have to dig around for my notes, but there's plenty of scriptural support for Mary being the "New Eve" Unfortunately, due to my VERY hectic workday I doubt I'll get to it until later this evening, if at all. *remembers that he has RCIA class*
Well, I'll try to post the scripture support tonight, but please be patient if it doesn't happen tonight. :) Work is hectic and I have class tonight.

That said, you never did point out where it said that scripture support is all that is needed for a doctrine to be considered sound. Where in the scriptures does it say that something must be found in scripture to be believed?

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I'll have to dig around for my notes, but there's plenty of scriptural support for Mary being the "New Eve" Unfortunately, due to my VERY hectic workday I doubt I'll get to it until later this evening, if at all. *remembers that he has RCIA class*
Well, I'll try to post the scripture support tonight, but please be patient if it doesn't happen tonight. :) Work is hectic and I have class tonight.

That said, you never did point out where it said that scripture support is all that is needed for a doctrine to be considered sound. Where in the scriptures does it say that something must be found in scripture to be believed?

_____________________________

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther

My journal

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ORIGINAL: sdaw

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ORIGINAL: caur

Doesn't Romans 3:23 say that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Didn't Christ say that He did not come to save the righteous? Does that mean that salvation did not extend to Mary? How could Mary have received the gift of salvation by the atoning blood of Christ if she never sinned? If Mary was sinless, then she is not covered by the Blood. Wouldn't a sinless Mary have meant that there are/were TWO sacrifices capable of atoning for the sins of mankind? Mary was not without sin in her life. To believe such makes the Word of God a lie and the necessity and power of Christ's sacrifice unnecessary since Mary could have done the same thing for mankind. Christ had to be born of a natural woman in order to be born into the same sinful nature that the rest of us were in order to overcome it and be the atoning sacrifice. Remember in Genesis when woman was told that she would be saved through child-bearing?

Dear caur,

Mary's preservation from Originan Sin, and her sinlessness was God's gift to her, the application in advance of Christ's saving work.
Man does not have a sinful nature. Man's nature is in a fallen condition. Christ was born with man's true nature. Only in this way could He be Savior, not saved.

On the Feast of St. Francis Jerome
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!

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ORIGINAL: jrah06
Jesus referred to the Word as a source of authority; He quoted the O.T. during His ministry.

2 Tim. 3:16 also points to Scripture as a source of authority - and reproof and correction.

And, we are told in the Bible not to believe a different gospel.

The Bible also has a part where God talks about men and their traditions in a way taht means God is displeased with those traditions. NOW, there is another part in which traditions are mentioned in a favorable light - but these traditions, and all others, must be submitted to the final authority of the WORD OF GOD as a standard, as a measuring stick.