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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/16/2007 12:11:17 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faceinthecrowd
As with sexuality I believe that gender identity is a choice. I would not want to live in a world were it isn't. Tradition (not God and not Medical Science) has assigned people with certain body parts certain gender rolls.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
It would seem you are incorrect. From the beginning God has made man and woman and created within them the nature we hold.
We are not talking about women that like to hunt, or men that like to sew. What we are talking about is people who lack the restraint to give into behavior that promotes dishonestly and is against the very principles of denying self found in scripture.
Barring a problem, the "XX" or "XY" has the final say. You may not like it, you may change the phyisical manifestation of it, bu the XX or XY will always be the same.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/16/2007 1:37:23 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 928
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I've been thinking off and on about this subject over the weekent and heard a sermon that seemed to make sense.. and a point which I touched on earlier.
As we come to Jesus, we come as a sinner, no matter what the sin is - lying, stealing, cheating, sexual sin, and we come to Jesus even as a 'good person" and we come to him - hetero or homo-sexual, and somewheres in between.
now, I am not in another person's shoes, and I have wrestled with similar things regarding lifestyles. I dont know how to answer, other than bring yourself to Jesus, surrender all, and here is the key what I learned over the weekend -
whatever state you are in - surrender all. Even if you think its something that is dear to you - surrender all. Even if you think it is a basic part of you - Surrender all even on things you hold dear - so that it is not a god to you. Surrender your precious car to God, surrender your finances to God, surrender your habits to God, surrender your femaleness and maleness to God, surrender all. Surrender everything about you to God, so that nothing can hold onto you and you are a slave to it. Surrender your "good deeds" ,, surrender your sin, surrender your likes and dislikes, your habits, your free time, your freedom. Give it all to God. its not a matter of "right" or "wrong" .. surrendering is a diffferent matter of giving your whole self to God.
if theres anything that you wish to hold onto, that you cant give up, then you have not died to yourself totally. I think that is the key to going on with the Lord. If God is dealing with you to surrender something, and you cant do it, then you need to surrender it. whatever it is. that will cover anything that we want to hold on to or justify whether it is right or wrong.
it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong,, if we hold onto it, then we are not surrendering all to God. And it can turn into a stronghold, or another god.
Thats all I can think of for now.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/18/2007 9:36:46 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/6/2008 4:18:41 PM
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Schala
Posts: 11
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quote:
Barring a problem, the "XX" or "XY" has the final say. You may not like it, you may change the phyisical manifestation of it, bu the XX or XY will always be the same.
The thing is, karyotyping has issues:
1) Not as precise as we might think
2) Not routinely done unless some issue comes to attention that might put the assumption of a karyotype in question (for example, a man having gynecomastia, the doctor might think they have XXY genes and test for it, if gynecomastia did not happen, doctor would not test for it).
3) Is a rather recent discovery from the 20th century, and therefore the Bible, being 2000 years old, could not predict anything based on knowledge (karyotype) that did not exist at the time, with regards to science.
4) Ignores certain intersex conditions (like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)
5) Is said to supersede all other factors without proof.
As for 5), I have a friend who is a chimera, raised as male, but with XY/XX chromosomes, both ovaries and testes (2 of each). Which sex are they?
--------
I had a karyotype done for myself in 2006 (ordered by a doctor suspecting something). The result? Although a low sample of blood, the result was 46,XY. It's very possible that I have mosaicism (blood karyotyping suffers from possible under-sampling, enough so to completely miss mosaicism often enough, even my friend mentioned at 5) above, has been shown to have XY chromosomes at times, and XY/XX at others, via blood karyotyping).
That my cells have 46,XY and male external genitalia only shows a probability of fertility in the male way, though that probability has never been verified and am most likely (and have always been) infertile.
I never fully developed through puberty, which is why I caused confusion (too androgynous-looking) throughout my teenage years, and up until I transitioned. I don't know exactly the cause of this underdevelopment, and it has not been tested.
All I know is that, sans make-up and wearing pants and a t-shirt, I'll be seen as a girl over 99% of the time. I see myself as one, and present as one, also.
I've been baptized Catholic, and have done first communion and confirmation, almost as a matter of tradition, as a child. However, I haven't been present in a church except for other familial events (first communion, confirmation), since I was about 10 or 11 years old. I'm in my mid 20s now.
I'm not against Christianity, Catholicism (or other denominations), but there is no chance that I would change back. I changed and it is the only reason I did not suicide. I also doubt that even if I did change back, I would be able to present as other than androgynously (whatever clothes I wore), which some find unsettling in itself (being unable to tell wether someone is male or female).
If the only way I was accepted by a church community was by changing back, then I do not find it appealing to even go to the church.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/18/2008 4:13:19 PM
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jkdjr25
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I'm going to step in for a moment and speak my mind on this issue because it's one that's been on my mind for a long time.
I'm not sure if crossdressing in and of itself is a sin. Clothes are just clothes and they don't make the person. Most crossdressers are heterosexuals who just happen to feel more comfortable dressing as the opposite sex from time to time. As long as they aren't hurting anyone I tend to think this falls into the category of things Paul told us not to argue about. What is unclean for one person may not be unclean for another. I might be wrong but God hasn't led me to believe so.
If a crossdresser was actively portraying themselves as a woman in order to seduce and be actively deceptive in a sexual manner, then I think you could definitely say that was a sin. Since that's not the norm I have to say that I'm not convinced that it is because most crossdressers aren't looking to cause trouble when they're out dressed. They just want to be left alone, to live, laugh and love and be loved.
It's important to note, as others have, that transgenderism is a broad category that encompasses many types of people. Crossdressers don't dress all the time, though it does tend to be mostly when they're home with their spouse or when they're alone. Transvestites tend to dress full time, but like crossdressers, they know that they're men and most of them are straight. Transexuals tend to live as the opposite sex because they believe that they've been born in the wrong body. We don't really know enough about the human mind to determine why this is but it does happen. They don't see themselves as being gay because they don't seem themselves as the gender they were born as. To them the only unnatural thing is their body and it's something they try to correct.
There are others that fall into the transgendered category but we should really educate ourselves on multiple levels so that a proper discernment can be made. Though we certainly shouldn't act judgmental of these people because we're all sinners and we've all fallen short of the glory of God.
Anyway this is just how I view things.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/18/2008 5:13:47 PM
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Bluethread
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If a man thinks he is a dog, and their are those who do, do we allow them to live like a dog and have surgery to look like a dog?
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/18/2008 5:33:18 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 757
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If a man thinks he is a dog, and their are those who do, do we allow them to live like a dog and have surgery to look like a dog?
Ah yes, the animal analogy. Completely unrelated to this and a poor attempt at a dodge.
Transexual people don't just "think" that they're the wrong gender. They're hormones and other biological factors tell them that they are. It's not having an opinion, for these people it's their entire sense of self and you shouldn't trivialize it so callously.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 12:46:53 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1273
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Ah yes, the animal analogy. Completely unrelated to this and a poor attempt at a dodge.
Transexual people don't just "think" that they're the wrong gender. They're hormones and other biological factors tell them that they are. It's not having an opinion, for these people it's their entire sense of self and you shouldn't trivialize it so callously.
 -- Although I've discovered that most here (at least, seemingly) don't care about biology.
I'm not one of them though. I agree with you-- in that there may be a legitimate problem in that area.
Oh, here we go again. Lets look for what may be a cause of behavior, neglecting the fact that behavior stems from choices which arise from the moral foundation of our being. If it's a sin issue, a matter of right and wrong, why do we soend so much time, effort and money looking for causes that might be in our body chemistry. Seems to me we're saying that God makes mistakes simply to ignore the fact that our sinful nature can lead to some pretty bizarre thinking.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 12:53:57 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 757
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Ah yes, the animal analogy. Completely unrelated to this and a poor attempt at a dodge.
Transexual people don't just "think" that they're the wrong gender. They're hormones and other biological factors tell them that they are. It's not having an opinion, for these people it's their entire sense of self and you shouldn't trivialize it so callously.
-- Although I've discovered that most here (at least, seemingly) don't care about biology.
I'm not one of them though. I agree with you-- in that there may be a legitimate problem in that area.
Oh, here we go again. Lets look for what may be a cause of behavior, neglecting the fact that behavior stems from choices which arise from the moral foundation of our being. If it's a sin issue, a matter of right and wrong, why do we soend so much time, effort and money looking for causes that might be in our body chemistry. Seems to me we're saying that God makes mistakes simply to ignore the fact that our sinful nature can lead to some pretty bizarre thinking.
Actually I CAN speak to this issue becaue I have my own chemical imbalance issues. I know that my temper is bad, not because of my choices, but because there are real chemical imbalances in my brain that make me prone to anger, depression, panic attacks and other problems.
Choices are always a part of life but it's about more than just THINKING something. I've gone out of my way to educate myself on this issue so I know what I'm talking about. You're dismissal of an entire group of people that you have no knowledge of is telling in that you can't even be bothered to at least concede that genetics and biology do play a part in transsexualism.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 1:08:58 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1273
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
You're dismissal of an entire group of people that you have no knowledge of is telling in that you can't even be bothered to at least concede that genetics and biology do play a part in transsexualism.
You say I have no knowledge. You don't know me. You are casting the same judgment you accuse me of casting. If you have read any of the homosexuality or sexual issue threads, you would know that I have extensive experience in working with paraphilias. Academics and scientists like to study and analyze things and find an assortment of causes for why people behave as they do. IN their research, they ignore the moral compass of thier research subjects and zero in on the genes that might cause someone to do what they do.
quote:
Actually I CAN speak to this issue becaue I have my own chemical imbalance issues.
And this makes you an expert?
quote:
I know that my temper is bad, not because of my choices, but because there are real chemical imbalances in my brain that make me prone to anger, depression, panic attacks and other problems.
I figured this is a good place to add this because after my last comment you are likely feeling a bit angry. Yet, as you read further, you have to choose how you will respond. You are controlling the chemicals that you say have control of you.
I'm not saying that our brains can't or don't have chemical imbalances. After years of working in the field, I am well aware they do and that medications can sometimes help. BUt, when we give such credence to these imbalances that we feel we are not responsible for our own behavior, then we are at the mercy of our emotions. It's kind of like the old Flip Wilson saying, "The devil made me do it." We have control over our thought lives. We can surrender our thoughts to Christ, or to the latest theory on causation.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 1:20:49 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 757
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
You're dismissal of an entire group of people that you have no knowledge of is telling in that you can't even be bothered to at least concede that genetics and biology do play a part in transsexualism.
You say I have no knowledge. You don't know me. You are casting the same judgment you accuse me of casting. If you have read any of the homosexuality or sexual issue threads, you would know that I have extensive experience in working with paraphilias. Academics and scientists like to study and analyze things and find an assortment of causes for why people behave as they do. IN their research, they ignore the moral compass of thier research subjects and zero in on the genes that might cause someone to do what they do.
quote:
Actually I CAN speak to this issue becaue I have my own chemical imbalance issues.
And this makes you an expert?
quote:
I know that my temper is bad, not because of my choices, but because there are real chemical imbalances in my brain that make me prone to anger, depression, panic attacks and other problems.
I figured this is a good place to add this because after my last comment you are likely feeling a bit angry. Yet, as you read further, you have to choose how you will respond. You are controlling the chemicals that you say have control of you.
I'm not saying that our brains can't or don't have chemical imbalances. After years of working in the field, I am well aware they do and that medications can sometimes help. BUt, when we give such credence to these imbalances that we feel we are not responsible for our own behavior, then we are at the mercy of our emotions. It's kind of like the old Flip Wilson saying, "The devil made me do it." We have control over our thought lives. We can surrender our thoughts to Christ, or to the latest theory on causation.
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 1:32:47 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1273
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
Are you saying that God made a mistake on a person who feels they should be a different gender? And, that we imperfect humans can correct the mistakes of a perfect God through surgical procedure? You're entitled to an opinion, but what supports your opinion?
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 10:56:47 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 757
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
Are you saying that God made a mistake on a person who feels they should be a different gender? And, that we imperfect humans can correct the mistakes of a perfect God through surgical procedure? You're entitled to an opinion, but what supports your opinion?
Kindly don't make the accusation that I said God was imperfect. The natural world, and by extension, biology isn't perfect and hasn't been since the fall of man.
Transsexuals have a different brain chemistry then most people. Hormonal imbalances, and other biological factors combine to give them the gender idenitity of the opposite sex. The overwhelming majority know from a young age that something's wrong and they aren't the gender that their minds tell them they are. There's a level of confusion that most people will never understand because it's not how their own minds function.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 12:36:56 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2393
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
Are you saying that God made a mistake on a person who feels they should be a different gender? And, that we imperfect humans can correct the mistakes of a perfect God through surgical procedure? You're entitled to an opinion, but what supports your opinion?
The world is messed up. I mean, there are babies born without brains, without various body parts, with stuff outside that should be inside, stillborn and a myriad of other things....is THAT God making a "mistake"? It's not God's fault the world is the way it is.
If someone is biologically geared to a be a female, but they are a male outwardly, that's not God's mistake. That's something that just happens-- just like all these other things just happen without explanation.
I'm not saying that anecephaly and trans. are the same; it's just an illustration.
Sometimes I think if Christians try to figure out things instead of throwing "it's a sin" around 100% of the time, some of these biologically-based things could be given the attention they need to be given by us (Christians). I think the secular world, compared with us, already does this. I doubt someone who has a biological problem in this situation wants to have it blamed on sin when they can probably benefit from someone actually trying to help out whatever issue is going on with the body. We don't want to do that... we just want to tell people how sinful it is.  I personally think it's tragic, esp. for that person who's being condemned for something they can't control.
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 3/19/2008 12:46:56 PM >
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 1:15:18 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Schala
I have a friend who is a chimera, raised as male, but with XY/XX chromosomes, both ovaries and testes (2 of each). Which sex are they? Will someone answer this PLEASE!!!???
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 2:19:14 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1273
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
Are you saying that God made a mistake on a person who feels they should be a different gender? And, that we imperfect humans can correct the mistakes of a perfect God through surgical procedure? You're entitled to an opinion, but what supports your opinion?
Kindly don't make the accusation that I said God was imperfect. The natural world, and by extension, biology isn't perfect and hasn't been since the fall of man.
Transsexuals have a different brain chemistry then most people. Hormonal imbalances, and other biological factors combine to give them the gender idenitity of the opposite sex. The overwhelming majority know from a young age that something's wrong and they aren't the gender that their minds tell them they are. There's a level of confusion that most people will never understand because it's not how their own minds function.
I'll ask you again, what is the source on which you base your opinion? You state that transexualism is not a sin as though you are stating a fact. You then go on to say that we can correct this anomaly through corrective surgery. You conclude your statement by saying this is just your opinion communicating that you are not 100% certain. In essence, you seem to be basing your opinion on emotional reasoning.
quote:
There's a level of confusion that most people will never understand because it's not how their own minds function.
So, does the surgical procedure cure the confusion? Seems that we treat the symptoms, not the disease. All of our minds function differently. It seems that with our constant quest for knowledge and the announcement of possible causes for behavioral abnormalities, all we do is add to the confusion.
quote:
Solo,
Sometimes I think if Christians try to figure out things instead of throwing "it's a sin" around 100% of the time, some of these biologically-based things could be given the attention they need to be given by us (Christians). I think the secular world, compared with us, already does this. I doubt someone who has a biological problem in this situation wants to have it blamed on sin when they can probably benefit from someone actually trying to help out whatever issue is going on with the body. We don't want to do that... we just want to tell people how sinful it is. I personally think it's tragic, esp. for that person who's being condemned for something they can't control.
I understand what you are saying. I think that sometimes Christians can be very closed minded, especially with things they don't understand. Not just Christians, most humans tend to close their minds when they come across something hard to wrap their minds around. I am not denying that biolgical factors exist when it comes to behavioral issues. My concern about the constant focus on the bilogy/physiology of issues regarding behavior is that the spiritual gets ignored or dismissed. As I told you in the homosexuality thread, we have control over our thought lives. Ultimately, we have to surrender our thoughts to something. Do we surrender them to Christ? Or, do we surrender them to human reasoning?
I also wanted to add that a couple of comments have been made indicating that I may be condemning people for their problems. Not the case. It's not my job to condemn. My job is to love others. Love does not mean that I stand by and allow others to continue in their destructive ways. Love means that I care enough to ask questions and challenge thoughts, attitudes, values and beliefs so as to help people know and grow in Christ.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 2:46:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2393
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Schala
I have a friend who is a chimera, raised as male, but with XY/XX chromosomes, both ovaries and testes (2 of each). Which sex are they? Will someone answer this PLEASE!!!???
If he identifies or sees "himself" as more one way or the other, I think he can call himself that sex. I guess technically though, he can go either way... I'm just thinking he iddentifies with one way or the other more.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/19/2008 2:57:07 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 757
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
That may well be but transexualism isn't a sin. It's a corrective surgery and we shouldn't be condeming people for things like this. At least that's my opinion.
Are you saying that God made a mistake on a person who feels they should be a different gender? And, that we imperfect humans can correct the mistakes of a perfect God through surgical procedure? You're entitled to an opinion, but what supports your opinion?
Kindly don't make the accusation that I said God was imperfect. The natural world, and by extension, biology isn't perfect and hasn't been since the fall of man.
Transsexuals have a different brain chemistry then most people. Hormonal imbalances, and other biological factors combine to give them the gender idenitity of the opposite sex. The overwhelming majority know from a young age that something's wrong and they aren't the gender that their minds tell them they are. There's a level of confusion that most people will never understand because it's not how their own minds function.
I'll ask you again, what is the source on which you base your opinion? You state that transexualism is not a sin as though you are stating a fact. You then go on to say that we can correct this anomaly through corrective surgery. You conclude your statement by saying this is just your opinion communicating that you are not 100% certain. In essence, you seem to be basing your opinion on emotional reasoning.
quote:
There's a level of confusion that most people will never understand b | | | |
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