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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 7:10:31 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3541467/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3542216
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 8:03:33 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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jbow...
Regarding your comments in post #102, I know in a very intimate way what you are struggling with. Paul says to renew our minds with God's word and to be a holy, living sacrifice by submitting in faith to His word. Jesus said a righteous (our righteousness is Him and only Him) will fall seven times, but he will not stay down. When we consider the infinite holiness of God, and even while we were yet in sin, He died for us..... tears come to my eyes over the many times I've denied Him in word or deed or thought. Just to think that He would still bear our sins on the cross.... doesn't that make you want to obey Him all the more? Please read 1 John 1:5 - 2:3. Keep in mind that your faith itself is a gift from God. If you are born again, that was a supernatural act of God, because like Lazarus, we wer dead in sin. Keep the light of God's word shining in your mind and heart, confess your sins, and walk in the absense of secrecy and darkness. Here is a quote I like to keep in mind:
"As you grow in grace in the knowledge of Christ, as the word does its work, as the Spirit does its work, and your sanctification increases and you are being changed by the Spirit of God into the image of Christ as you gaze at His glory, you will have increasing victory and decreasing iniquity. You will be better. However, you will feel worse because part of being better is hating sin more." --John MacArthur
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 8:12:56 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I will have to listen to this Washer guy. I completely turned him off, until I found out he is Southern Baptist, but I am still not impressed.
Here is history: Preachers who rise in fame for their "straight forward" or dynamic messages almost invariably rise -- to fall. We eventually learn that the preacher's main message was actually about his own failures. Happens almost every time.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 8:58:11 PM
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StephK
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Give him a listen before tuning him out. http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/home
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The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 9:43:18 PM
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jbow
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We eventually learn that the preacher's main message was actually about his own failures.
You said a mouth full there... I find that to be true not only about preachers but pretty much about everyone. A thief will suspect everyone else of being a thief. An adulterer will suspect everyone else of adultery. However, I cannot say that Washer is anything other than sincere because I know of nothing wrong he has done. He preaches a strong message though, i'm not sure what to do with it. I guess if I were a strong Christian, satisfied with my walk I would enjoy it more but I am having some problems right now. I deleted the other post, (102), because it was born of confusion.
Jimmy Swaggart was an example of what you are saying... he preached against sexual immorality a lot while he was struggling with the sin. Let me say however, I think Swaggart is a man of God who got caught in sin and God corrected him, I am not pointing a finger at him, just saying he was an example of what you are talking about at that point in his life. It's human nature, we see our faults in others.
I just hate seeing how self-centered I really am, I disgust myself sometimes. I'm a grown man but sometimes I act like a spoiled little boy.
J
< Message edited by jbow -- 6/21/2008 1:59:31 AM >
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 9:55:36 PM
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jbow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
jbow...
Regarding your comments in post #102, I know in a very intimate way what you are struggling with. Paul says to renew our minds with God's word and to be a holy, living sacrifice by submitting in faith to His word. Jesus said a righteous (our righteousness is Him and only Him) will fall seven times, but he will not stay down. When we consider the infinite holiness of God, and even while we were yet in sin, He died for us..... tears come to my eyes over the many times I've denied Him in word or deed or thought. Just to think that He would still bear our sins on the cross.... doesn't that make you want to obey Him all the more? Please read 1 John 1:5 - 2:3. Keep in mind that your faith itself is a gift from God. If you are born again, that was a supernatural act of God, because like Lazarus, we wer dead in sin. Keep the light of God's word shining in your mind and heart, confess your sins, and walk in the absense of secrecy and darkness. Here is a quote I like to keep in mind:
"As you grow in grace in the knowledge of Christ, as the word does its work, as the Spirit does its work, and your sanctification increases and you are being changed by the Spirit of God into the image of Christ as you gaze at His glory, you will have increasing victory and decreasing iniquity. You will be better. However, you will feel worse because part of being better is hating sin more." --John MacArthur
Thank you for the support, for the words. I need to learn discipline, I need to pray more then maybe I would walk in the Spirit more.
Do you ever wonder how preachers seem to stay on top of things all the time? They always seem to be where they should be spiritually... I think if I were a pastor I would not last long. I'd probably fall into some sin on Saturday and just be a mess on Sunday, feeling like a hypocrite and all... maybe it's just me but I don't think so.
You know, years ago I was thinking about how God gave Jacob a new name, and Abram a new name, and Saul He named Paul... and I asked God to give me a new name and immediately the Spirit said to me, you are Mephibosheth. I knew the name but couldn't remember who he was so I had to look it up and He named me well, for Mephibosheth is who I truly am... I am lame in both legs and I eat at the Kings table every day. I have no strength in myself, I am totally dependent upon the mercy of my King. Yes, I know why we will cast our crowns at His feet... because, for me at least, receiving a crown of righteousness in His presence will be really awkward. I will be happy to cast it at His feet because righteousness belongs to Him... I am Mephibosheth.
Julien
< Message edited by jbow -- 6/21/2008 2:00:13 AM >
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2008 12:54:40 PM
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tsnody2001
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Julien, as Christians, we should not try to hide our sin. That is what 1 John 1 is all about. When we are born again, we do not magicly become sinless. Now when we start saying that we have no sin, then we've got problems. It's the dark secrecy that Satan uses to thrive in, and he uses it to make us feel ashamed and to manipulate us when we want to keep it secret. When we bring our sin to be exposed by the light of God's truth, there is a secret burden that is lifted, and there is relief in confessing our sins one to another.... I remember when I first learned what my name, Travis, means. It means that I am a toll-booth-collector type figure. The moment I learned that, I knew what God was calling me to do with my life. God has chosen me (by no means do I even feel worthy of such a calling) to help people recognize the fork in the road that we all come to, and to steer them toward the way, the truth and the life-- Jesus. The reason I bring this up, is because like most people who read the name-changing passages, I wondered what God would rename me. At the time I asked this I was in San Diego, CA with Campus Crusade for Christ, and I was spending the summer studying 1 and 2 Timothy. Timothy is Greek for "God's honor." I know ALL of Scripture is for ALL believers, but these two particular books spoke to me. I think that while God has already given me the name He wants me to have (Travis), he has given me a new heart and a new mind, not unlike that of Timothy. I'm sorry if I'm rambling, I just thought (even though it has nothing to do with Paul Washer) I'd give you some encouragement, because I too, for three or four years, have wandered from the faith and God's calling on my life. And just like Jonah, God is bringing me out of belly of the fish and placing me back in the path He carved out for me. God is reminding me who I am, and what my name is. God bless.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2008 3:34:52 PM
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deliveredarling
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I love Paul Washer. He is straight forward and to the point. He doesn't water things down and sees no reason to sugar coat anything. I like him because that is the way I learn best. My flesh will cave at the slightest instance of sugar coating. I have a magnificent way of justifying something in my head if offered a little lee way. Boldness and strength can break through my stubborn bullheadedness. Kind of like being swiped with a reality check. Feeling conviction from straight talk reminds me of how very far I have to go. It keeps me humble. Just when I feel like I'm doing well........I appreciate that I have to look at things. For me it is about growth rather than tolerating mediocrity. I settled for that and less the majority of my life. God gave me a second chance and I have no desire to settle for anything less than the best I can receive of Him.
JBow, maybe there are some similarities here. If so, let me encourage you to check the lens you are picturing this through and let Him shine through in your seeking! You are blessed, I have seen it in many of your posts. God will use what you are currently experiencing and pull you through!
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Luke 8:16
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2008 5:09:09 PM
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Stronger2day
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
For me it is about growth rather than tolerating mediocrity. I settled for that and less the majority of my life. God gave me a second chance and I have no desire to settle for anything less than the best I can receive of Him.
Amen!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2008 9:59:39 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Most of his messages freeze my computer. Totally. I have to shut it down and reboot.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/22/2008 5:38:13 PM
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J_Michael80
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I enjoy listening to all of Paul Washer's sermons on YouTube.com. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul Washer because he preaches the entire gospel, the man has no fear. Paul Washer is straight forward, uses common sense, and preaches the word of God.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 6/22/2008 6:42:24 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/22/2008 9:17:45 PM
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Eric B
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Just ran across this guy on one of the You Tube videos linked on another board. In one video, he said salvation was in "repenting, growing, continuing to repent", etc. That is straight up works salvation. Then I saw that another video had him being interviewed by Kirk Cameron on his Way of the Master. So I think "so he's associated with [I]them[/I]". I had liked Cameron and Comfort, except for that incredible gaffe they made regarding the banana being "made for the human hand" as proof of "design".
Doing more research on Washing, I find he's not only Calvinist, but also the so-called "Lordship Salvation" brand. So it seems they all fall into that camp!
I remember years ago, on the Word Network, early mornings, seeing this TV Bible study show "Word Pictures" (which includes series such as "A Workman Approved By God", produced by Mark Kielar of "Cross TV" ministries) which suggested most in churches today who believe they are saved aren't. (He also heavily emphasizes "works", even saying that people aren't saved "because they don't want to do the work". Is salvation of works, or is it not?) This was right after the Dave Hunt-James White battle, and one one show dedicated to that controversy, (but without mentioning the names) Kielar, after much beating around the bush with an apparent "neutral" perspective where you couldn't tell which side he was going to take; then indirectly favors Calvinism.
Shortly after, John MacArther has a similar show in the same slot. Not recognizing him by face, I wondered if it was connected with the other show, but it didnt seem to be. I had heard he was "Lordship".
So more recently, Cameron and Comfort have their series on evangelism there. It still seemed like this show was produced by the same people as the other two, but they otherwise did not seem related, and it seemed good. They were just teaching you to be more bold in witnessing, and to use the Law rather than a sinner's prayer. I had no idea they were all tangled up in this Lordship web. They all mask it so well. You can't tell what their real doctrinal agenda is. Then, it at some point eventually gets sprung on you.
For people to have to rely on such stealth tactics to put forth their doctrine; something is wrong. Just come out with your full beliefs!
So basically, with all the evengelism they preach; it is all just a script. They feign the language of temporal cause and effect by talking about how all these people are going to Hell because of bad preaching and evangelism tactics that give them a false conversion or assurance. But if we go and preach from the Law, then we will have genuine conversion. Yet in reality, everyone who is saved and lost is already preordained. Evangelism then is basically making the "sheep" aware of their calling, and for the reprobates, all that preachng of the Law and condemnation is basically imprecation, as Calvin even admitted.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/22/2008 9:26:31 PM
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HisFish
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quote:
Doing more research on Washing, I find he's not only Calvinist, but also the so-called "Lordship Salvation" brand. So it seems they all fall into that camp
Calvinist, thats a good thing my friend. Also, He does not teach salvation by works, but he rightly teaches works as a proof of it.
quote:
For people to have to rely on such stealth tactics to put forth their doctrine; something is wrong. Just come out with your full beliefs!
This one made me laugh, people like washer will never leave you guessing about where they come from. I was like you once, spent 20 years as a dispensationalist arminian. Like they say, that dog just dont hunt.
< Message edited by HisFish -- 6/22/2008 9:41:56 PM >
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/22/2008 10:05:35 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you for bringing up YouTube! I could try listening there, and it may not freeze my computer. Any suggestion as to which title to watch?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/22/2008 10:25:07 PM
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lw9
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Hi again, Covaan_Meshuga!! 
I think this is a great place to start. I love that he doesn't beat around the bush and just lays the truth out so boldly. I hope you can view it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8
< Message edited by lw9 -- 6/22/2008 10:31:34 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 2:14:47 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, HisFish and Lw9! The one you mentioned, Lw9 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8, the one to young people -- is the first one I saw.
Personally, if he is for real (and he is convincing), I think he said a whole lot on there that should have been said in the churches a long time ago.
I watched a few other snippets of him on YouTube, too -- for example, the comparisons of his message with that of Joel Olsteen (sp?).
Also watched this clip, which is neither of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAgLVFx_yh8. What people will fall for, in the name of religion, is really scary to me.
Writing of Olsteen, on a humorous note, I also saw http://search.live.com/video/results.aspx?q=youtube+%22Joel+Osteen%22+whitener&docid=2120597897915&FORM=TVVR#docid=2120597897915.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 7:09:42 AM
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Eric B
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Calvinist, thats a good thing my friend. Also, He does not teach salvation by works, but he rightly teaches works as a proof of it.
What I meant to add yesterday was that from their preaching, salvation is by works, and it is God who grants the "ability" to do the works. That's how they get around it being "man's actions" as they criticize in Arminians. Just credit God for the ability. Yet in real life practice, if you do the work (repentance and "growing" and continuing), then God responds by receiving you into Heaven.
On one of those videos, he sounded just like Catholics and Church of Christ people I used to debate with. The only difference is claiming God enables you, rather than free will choice. quote:
quote:
For people to have to rely on such stealth tactics to put forth their doctrine; something is wrong. Just come out with your full beliefs!
This one made me laugh, people like washer will never leave you guessing about where they come from. I was like you once, spent 20 years as a dispensationalist arminian. Like they say, that dog just dont hunt.
Well, I was talking about that whole string of ministries in general, (in retrospect) but I did watch several Washer videos (including one called "Beloved Calvinists and Arminians" making it look like he was neutral in that issue) and he did not clearly promote Calvinism. I guess the clue for Lordship was putting down the sinner's prayer and other evangelistic techniques, and saying a person had to already hate sin when approached with the Gospel. But that's what I mean; it's very indirect. I had to look him up on Wikipedia to get a clear picture of his Calvinistic background.
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/23/2008 6:16:21 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 9:32:27 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Hi - I dont perceive paul washer to be like that. I have listened to him now for about a month and I just dont get that from him. lets pray for him NOT to fall,, not looking for him to fall just because some others couldn't make it.
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I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 9:38:37 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Eric - let me kindly try to sort this out for you. You are stating things that I have heard peopel say when they dont quite understand the message.
paul Washer - and I - and many christians - believe that Christianity and being born again is according to Ephesians 2:8-9 "for by grace are ye saved thru faith". We are not saved by works.
however, too many people nowadays claim that they said a "prayer" and they think thats all, now they have escaped hell, and all they have is kinda like a "fire insurance" and they think thats all there is to being a Christian. But it is just the beginning.
As we grow and mature and become more like Christ, we will naturally produce good works, fruit of the spirit, etc. This is the message of people like Paul Washer.
the "lordship" doctrine, which I've been hearing, I think - (correct me if Im wrong),, but is this where people beleive in making jesus not just savior, but also Lord. if so, that is totally biblical... as we dont just make jesus our personal santa claus, but he is Lord of our heart, life, soul, etc. he is our Lord and Savior, Master, etc. We are his property, as "we were bought with a price" "ye are not your own". That is what I think "lordship" means. that's not calvinistic - thats just being totally surrendered to the Lord.
if you have not surrendered yourself to wholly serving the Lord, then you are serving the world.
I hope I have been able to clear up some things for you.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 7:03:08 PM
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Eric B
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Eric - let me kindly try to sort this out for you. You are stating things that I have heard peopel say when they dont quite understand the message.
paul Washer - and I - and many christians - believe that Christianity and being born again is according to Ephesians 2:8-9 "for by grace are ye saved thru faith". We are not saved by works.
however, too many people nowadays claim that they said a "prayer" and they think thats all, now they have escaped hell, and all they have is kinda like a "fire insurance" and they think thats all there is to being a Christian. But it is just the beginning.
As we grow and mature and become more like Christ, we will naturally produce good works, fruit of the spirit, etc. This is the message of people like Paul Washer. But nobody out there teaches not to grow and produce good works. Just because we see some people not producing enough works and then appealing to a prayer does not give us the license to try to "up the ante" and make it harder to be saved. Where do we even get off deciding that these other Christians are not producing enough fruits, or their their faith is too "easy"? That is the spirit of legalism, and such people do not grasp their own sin, even if they have improved their behavior after conversion or are not [visibly] committing the same sins they may see another Christian engaged in.
Salvation is not "trying harder", and it's amazing to have to preach this to Calvinists! They accuse Arminians of being "closet Catholics", but again, what these guys are teaching is exactly the same as what Catholics teach about "works" and a "process" of salvation.
And it doesn't really produce genuine revival. It scares people for awhile (and then many Calvinists will say that if you're only believing to escape Hell, then you're still going there!   ) only to have them rebel in frustration generations later after they can no longer take all the fear.
Everybody throws around that term "fire insurance", but isn't that really all we can have? If not; then you're really saying we can do something to help save ourselves from the fire! And that's still basically "fire insurance", only now you've upped the premium, (and claimed that God gave you the money for it).
quote:
the "lordship" doctrine, which I've been hearing, I think - (correct me if Im wrong),, but is this where people beleive in making jesus not just savior, but also Lord. if so, that is totally biblical... as we dont just make jesus our personal santa claus, but he is Lord of our heart, life, soul, etc. he is our Lord and Savior, Master, etc. We are his property, as "we were bought with a price" "ye are not your own". That is what I think "lordship" means. that's not calvinistic - thats just being totally surrendered to the Lord. NO! That's exactly what I thought it meant as well. But in practice, what it refers to is the claim that a person has to be producing the fruit before the evangelistic approach, and afterwards, satisfy some nondescript demand of "growth" in order to be considered "saved". It's basically the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration before conversion, taken to another level. Basically, Christ is already their "Lord" when given the Gospel, and they will already be producing some fruits of it, such as "hating their sin". Hence, no "sinner's prayer", or "asking them if they want to be saved".
That's a bad name for the teaching, since it does seem to simply refer to the acceptance of Christ as Lord. Here, I found a critic of him: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/paul_washer.htm (ridiculous KJVO fundie; can't even discuss the issue without mentioning "rock & roll drums" in the background of one of the videos). It looks like he is denying the need of making Jesus lord, repentance, and holy living. He really isn't, but the issue is "requiring the FRUIT of repentance as part of saving grace" and "that a person is not saved who doesn't have a drastic turnabout in their lifestyle". I also like how he says "Salvation is receiving; NOT giving!"
< Message edited by Eric B -- 6/23/2008 7:12:12 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2008 7:40:44 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
But nobody out there teaches not to grow and produce good works. Just because we see some people not producing enough works and then appealing to a prayer does not give us the license to try to "up the ante" and make it harder to be saved.
But, Eric, they do. There are those who actually teach that once one has said the "sinner's prayer," they are automatically saved, and they are signed, sealed, and delivered for heaven, no matter what they do in life. This is actually a fairly common teaching!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
Where do we even get off deciding that these other Christians are not producing enough fruits, or their their faith is too "easy"? That is the spirit of legalism, and such people do not grasp their own sin, even if they have improved their behavior after conversion or are not [visibly] committing the same sins they may see another Christian engaged in.
Well, that may be your idea regarding people's response to the teaching above, but the Bible is clear that if we are truly saved, we will produce fruit. I have an apple tree. Right now, it is just jammed with apples -- apples that are too close together to allow apple-growth. These apples are about 1/2" in diameter, and there are literally hundreds of them on that tree. The apples may be useless right now, but they are still fruit. We all know that some people's fruit-of-salvation they produce are very small, but if they truly are believers, they will produce anyway. But there truly are those who have said that little prayer, and because they were taught wrong, there is no fruit other than rotten fruit.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
Salvation is not "trying harder", and it's amazing to have to preach this to Calvinists!
I am sorry, but while I have not heard everything Washer has preached, I did not hear him say this. What I heard him call for was taking G-d serious and producing fruit.
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
...Everybody throws around that term "fire insurance", but isn't that really all we can have? If not; then you're really saying we can do something to help save ourselves from the fire! And that's still basically "fire insurance", only now you've upped the premium, (and claimed that God gave you the money for it).
No! We do NOT have a fire insurance salvation! That was never offered! We were offered the love of G-d. We were offered the Kingdom of G-d. We were offered the healing stripes on His back. He offered us eternity with Him, which happens to exclude an eternity with satan.
ANYONE who turns to G-d for a fire-insurance salvation gets less than they are bargaining for. If they stay with it, they will learn that salvation is not about fire insurance pretty quickly, if they are taught and/or learn.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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