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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 4:53:29 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
This thinking, in my mind, is the problem.
Salvation is not the goal, neither is discipleship.
The goal is knowing, enjoying and thus glorifiying God forever. When this is understood all else falls into place. Do you have scripture to back this up?
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Phi 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Col 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
These verses all speak to us being made into the image of HIM. It sure sounds like the goal to me.
I love the verses you quoted. This is getting close to the goal, but there is one that is more supreme and is God's ultimate goal in all things - that he would be known, praised and rejoiced in.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18 NASB95)
Why did Christ die for sins once for all? "So that He might bring us to God."
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:5-6 NASB95)
Why did He predestined us? For the "praise of the glory of His grace."
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:12 NASB95)
What is the end (or purpose)? ". . . to the praise of His glory."
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 NASB95)
Why did God make us alive together in Christ? "So that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 3:8-10 NASB95)
Why did Paul preach the unfathomable riches of Christ? "So that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made know through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 NASB95)
All things are from Him, are through Him and reflect back to Him - all for His glory forever.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 8:11:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus told those who believed in Him to count the cost before becoming a disciple. What does that mean to you.
Jesus was speaking to the masses in Luke 14:25-35.
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, (Luke 14:25 NASB95)
To say that all these who were a part of the "large crowds" were believers is merely presumption. Many physically went along with the Lord Jesus, but not all believed upon Him.
I don't disagree here. I've not presumed anything either. So, what's the point?
Jesus told unbelievers to count the cost.
OK, now I follow. How do you know He wasn't speaking to those who DID believe in the crowd? How can you be sure that none in that crowd believed in Him? Any support?
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 11:52:51 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 315
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
OK, now I follow. How do you know He wasn't speaking to those who DID believe in the crowd? How can you be sure that none in that crowd believed in Him? Any support?
Hope you don't mind if I jump in here Free.
I would like to understand your position on santification better Free.
What do you mean our discipleship takes human effort?
While I agree with you that we must keep justification and sanctification seperate and not get the cart before the horse, they are both accomplished by the same means. By grace through faith.
(Galatians 3:3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Counting the cost.
(Luke 14:26) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
We all agree that Jesus isn't telling us to hate our relatives but that He is to be first. So really what we are giving up is idolotry or sin.
A life apart from Christ is a worthless life anyway and Jesus has promised that he that loses his life for His sake shall actually save it.
So what is it actually costing us?
We are commanded to pluck out eyes and cut off feet. These are things that can only be done by grace. It may seem like a great cost to lose an eye or foot but Jesus said that they are eyes and feet that offend.
I am not saying this to offend you Free or get an angry response. I just want to understand your view of sanctification better.
Christ has pruned things from my tree that I thought would cost me alot but I come to realize that it was a dead branch that was hindering me to begin with. It wound up not being any cost at all.
(Philippians 2:12) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 5:23:02 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus told those who believed in Him to count the cost before becoming a disciple. What does that mean to you.
Jesus was speaking to the masses in Luke 14:25-35.
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, (Luke 14:25 NASB95)
To say that all these who were a part of the "large crowds" were believers is merely presumption. Many physically went along with the Lord Jesus, but not all believed upon Him.
I don't disagree here. I've not presumed anything either. So, what's the point?
Jesus told unbelievers to count the cost.
OK, now I follow. How do you know He wasn't speaking to those who DID believe in the crowd? How can you be sure that none in that crowd believed in Him? Any support?
It would be presumption to think the Lord Jesus was only speaking to believers in the crowd; there is no support for that.
Generally speaking Luke makes it known who the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to. For example, compare Luke 14:25
"Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them"
with Luke 16:1
"Now He was also saying to the disciples"
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 8:46:55 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5015
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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I feel the definitive passage whether Christ is one's Lord or not is;
(Luke 6:46) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
Without obedience to the Word, one does not know Christ; ergo that one is not saved.
Christ also spoke to this in:
(Matthew 7:20) 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
So it would seem to this ole man that those who practice sin, cannot call Christ Lord, and never could factually call Him Lord, because they never knew Him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 9:20:49 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
So it would seem to this ole man that those who practice sin, cannot call Christ Lord, and never could factually call Him Lord, because they never knew Him.
Well said RC.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 4:44:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
OK, now I follow. How do you know He wasn't speaking to those who DID believe in the crowd? How can you be sure that none in that crowd believed in Him? Any support?
Hope you don't mind if I jump in here Free.
I would like to understand your position on santification better Free.
What do you mean our discipleship takes human effort?
While I agree with you that we must keep justification and sanctification seperate and not get the cart before the horse, they are both accomplished by the same means. By grace through faith.
We have no part in our justification. That is accomplished solely by God. Our holiness on earth (sanctification in time) is dependent upon our willingness to be filled by the Holy Spirit and our obedience to our Lord's commands.
Just as being a committed disciple in the culture of the 1st century Israel required extreme sacrifice, the same is true of believers today. How many of us really and honestly and consistently have followed the 3 commands of Christ for discipleship: deny ourselves (in the fullest of meaning), taken up our cross daily, and followed Him?
quote:
(Galatians 3:3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
As I understand the context, the Galatians had returned to ritual sacrifice, per the Judiazers who followed Paul and tried to corrupt his message of grace.
quote:
Counting the cost.
(Luke 14:26) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
OK, all who have followed this command raise your right hand. (I thought so)
quote:
(Luke 14:27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
How many of us have literally laid down our lives in the name of Christ?
quote:
(Luke 14:28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
We all agree that Jesus isn't telling us to hate our relatives but that He is to be first. So really what we are giving up is idolotry or sin.
I don't disagree, but the bottom line is still extreme sacrifice in the name of Christ. Consider believers in some of the 3rd world countries, where they are daily persecuted for the Name of Jesus. That is what Jesus was warning His disciples about. Believers in this country have no idea of the daily sacrifices believers in other countries experience. We may, though, and probably sooner than later.
quote:
A life apart from Christ is a worthless life anyway and Jesus has promised that he that loses his life for His sake shall actually save it.
So what is it actually costing us?
We are commanded to pluck out eyes and cut off feet. These are things that can only be done by grace. It may seem like a great cost to lose an eye or foot but Jesus said that they are eyes and feet that offend.
Hopefully no one thinks that this is to be taken literally. However, the point remains that "counting the cost" includes extreme sacrifice.
quote:
I am not saying this to offend you Free or get an angry response. I just want to understand your view of sanctification better.
I'm neither angry nor have I taken any offense. I think you've posed good questions, to which I've made a few comments. I trust my comments aren't offensive to you either.
quote:
Christ has pruned things from my tree that I thought would cost me alot but I come to realize that it was a dead branch that was hindering me to begin with. It wound up not being any cost at all.
But it's clearly more than that. Things always look better once we "get there" than when we're going through it. It's the going through that we need to be aware of.
quote:
(Philippians 2:12) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I understand this to refer to our personal sanctification, not our salvation as in gaining eternal life.
quote:
(Philippians 2:13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Amen.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 5:00:36 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus told those who believed in Him to count the cost before becoming a disciple. What does that mean to you.
Jesus was speaking to the masses in Luke 14:25-35.
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, (Luke 14:25 NASB95)
To say that all these who were a part of the "large crowds" were believers is merely presumption. Many physically went along with the Lord Jesus, but not all believed upon Him.
I don't disagree here. I've not presumed anything either. So, what's the point?
Jesus told unbelievers to count the cost.
OK, now I follow. How do you know He wasn't speaking to those who DID believe in the crowd? How can you be sure that none in that crowd believed in Him? Any support?
It would be presumption to think the Lord Jesus was only speaking to believers in the crowd; there is no support for that.
I disagree. We actually have just such an example in John 8, where Jesus was speaking to a crows of Jewish unbelievers in the temple. During His teaching, "many came to believe in Him", per John 8:30. Now, note the beginning of v.31, "Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him..." In the middle of His speaking to this large crowd of unbelievers, some came to faith in Him, and He directly addresses them in v.31 and 32. The beginning of v.33 "reverts" back to the unbelieving crowd with the phrase "they answered Him". By starting at the beginning of the narrative, we see these phrases: v.12 Jesus spoke to them, v.14 said to them, v.19 they were saying, v.21 He said to them, v.23 He was aying to them, v.25 they were saying to Him, v.27 they did not realize. Then, in v.33 we see they answered Him. Until v.30, all fo the "they's" and "them's" referred to the crowd of unbelievers. In v.31 and 32, Jesus is clearly speaking to the Jews who had come to believe in Him. In v.33, the unbelieving Jews respond what Jesus said to the believing Jews in v.31-32.
So there is support that Jesus could have been speaking to believers in that crowd in Luke 14. In fact, there is no reason from the text to think that any in that crowd were unbelievers. There is no support for that at all.
quote:
Generally speaking Luke makes it known who the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to. For example, compare Luke 14:25
"Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them"
with Luke 16:1
"Now He was also saying to the disciples"
OK, generally speaking. That doesn't cover every single time.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 5:08:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I feel the definitive passage whether Christ is one's Lord or not is;
(Luke 6:46) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
Without obedience to the Word, one does not know Christ; ergo that one is not saved.
No, that one is ignorant, as Paul didn't want his audience to be, per Rom 11:25, 1 Cor 10:1, 12:1, 2 Cor 1:8 and 1 Thess 4:13. Paul was writing to believers, who are saved, and he didn't want them to be ignorant.
quote:
Christ also spoke to this in:
(Matthew 7:20) 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
But v.20 is in the context which begins with v.15, and the subject is false teachers.
quote:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
What were these people "counting on" or "trusting in" to get into the kingdom of God? Their works. There is no mention of faith, because there wasn't any. They had only works, which is what they were trusting in to save them.
quote:
So it would seem to this ole man that those who practice sin, cannot call Christ Lord, and never could factually call Him Lord, because they never knew Him.
Peter commanded his audience in 1 Pet 3:15 to sanctify Christ as Lord. that wasn't an evangelical appeal. It was directed to believers. Whenever believers sin, they have failed to sanctify Christ as Lord.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 5:44:03 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5015
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
We have no part in our justification. That is accomplished solely by God. Our holiness on earth (sanctification in time) is dependent upon our willingness to be filled by the Holy Spirit and our obedience to our Lord's commands.
We have to make the free will decision to use our God given faith and recieve the Grace God provides for us.
God does not cram justification down our throats. We have to believe.
To say we have no part is just silly. If that were true then all men would be saved (since God would that all be saved), and that is just not the case.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 7:29:22 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
quote:
It would be presumption to think the Lord Jesus was only speaking to believers in the crowd; there is no support for that.
I disagree. We actually have just such an example in John 8
Based upon your interpretation of John 8 you presume that the Lord Jesus was speaking to believers in Luke 22? Like I said - presumption.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/17/2008 7:56:58 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
We have no part in our justification. That is accomplished solely by God. Our holiness on earth (sanctification in time) is dependent upon our willingness to be filled by the Holy Spirit and our obedience to our Lord's commands.
We have to make the free will decision to use our God given faith and recieve the Grace God provides for us.
I agree that our faith is from free will.
quote:
God does not cram justification down our throats. We have to believe.
Again, I agree.
quote:
To say we have no part is just silly.
I think you misunderstand. We do not participate in our salvation. Our eteral life comes from God. He gives it to us. We do not contribute to our salvation.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/19/2008 6:41:35 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3826
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Our eteral life comes from God. He gives it to us. We do not contribute to our salvation. Comes from God? A free gift from HIM? Absolutely.
While we cannot contribute in the sense of adding to the Atonement, we can contribute by deciding to participate and embrace the process of sanctification, making Christ experientally Lord in our lives.
We have been saved.
We are being saved.
We will yet be saved.
All are true right now.
_____________________________
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/19/2008 1:45:09 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Our eteral life comes from God. He gives it to us. We do not contribute to our salvation. Comes from God? A free gift from HIM? Absolutely.
While we cannot contribute in the sense of adding to the Atonement, we can contribute by deciding to participate and embrace the process of sanctification, making Christ experientally Lord in our lives.
We have been saved.
Saved from the penalty of sin.
quote:
We are being saved.
Saved from the power of sin.
quote:
We will yet be saved.
Saved from the presence of sin.
quote:
All are true right now.
Amen.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/19/2008 2:33:19 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Our eteral life comes from God. He gives it to us. We do not contribute to our salvation. Comes from God? A free gift from HIM? Absolutely.
While we cannot contribute in the sense of adding to the Atonement, we can contribute by deciding to participate and embrace the process of sanctification, making Christ experientally Lord in our lives.
We have been saved.
Saved from the penalty of sin.
Saved from the wrath of God.
quote:
quote:
We are being saved.
Saved from the power of sin.
Enabled to love God and others.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. (1 John 5:3-4 ESV)
His commandments (in the context of this passage) are that we love God and love others.
quote:
quote:
We will yet be saved.
Saved from the presence of sin.
He who has this hope purifies himself now. Praise God!
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1Jn 3:3 ESV)
quote:
quote:
All are true right now.
Amen.
And Amen. Couldn't agree with you guys more.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/19/2008 7:03:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6686
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Our eteral life comes from God. He gives it to us. We do not contribute to our salvation. Comes from God? A free gift from HIM? Absolutely.
While we cannot contribute in the sense of adding to the Atonement, we can contribute by deciding to participate and embrace the process of sanctification, making Christ experientally Lord in our lives.
We have been saved.
Saved from the penalty of sin.
Saved from the wrath of God.
Which is the penalty of sin. 
quote:
quote:
quote:
We are being saved.
Saved from the power of sin.
Enabled to love God and others.
By the power of the Holy Spirit when we're filled and not grieving or quenching Him.
quote:
quote:
quote:
We will yet be saved.
Saved from the presence of sin.
He who has this hope purifies himself now. Praise God!
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1Jn 3:3 ESV)
quote:
quote:
All are true right now.
Amen.
And Amen. Couldn't agree with you guys more.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/20/2008 9:13:46 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1901
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
SH to Odeliya: i remember you giving excerpts from MacArthur, but I would be interested in the book title and page numbers so I can read the excerpts in context. I am very interested to do so because after reading The Gospel According to Jesus and Hard to Believe over a year ago I do not remember MacArthur's position being that only mature Christians that produce fruit are saved.
One sergeant i knew had this philosophy" if you procrastinate long enough the problem will take care of itself" that i thought it only works in the military but evidently in civil word as well. I didn’t do it in time and FG looks like already posted pages and quotes..
I would add one maybe only… quote:
John McArthur:Look at people who claim to be Christians, and see how deeply they worship the Lord. See how they sing the songs. Ask them what their prayer lives are like. How important is it for them to be in church on the Lord’s Day? Is Jesus Christ the love of their lives? Is it obvious? You can tell, if you look close enough. True believers show a deep humility, a sense of genuine respect for and awe of Jesus Christ. Are they marked by adoring wonder? p 169
1.Not every true believer is marked by humility. REAL humility is not even considered a virtue in modern western society and in Amer.church. Therefore it takes time to learn humility,it comes about by going thru adversity.Often people have no idea what christian humility even is !It doesn’t come easy. I don’t show it, still working on it. How many people that show really deep humility have you met, SH?...
2.how in the world does the way that people sing songs and attend church shows us if Jesus is the Lord of their life ?Pharisees and religionists usually put a much better façade when it comes to outward show of religiosity. "Adoring wonder"? Charismaniacs got everybody beat in this one.
To be honest and kind to Mc Arthur though, this is what I think:
What that fine fellow should've done - is chopped it in parts and instead of a book released it as a set of sermons – now that would have worked! It just doesn’t work as a deep theological book. Most of the quotes me and FreeGrace posted there are excellent as motivational slogans, but serve very poor as theological statements.
Commericals,advertisement punchlines, campaign slogans, sermons, military, sport reams or school mottos, and other inspirational stuff is by definition sort of exxagerative and vague. We cant try to dissect it and use it as a definite guide. "Come hungry- Leave Happy” by IHOP First of all, there is no religion of philosophy that ever defined "happiness" as “ "stuffing up you face with tons of carbs" But it works as a slogan!! nobody sues* IHOP if it failed to make us happy...
Even in the Bible some things were clearly motivational and we can' have a theology be built on that.Jesus said "who denies me in front of people......" taken literally it means Peter will never be in heaven.
This is what I see as Macarthur's error. If we should look at his book as a motivational sermon, then fine. If we try to see deep theology as of what salvation is in it – we run into serious problems with his view.
* yet. ;)
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/20/2008 9:18:23 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1901
Joined: 8/10/2005
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If he does I won't read any more of his books.
oh, dear by no means, that is not what i implied!!
Martin Luther and Aquinas were, as it can be easily proved from their writings,often acting as bloodthirsty, ill-mannered, occasionally hateful, strongly racist badboys that often let their dirty mouths run wild. I wouldnt stop reading their stuff because of that. There is enough good , pious, educational and inspiring value in their works to enjoy.
We all are people all can be wrong at times, or at least can be misunderstood, even at best intentions.I will never stop readin Mcarthur, he is very very good. But also a human …
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/20/2008 6:19:36 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Odeliya
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John McArthur:Look at people who claim to be Christians, and see how deeply they worship the Lord. See how they sing the songs. Ask them what their prayer lives are like. How important is it for them to be in church on the Lord’s Day? Is Jesus Christ the love of their lives? Is it obvious? You can tell, if you look close enough. True believers show a deep humility, a sense of genuine respect for and awe of Jesus Christ. Are they marked by adoring wonder? p 169
1.Not every true believer is marked by humility. REAL humility is not even considered a virtue in modern western society and in Amer.church. Therefore it takes time to learn humility,it comes about by going thru adversity.Often people have no idea what christian humility even is !It doesn’t come easy. I don’t show it, still working on it. How many people that show really deep humility have you met, SH?... He is speaking here of humility toward God not necessarily toward our fellowman. And if one is not humble toward God, he best be concerned about his salvation. MacArthur is exactly right here with all he's mentioned. If we find ourselves satisfied with doing the least toward God - what we think we can "get away" with - then we're simply playing the role of a believer.
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2.how in the world does the way that people sing songs and attend church shows us if Jesus is the Lord of their life ?Pharisees and religionists usually put a much better façade when it comes to outward show of religiosity. "Adoring wonder"? Charismaniacs got everybody beat in this one.
I'm not sure what he means by "how" people sing. Hopefully, it's not a reflection on how we "sound" :) But, our prayer life?...yes, that's an indication. Our sense of wonder and adoration concerning Christ...that He would sacrifice Himself for the likes of us?...yep...I think that would be another indication. To liken every outward manifestation to that of the Pharisees is to ignore what Scripture reveals is to be the life of a believer.
Paul and Silas sung songs to God late at night while in prison. What do we do when in the midst of some adversity? Do we sing and praise God for His blessings? The Apostles and disciples gathered together on the Lord's Day to worship God....are we to not follow their example? Have we "left" all to follow Christ? They did...are we to do less?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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