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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 11:48:43 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice
What? We submit to His authority at the moment of salvation, you know the whole broken and contrite spirit thing. It's not about works, it's about obedience. And we cannot have obedience, faith or repentance apart from His grace
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Lordship Salvation, however, can make a Calvinist behave much like an Arminian. Salvation becomes highly questionable, and assurance of salvation comes through the works of men rather than through the blood of Christ.
How can you prove your obedience? Through works. Do your works justify you? Of course you already know that your works do not justify you, because we are justified apart from works.
We are justified through the atoning work of the blood of Christ, alone. It is His righteousness which God sees when He examines us for salvation.
Yet, in Lordship Salvation theology, people are often asked to examine their works to see if they are saved, taking valuable verses out of context in order to make believers fear for their salvation. This is just what I have seen, anyway.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 2:07:30 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
What say you? Can you have salvation and not be "Lorded over" by Jesus Christ? Can you know the assurance of the forgiveness of sins and make the commandment to crucify the flesh optional?
It is amazing that Christians have to debate such fundamental truths. Paul said to the Philippian jailor "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts. 16:31).
Peter said to all the Jews hearing him on the Day of Pentecost "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
While the Son of God has been Lord from eternity, Jesus of Nazareth was declared to be Lord because He destroyed the power of sin, Hell, death, and Satan, through His crucifixion and resurrection. This is crucial for our salvation. That He therefore becomes our Lord, Master, and King is inescapable.
It is impossible to separate Lord from Christ since Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. Unless a sinner believes this with all his heart and repents, he cannot be saved.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 4:38:36 AM
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tony.nz
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This is an interesting discussion.... when I read what Gloryandgrace wrote about the "freegrace" POV. I was somewhat astounded. After reading Graeme's response though, I suspect however that that was perhaps a quote from a biased source.
My observations at this point.... I do not believe that there are two classes of believers, and I agree with Ezra that it is impossible to seperate "Lord" and "Christ". I have, however, never heard before that you should acknowledge yourself as a "disciple" in order to be saved. I would have just thought that everyone who is saved, is a disciple, since this means a person who is a committed follower and learner.
< Message edited by tony.nz -- 7/8/2007 4:41:45 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 6:31:53 AM
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tony.nz
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From what I have seen so far, the extremes of both positions look a bit scary...
Like politics. I have no problem with people who lean to the left, but I don't like communism. Similarly, people who lean to right wing views are OK, but I don't like fascists. I prefer a government of social responsibility (but encouraging independence from benefits) with economic freedoms (but with perhaps some interventions for the greater social good). A bit of salt with my pepper, thanks.
So, I will choose to identify myself with the moderates in both camps. We are saved by the free gift - the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and not by works lest any man boast..... however God forbid that we use the grace of God to justify continual unrepented sin, and become like the Nicolatians. Or believe that our faith is not demonstrated in works of obedience, since "faith without works is dead".
I do not believe it is easy for a believer to lose their salvation, requiring more than disappointment, disillusionment, depression, or despair over the habits of sinful flesh. It is possible however, else why would we be warned that there remains "no remaining sacrifice" for those who turn their back on the gospel, having once walked in truth? There are those who have made a clear and conscious decision to choose the pleasures of this world, rejecting Christ while in possession of the full knowledge of Truth.
Also (while I believe God may allow latitude for uneducated "newborns", or those possessing limited intellectual capacity), I believe that it is necessary to believe in the deity, humanity, virgin (sinless) birth, death on the cross, and resurrection of Christ. I struggle to understand freedom from sin, acknowledging the weakness of my own flesh, knowing that I could do better, while desiring to be (like Christ) free from it's awful grasp. I know I must confess that I am not without sin (it is truth).....yet I am commanded to sin not. I do not fully understand this.
So, I will stick to the gospel I understand, and for myself, avoid the labels.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 6:44:55 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2321
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quote:
I have, however, never heard before that you should acknowledge yourself as a "disciple" in order to be saved. I would have just thought that everyone who is saved, is a disciple, since this means a person who is a committed follower and learner.
Tony,
But this is exactly what John MacArthur says must happen.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 8:41:57 AM
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rodkewer
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works of the law = dead works
works of faith = works of God that he has preordained us to walk in
as sin is imputed in unbelief so is righteousness by faith
we are to fear God not man
unbelief displays sin - faith displays righteousness
Gal. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity , and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
2 Cor. 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 10:32:08 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4952
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
It is amazing that Christians have to debate such fundamental truths. Paul said to the Philippian jailor "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts. 16:31).
Peter said to all the Jews hearing him on the Day of Pentecost "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
While the Son of God has been Lord from eternity, Jesus of Nazareth was declared to be Lord because He destroyed the power of sin, Hell, death, and Satan, through His crucifixion and resurrection. This is crucial for our salvation. That He therefore becomes our Lord, Master, and King is inescapable.
It is impossible to separate Lord from Christ since Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. Unless a sinner believes this with all his heart and repents, he cannot be saved.
Absolutely I agree that Christ is Lord. That's what I said when I first heard of Lordship Salvation. It seemed they were stating the obvious.
But the more I read and experienced about Lordship Salvation, the more I saw that it can be taken too far to a level of making people prove their salvation and telling people to fear and question their salvation. So the proof of their salvation was no longer in the blood of Christ, but in their works.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 11:09:00 AM
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timf
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While those who advocate Lordship salvation may start with a genuine sincere desire to help people not misunderstand salvation (falsely think they are saved) what they call easy believism, they often progress to a state of establishing proofs of salvation. It is this convoluted system of proofs that become the millstone around the neck of Lordship salvation.
Lordship people generally reject any concept of carnal Christianity. They say it is just an excuse to indulge sin and demonstrates an unsaved condition. They often become particularly upset by any inference of what they consider a two tier level of Christianity. By the use of a conditional statement to believers, Jesus demonstrates just such a condition;
John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Lordship people seem to be bellicose with an intensity as if they were personally responsible for rescuing people from the fires of Hell. It is ironic that this fierceness and frustration are often associated with the carnality that they say does not exist in the life of a "true" Christian.
Another problem with the Lordship view is that it strangles discipleship. One does not have to grow to the full measure of Christ if one is already there. It is assumed that one must be there if one is a Christian.
I cannot assure anyone he is a Christian because of what he has said (easy believism) because I cannot see into the heart. I also cannot assure anyone he is a Christian because of what he has done (Lordship salvation) for the same reason. What I can do is point to the Bible and suggest a person examine himself and ask God for assurance.
Does a person love fellow believers? 1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Does a person love God's Word? 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Does a person love God or the world? John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 11:31:43 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4952
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Tim,
Excellent, insightful post.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 6:34:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2321
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Tim,
Excellent, insightful post.
Me three.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/8/2007 11:06:17 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
While those who advocate Lordship salvation may start with a genuine sincere desire to help people not misunderstand salvation (falsely think they are saved) what they call easy believism, they often progress to a state of establishing proofs of salvation. It is this convoluted system of proofs that become the millstone around the neck of Lordship salvation.
Lordship people generally reject any concept of carnal Christianity. They say it is just an excuse to indulge sin and demonstrates an unsaved condition. They often become particularly upset by any inference of what they consider a two tier level of Christianity. By the use of a conditional statement to believers, Jesus demonstrates just such a condition;
In the interests of fairness, please provide specific quotations from the writings or teachings of those whom you say are teaching false doctrine as described above. I have read some of MacArthur's teaching on this, and that is not what I found.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/9/2007 10:00:59 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
I have, however, never heard before that you should acknowledge yourself as a "disciple" in order to be saved. I would have just thought that everyone who is saved, is a disciple, since this means a person who is a committed follower and learner.
Tony,
But this is exactly what John MacArthur says must happen.
Graham:
John is a 5 pointer he is not arguing discipleship before conversion, he is arguing that a person needs a good groundwork of teaching on the scriptures to make a sound decision of faith, knowing and understanding the cost of discipleship and the surrender to Christ's Lordship.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/9/2007 11:22:41 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 14;25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The free grace P.O.V will have a difficult time using these verses in preaching the gospel. From their dislike to give the appearance of adding works to salvation, now it appears that self examination in terms of thinking about what it will cost them to follow Christ is out of the question.
This same kind of "cross carrying" warning to the unsaved is so that God will work in them a willingness to die to self. The Free Grace pov seems to feel that conversion is had by merely belief and holding ignorance in the cost of discipleship. They seem to feel it smacks of self-justification instead of true heart searching.
Again this is dealing with evangelism and methods of presenting the gospel, not vainly attempting to gain conversions with minimal gospel presentation. The Lordship salvation only surfaced in reaction to such poor and contemptable practices where solid biblical teaching was substituted with philosophies that were crossless and misrepresentations of Christ's salvation.
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 7/9/2007 11:48:29 AM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 12:41:14 PM
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rileykins
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The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life can't both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is a FALSE GOSPEL and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel. Galatians 1:8, 9
for by grace are ye saved through faith....not faith plus anything else, including first counting the cost, giving your life to God, being willing to forsake your sins, making a commitment to God to follow Him or to live for Him, surrending to His Lordship, and anything else that the unsaved are falsely told that they must do or be willing to do before God will give then eternal life.
rileykins
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 2:40:50 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life can't both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is a FALSE GOSPEL and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel. Galatians 1:8, 9
From what I've read so far from those who teach "Lordship salvation", you cannot divorce Jesus as Christ from Jesus as Lord. Therefore the message of "faith" is indeed the message that Jesus is both Lord and Christ and He must be received as such simultaneously, even as we forsake our sins and idols.
"Believe on LORD Jesus Christ" proclaims exactly that. The one who is Lord of lords and King of kings must become our personal Lord, Master, and King the moment He becomes our Savior and Redeemer. Which means that the moment a sinner repents and is converted he transfers the control of his life from Satan to Christ. It is really that simple. The word "Repent" includes "Make Jesus Christ your LORD". That's what Peter preached on that memorable Day of Pentecost. Study carefully the entire Gospel message in Acts 2.
Throughout the book of Acts we see that that repentance toward God and faith toward our LORD Jesus Christ followed immediately by baptism through immersion was the norm. This pure Gospel was muddied very quickly, with the false teaching of baptismal regeneration and other departures from the faith.
Today it is the separation of Christ as Savior from Christ as Lord that constitutes a false gospel, just as the separation of repentance from faith constitutes a false gospel. Furthermore, while the water of baptism does not save, separation of baptism from salvation also consititues a false gospel.
Being baptised as a believer is obedience to your Lord (not your pastor, church, or denomination), which leads to further obedience to your Lord in other matters. Obedience to your Lord is a consequence of salvation. That's what the "Lordship salvation" preachers are preaching.
Unfortunately there has been such a vast departure from the true Gospel, that people generally don't understand what the true Gospel really is. Thus the backlash against so-called "Lordship salvation".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 4:19:06 PM
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rileykins
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Hi Ezra
I think there is a big difference between believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and making Jesus Lord. In the first place we don't make Jesus Lord, He is Lord. And He's Lord whether we "make" Him Lord or not.
Repentance is about having a change of mind. For the unsaved that means they are to have a change of mind concering the Lord Christ Jesus, who He is and what He's done to provide forgiveness and deliverance from our sins. When we place faith in Jesus Christ the Lord as having taken our place personally on the cross and borne the penalty due our sins, then we're automatically repenting.
Lordship Salvation in my opinion puts the cart before the horse. It's asks of the unsaved what only a saved person can do. The answer to wordliness and carnality in the life of a believer is the cross. Not this false Lordship Salvation gospel that places a false assurance of salvation on our commitment and obedience to His Lordship. Such a "gospel" places faith in what we are doing instead of what the Lord has done. Telling the unsaved that the in order to be saved they must forsake their sins, make Jesus Lord and follow Him is not the gospel that saves.
What do you say to an unsaved person when he or she asks you "what must I do to be saved?
As for the rest of what you've said, sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
rileykins
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 6:47:03 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2321
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
The word "Repent" includes "Make Jesus Christ your LORD". That's what Peter preached on that memorable Day of Pentecost. Study carefully the entire Gospel message in Acts 2.
The entire message of Acts 2 encompasses more than just a salvation message. If you think it doesn't, I suppose you believe that in order to be saved you must not only repent, but you must also be baptized.
quote:
Throughout the book of Acts we see that that repentance toward God and faith toward our LORD Jesus Christ followed immediately by baptism through immersion was the norm. This pure Gospel was muddied very quickly, with the false teaching of baptismal regeneration and other departures from the faith.
Repentance toward God with regard to the Gentiles may refer to a change from polytheism to monotheism. But there is also a further step, faith in Jesus Christ. The same message would have been applicable to Indian Hindus, who would have had no problem "accepting Jesus" into their pantheon of gods.
quote:
Throughout the book of Acts we see that that repentance toward God and faith toward our LORD Jesus Christ followed immediately by baptism through immersion was the norm. This pure Gospel was muddied very quickly, with the false teaching of baptismal regeneration and other departures from the faith.
Out of 3 distinctly evangelistic books, repentance is mentioned only once between all three. John, Romans and Galatians. We are not opposed to repentance. But wrongly defined it makes an addition to the gospel.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 8:35:07 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Hi Ezra
I think there is a big difference between believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and making Jesus Lord.
To believe on "the Lord" Jesus Christ is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord from Heaven who died and rose again to destroy the power of sin, Hell, death, and Satan over all humanity.
Because He is Lord, He is sovereign over the enitre universe, and all power and authority belongs to Him. Therefore to believe on "the Lord " Jesus Christ is also to believe that the moment I receive Him, He has supreme authority over my life. Unless one has believed that, he has believed in "another" Jesus.
quote:
In the first place we don't make Jesus Lord, He is Lord. And He's Lord whether we "make" Him Lord or not.
That was never the issue. The issue is that for the bulk of the human race, Satan is lord over their lives, even though Jesus is Lord. Therefore the one who believes on Him personally makes Christ Lord of his life, and transfers lordship from Satan. That's what it means to make Him our Lord.
quote:
What do you say to an unsaved person when he or she asks you "what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So what does "Lord Jesus Christ" mean?
1. Jesus is both Lord and God -- therefore you submit to His absolute authority when you receive Him as BOTH Lord and Savior.
2. Jesus is "Jehovah your Salvation" -- therefore He Himself within you is your eternal life as well as your all-sufficiency.
3. Jesus is Christ -- He is both Messiah and Savior -- He died for your sins, and rose again for your justification. He is both your Substitute and your Redeemer.
This is what "Lord Jesus Christ" means.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 8:58:57 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
The entire message of Acts 2 encompasses more than just a salvation message. If you think it doesn't, I suppose you believe that in order to be saved you must not only repent, but you must also be baptized.
The point is, that in the Gospel message on the Day of Pentecost, Peter first proclaimed Jesus of Nazareth to be BOTH Lord Christ, and then he preached "Repent and baptized...". Therefore the true apostolic Gospel is that when we preach Jesus we preach Him as BOTH Lord and Christ simultaneously. There is no false dichotomy.
quote:
Repentance toward God with regard to the Gentiles may refer to a change from polytheism to monotheism.
First of all repentance applies to BOTH Jew and Gentile, and the first word preached by Christ to the Jews was "Repent!". Secondly, "repent" is far more than simply turning from false gods to the one true and living God. It is a total change of direction of one's life, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus, while turning to God and to Christ for redemption.
Thus Zacchaeus, who became rich through unlawful gain, gave away his wealth and restored to everyone in good measure what he had taken from them unlawfully. Repentance means the forsaking of all sins and idols and a wholehearted turning to God and His righteousness, and that encompasses the renouncing of the world, the flesh, and the devil.
quote:
Out of 3 distinctly evangelistic books, repentance is mentioned only once between all three. John, Romans and Galatians. We are not opposed to repentance. But wrongly defined it makes an addition to the gospel.
Other than the Gospel of John, we find the word repent in all the other Gospels. But does that mean that John does not teach the meaning and significance of repentance? Not at all. In any event, the fact that it was included in the Gospel message on the Day of Pentecost is more than enough. And it cannot be an "addition" to the Gospel, since Paul himself stated (Acts 20:20,21):
"And how I KEPT BACK NOTHING THAT WAS PROFITABLE UNTO YOU, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house. Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD, AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST".
Here Paul makes repentance and faith inseparable within the Gospel message. So should we.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 7/11/2007 9:06:02 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/11/2007 9:15:24 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2321
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
The point is, that in the Gospel message on the Day of Pentecost, Peter first proclaimed Jesus of Nazareth to be BOTH Lord Christ, and then he preached "Repent and baptized...". Therefore the true apostolic Gospel is that when we preach Jesus we preach Him as BOTH Lord and Christ simultaneously. There is no false dichotomy.
Is anyone saying otherwise? The FreeGrace position does not teach a Christ that is not Lord. If you didn't know that, then you do not understand it.
quote:
First of all repentance applies to BOTH Jew and Gentile, and the first word preached by Christ to the Jews was "Repent!". Secondly, repent is far more than simply turning from false Gods to the one true and living God. It is a total change of direction of one's life, as in the case of Saul of Tarsus.
If you will note carefully, you have very few passages (2, if my memory serves me correctly), where both words are used together. Generally, there is either one or the other. I think that's rather flimsy evidence.
quote]Other than the Gospel of John, we find the word repent in all the other Gospels. But does that mean that John does not teach the meaning and significance of repentance? Not at all.
Ok. You make a statement and then you go to another book of the Bible to support it. Please make your case out of John. If you believe that believing is not enough for salvation (according to John), then please show where John says that believing is not enough to be saved. Please show where (in Romans or Galatians) Paul says that faith is not enough to be saved.
quote:
In any event, the fact that it was included in the Gospel message on the Day of Pentecost is more than enough. And it cannot be an "addition" to the Gospel, since Paul himself stated (Acts 20:20,21):
Notice that (as I have said), you have to keep repeating one or two verses to make your case. Your position, as I understand it is that repentance and belief are distinct and different, yet both separate and necessary for salvation.
I could give you many, many scriptures that command faith in Christ as the condition for salvation and do not mention repentance.
Don't get me wrong, I am not "anti-repentance," lest anyone mischaracterize what I am saying.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
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