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Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 7/31/2007 4:30:25 PM
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drmark
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Say, why should the Reformed theology crowd have all the fun with their chat forum? Surely there are plenty of like-minded Holiness folks who may appreciate a safe haven to visit following a particularly grueling day at the Calvinism/Arminianism Great Debate. Also, I personally would like to hear some differing lay theological perspectives regarding some of the "finer points" of the doctrine of entire sanctification without RT distractions.
So, is anyone else of the Wesleyan/Holiness persuasion up for a little discussion here?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/1/2007 9:23:25 PM
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drmark
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It's been a month since my OP. Surely I'm not alone out here. Or is discussing holiness not considered sanctified behavior? 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 4:40:20 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Wesleyans don't teach much doctrine in their churches other than an occasional reference to free will, but, yes, they are a holiness church.
"This striking similarity between the Roman Catholic doctrines of baptism and confirmation and the Wesleyan doctrines of conversion and entire sanctification has largely gone unnoticed." - Laurence W. Wood
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/11-15/15-06.htm
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 6:24:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
My understanding is that this is not mainline Wesleyan doctrine? Certainly not any "mainline Wesleyanism" that I'm familiar with. In fact, we've had some discussions in times past in which I clearly shared Mr Wesley's very own definition of sin. "Sins properly so-called are willful transgressions against a known law of God." This hardly sounds like calling any and everything a sin and losing your salvation several times per minute! I pity those poor folks and their distorted doctrine.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 10:08:57 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Wesleyans don't teach much doctrine in their churches other than an occasional reference to free will, but, yes, they are a holiness church. I'm not sure what you mean by this, Eph 4_32. The Wesleyan Church has a very detailed OFFICIAL CREED which has significant Scriptural support for each individual doctrine. Why would pastors and teachers in this denomination not "teach much doctrine in their churches"? Surely John Wesley was known as gifted teacher of doctrine and developed one of the most well-reasoned and integrated systematic theologies ever seen in Christianity!
quote:
"This striking similarity between the Roman Catholic doctrines of baptism and confirmation and the Wesleyan doctrines of conversion and entire sanctification has largely gone unnoticed." - Laurence W. Wood
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/11-15/15-06.htm Wow, what a fabulous article; thank you so much! I'm not completely surprised by this relationship given that the Anglican Church was a direct off-shoot of the Catholic faith and John Wesley was also quite well versed in Eastern Orthodoxy. Indeed, one can say with honest appraisal that Wesleyanism is the most mainstream, middle-of-the-road, centrist Christian tradition, especially compared to the extremes of sacramental legalism in Roman Catholicism and the antinomian tendencies of hyper-Calvinism.
I really like this question from the article:
quote:
May we not look forward to a new, revitalized understanding of Christian perfection, the fullness of the Spirit, on the basis of a new appreciation of the sacraments and of the Church as an organism-the entire body of Christ-when we no longer overly stress individual experience in isolation from the "corporate" Church? Maybe some of us in today's Holiness crowd are placing too much emphasis on individual experience instead of what we can accomplish as a body of sanctified Believers. Food for thought!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 10:21:13 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Wesleyans don't teach much doctrine in their churches other than an occasional reference to free will, but, yes, they are a holiness church. I'm not sure what you mean by this, Eph 4_32... Why would pastors and teachers in this denomination not "teach much doctrine in their churches"?
How can I answer why? I haven't asked any Wesleyan pastors that question. What I meant by what I said is that in my experience, the doctrine of the Wesleyan church is not laid out in the sermons. Is your experience different than mine?
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 10:37:35 PM
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drmark
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Much different! Most Nazarene pastors I know preach holiness regularly and encourage responses for entire sanctification. Our Sunday School curriculum is loaded with issues pertaining to Christ-like living. Our denomination holds revivals, campmeetings and educational meetings throughout the world. I personally would be very uncomfortable in a church or denomination that did not teach their foundational doctrine since I wouldn't really know what they believe in. Would you?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/4/2007 10:58:17 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Much different! Most Nazarene pastors I know preach holiness regularly and encourage responses for entire sanctification. Our Sunday School curriculum is loaded with issues pertaining to Christ-like living. Our denomination holds revivals, campmeetings and educational meetings throughout the world.
I thought perhaps you had experience with the Wesleyan church. Now I can't say that Wesleyans don't encourage obedience to God. They do. But they don't explain their doctrine of entire sanctification. I didn't know what they believed about it for about 20 years when I finally found it online.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I personally would be very uncomfortable in a church or denomination that did not teach their foundational doctrine since I wouldn't really know what they believe in. Would you?
What can I say? I always want to know what churches teach and I look up statements of faith online to learn more. Without the internet, I'd be hard pressed to know what the various denominations teach.
I attended the Church of the Nazarene for a short time. I had forgotten that.
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 7:47:17 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
But they don't explain their doctrine of entire sanctification. I didn't know what they believed about it for about 20 years when I finally found it online.
Yeah - I think that varies a lot from congregation to congregation; from pastor to pastor.
Just like everyone else.....
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 6:13:12 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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I've been in three Wesleyan churches. In the first one, I never heard of a second grace or entire sanctification. In the second one (which claimed to be non-denominational) there was a pastor who had pastored a Church of the Nazarene previously and he never mentioned either of those terms. In the third one, where we attend now, I haven't heard either of those terms.
I do not belong to the Wesleyan church and I'm not planning to join it.
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 6:29:58 PM
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drmark
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Well Eph4_32, I'm speechless. They can call themselves Wesleyan in name, but until they preach and teach second blessing holiness and entire sanctification, they are not Wesleyan in doctrine!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 6:57:04 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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I'm not Wesleyan in doctrine either; no offense intended.
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 7:09:43 PM
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drmark
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No offense taken - so why are you posting on this thread? Seriously, why would you be interested in Wesleyan doctrine if you've never heard it preached or taught in three so-called Wesleyan churches. That's a bit like saying I'm not into stopping at red lights because my town is too small to have a traffic light!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 8:02:32 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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The title of the thread drew me in because I attend a Wesleyan church. I thought Wesleyan derived their doctrine from John Wesley and Jacob Arminius and in fact what you believe is part of their doctrine. You just don't hear entire sanctification from the pulpit (At least, I haven't). I did hear it from the pulpit at the Church of the Nazarene that I attended for a short while. I'm interested in what various churches teach about the Bible.
I didn't come here to argue about what you believe versus what I believe. You aren't looking for a debate; I understand that.
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/5/2007 10:32:36 PM
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drmark
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Thanks, I am not looking for debate as you say. I am looking for discussion with like-minded Christians who understand the importance of entire sanctification as a Scriptural command and strive earnestly to live a holy life victoriously over sin. I'm truly sorry that the three Wesleyan churches you've attended do not appreciate this doctrine taught and lived by their namesake. BTW, I hope you're husband is doing well - God bless.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/6/2007 2:23:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thanks, I am not looking for debate as you say. I am looking for discussion with like-minded Christians who understand the importance of entire sanctification as a Scriptural command and strive earnestly to live a holy life victoriously over sin. I'm truly sorry that the three Wesleyan churches you've attended do not appreciate this doctrine taught and lived by their namesake. BTW, I hope you're husband is doing well - God bless.
Let me say again that Wesleyans and all Christians cannot ignore the "Scriptural command and strive earnestly to live a holy life victoriously over sin." Wesleyans do preach that we should strive to live victorious lives. I would not want to attend a church that doesn't teach that. But there is a difference in how the various denominations interpret the scriptures in regard to sanctification. For instance, I believe that being brought to Christ and receiving the new birth results in a desire to turn completely away from sin; but that sanctification is a work in progress.
Thank you for asking about my husband. He's doing better at the present time. We have good days and bad days. We were able to attend church last Sunday.
I'm sorry there aren't more people responding to your thread.
God bless you also.
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/6/2007 6:55:33 AM
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DaveW
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Doctrinally the Wesleyan, Nazarene and Free Methodist churches are pretty much identical. The only difference is in how they run their church governments.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/6/2007 9:12:36 AM
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drmark
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quote:
but that sanctification is a work in progress.
According to THIS ARTICLE, the concept of heart perfection through entire sanctification representing a process has been controversial for over two centuries. I do like this exerpt from the article:
quote:
the final perfection of the Christian is not an instantaneous gift of God's grace to be received alone by the prayer of faith, but comes in the lifelong processes of a ripening Christian character.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/8/2007 11:35:44 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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I grew up in a Nazarene church and sadly there are none around here. I have not been in a Nazerene church since I was itty bitty, but I attend a southern baptist now. Without a debate can you tell me the differences or similarities between the two. One thing I like about our church is the modern worship we have. One thing I do not like is the constant talking about how we need to be saved. I live in a small town that has hitching posts outside the store for the ranchers to hitch their horses up while inside. It is not often that we get an unsaved person in our church. I want to grow as a christian and get off the milk. So how would a Holiness church be different in that regard?
_____________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword but a wise tongue brings healing.
Proverbs 12:18
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/9/2007 5:27:40 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I want to grow as a christian and get off the milk. So how would a Holiness church be different in that regard? Every evangelical church, whether Holiness in tradition or otherwise, should be sensitive to the spiritual maturity level of its attendees. If the vast majority of the present congregation are saved and trying to grow in grace, then your pastor may need a gentle nudge to move in the direction of preacing/teaching about living daily in Christlike obedience, not being resaved every Sunday. Indeed, if you're not "getting an unsaved person in your church" at least occasionally, maybe your church needs to revisit the Great Commission and look at some ways to impact the community outside the walls. I hope I'm not sounding judgemental, just suggestive.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/9/2007 10:11:46 PM
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DaveW
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What is interminally boring is knowing everyone is already born again but you still hear a salvation sermon. Over and over and over and ......
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/10/2007 12:31:28 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LesliemomofJandJ
I grew up in a Nazarene church and sadly there are none around here. I have not been in a Nazerene church since I was itty bitty, but I attend a southern baptist now. Without a debate can you tell me the differences or similarities between the two. One thing I like about our church is the modern worship we have. One thing I do not like is the constant talking about how we need to be saved. I live in a small town that has hitching posts outside the store for the ranchers to hitch their horses up while inside. It is not often that we get an unsaved person in our church. I want to grow as a christian and get off the milk. So how would a Holiness church be different in that regard?
The sermon itself in Southern Baptist churches isn't always about salvation.
Look at these devotionals:
Caring for Your Conscience
READ | 1 Timothy 1:5
Every one of us at times faces a decision that tests our character. When a choice conflicts with our value system, the “first responder” is our conscience. However, even this divine gift has been exposed to our fallen world’s programming, which means we must not only reorient but also fortify our “inner compass.”
Caring for Your Conscience
I would say that the difference between the two churches is that C of the Nazarene is Arminian and Southern Baptist embraces some Calvinistic teachings (i. e. salvation, being a gift of God, is for eternity; you can't lose it).
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/10/2007 7:53:20 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I would say that the difference between the two churches is that C of the Nazarene is Arminian and Southern Baptist embraces some Calvinistic teachings (i. e. salvation, being a gift of God, is for eternity; you can't lose it). Which certainly makes me wonder why any Baptist pastors preach salvation sermons in the first place But, that's not the purpose of this thread!
Just to clarify, the Wesleyan/Arminian position likewise holds that salvation is a gift of God. However, we are responsible for accepting, cherishing, using, and sharing that gift - otherwise, it's pretty much worthless.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Wesleyan/Holiness Chat Thread - 9/10/2007 1:16:44 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I would say that the difference between the two churches is that C of the Nazarene is Arminian and Southern Baptist embraces some Calvinistic teachings (i. e. salvation, being a gift of God, is for eternity; you can't lose it). Which certainly makes me wonder why any Baptist pastors preach salvation sermons in the first place But, that's not the purpose of this thread!
Just to clarify, the Wesleyan/Arminian position likewise holds that salvation is a gift of God. However, we are responsible for accepting, cherishing, using, and sharing that gift - otherwise, it's pretty much worthless.
Just to clarify, Baptists preach the word of God and salvation message because those who love God are obedient to Him. 
John 14
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 2
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Matthew 4
17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
1 John 2
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Matthew 10
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
You see, Baptists also read their Bibles! And it may surprise you to know that they accept, cherish, use, and share the gifts that God gives them! Isn't it amazing how God touches individuals in more than one denomination?
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