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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 4:23:55 PM
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suzanned
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Hermant Mehta has a web site for atheists, and visited many chrisitan churches. He wasnt asked to preach at WC, he was interviewed by Randy at the Wednesday night service. I think you are misconstruing what was happening and I do hope everyone reads the posts of this link you entered under "Atheist" and reads the responses.....
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 4:44:42 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
I would first get my facts straight. This wasnt a church service in which Carter spoke. It was at a leadership summit......
This is completely irrelevant to the facts I presented. Why is an avowed anti-Semite allowed to speak at an event sponsored or even held at a church? How can you possibly begin to justify this?
It's okay to admit a place has fault, all churches do. However, when you go out of your way to defend the mistakes of a church, it begins to look like a cult-like defense (this is not to say it is a cult at all, but merely that you are offering arguments defending an indefensible position).
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 4:50:20 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2475
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quote:
I would first get my facts straight. This wasnt a church service in which Carter spoke. It was at a leadership summit......
But is was at a conference of Christian leaders. so it was a church service. Anytime a collection of Christians gather one has church. Also, it was more of a motivational meeting than one of building servant leaders. In addition to Carter, present were Collin Powell and the ex-leader of HP. The program sounded very familiar to the marketing seminar being held at the RBC Center here in Raleigh.
Didn't WC also invite an Iman to speak on the Muslim faith? What's next, a witch to speak on being a WICCAN?
One doesn't need to bring in an atheist to see what it means to be one. The writings of C.S. Lewis bring amble evidence of his conversion.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 5:05:53 PM
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You are calling Carter an anti-Semite? That is pretty powerful accusation.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 5:08:37 PM
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Nesher
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There is nothing wrong with bringing in representatives of each faith when a spiritually mature audience is present and the "speech" is a debate, or a balanced view is presented after the service.
For instance, my church is attempting to bring in a Unitarian to present his beliefs before the pastoral staff, the elders, and those invited by the staff or elders. It is not an open meeting for all members, as this could cause doubt among newer or spiritually immature members.
What I am worried about is that the church may not be doing this. It may be letting those new to Christ undergo unnecessary doubt and challenges at a level they may not be prepared to handle.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 5:10:20 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
You are calling Carter an anti-Semite? That is pretty powerful accusation.
Oh absolutely. Feel free to open another thread to discuss this. Carter is most certainly an anti-Semite. I thought this was common knowledge.
It is also not a powerful accusation - this man has come out against the Jewish people and Israel multiple times. To have him on the church stage is an embarrassment to Christianity, and especially to Willow Creek.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 5:21:24 PM
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Hineni41
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Have you heard the expression...
If It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...It is a duck...
so it is with Carter...
and so it is with the foundation of WC!!
If I were you, I would really begin to search the scripture to find out the foundation you are building your faith on...
Because there will be Payday someday!!
_____________________________
Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim
Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 6:09:02 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
Hermant Mehta has a web site for atheists, and visited many chrisitan churches.
He isn't a born again believer who has repented of Atheism. He is an avowed atheist; one that chairs the Board of the SCA.
quote:
He wasnt asked to preach at WC, he was interviewed by Randy at the Wednesday night service.
He spoke at one of the WC services, right? For what reason? What possible benefit would his speaking there have for the church? He had to have been invited...he didn't just show up there and walk up on the stage, did he?
Oh, and btw, I took a little cyber trip to the WC Bookstore. Mixed in with some legitimate Christian authors were the likes of:
Rob Bell/EC
Brennan Manning/Contemplative Spirituality
Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, John Haggee/Prosperity, Positive Confession
Dutch Sheets/NAR
I could name more, but you get the idea. WC features some rather heretical teachings in their Book Store, huh?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 7:46:05 PM
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suzanned
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quote:
Oh absolutely. Feel free to open another thread to discuss this. Carter is most certainly an anti-Semite. I thought this was common knowledge.
I am not very interested in opening a thread on Jimmy Carter, however, I would like to see what he has said that makes him so in "common knowledge" antisematic. being accused of this and being one are two different things. I wasnt at this leadership conference, so I have no idea what he spoke about, however, I dont form my opinion of WC based entirely on this. Ususally they have several speakers that cover a multitude of topics over several days.
I have no problem with what I am building my foundation of faith on. I listen and read from all perspectives. I do not hold man as my foundation, but everything is sifted through Scripture for truth.
I have listened to pastors and lectors that I do not agree with and read all sorts of different religious perspectives.
I believe WC is a biblically based bible believing Church that is seeking the lost discipling the believers and is creating a teaching model for thousands of other churches.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 9:10:56 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
quote:
Oh absolutely. Feel free to open another thread to discuss this. Carter is most certainly an anti-Semite. I thought this was common knowledge.
I am not very interested in opening a thread on Jimmy Carter, however, I would like to see what he has said that makes him so in "common knowledge" antisematic. being accused of this and being one are two different things. I wasnt at this leadership conference, so I have no idea what he spoke about, however, I dont form my opinion of WC based entirely on this. Ususally they have several speakers that cover a multitude of topics over several days.
I have no problem with what I am building my foundation of faith on. I listen and read from all perspectives. I do not hold man as my foundation, but everything is sifted through Scripture for truth.
I have listened to pastors and lectors that I do not agree with and read all sorts of different religious perspectives.
I believe WC is a biblically based bible believing Church that is seeking the lost discipling the believers and is creating a teaching model for thousands of other churches.
I think Pg 213 of his book, "Peace: Not Apartheid" is pretty significant:
“It is imperative that the general Arab community and all significant Palestinian groups make it clear that they will end the suicide bombing and other acts of terrorism when international laws and the ultimate goals of the Roadmap for Peace are accepted by Israel.”
Thus, it's okay to blow up Jews until they recognize the way they treat Palestinians is wrong.
Also, let us not forget that in May of this year he spoke at UC Irvine, a college campus where the US Commission on Civil Rights has found of discrimination and racism against Jewish students by peers and faculty. Carter never took the opportunity to speak against this attribute; instead, he spent his time speaking on how oppressive Israel is, on how Jews have too much influence in America, and how Jews control our foreign diplomacy. Of course, when Monroe Freedman sent a memo to Carter in the late 1970's with recommendations for who could be on the government's Holocaust Memorial Council, we should have known that Carter would respond with , "Too many Jews." According to Carter, there were too many Jews recommended to be on the council.
Are you telling me you're fine with this man taking stage at a Christian convention? Again, in your defense of Willow Creek, you have begun to defend a racist man. This is an attempt to make Willow Creek seem pure, when obviously it is the furthest thing from it.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 10:02:16 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
and is creating a teaching model for thousands of other churches.
And, therin, lies the problem. In a time when disciples of Christ are needed more than ever, this model is producing thousands of individuals who have not been properly taught about what it means to die to self and folllow Him.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 10:10:17 PM
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suzanned
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I understand that there was a sentance in the book. You might want to read another opinion HERE
I think just as dangerous is to jump on a bandwagon when someone cries racist and pass judgement.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/2/2007 10:27:16 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
I understand that there was a sentance in the book. You might want to read another opinion HERE
I think just as dangerous is to jump on a bandwagon when someone cries racist and pass judgement.
This is why I generally refuse to join discussion boards; people attempt to act like they are savvy to the issue, when in fact they spent about 5 minutes doing a Google search.
I have had friends attend Carter's speeches, I have heard Carter speak, I have read his book, I have read articles, I have kept in touch with speeches he has given around the world - the man is not too fond of the Jews. Did you happen to ignore the rest of my post, that went beyond that one sentence in the book?
Also, let us not forget that in May of this year he spoke at UC Irvine, a college campus where the US Commission on Civil Rights has found of discrimination and racism against Jewish students by peers and faculty. Carter never took the opportunity to speak against this attribute; instead, he spent his time speaking on how oppressive Israel is, on how Jews have too much influence in America, and how Jews control our foreign diplomacy. Of course, when Monroe Freedman sent a memo to Carter in the late 1970's with recommendations for who could be on the government's Holocaust Memorial Council, we should have known that Carter would respond with , "Too many Jews." According to Carter, there were too many Jews recommended to be on the council.
Regardless, Carter is also a theological liberal, of the worst kind. There is still zero excuse for WC allowing him on the stage. There is simply no defense for their actions.
The fact is, you are going out of your way to defend Carter, because if you don't, you must admit that WC made a horrible mistake...which would go against your beliefs, correct?
< Message edited by Nesher -- 9/2/2007 10:44:46 PM >
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/3/2007 1:39:49 AM
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suzanned
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Did I indicate I was "savvy" to Carter? I never stated I was a Carter groupie. However I have read some on this because his book stirred so much controversy. I never read his book. I have read both sides of the controversy and I find that calling him an anti-Semetic is quite the statement. You brought up Carter as a speaker at the conference.
I read the rest of your statement. Carter visited many campuses and spoke on his book I believe.
I am not going out of my way to defend Carter. You are trying to manipulate this into something other than what it is. I am not saying WC made a mistake or didnt make a mistake. The staff at WC made the decision to bring him to the leadership conference to speak. It does not make WC null and void in being a church because of this.
What WC did not do is have him preach at a service nor was he the lone speaker at the conference.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/3/2007 2:00:48 AM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
Did I indicate I was "savvy" to Carter? I never stated I was a Carter groupie. However I have read some on this because his book stirred so much controversy. I never read his book. I have read both sides of the controversy and I find that calling him an anti-Semetic is quite the statement. You brought up Carter as a speaker at the conference.
I read the rest of your statement. Carter visited many campuses and spoke on his book I believe.
I am not going out of my way to defend Carter. You are trying to manipulate this into something other than what it is. I am not saying WC made a mistake or didnt make a mistake. The staff at WC made the decision to bring him to the leadership conference to speak. It does not make WC null and void in being a church because of this.
What WC did not do is have him preach at a service nor was he the lone speaker at the conference.
It does, however, cast some serious doubt onto the discernment of the WC staff. Having Jimmy Carter speak at a Christian Convention is like having Michael Vick speak at the Westminster Kennel Club - he may not be the only speaker up there, but you're still going to wonder why he's there to begin with.
It is okay to have differing views on stage, so long as the truth is presented. I'm attempting to put together a conference where Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, or Donald Miller will get up to present their views (hopefully one will agree to come). In turn, there will be someone else to present a challenge to those views. Likewise, this conference is not intended for young Christians and will take part in front of those studying theology, or laity that are spiritually mature. I would not let Jimmy Carter speak at a convention in a positive format on anything because he is an anti-Semite (someone who says Jews have too much influence in America automatically falls into this category, whether it's Jimmy Carter or Mother Theresa...not that she said it, but simply for example) and a theological liberal. These two facts simply cannot be escaped. WC, by allowing him to speak on stage in a positive format, actually have cast doubt onto their leadership abilities.
No church is immune from problems or fallibility. All churches, no matter how hard they try, will make mistakes. We live in a depraved world and Christians, though sanctified, are still fallen and susceptible to bouts of fallibility, sometimes on a minute to minute basis. Yet, we can measure the level of depravity a church as slipped into. A church that starts a program that causes minor rumblings among the congregation has made a minor mistake, one that should be fixed. Yet, if another church holds a worship service where LSD is passed out to enhance the experience, obviously we cannot simply overlook this mistake, declaring, "They are but fallible!" WC made a mistake in having Carter on that stage and, in my mind, it is a bigger mistake because it shows pragmatism in the leadership. Having Carter speak at a church is going to bring in the numbers, give legitimacy to the conference, and bring in potential membership; but all of this occurs at the cost of doctrine, theology, and glorifying God. Though this does not render WC a worthless church, or empty, or that we should begin to write ICHABOD above the door, it does mean we should take what they do with suspect and should re-think singing their praises or copying their methods.
< Message edited by Nesher -- 9/3/2007 2:16:06 AM >
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/3/2007 11:09:46 AM
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Kat_D
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Ancient Future Community is the title of one of WC's upcoming conferences. Can you guess anything by the title of the conference? Take a look at the speakers...it's like a "Who's Who in the Emergent Church."
The more you dig, the more "interesting" WC becomes. There was a certain poster in the beginning this thread that was defending WC, and I couldn't understand why because he isn't a seeker friendly guy, he's an Emergent/Contemplative Spirituality guy....now I understand.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 10:16:43 AM
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suzanned
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quote:
It does, however, cast some serious doubt onto the discernment of the WC staff. Having Jimmy Carter speak at a Christian Convention is like having Michael Vick speak at the Westminster Kennel Club - he may not be the only speaker up there, but you're still going to wonder why he's there to begin with
To you it casts some doubt. Why dont you speak to WC and ask how they came to the discernment to include Carter? You are labeling him an anti-semite, however things are not always what they seem are they. Anyone who stands out is under scrutiny. They stand out because of their courage and at the same time become the target for the very same reasons. Since you are in the know about Carter, then you would know his personal life choices either reflect or contradict antisematism. You are making conclusions that WC is somehow non christian because they chose this speaker, but what prompted them to include him? What did he speak about? What audience was present.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 10:44:23 AM
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Nesher
Posts: 729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
quote:
It does, however, cast some serious doubt onto the discernment of the WC staff. Having Jimmy Carter speak at a Christian Convention is like having Michael Vick speak at the Westminster Kennel Club - he may not be the only speaker up there, but you're still going to wonder why he's there to begin with
To you it casts some doubt. Why dont you speak to WC and ask how they came to the discernment to include Carter? You are labeling him an anti-semite, however things are not always what they seem are they. Anyone who stands out is under scrutiny. They stand out because of their courage and at the same time become the target for the very same reasons. Since you are in the know about Carter, then you would know his personal life choices either reflect or contradict antisematism. You are making conclusions that WC is somehow non christian because they chose this speaker, but what prompted them to include him? What did he speak about? What audience was present.
You're beginning to offer a "tissue defense" - throwing up a tissue to stop an arrow.
It casts doubts to anyone who holds to a Biblical worldview as to why a church would allow a theological liberal and an anti-Semite at a conference. Regardless of what the conference is about, it's purpose, or what is being taught, having someone of Carter's caliber was a pragmatic choice and not a theological one.
As I brought up, there is no denying the man is a theological liberal, possibly a unitarian. As for Carter's anti-Semitic nature, you bring up some absolutely irrelevant questions. I do not need to know him personally to know that at UC Irvine he said Jews have too much influence in America. I did not need to know Goebbels personally to know he dislikes Jews. I do not need to know Amminijad on a personal level to know he hates Israel. I do not need to golf with Carter to know He has turned his back on God's chosen people.
Regardless, there has been enough evidence given to cast doubt on Carter's beliefs on Jews. The fact is, the man has long been a suspected Anti-Semite at best, and a hardened anti-Semite at worse. Why would they allow a man like this to take the stage?
I am not questioning their Christianity; I am questioning the deepness of WC and their ability to bring glory to God. Having Carter speak on the stage, regardless of the event, makes it highly suspect to any Christian that chooses to engage his mind and believe the Bible. Those Christians that fail to think or ignore Biblical mandates, however, may not have a problem with it.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 11:20:44 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3243
Joined: 9/2/2005
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"...I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." Sometimes churches take I Corinthians 9:22 to an extreme and dangerous level, and in doing so, they become a church that exists and functions to fulfill the desires of the people described in II Timothy 4:
"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Be afraid...be very afraid.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 11:41:53 AM
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suzanned
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That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. You may judge Carter for whatever reasons you have, however, dont judge me for what you insist is somehow hidden intent behind my postings. I am not out to "win" or "lose" this. This isnt about Carter, and before I would label anyone, I would want to know the items I laid out in my prior "tissue" post. That includes WC as well as Carter.
What I have found by WC is that it has found a means to win people to Christ, disciple them and continue to grow and share their faith with thousands of other churches wanting to make a difference for Christ.
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 4:52:41 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
What I have found by WC is that it has found a means to win people to Christ, disciple them and continue to grow and share their faith with thousands of other churches wanting to make a difference for Christ.
I guess the early church didn't have it all together and lacked this means. Too bad they relied on the HS rather than a porgram.
No one is questioning the ability of the seeker model to bring people to a decision for Christ. What is being questioned is how many of those who make a decison are still walking with Christ five years afterwards?
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 5:52:30 PM
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Nesher
Posts: 729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. You may judge Carter for whatever reasons you have, however, dont judge me for what you insist is somehow hidden intent behind my postings. I am not out to "win" or "lose" this. This isnt about Carter, and before I would label anyone, I would want to know the items I laid out in my prior "tissue" post. That includes WC as well as Carter.
What I have found by WC is that it has found a means to win people to Christ, disciple them and continue to grow and share their faith with thousands of other churches wanting to make a difference for Christ.
You're ignoring the overall context of what I'm saying.
You are saying that there is nothing wrong with WC. Yet, here we have an example of WC inviting a theological liberal and an anti-Semite (even if suspected, it is a justifiable suspicion) to speak without challenge at a Christian leadership conference. This should cast doubt on the discernment and spiritual aptitude of the leadership at WC to anyone who is a Bible believer. If you are not a Bible believer, then you shouldn't feel any judgment. If you are a Bible believer, then yes, you should feel some judgment because you are not exercising proper discernment.
Likewise, finding means to get thousands of people to pray a prayer, getting people dunked, and things of this nature does not make the church. Show me in scripture where this is the mark of a successful church. The fact is, you won't find it - it's a man-made standard. The true mark of a successful church is one that brings glory to God in all that they do, or at least strive toward this and make it their number one priority. By using the example of Carter speaking at the church, we can deduct that WC does not make this [bringing glory to God] their primary goal.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Willow Creek - 9/4/2007 7:23:50 PM
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Hineni41
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Gary Bauer, the president of American Values, says for Carter to suggest the United States should have supported and subsidized Hamas affirms the former president has "gone off the deep end."
If after all the good info that has been posted here by nesher and others you are still not convinced of the error in judgement that Carter has in relation to Israel.(and many other liberal views also)
Then I am suspect we are speaking with someone who is at a very early age in your Christian walk, for these things are really spiritually discerned...and it just may be that you need to get in the Bible itself and ask the Lord how you should feel about these issues..
Only then will you understand why we are concerned about the stance this past president has taken...
he even had an aide that worked with him for years, resign because of the book that was just released..."Peace not Apartaid" because it was filled with error!
If you believe the scripture about the promises to Israel, then you will be appalled at the idea of giving any of the Holy Land up to the Arab people..
Joel warns of it...Daniel warns us of this happening.
This is going into another topic all together..
After all is said, a lot of us believe in the premillinium view of the return of Christ therefore we should be supportive of the Jewish people and Israel. Carter is not...and that goes against a very important doctrine in a dispensational church age!
So it just places Willow Creek in an unfavorable light given all the other issues involved...
But hey this country is filled with churches with wrong messeges and motives...if you like being entertained and a social club there are plenty around to choose from...
But if you want to be in on what God is up to, then you had better do as 2 Tim. 3:13-17 admonishes us to do!
_____________________________
Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim
Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem
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