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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:24:18 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
If in your conscience you feel that physical contests are sinful, then don't watch them and I won't watch them or talk about them when you are around, thus causing you to stumble. However, don't use the Bible as your basis for this, because it just doesn't teach such a thing.
This pretty much sums it all up.
matthew
You could justify just about anything by putting words in verses that aren't there.
This is all opinion.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:31:38 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 359
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
This is all opinion.
And so is yours.
Neither wrong or right. Vote your conscience.
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:43:25 PM
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Hiker02
Posts: 276
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Because this word is used in various ways. To assume it means about anger or hatred is an assumption.
To assume it means all fighting is wrong is also an assumption. Correct?
quote:
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
Because only one condition is given all other conditions are wrong?
_____________________________
"He who loves the Workman and his work, and does what he can to preserve and improve it, shall be accepted by Him." John Adams
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:46:33 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
This is all opinion.
And so is yours.
Neither wrong or right. Vote your conscience.
matthew
Where is the Bible in what you just said.
Look at what the fight venue contains: bikini clad ring girls, drunkenness, cursing, steroid abuse.
How would people know you're a Christian by watching or going to these events? You're condoning their lifestyle by giving them ratings.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:54:16 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hiker02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Because this word is used in various ways. To assume it means about anger or hatred is an assumption.
To assume it means all fighting is wrong is also an assumption. Correct?
quote:
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
Because only one condition is given all other conditions are wrong?
Proverbs 3:30 contains the word strive, it doesn't contain the word hatred or anger.
That is the difference. Otherwise, you can just say it means whatever you want it to.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:57:00 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 359
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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Hmmm, didn't Jesus hang around with sinners..? Was he not a role model for them AND a witness to them? Isn't that what we're called to be..?
If a group of work buddies gathered at my house to watch a pay-per-view boxing match, and I had the opportunity to be a witness to them at the event, wouldn't that be what the great commission is all about, and what Jesus would do..?
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 5:58:49 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 359
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
Proverbs 3:30 contains the word strive, it doesn't contain the word hatred or anger.
By the way, is this the only verse you know..? Just curious, cause I'd like to see more if you have them.
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 6:21:00 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Hmmm, didn't Jesus hang around with sinners..? Was he not a role model for them AND a witness to them? Isn't that what we're called to be..?
Jesus was there for salvation. He witnessed to them for that cause. You can do that without "hanging out"
quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
If a group of work buddies gathered at my house to watch a pay-per-view boxing match, and I had the opportunity to be a witness to them at the event, wouldn't that be what the great commission is all about, and what Jesus would do..?
matthew
You can have witness without the Boxing.
Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Where does the UFC fit in with verses 22-24.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Proverbs 3:30 is the best verse to speak against striving with men.
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/24/2007 7:24:47 PM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 6:54:59 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 610
Joined: 6/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
To want to harm another person, it would be due to an emotional response or a dispassionate and psychotic one. Like Manimal (and wow man I actually agree with you for once) said it is a test of skill.
So how do you feel about any sport that involves contact?
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:02:41 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 610
Joined: 6/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Look at what the fight venue contains: bikini clad ring girls, drunkenness, cursing, steroid abuse.
So based on your logic the following activities should not be allowed:
Any sport
Going to the beach
Public Gyms
Walking down the street
And as far as your accusation of steroids, no. Those guys are trained martial arts experts and there is a HUGE difference between them and say for example, the wrestlers of the WWE. All you have to do is just look at their builds, how much water retention do you see? Almost none and if there is any it is because they use creatine.
quote:
How would people know you're a Christian by watching or going to these events? You're condoning their lifestyle by giving them ratings.
So now you're losing the argument of "UFC is violence and the Bible condemns it", you're going to sidetrack and try to pull the CLASSIC "Christian" guilt trip? WEAK.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:05:03 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 610
Joined: 6/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
You can have them over without the Boxing and witness.
Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Where does the UFC fit in with verses 22-24.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Proverbs 3:30 is the best verse to speak against striving with men.
Ladies and gentlemen we have the worst case of scripture abuse to date. Not only do these versus completely not apply to your argument but you have taken the OP so far away from its original discussion at this point that we might as well start talking about Jedi being witches.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:08:47 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 359
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
Jesus was there for salvation. He witnessed to them for that cause. You can do that without "hanging out"
Wow. I think you really missed the point.
I think you will see that Jesus 'hung out' with all kinds of people of his day. How he acted, and re-acted, spoke, and befriended was a witness to them.
"You can have them over without the Boxing and witness." You say. I say what better way to get them there in the first place.
I think you will find that as you walk with the Lord you will discover that at times you need to meet people where they are. Not be judgemental, but with everything speak in love, and compassion.
Getting a group of non-Christian men together for a night of boxing and BBQ is an excellent way to sow seeds for the Lord without scaring them away. It's all planting seeds, my friend.
I know you will diagree with me, but believe me when I say that kind of witnessing does work. I could tell you stories...
You can't put God in a box. He works in many miraculous ways.
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:13:08 PM
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Hiker02
Posts: 276
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Jesus was there for salvation. He witnessed to them for that cause. You can do that without "hanging out
You can have them over without the Boxing and witness.
Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
No where in those verses does it say fighting is wrong so I am confused why you used them.
Here are a few verses for you to read.
Mark 2:13-17
"13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him. 15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
_____________________________
"He who loves the Workman and his work, and does what he can to preserve and improve it, shall be accepted by Him." John Adams
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:28:15 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
To want to harm another person, it would be due to an emotional response or a dispassionate and psychotic one. Like Manimal (and wow man I actually agree with you for once) said it is a test of skill.
So how do you feel about any sport that involves contact?
Psalm Chapter 35
1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
Exodus ch 21
18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
All use the word strive to describe a fight.
Proverbs says not to "strive" with men without a cause. Arguing, fighting, you aren't to do it unless they do you harm.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:29:45 PM
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Hiker02
Posts: 276
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hiker02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Because this word is used in various ways. To assume it means about anger or hatred is an assumption.
To assume it means all fighting is wrong is also an assumption. Correct?
quote:
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
Because only one condition is given all other conditions are wrong?
Proverbs 3:30 contains the word strive, it doesn't contain the word hatred or anger.
That is the difference. Otherwise, you can just say it means whatever you want it to.
Please give me your definition of strive.
_____________________________
"He who loves the Workman and his work, and does what he can to preserve and improve it, shall be accepted by Him." John Adams
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:31:37 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 610
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Psalm Chapter 35
1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
Exodus ch 21
18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
All use the word strive to describe a fight.
Proverbs says not to "strive" with men without a cause. Arguing, fighting, you aren't to do it unless they do you harm.
I am actually stunned at the ridiculous level you are trying to take this. Can someone say REEEACCHING? At no point have you refuted the difference between a test of combative skill and someone intending you harm.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:41:50 PM
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Hiker02
Posts: 276
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
It only mentions harm. It gives a condition to strive with someone, if they mean to do you harm. If they don't mean to do you harm, then you have no cause to strive.
To want to harm another person, it would be due to an emotional response or a dispassionate and psychotic one. Like Manimal (and wow man I actually agree with you for once) said it is a test of skill.
So how do you feel about any sport that involves contact?
Psalm Chapter 35
1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
Exodus ch 21
18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
All use the word strive to describe a fight.
Proverbs says not to "strive" with men without a cause. Arguing, fighting, you aren't to do it unless they do you harm.
Are these verses talking about competive fighting? I would say no.
_____________________________
"He who loves the Workman and his work, and does what he can to preserve and improve it, shall be accepted by Him." John Adams
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:43:09 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
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I'm not using logic. Solomon uses the word strive, not me.
Where does the beach, the gym, or sports fit in with strive?
As far as UFC fighters on steroids: http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ki-roids071907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Stephan Bonnar, Nate Marquardt, Josh Barnett, Tim Sylvia.
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/sports/060907/s090762.html
Vitor Belfort
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Dec-06-Wed-2006/sports/11249274.html
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Look at what the fight venue contains: bikini clad ring girls, drunkenness, cursing, steroid abuse.
So based on your logic the following activities should not be allowed:
Any sport
Going to the beach
Public Gyms
Walking down the street
And as far as your accusation of steroids, no. Those guys are trained martial arts experts and there is a HUGE difference between them and say for example, the wrestlers of the WWE. All you have to do is just look at their builds, how much water retention do you see? Almost none and if there is any it is because they use creatine.
quote:
How would people know you're a Christian by watching or going to these events? You're condoning their lifestyle by giving them ratings.
So now you're losing the argument of "UFC is violence and the Bible condemns it", you're going to sidetrack and try to pull the CLASSIC "Christian" guilt trip? WEAK.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 7:57:59 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 610
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
I'm not using logic. Solomon uses the word strive, not me.
Where does the beach, the gym, or sports fit in with strive?
It doesn't, but you're the one that mentioned the "venue" being a bad place for "Christians" to go to. You were using trying to associate (and thus changing the basis of your argument) certain "issues" that some "Christians" may have with aspects of the venue to UFC not being biblical... and you failed.
And to your steroid references, those are a few minor cases, you inferred in your initial accusation that steroids ran rampant within the UFC, and to that I replied... No.
And you still haven't provided us "biblical evdience" to support that a sport is a violent act against another person.
Here is a question for you. Does your "scriptural evidence" apply to all contact sports?
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 8:06:11 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
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Combativeness, sport, competition, condoning adults, none of this is said in Proverbs.
None of this is a cause to fight. Only if someone means to do you harm, than you have a right to self defense.
As far as Jesus eating with sinners, that is true.
However, John tells all others to do something different.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 8:15:35 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
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Those are minor? All those people are considered the elite of their profession. Vitor Belfort is a christian too.
The Bible says you will know if something is Godly by its fruit. That was just another example. The topic is the UFC isn't Biblical it's not Christain. I didn't say the UFC not being Biblical hinged on Proverbs 3:30.
None of you have been able to use the Bible to say that sport fighting is Biblical.
Those other verses containing the word strive, defines the word on its own.
Every time, it is used to describe arguing and fighting. Either way, Proverbs says not to do it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
I'm not using logic. Solomon uses the word strive, not me.
Where does the beach, the gym, or sports fit in with strive?
It doesn't, but you're the one that mentioned the "venue" being a bad place for "Christians" to go to. You were using trying to associate (and thus changing the basis of your argument) certain "issues" that some "Christians" may have with aspects of the venue to UFC not being biblical... and you failed.
And to your steroid references, those are a few minor cases, you inferred in your initial accusation that steroids ran rampant within the UFC, and to that I replied... No.
And you still haven't provided us "biblical evdience" to support that a sport is a violent act against another person.
Here is a question for you. Does your "scriptural evidence" apply to all contact sports?
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/24/2007 8:23:40 PM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 8:29:11 PM
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Hiker02
Posts: 276
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Combativeness, sport, competition, condoning adults, none of this is said in Proverbs.
None of this is a cause to fight. Only if someone means to do you harm, than you have a right to self defense.
So because the Bible doesn't specifically say competitive fighting is o.k. it has to be wrong?
quote:
As far as Jesus eating with sinners, that is true.
However, John tells all others to do something different.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I believe you are reaching here. I interpret this passage as saying if anyone comes to you trying to actively persude you to turn away from Christ and pursue their particular doctrine then you turn them away. I don't believe asking some people over to watch a fight is what John was talking about.
_____________________________
"He who loves the Workman and his work, and does what he can to preserve and improve it, shall be accepted by Him." John Adams
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 8:43:30 PM
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Timcp
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hiker02
So because the Bible doesn't specifically say competitive fighting is o.k. it has to be wrong?
Yes, if the Bible speaks against it, then it's not Biblical.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hiker02
I believe you are reaching here. I interpret this passage as saying if anyone comes to you trying to actively persude you to turn away from Christ and pursue their particular doctrine then you turn them away. I don't believe asking some people over to watch a fight is what John was talking about.
2 John
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 8:59:12 PM
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Hiker02
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