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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 3:30:04 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1726
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
And how do you distinguish between the temporary
and continual rejection?
Perseverance doctrine presupposes continual rejection
not possible for the true believer.
1 John tells us if we live in continual, wilfull sin we do not know him.
How long? I don't know.....our internal witness convicts us.
God knows the heart - we don't judge.
But many are assured of their justification based
on believing, but not the work of God inevitable in them.
quote:
If Solomon of today falls away and worships
other gods today how do you know if he is
saved or not?
Because He knows his sheep and his sheep know Him.
Because He who began a good work will finish it.
Because we abide in Him.
I don't. Why should we teach this? We want to burn
everything down to the bare foundation? Its for God
to judge,
but how do we know who to evanglize, dear - just ask
them if they ever believed and walk off, knowing many
are tragically deceived?
No, we must keep preaching the whole gospel which
includes fruit and perseverance so they can know that
they have been born again.
1 John gives the test. 1 Cor 13:5 tells us to take it.
Personally, I am convicted of sin almost the moment I commit it.
And I think this is true for the believer - as we sin the internal
witness of the Holy Spirit immediately convicts us - we know
we have done wrong to God the second we do it (most times
even before when conceived in the mind).
quote:
If the truck hits him and kills him instantly before
he repents and stops doing that he is lost? You have to
give up your OSAS belief to be consistent with this,rwe.
First, I am not OSAS, I am IFAS (If saved, always saved) or
, IFAP (always persevering).
Its not for me to judge someone's status with God.
Will he let one of his live in continual, unrepentant sin?
Yes, but for how long?
We are no longer slaves to sin, we have been set free.
So my view is how high/wide the mountaintops,
not how wide/deep the valleys......
Someone may be living an unfruitful life and be saved, surely.
Should we assure them or tell them they must repent?
Assure them based on what? They "believed once"?
And again, someone may 'appear' to bear much fruit and
not know him. How do we know them? They need to
be saved just like the unfruitful one.
I think we must rely on discernment of the Spirit and God
leading us to the one's whose hearts are truly repentant.
Not justify the possibly unjustified because we think its
either no fruit or lots of fruit. Or because we think
fruit inevitable = sinless perfection or something.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 4:05:57 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1726
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quote:
Rwe- if you believe that OT way of salvation was
something else then faith in Messiah and being born again
we have major disagreements on a more essential level....
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
I thought OT justification came through obedience, not faith.
You know, "Abraham obeyed God and it was credited to him as righteousness".................
This covenant didn't work, so God made a new covenant.
NT salvation comes through faith by grace, not works.
quote:
Yes, OT saint expected to persevere and were
subject to sanctification – do you think otherwise?
Please answer before we move any further.
Who are you talking about, Ode?
Are you viewing sanctification and perseverance as works?
By OT saints - you mean those chosen by God, or
those special ones who were ultimately saved because
God held them for the gospel?
Because there were no saints in the sense of righteous ones.
Could you give me an example of OT saint being sanctified?
If God does the work of sanctification, and God
enables us to persevere, is this OT or NT theology?
Didn't think anyone possessed Holy Spirit before Jesus,
so how is sanctification and perseverance possible?
Looking forward to your answer.
Getting sick of rotten fruit, anyway. 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 9:40:13 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1901
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quote:
FG says all the time that the dead faith mentioned in James is still saving faith. Do you agree with him?
I know too much about use and interpretation of Torah parables,know and own a Hebrew mindset to built theology on parables, idiomatic wordings and allegorical sayings of the Scripture. There are tons of different ways to interpret "dead faith", "parable of the soils" etc.
I do believe that anybody can hit dry periods when his faith produces little, or almost no visible to others fruit. That doesn’t mean he gets unsaved, unborn again or was never saved. Also a newly born believer is a milkdrinking child and his fruit can be invisible.
This is the whole disagreement I have with LS. McArtur says only mature believers that produce much fruit are saved. I gave excerpts from the book. ( Nevermind when it comes to his church he tolerates immaturity,read his joint’s position on divorce – of course, so it would not hurt the church numbers:)
quote:
That’s all we are saying. Warn people and not assure them. I don’t think the sides are all that far apart  ... All that witch hunt recently popular on this thread is generally against the imaginary evils of FG, not the real ones.
I would warn people who, as you said,clearly produce only works of the flesh (like drunks, whoremongers ..but first and foremost I would warn Pharisees that believed to be decent, respectful people, active in church ministries) that they could be mistaken about their faith and in fact be Matt 7: 23 crowd. This is the only slight difference I have with FG – unless he clarifies when he is back - I know that a person can think he is believing the gospel, but in fact believe something else. Person can be confused as for what true gospel is.
So I would warn them to search their heart – is there true faith? Not warn them in a sense- well, if you stop drinking, sleeping around, and acting as a pharisee etc.. and you will prove your salvation. Works are not the assurance. Granted, we don’t know who is saved and who isn’t, but let me tell you , dear friend – my personal assurance of my salvation is because of my faith. Not works or what might appear as fruit.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 9:42:23 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1901
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quote:
Aw, come on, Odeliya....where's the fun if we're not here to argue...lol
you right, K.I must be losing it... too tired, i will answer you tomorrow.
quote:
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
oh, friend, that is nice of you to ask me but I am not as knowledgable ..I am self taught basically.I think all are saved the same way-OT or NT
I would ask smart ones here. K-man, want to answer about OT saints ? If K is unavailable, maybe Bee, or td,manna, I don’t know. Oh,TheoC went to seminary, he will know for sure.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 12:00:39 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
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quote:
Willing to do something and being able are absolutely not related in any way. Let me illustrate. A man without legs is quite willing to run a race, but because he is without legs he is unable to run.
But give him legs and he'll run a marathon. That's was the point I was trying to get at. Our wills are captive, but we do things according to what we are capable of doing. If you are hungry and desire food, you use your two legs (assuming you have two good legs) go to refrigerator and fulfill your desire. You ultimately do what you are pleased to do within the bounds of what you are capable of doing.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 3:45:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
But our by-laws state that members are "born again believers who give
evidence of their faith." What does this mean? The elders are between a rock and a hard place. Someone applies for membership and gives all the right answers. The elders take him at his word - in some cases, his very well articulated word. I think that is the "evidence of their faith" you mentioned.
A very real problem is that pastors preach as if to a saved congregation when nothing is further from the truth. I think the salvation message, both positive and negative, is not preached often enough.
quote:
The by-laws are coming up for review.
What is the minimum standard for "evidence"?
Church attendance, SS attendance?
How do you do it? An applicant for membership should be asked what he expects to participate in after being given a description of church activities. At least this way he knows something is expected of him.
quote:
Two of the men I just described are on the committee and one is chairman!
In the last meeting he said "We can leave all that Scripture out and simplify
this thing down to 3 or 4 pages." Why were they chosen to be on the church committee? It seems to me that "tares" are now active in running the church - a dangerous thing, don't you think? Obviously, we can't have 100% assurance of anyone's salvation. Still, we need not choose those to be on church committees who are not readily giving evidence of spirituality by growing in grace which a lack of interest in Scripture would indicate.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 3:58:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
oh, friend, that is nice of you to ask me but I am not as knowledgable ..I am self taught basically.I think all are saved the same way-OT or NT
I would ask smart ones here. K-man, want to answer about OT saints ? If K is unavailable, maybe Bee, or td,manna, I don’t know. Oh,TheoC went to seminary, he will know for sure.
I'm having this same conversation right now with greatdivide in the "are you saved but not baptized" thread.
I agree, all OT saints were saved in precisely the same manner as NT saints - by the baptism of the Holy Spirit/indwelling of the Holy Spirit/being born from above. All the elect were named and Christ is the Lamb slain - from before the foundation of the world.
God gave the promise of a new heart and a new spirit to Israel in Eze 36:26 which is synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We know specifically David and Job were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Greatdivide brought up 1Cor 12:13 as possibly being the NT version of Eze 36:26 which I think is a good point, though, Ezekiel does have a dual application. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 8:12:46 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 315
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
I know too much about use and interpretation of Torah parables,know and own a Hebrew mindset to built theology on parables, idiomatic wordings and allegorical sayings of the Scripture. There are tons of different ways to interpret "dead faith", "parable of the soils" etc.
I do believe that anybody can hit dry periods when his faith produces little, or almost no visible to others fruit. That doesn’t mean he gets unsaved, unborn again or was never saved. Also a newly born believer is a milkdrinking child and his fruit can be invisible.
quote:
So I would warn them to search their heart – is there true faith? Not warn them in a sense- well, if you stop drinking, sleeping around, and acting as a pharisee etc.. and you will prove your salvation. Works are not the assurance. Granted, we don’t know who is saved and who isn’t, but let me tell you , dear friend – my personal assurance of my salvation is because of my faith. Not works or what might appear as fruit.
I agree. very good post.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 10:34:14 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1656
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quote:
By the fact that Judas followed Jesus around for three years isn’t showing allegiance or an open admission that Christ was who he said he was?
Following around is not in the definition of "profess" nor a "professor" . Judas could very well have followd Jesus around for the purpose of dipping into the money bag at his every whim . It was certainly not an open admission of anything .
quote:
Is Salvation to you saying some kind of magic words of profession?
The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise : "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus , and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
That is salvation to me ; if you want to call them magic words , that's fine with me .
quote:
Do you actually believe that everyone at your church who professes faith is truly a believer?
I guess we need to lead the entire congregation (one at a time) into a pitch black room , with a small desk and a couple of chairs , one single light bulb in the middle , hanging down from a cord , and hammer on them for a few days or maybe a week , and see how many of these professed believers we can break ? Or , maybe we could strap them down on a rack and start turning the crank until these so called professers confess that they were only professers and not posessers . Want to come to my church next week and be first ?
quote:
I didn’t realize how much the example of Judas would offend.
I'm not offended ; but just as I previously noted , Judas is not a good example .
quote:
There was an unbelieving betrayer among the apostles and they are still there today. Jesus purged out the tare then and he will purge out all those who work iniquity from his kingdom in the end.
That's the reason I'm leaving it up to Jesus , and not trying to play the judge myself .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 10:48:21 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1656
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Salvation is either "by grace through faith plus works".... or.... "by grace through faith and not of works"...period ; now which do you say it is ?
I would evangelize first those who have been brainwashed into believing "works" have anything whatsoever to do with salvation .
And I agree.
So.......if you agree , why rant on and on ?
quote:
So, Bee, are you one of those who has been immunized against
works to the point where the mere mentioned makes you sick?
When someone tries to mix works into salvation then yes I am one of those .
quote:
Or do you need an allergy shot when the word is mentioned
in the same sentence as salvation?
No , but the one mentioning it needs a shot of Biblical truth .
quote:
Works DO have something do to with salvation, Bee, its
just taught on the wrong side of salvation in some denoms.
Provide some Scriptural support then .
quote:
I have never advocated works unto salvation. Those who
believe works have no place do not see the other side
of being born again like I do.
I'm glad I don't see things as you do .
quote:
So, you would assume the fruitless professor is saved, too?
I'm not the fruit inspector .
quote:
I think thats' a big mistake, too, friend.
I've read a lot of the stuff you think , I'm not impressed as yet .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 11:01:43 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1656
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
No , you are telling me that without evidence of good
works we're not even getting there .
Its called sanctification and spiritual growth, Bee.
You would be closer to the truth if you left the sanctification part up to God .
quote:
Every believer is predestined to it (Rom 8) in this life.
I think you have read the wrong meaning into it . The goal of predestination is the believers glorification . That is when the believer comes into the image of Christ .
quote:
There IS a way for us to know we are saved in this life.
Agreed , that way is to trust in the promises of God .
quote:
Salvation , justification , sanctification , glorification ,
are all completely the work of God , the believer can neither
add anything to it nor take anything away from it .
quote:
Then how can you deny it may ever take place?
I never have , you have .
quote:
You acknowledge God in control, but only if man gives it to him?
A believer only produces fruit acceptable to God when said one is willfully submitted to the Holy Spirit .
quote:
I don't understand that.
That is readily apparent to me .
quote:
Its a position (by grace we have been savED Eph 2)
and a process (for those of us who are BEING saved...1 Cor 1:18)
and a destination (we WILL be saved...Rom 10:9)
Why do you believe that you can add anything to that process ?
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 11:16:06 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1656
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quote:
quote:
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
quote:
oh, friend, that is nice of you to ask me but I am not as knowledgable ..I am self taught basically.I think all are saved the same way-OT or NT
I would ask smart ones here. K-man, want to answer about OT saints ? If K is unavailable, maybe Bee, or td,manna, I don’t know. Oh,TheoC went to seminary, he will know for sure.
I don't say this out of disrespect nor a mean spirit , but.......this misunderstanding of salvation explains a lot of the difficulty I seem to be having in conversing with rwe . I would suggest that the man take some time off from a theological debate and spend some time learning the milk of the word .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 3:41:07 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1726
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
I would suggest that the man take some time off from a
theological debate and spend some time learning the milk
of the word .
Freegrace - are you impersonating Bee???
My theology too simple and unintellectual, IOW, wrong?
I would submit my theology is more mainline
than FG theology. My theology says when we have an
encounter with Jesus Christ we ARE forever changed.
FG theology says maybe, maybe not and puts man
in control of what is God's domain.
I know this, though - God saved me and is saving me
and will save me in the end.
I am a new creature. God has entered my life and radically
changed my priorities and desires. I believe this is the
result of being born again and is for ALL who believe.
I interpret Scripture through these presuppositions which
are biblically based as I understand God's word.
I think there is something wrong at the very foundation of
Christianity today and I am firmly convinced it is
the result of decisionist theology and man-centered
approaches to salvation. I am confident and biblically
assured that when a person is saved, something real
happens to them.
This idea that you can have confidence and assurance
based what you think you believe is one I used to
subscribe till God regenerated my heart and I realized
a surely as I breathe that I was deceived. I did not
know him and the power of the what I received.
Trusting in a decision, what we believe or how we feel
is simply shifting ground and not evidence of salvation.
So many get their confidence in what they "think" and
so many are deceived about their regeneration. It is
NOT invisible and it is very effectual in lifestyle change.
They can claim the promises of the Bible all they want,
but this is not evidence of regeneration.
I believe the biblical fact is new creatures do new things
and have new desires and live new lifestyles.
Personally, I'll be confident in the fact that God began a good work
in me and will see it to the end. He will not let me fall
away, he has saved me for good works, and I am predestined
to sanctification IN THIS LIFE.
1 John gives the tests, Cor 13:5 tells us to take it.
God wants us know we are saved in this life and one
main test is love for one another.
Christianity is not a mental exercise nor an intellectual
interpretation game. Christianity is a radical process
whereby the dead are made alive and the old has passed away.
Read Heb 11:1 - you think faith is mental assent? Impossible.
Tragically, I think many are saved in their minds only because
they have been victimized by false theology like FG.
I pray you and FG are not one of these.
If you think my theology is so far off from the truth,
maybe its time for a poll of the learned ones on this thread.
Until then, I like my steak medium rare with a glass of milk, please.
Sorry for the length. Appreciate you if you read it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 9:56:35 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
Works are not the assurance.
Not to deny that salvation is by faith alone but what did the apostle John mean when he wrote....
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says 'I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:3-4
That sounds like assurance to me.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 1:21:25 AM
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Destiny7777
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Joined: 5/2/2008
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Hi,
Hope it's ok to just jump in.
I've been reading the conversation for a while and have a few thoughts. I was looking at Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
I believe this Scripture addressing Church Discipline can be applied to this conversation (please correct me if I'm wrong). We are not able to determine if one who confesses Christ and then falls away is or was ever a believer or not, but Scripture admonishes us to treat them as a pagan or tax collector - iow as a candidate for evangelism. We love them and share Christ with them, but don't offer them any assurance of salvation. Instead we point out to them their need of salvation. Whether they are truly saved or not only the Lord knows. Our instructions say, treat them as their fruit dictates.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 5:47:48 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1726
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
quote:
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
quote:
oh, friend, that is nice of you to ask me but I am not as knowledgable ..I am self taught basically.I think all are saved the same way-OT or NT
I would ask smart ones here. K-man, want to answer about OT saints ? If K is unavailable, maybe Bee, or td,manna, I don’t know. Oh,TheoC went to seminary, he will know for sure.
I don't say this out of disrespect nor a mean spirit , but.......this misunderstanding of salvation explains a lot of the difficulty I seem to be having in conversing with rwe . I would suggest that the man take some time off from a theological debate and spend some time learning the milk of the word .
I've thought about this - somebody help me out if I'm wrong, please.
OT - salvation through obedience to the law. Sanctification through sacrifice of animals.
Certain ones received grace (Noah) and others were chosen by God, but none were
saved until....
Isn't "I will give you a new heart" is prophecy? Who was born again in the OT?
I can't think of anyone at this time.
NT - ultimate sacrifice, law fulfilled for us, salvation by grace through faith.
Nobody was in heaven, i.e. nobody was saved before Jesus.
Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prision.
The OT saints received the gospel and were saved just like everyone else.
What am I misunderstanding?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 6:16:38 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
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Del,
quote:
McArtur says only mature believers that produce much fruit are saved. I gave excerpts from the book.
Please forgive me for jumping in the middle of this again (I have been very busy) - I remember you giving excerpts from MacArthur, but I would be interested in the book title and page numbers so I can read the excerpts in context. I am very interested to do so because after reading The Gospel According to Jesus and Hard to Believe over a year ago I do not remember MacArthur's position being that only mature Christians that produce fruit are saved. If he holds that position I won't read any more of his books, so I am very interested to follow up on this.
In my mind there appears to be a misunderstanding of the charge of “Lordship Salvation” (like MacArthur I don’t like this phrase coined by the detractors of MacArthur’s teaching). It looks as if there are some who charge that LS is . . .
faith in Christ plus submission to the lordship of Christ,
where my view is . . .
faith in Christ includes recognition of and willing & glad submission to the lordship of Christ.
In other words, you cannot separate who Christ really is (the Lord) from faith in Him. If someone sees the Lord Jesus Christ for who He really is – the Lord – and has faith in Him (trusts Him in the reality of who He is and what He has done), this person’s lifestyle will to some degree reflect this faith in Christ. There can be no repentance of sin and faith in Christ if there is no understanding of what sin is – rebellion against the lordship of Christ; a willful resistance to lovingly, joyfully and willingly submitting to Him who is Lord of the universe. Genuine faith in Christ of necessity is a change of mind concerning God’s sovereign and holy rule over the universe and my own rebellious, unloving, ungrateful and dishonoring sin against His rule. If there is a true change of mind concerning what is right and what is wrong, it will be seen in my behavior.
I totally disagree with the position that only those who are mature Christians are saved Christians (all genuine Christians are saved). There are differing levels of maturity – “from faith to faith,” “from glory to glory,” “being conformed to the image of His Son,” all indicate development and progressing maturity. But I also hold to the position that says that if there is absolutely no fruit of righteousness in someone’s life, it shows that this person’s belief is not true biblical faith (there are people who have radically wrong beliefs concerning Jesus Christ). I am not speaking of subjective fruit inspectors, but objective theology – if there is absolutely no life there will be no fruit. A person that claims belief in Christ but has no life will produce no fruit, thus has no true biblical faith.
Blessings,
SH
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-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 6:54:06 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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john_mark,
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yes i found your view of fallen man to be refreshing. some people who hold to the reformed view deny that ability exisits in fallen man, but i believe that scripture supports ability. we may disagree on whether or not fallen man does obey, but we do seem to have a point of agreement on ability.
Man's inability is based upon his bent towards unwillingness to treasure God and his resistance to submit to Him. Man has the equipment needed to obey, just not the heart that joyfully marvels at God and lovingly obeys Him. For example: fallen man can direct his will however he wants and can use his brain to comprehend the Bible. But what fallen man lacks is an approbation or loving agreement to that which he comprehends. In other words, he does not spiritually see and understand (1 Cor 2, 2 Cor 4:4-6).
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i would say that fallen man at least occasionally does good and/or obeys God. i would cite romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
noting that in verse 14 paul says that they do the things of the Law.
the hardening pharoah was only necessary if he could have done what was right from a fallen nature. if a fallen nature will never do what is right there was no need for a further hardening.
so i would say that sometimes fallen man does do what is required of him. he disobeys or obeys from his nature.
The Pharisees had the ability to do some of the things of the law, but they totally missed the heart of the law. Therefore, they ultimately did not obey the law even in their intense desire to keep the law.
Even though fallen nature may do some things that are right, they are never truly right - for only loving and treasuring God and willingly submitting to Him by joyfully yielding to Him is right. Rightness is not doing right things, but seeing the glory of God as most beautiful, most satisfying and the most supreme treasure and all the actions that follow this kind of view of God.
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a believer does things from his nature. he obeys and sins from his nature. when he obeys is he doing so because his nature changed, or is he doing because of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit?
From my limited understanding I would say both. A believer is born again, something radical has taken place in his being – and – God is at work in him so that he wants to do that which pleases God, thus will choose to do that which pleases God.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:19:48 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1656
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: umcbee
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Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
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oh, friend, that is nice of you to ask me but I am not as knowledgable ..I am self taught basically.I think all are saved the same way-OT or NT
I would ask smart ones here. K-man, want to answer about OT saints ? If K is unavailable, maybe Bee, or td,manna, I don’t know. Oh,TheoC went to seminary, he will know for sure.
I don't say this out of disrespect nor a mean spirit , but.......this misunderstanding of salvation explains a lot of the difficulty I seem to be having in conversing with rwe . I would suggest that the man take some time off from a theological debate and spend some time learning the milk of the word .
I've thought about this - somebody help me out if I'm wrong, please.
OT - salvation through obedience to the law. Sanctification through sacrifice of animals.
Certain ones received grace (Noah) and others were chosen by God, but none were
saved until....
I'm glad you have thought about this ; it was what I was refering too in my post #29087 , not your entire theology .
OT - salvation was never through obedience to the law , it was the same as NT salvation , by faith . I refer you to Romans 4:1-3 for a very clear understanding : 1) What then shall we say that Abraham , our forefather according to the flesh has found ? 2) For if Abraham was justified by works , he has something to boast about , but not before God . 3) For what does the Scripture say ? Abraham believed God , and it was credited to him as righteousness . Righteousness was never imputed to Abraham because he obeyed , but because he believed (which is called faith) . Abraham was reckoned righteousness apart from the law , the law was given 430 years after Abraham ; so there is no possible way that righteousness was credited to him by obeying the law .
I don't believe that sanctification was through animal sacrifice's ; they were sacrifice's for sin , peace , firstfuits , ect.
Grace has always been given to believers ; the entire nation of ethnic Israel was elect and chosen by God in the OT . And yes , people were saved in the OT times .
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Isn't &q | | | |
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