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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:47:05 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2008
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Hi,
I would like to thank everyone for their patient replies to all my questions on the parable of the sower. I can really see the points that both sides are making, so I am very appreciative of everyone sharing their views. It is also obvious to me that each responder is genuinely honest about their convictions on the passage.
There's one thing I'm a little confused about, though (probably a lot more than one, but for this post anyway - LOL).
Odeliya says:
quote:
Fruit, if we look at it closely, is always present in a true believer, all on this thread already agreed on that. Acc to Gal.5 faith and love and humbleness,all that etc.are fruit which is and have to be present to a degree once a person truly believes. He is humbled, he loves God and has faith , he truly repents - all that is truly fruit of HS.
But as for evident fruit to others- that can be missing or virtually invisible. That is what basically under debate - how much visible fruit means you are a believer?
and then FreeGrace says:
quote:
It is interesting to note that the end of v.14 says "and bring no fruit to maturity", which supports my view. You have to have a plant before you have fruit, but the reformed view is that there will be fruit in each and every believer. Since the Bible is clear that we are to grow up in our faith, their view seems rather contrary to Scripture .
Am I misunderstanding something or do you two have 2 different views of whether fruit is always present in a believer? I do understand that we're not here talking about fruit that is observable to the human eye, but the fruit that follows salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 6:42:40 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 170
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
excellent point, br. FG!
humans are humans. Versions of parables aren’t written by lawyers as a contract, but by regular people,so we cant try to dissect every word but should look at it as a whole.
Especially that former tax collector guy, apostle Matthew’s account – that is a typical IRS employee, allright. His sower story is so generic and brief, you got to use your own imagination to get the full picture.
Now wait just a fruit pickin minute Del, who is that dissects every word rather than looking at the parable as a whole? FG is the very one guilty of just that. The parable taken as a whole and in context says very plainly that things don't look good for those who are fruitless. To say otherwise is reading something into the parable that was never intended to be there.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 6:56:03 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 170
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Del,
quote:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
I see your logic, but in my mind there is a gap in it. Plant + Fruit does not necessarily mean faith + works for salvation.
We cannot boast in the fruit we produce. The branches cannot boast in themselves because we don't bear the root but the root bears us.
What is your definition of sanctification Del?
We are saved or justified by grace and we are sanctified by grace. There is not difference between the two.
Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me,and gave himself up for me.
The fruit that we produce is not of ourselves but by faith in Jesus Christ. He is the one who gets the glory not us.
The bible says greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. Is He great enough to save us from the penalty of sin but not great enough to actuall change us so that we produce fruit in our lives?
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 8:28:00 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1452
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
We are saved or justified by grace and we are sanctified by grace. There is not difference between the two.
I'm not Del , but I would like to inject a comment . Justified and sanctified are not interchangeable terms . Justified in being declared righteous , sanctified is being set apart .
quote:
The bible says greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. Is He great enough to save us from the penalty of sin but not great enough to actuall change us so that we produce fruit in our lives?
Every believer builds on the foundation of Jesus Christ . What he builds is called deeds , or works , or fruit , which ever you prefer . There are two types of fruit with which to build ; one type is gold , silver , precious stones ; the other type is wood , hay , stubble ; one type is good fruit , the other type is bad fruit . The fire of the judgment seat of Christ will test each man's work (fruit) to see what type it is . The one whose work (fruit) is all burned up in the fire will suffer lose , but , he himself will still be saved . Good fruit production is not automatic for a believer ; this is what Paul was explaining . We are pretty much constantly encouragred and commanded to produce fruit worthy of the grace and salvation bestowed on us by God . If it were automatic , then there are plenty of wasted warnings , commands , and admonitions for believers to be diligent in doing so .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 8:29:02 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1462
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
What?
quote:
Why then do you have so much trouble interpreting the clear
understanding that no one was or ever will be saved by obedience to the law.
Why would you even think I don't believe this?
What was the Law for?
Are any modern day Jews saved outside of faith in Christ?
quote:
RWE: Please show where Heb 11 says anyone was saved by faith in Christ.
BEE: Is your mouth.....errrr fingers.......big enough for both your feet at the same time ?
Please show me. I read the chapter and do not see it.
This thread is not for theological beginners who do not understand the
very elementary doctrines of faith and how those of OT times were saved .
You asking me to leave the forum?
quote:
Please do some research and study.
I do that all the time, oh learned one.
I think John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 apply to OT saints, too.
I don't know of anytime any OT person received the gospel.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:35:42 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 170
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
I'm not Del , but I would like to inject a comment . Justified and sanctified are not interchangeable terms . Justified in being declared righteous , sanctified is being set apart .
Yes, there is a difference between justified and sanctified. I wasn't saying that they are interchangeable terms but how they are accomplished is by the same means. By grace through faith.
CHAPTER 3
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the
flesh?
We finish the same way we began. That is what Paul meant when he said that it is no longer I that lives but Christ in me.
quote:
Good fruit production is not automatic for a believer ; this is what Paul was explaining . We are pretty much constantly encouragred and commanded to produce fruit worthy of the grace and salvation bestowed on us by God . If it were automatic , then there are plenty of wasted warnings , commands , and admonitions for believers to be diligent in doing so .
It's not automatic in the sense that a new believer already has all knowledge or even all willingness in the beginning. Warnings and teachings are granted to us for us to increase in knowledge and chastesisements for us to be made willing when we don't heed those warnings.
In other words the warnings, commands, and admonitions are the means which God uses to sanctify us through the Spirit.
We do all these through faith though. Do you agree?
If someone constantly rebels against the commands, doesn't heed the warnings, and doesn't seem to have any chasetisment for it then the conclusion is that they are an illegetimate child and not a son.
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 12:18:48 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
humans are humans. Versions of parables aren’t written by lawyers as a contract, but by regular people,so we cant try to dissect every word but should look at it as a whole.
Especially that former tax collector guy, apostle Matthew’s account – that is a typical IRS employee, allright. His sower story is so generic and brief, you got to use your own imagination to get the full picture.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 12:24:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
Hi,
I would like to thank everyone for their patient replies to all my questions on the parable of the sower. I can really see the points that both sides are making, so I am very appreciative of everyone sharing their views. It is also obvious to me that each responder is genuinely honest about their convictions on the passage.
There's one thing I'm a little confused about, though (probably a lot more than one, but for this post anyway - LOL).
Odeliya says:
quote:
Fruit, if we look at it closely, is always present in a true believer, all on this thread already agreed on that. Acc to Gal.5 faith and love and humbleness,all that etc.are fruit which is and have to be present to a degree once a person truly believes. He is humbled, he loves God and has faith , he truly repents - all that is truly fruit of HS.
But as for evident fruit to others- that can be missing or virtually invisible. That is what basically under debate - how much visible fruit means you are a believer?
and then FreeGrace says:
quote:
It is interesting to note that the end of v.14 says "and bring no fruit to maturity", which supports my view. You have to have a plant before you have fruit, but the reformed view is that there will be fruit in each and every believer. Since the Bible is clear that we are to grow up in our faith, their view seems rather contrary to Scripture .
Am I misunderstanding something or do you two have 2 different views of whether fruit is always present in a believer? I do understand that we're not here talking about fruit that is observable to the human eye, but the fruit that follows salvation.
I think it speaks of that fruit that is observable, since this is a parable, which is a human story as a base. Also, the phrase at the end of v.14, "bring no fruit to maturity" doesn't mean "no fruit", but rather, the fruit didn't reach maturity.
Have you ever grown some kind of plant that produced edible fruit? If you pick the first season's "crop", it usually is very bitter, and not like the fruit of a fully mature plant/tree/etc. When I was young, my Dad planted a grape vine. When the grapes first appeared, they looked normal and delicious. I picked some, but they were the most bitter grapes! 
My grandfather told us we shouldn't have picked that first year's crop, which would have allowed the vine to mature and produce edible fruit the next year.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 12:29:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
excellent point, br. FG!
humans are humans. Versions of parables aren’t written by lawyers as a contract, but by regular people,so we cant try to dissect every word but should look at it as a whole.
Especially that former tax collector guy, apostle Matthew’s account – that is a typical IRS employee, allright. His sower story is so generic and brief, you got to use your own imagination to get the full picture.
Now wait just a fruit pickin minute Del, who is that dissects every word rather than looking at the parable as a whole? FG is the very one guilty of just that. The parable taken as a whole and in context says very plainly that things don't look good for those who are fruitless.
To quote a phrase, "now wait just a fruit pickin minute", td. I agree that "things don't look good for those who are fruitless", but that doesn't mean they aren't saved.
quote:
To say otherwise is reading something into the parable that was never intended to be there.
There, I've cleared up that I've not said otherwise. So, I'm NOT reading something into the parable that was never intended to be there.
What you continue to reject is that Jesus could have really meant what He very plainly said about equating believing with being saved, and saying the second soil believed. It takes a heap of bias and presupposition to deny that the second soil was saved.
It is because the second soil only believed for a while and didn't produce fruit that you cannot accept that they were saved. But that comes from your bias and presupposition, not Scripture. In fact, Scripture contradicts your bias and presupposition.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 12:35:55 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
The bible says greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.
There isn't anyone on this thread who would ague otherwise, td.
quote:
Is He great enough to save us from the penalty of sin but not great enough to actuall change us so that we produce fruit in our lives?
No, He actually changed us (through regeneration of our human spirits) so we could produce fruit.
Why do you think that Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit after He left earth? It was exactly for that purpose, that we could produce fruit.
Before Jesus left, and in the immediate days after He left, what were His disciples doing? Basically everything but the right thing. They seriously needed help, which is exactly what Jesus gave them, the Helper, per John 14:16, 26, 16:7 (NASB).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 12:50:03 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1452
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
What?
Gen 5:24 > And Enoch walked with God : and he was not ; for God took him .
2 Kings 2:11 > And it came to pass , as they still went on , and talked , that , behold , there appeared a chariot of fire , and horses of fire , and parted them both asunder , and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven .
Both Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven without dying ; why would you think they were the only two there ? Where could paradise or Abraham's bosom possibly be located other than heaven ?
quote:
Why then do you have so much trouble interpreting the clear
understanding that no one was or ever will be saved by obedience to the law.
quote:
Why would you even think I don't believe this?
Because you have already stated that you believe OT saints were saved by obedience to the law .
quote:
What was the Law for?
The law was to show what sin was (is) , to reveal sin , to reveal God's standard ; its purpose was (is) to point us to Christ . The law showed man his short comings in fulfilling righteousness .
quote:
Are any modern day Jews saved outside of faith in Christ?
No
quote:
RWE: Please show where Heb 11 says anyone was saved by faith in Christ.
The point was that they were all saved by grace through faith and not by obedience to the law .
quote:
You asking me to leave the forum?
No , just trying to show how hard it is to carry on a theological debate when someone does not understand the elementary doctrines .
quote:
I think John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 apply to OT saints, too.
Then research the OT and find out how the OT sacrifices foreshadowed Christ and how OT saints salvation was accomplished .
quote:
I don't know of anytime any OT person received the gospel.
When refering to the Israelites whom Moses led out of Egypt , Hebrews 4:2 satates > For unto us was the gospel preached , as well as to them : but the word preached did not profit them , not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . And Gal 2:8 > And the scripture , forseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith , preached before the gospel unto Abraham , saying , In thee shall all nations be blessed .
The fact is that salvation in both Old and New Testaments was (is) accomplished the exact same way .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 2:29:26 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1462
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
What?
Gen 5:24 > And Enoch walked with God : and he was not ; for God took him .
2 Kings 2:11 > And it came to pass , as they still went on , and talked , that , behold , there appeared a chariot of fire , and horses of fire , and parted them both asunder , and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven .
Both Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven without dying ; why would you think they were the only two there ? Where could paradise or Abraham's bosom possibly be located other than heaven ?
Then what does John 3:13 mean? There was a person in
heaven even though he said there wasn't?
I suggest they went to a holding place like paradise for the thief.
I think they received the gospel just like everyone else. I
think 1 Pet 3:18 and Eph 4:9 implies Christ descended into
sheol or to the holding place of those who were elect and
they received the gospel and there salvation was complete.
THEN they went to heaven.
That being said, if everything I said is wrong, it does not
affect how a person is saved today, nor does it bear on
my identity as a born again evangelical Christian who
believes true faith perseveres and an atheist can't be saved.
quote:
No , just trying to show how hard it is to carry
on a theological debate when someone does not
understand the elementary doctrines .
Like sanctification?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 3:38:26 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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hey, rwe friend,
you should maybe consider jumping into thread K-man mentioned”are you saved but not baptised?”in salv folder, for some debates on this topic as well, boys/girls are cooking out there, and specifically talking among other things, how salvation of OT people was done…
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it, what is under debate is rather – can an already saved person commit a sin of unbelief? Are there some sins that no believer can possibly ever commit? Is atheism or worshipping other gods among them? Are there sins believer commits that the blood of Jesus is powerless to cover?
I am not an expert, but agree with Ch. Stanley,maybe it is possible, even I haven’t heard of many cases like that. If you can prove to me Scripturally that there are certain sins committing which proves that a saved person is not really saved, I would be very grateful, for I cant find any verses that say that.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 3:47:43 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Now wait just a fruit pickin minute Del, who is that dissects every word rather than looking at the parable as a whole? FG is the very one guilty of just that. The parable taken as a whole and in context says very plainly that things don't look good for those who are fruitless. To say otherwise is reading something into the parable that was never intended to be there.
thought I won’t drag myself into soils again ..:) but here is am. Yes, sir, reporting for duty.
This is what i think: parable is meant to be seen as warning about dangers of this World (the field) ,how they can prevent one from giving proper attention to the Word and Kingdom (seed) and not receiving it with gladness, or in case of receiving and becoming saved -from growing good fruit. The field is corrupt and fallen, it’s not good for growing plants (becoming Christians), we have to be aware of it’s thorns and stones.
I wouldn't 've particularly chosen to use it in our LS/FG debate, which is about the salvation status of certain people basically, for the parable is about importance of fruit/dangers of the world, not salvation per say. But to me it still supports general principle of being saved by having seed(Word) sprout which, as time goes by, produces fruit of HS in a believer.
:)
i am personally giving it another few days and will agree to disagree with everybody and move on to more interesting C/A topics, like universal atonement i want to annoy you and the bunch about.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 4:54:02 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think that all the parables still say the same thing, even though neither matt or Mark's account use the word "believe" for the first or second soil. What is the same is what stunts the growth of the plants in the second and third soils.
if i understand your postion correctly you understand that Jesus was contrasting the first soil against the other 3. the other 3 all being saved. hopefully i have that correct by now 
in matthew we find this description of the second soil
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away
the second soil has no firm root in himself, it is only temporary, and he, speaking of the person not the root falls away. it vanishes when he afflicted because of the word. there is no indication in the parable that the second soil ever believes again. he is left in this condition
earlier in matthew 10 Jesus said this
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
i see a relationship between the second soil and this passage. the second fell away immediately when persecuion or affliction because of the word comes. there is no indication that he stood for even one second when the persecution came.
in matthew 10 those who deny Jesus before men are denied before the Father. i am having a little difficulty seeing how those who deny Jesus ( which i see the second soil doing) and are denied by Jesus to the Father entering heaven. this denying by Jesus seems to me to be different then a loss of rewards.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 7:41:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think that all the parables still say the same thing, even though neither matt or Mark's account use the word "believe" for the first or second soil. What is the same is what stunts the growth of the plants in the second and third soils.
if i understand your postion correctly you understand that Jesus was contrasting the first soil against the other 3. the other 3 all being saved. hopefully i have that correct by now
I don't necessarily think Jesus was contrasting unbelievers with believers. I think He was contrasting different types of believers.
quote:
in matthew we find this description of the second soil
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away
This passage is quite similar to the Luke 8 version. Their faith was temporary, and when troubles arise, they fall away (lose faith).
quote:
the second soil has no firm root in himself, it is only temporary, and he, speaking of the person not the root falls away. it vanishes when he afflicted because of the word. there is no indication in the parable that the second soil ever believes again. he is left in this condition
Yes, no further indication of whether his faith is restored.
quote:
earlier in matthew 10 Jesus said this
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
i see a relationship between the second soil and this passage. the second fell away immediately when persecuion or affliction because of the word comes. there is no indication that he stood for even one second when the persecution came.
I don't see any direct relationship. In the earlier Matt passage (10:32) I believe that it is speaking of loss of rewards, not any statement of loss of salvation. I think we must be very careful which passages we put together, or pit against each other.
quote:
in matthew 10 those who deny Jesus before men are denied before the Father. i am having a little difficulty seeing how those who deny Jesus ( which i see the second soil doing) and are denied by Jesus to the Father entering heaven. this denying by Jesus seems to me to be different then a loss of rewards.
With all the many promises of eternal security plus the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, I don't see how it can be anything but loss of rewards, to maintain Scriptural integrity and harmony.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:05:56 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ???
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
So you say the majority of the wise and mighty and noble have no chance for salvation ? What a pitiful gospel that is .
I am not saying anything...what did you think I said ?
Feeling contentious about Paul's words...???
God has chosen...God has chosen...God has chosen...
to confound...to confound...
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:34:20 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ???
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
So you say the majority of the wise and mighty and noble have no chance for salvation ? What a pitiful gospel that is .
I am not saying anything...what did you think I said ?
Feeling contentious about Paul's words...???
God has chosen...God has chosen...God has chosen...
Absolutely correct, MM. God has chosen to save believers.
quote:
Again, show me the "ALL" !!!
I would be happy to.
Rom 3:23 "for ALL have sinned
v.24 "AND ARE JUSTIFIED FREELY" (ESV).......how, you might ask, can the human race be justified freely?
v.25 "through faith in His blood".
1 John 2:2 "And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD". Not "all", but close enough.
Acts 17:30 ""He commands ALL people everywhere to repent"
2 Cor 5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for ALL"
Heb 2:9 "He might taste death for EVERYONE. That's "all" in the Greek.
Titus 2:11 "the grace of God that brings salvation to ALL men"
1 Tim 2:3 "God wants ALL men to be saved"
1 Tim 2:6 "a ransom for ALL men"
1 Tim 4:10 "the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men"
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 9:54:48 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Your belief, not mine...Precisely, you must tell the unsaved in hell that Jesus died for them. Then explain their fate.
Why do you think anyone will try "evangelism" on the unsaved in hell? What would be the point? I am speaking of the here and now. That Christ died for everyone is good news. Or do you disagree that His dying for everyone is good news.
Those are your words...where are they in The Bible ?
Is the Good News REALLY for everyone ? Who said ?
Jesus quoted this passage in Isaiah which describes the type of
people who will preached to. Why be specific if it's generically ALL ?
Isaiah 61:1-3 (New King James Version)
The Good News of Salvation
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
Jesus died for everyone, yet we have folk in hell ?
Tell them Jesus died for them. Would you ?
I am not talking about trying to save the condemned.
I am speaking hypothetically about a proclamation in hell.
Tell them Christ died for all men, including them.
Tell them why God's plan failed...
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The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 10:05:06 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Believing that you believe is NOT belief...
That's about as clear as mud.....
You mean I can believe that I don't believe and its still belief ?
No, I re-posted my quote for your edification.
Someone might convince themselves they believe when they actually don't.
Our thoughts can be deceptive. Carnal belief is not really belief at all.
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The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 10:11:09 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Manna
quote:
Where is the all in "not many" ?
bee
quote:
Here's the all : Even the righteousness of God which is by faith Of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no difference : for all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God ; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus : Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God ; to declare , I say , at this time his righteousness : that he might be just , and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus .
That doesn't answer Manna's question. You are saying that the all in "not many" is all those by their own free will believe. Is that correct?
If the text that Manna quoted had said "not many answered" then you might have a point but it says "not many called".
Nice example of effectual calling...
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