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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 11:26:28 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God chooses only believers, which is "some out of all".
So, God looks into the future, and sees who will believe- then chooses them ? That cannot be what you are suggesting ?
Yes, He chooses only believers for salvation. That is quite clear from John 6:40, as well as 2 Thess 2:13.
So what does God choose UN-believers for ?
Are you serious? Your comment suggests you don't believe John 6:40. If you think John 6:40 says something other than that He gives eternal life to believers, please share. Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 11:30:03 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is the Good News REALLY for everyone ?
Don't you know the meaning of euangelia? It means "good news". That's Biblical. Review Titus 2:11. It is for everyone.
I know what it means, BUT.......
The question is...Is the Good News for everyone ?
MM, you are clearly demonstrating that you aren't paying attention. What does my statement after "Titus 2:11" say?
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It can't be Good News for everyone since the outcome is not "GOOD" for some people !
It most certainly is good news. The fact that many reject that good news doesn't change the goodness of the news. It only condemns them, per John 3:17,18,36.
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It's ONLY "Good News" if everyone gets saved-
Are you really suggesting that the gospel is only good news since not everyone gets saved? Wow, how weird. Why do you think that way?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 12:30:17 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1734
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it,
Tell FG, then.
rw, haven't you been following very closely? She isn't speaking of an atheist who formerly believed here. Of course not all atheists go to heaven, only the ones who formerly believed in Christ will. That bothers you a great deal, though, doesn't it?
I understand that.
One's who "formerly believed" are not saved according to
my and many others interpretation of Scripture.
Sanctification is only for believers and it is a definite
according to Rom 8:29 and Phil 1:6.
I know, I know, its all "optional".
He knows his sheep and his sheep know him.
Not "might" know him, or "could" know him,
much less "once knew him".
True faith perseveres is a clear teaching of Scripture.
quote:
Including the sin of failing to continue to believe?
Its not a sin, its a sign he was never saved to begin with.
My presupposition is that salvation is a position and a process.
quote:
RWE: What does "we are no longer slaves to sin" mean?
FG: It means we don't have to obey it.
A sad and man-centered view of God's work in the believer.
It means we are set free from the bondages of sin.
We are not free to sin like the unbelievers, either Rom 6:1.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 12:31:30 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1734
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quote:
RWE: Man-centered salvation with man in total control of his
sanctification is not biblically true, IMO.
Since no one on this thread believes that, nor has suggested that, why do you bother bringing it up? It indicates you do not understand the views of others.
You deny it because you say its optional, so who is in control?
If its not man, then God must select some believers for
sanctification and others not?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 12:43:52 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 315
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Then, you deny John 6:40, which tells us that God gives eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son? It doesn't tell us that God gives faith to some in order to believe in His Son.
You know I don't reject faith Free. There isn't a Reformer that is posting on here that does. The age old debate is where that faith comes from.'
From the free will of fallen man or from the free grace of a merciful God.
No man can believe on Christ unless it is granted to him.
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The key is missing from your statement. We have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. That means He has chosen those who have believed in Him. Your philosophy has it all backwards.
You are the one who has it backwards. You said that God chose believers. I pointed out that God has concluded all in unbelief. That kills your philosophy dead. There is nothing to choose from. There is none righteous, there is none that understand. Period. It depends not him that willith or him that runs but on God who has mercy.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 12:53:14 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 315
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quote:
Its man's rejection, not God's selection.
1Jn 2:2.
But apart from God's selection we would do nothing but reject.
Except the Lord had chosen a remnant wouldn't we become altogether like Sodom?
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 1:23:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Of course atheists are not going to heaven. We are not disputing it,
Tell FG, then.
rw, haven't you been following very closely? She isn't speaking of an atheist who formerly believed here. Of course not all atheists go to heaven, only the ones who formerly believed in Christ will. That bothers you a great deal, though, doesn't it?
I understand that.
One's who "formerly believed" are not saved according to
my and many others interpretation of Scripture.
OK, who should I believe: you and the many others' interpretation, or the clear words of Jesus?
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Sanctification is only for believers and it is a definite
according to Rom 8:29 and Phil 1:6.
Since you've never responded to my link about the 3 tenses of salvation (sanctification), I cannot respond to your comments. Only when you acknowledge exactly which "tense" of sancfication you are speaking about can I properly respond.
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I know, I know, its all "optional".
No. Faith is not "optional" for salvation. It is required.
No. The filling of the Holy Spirit is not "optional" for living the Spirit-filled life.
Let me ask you: do you think the filling of the Holy Spirit is "required" for salvation? If yes, it's then not optional. If not, then it is optional.
Only when we (both of us) clarify what we mean can we further this discussion.
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True faith perseveres is a clear teaching of Scripture.
The trtuth of Scripture is that some believers will not continue in the faith and will not produce fruit. Jesus very plainly said that.
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Including the sin of failing to continue to believe?
Its not a sin, its a sign he was never saved to begin with.
Without any clear Scripture to support you means that is only your opinion. My position is supported by the clear and plain words of Jesus.
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My presupposition is that salvation is a position and a process.
It is not right to come to Scripture with any presuppositions. That is why you are having such a hard time with all of this. Your presuppositions are getting in the way of understanding what Scripture plainly says.
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We are not free to sin like the unbelievers, either Rom 6:1.
If you are not "free to sin", then please tell me why you continue to sin. The only other alternative is that you are being forced to. Is that correct?
You either sin freely, or you are forced to sin. Which is it for you? I'm a believer and when I sin, it is because I am free to sin, and I choose to sin.
Same for you, btw.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 1:25:39 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
RWE: Man-centered salvation with man in total control of his
sanctification is not biblically true, IMO.
Since no one on this thread believes that, nor has suggested that, why do you bother bringing it up? It indicates you do not understand the views of others.
You deny it because you say its optional, so who is in control?
Please be specific and define what you mean when you charge me with saying "it's optional" because I have no idea what you are referring to. Thanks.
quote:
If its not man, then God must select some believers for
sanctification and others not?
As I just posted, until you finally respond to my link about the 3 tenses of sanctification, there is no use or point in discussing this with you.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 1:41:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Then, you deny John 6:40, which tells us that God gives eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son? It doesn't tell us that God gives faith to some in order to believe in His Son.
You know I don't reject faith Free. There isn't a Reformer that is posting on here that does. The age old debate is where that faith comes from.' From the free will of fallen man or from the free grace of a merciful God.
The answer is "yes". Man, though fallen and sinful, was graced by God with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel and believe.
quote:
No man can believe on Christ unless it is granted to him.
There is NO verse that says that. You are adding to Scripture by your comment here. It isn't Biblical. Here is what Phil 1:29 actually says: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,". There isn't anything that says that "no man can believe..." in that verse, or any other, for that matter.
The Greek word for "grant" is charizomai, and universally means "to show oneself gracious, kind, benevolent". God has certainly demonstrated His grace to all of mankind since all are free to believe.
There is no verse that says that God either doesn't want all to believe or that He keeps any from believing.
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You are the one who has it backwards. You said that God chose believers. I pointed out that God has concluded all in unbelief.
Yes, He did. And for what purpose? Here is what the whole verse says in Rom 11:32, "For God has shut up all (everyone) in disobedience that He might show mercy to all (everyone)." The word in your translation for "unbelief" is apeitheia, which means disobedience.
The verse tells us that the whole world is disobedient and "he might show mercy to all of them".
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That kills your philosophy dead.
I don't have a philosophy. I use the Bible. It was one of your own, Turretinfan, who used to post here who stated in post #25 that Calvinism is a philosophy. So, you are the one with the "philosophy" because I'm no Calvinist.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 3:14:38 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1903
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
RWE: What does "we are no longer slaves to sin" mean?
FG: It means we don't have to obey it.
RWE: A sad and man-centered view of God's work in the believer.
It means we are set free from the bondages of sin.
We are not free to sin like the unbelievers, either Rom 6:1.
Rwe, brother, your are such a stubborn pain in the neck on occasion! Just like my father! if you were to adopt me I wouldn’t feel any difference. 
FG doesn’t teach that we are free to sin. Salvation is positional (it' what we are, God’s kids) and our behavior is relational ( our relationship with God)
You don’t have to treat your children nicely for them to remain in their positional status as your sons. What you do will affectthe level and quality of your relationship with them, but cant change the fact they are you boys,( I think you said you have boys, not girls?)
To say that we cant sin our way out of God’s hand and out of being his kids is not the same thing as promote “All you can sin- for all is paid for!” FG affirms the former not the latter.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 3:23:35 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1903
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Kelman, I appreciate your last 2 posts greatly, I go away for the weekend will answer when I come back -let me give it some thought how to phrase it..
Looks to me as if we closer now in views, just have some minor disagreements, caused by some misunderstandings ,I hope we can resolve it.
( even that is what granma thought the situation looked like when she was getting married to gr.papa – and they kept arguing for another 49 years after that , May God rest their souls!)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:07:43 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
The answer is "yes". Man, though fallen and sinful, was graced by God with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel and believe.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Cor. 4:4
quote:
quote:
No man can believe on Christ unless it is granted to him.
There is NO verse that says that. You are adding to Scripture by your comment here. It isn't Biblical. Here is what Phil 1:29 actually says: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,". There isn't anything that says that "no man can believe..." in that verse, or any other, for that matter.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44
quote:
There is no verse that says that God either doesn't want all to believe or that He keeps any from believing.
He said, "Go and tell this people:
" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed." - Isaiah 6:9-10
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:21:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
The answer is "yes". Man, though fallen and sinful, was graced by God with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel and believe.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Cor. 4:4
I was expecting a post such as this one. This verse doesn't say that every one has been blinded. Some reject the gospel which they clearly understand. So not all are blinded. How do you understand Rom 3:23-25, where Paul notes how people are justified freely, that being through faith in His blood. Please note at the beginning of v.23 who all Paul includes in who can be justified: everyone in the world. So that indicates that everyone is able to believe.
quote:
quote:
quote:
No man can believe on Christ unless it is granted to him.
There is NO verse that says that. You are adding to Scripture by your comment here. It isn't Biblical. Here is what Phil 1:29 actually says: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,". There isn't anything that says that "no man can believe..." in that verse, or any other, for that matter.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44
To continue in the context, v.45 says "It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Seems clear to me that only the ones who heard and learned from the Father come to Jesus. This passage does not support reformed theology, especially since Rom 3:23-25 clearly contradicts it.
quote:
quote:
There is no verse that says that God either doesn't want all to believe or that He keeps any from believing.
He said, "Go and tell this people:
" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed." - Isaiah 6:9-10
I expected this one as well. This passage quotes a Hebrew idiom, which speaks of the fact that the people weren't listening or looking. That's why they didn't see or hear. This verse doesn't support the theory that God closed their eyes or ears.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:23:04 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
I don't have a philosophy. I use the Bible. It was one of your own, Turretinfan, who used to post here who stated in post #25 that Calvinism is a philosophy. So, you are the one with the "philosophy" because I'm no Calvinist.
So because someone called Calvinism a philosophy you therefore believe that gives you license to brand all who call themselves Calvinists as unbiblical and such? Why don't you just tell him he's condemned to the depths of hell? And wouldn't that mean that all Baptists have a philosophy too? I guess they'll "get there's" in the end too. Talk about the fallacy of guilt-by-association. Anyway, I prefer the Doctrines of Grace to describe "Calvinism" since I reject several things that Calvin believed in. But with that said, I do use the Bible too.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 8:56:19 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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Limited time Free, so I'll only tackle the first response.
quote:
I was expecting a post such as this one. This verse doesn't say that every one has been blinded.
Correct, it says unbelievers. As in what we both were before God shined light into the darkness of our hearts. We were once blind, but now we see.
quote:
Some reject the gospel which they clearly understand. So not all are blinded.
Correct, again. But you've shifted the argument with a little slight-of-hand there, as it is believers that you are referring to not unbelievers. That's not what the verse is addressing. It is addressing unbelievers of which it says that they are blinded "by the god of this world" and are therefore unable to see - that is - unable to make any intelligent choice for God on account of their unbelief and the power that helps keeps them in that unbelief.
quote:
How do you understand Rom 3:23-25, where Paul notes how people are justified freely, that being through faith in His blood. Please note at the beginning of v.23 who all Paul includes in who can be justified: everyone in the world. So that indicates that everyone is able to believe.
Here's the passage:
23"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished."
So you embrace universalism as your assertion would mean that since all is all without exception it would also mean that all "are justified freely...." ? You've said it like this...
If one is justified one is saved, and since all sin, all are justified and therefore all are saved.
Now if you read the full context....
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— Romans 3:21-25 (emphasis mine)
...you see it is the "all who believe" that is the first all in the passage. And you'll also note that I bolded in red the "There is no difference..." There is no difference between whom? If we have all without exception why would there be a need to concern ourselves about a difference, why should we worry about a distinction to be made? Well, the proceeding verse tells us that there is no difference between the "all who believe." And even more, notice the break and the "for" in the "There is no difference, for all have sinned..."
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, yes, absolutely, no doubt. But in the context of who Paul is addressing it is the "all who believe." So Paul is saying that there is no difference between the all who believe because all of these have sinned fallen short of the glory of God. His distinction is there, not the whole world without exception.
More later....
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/10/2008 12:33:04 AM >
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 9:50:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I don't have a philosophy. I use the Bible. It was one of your own, Turretinfan, who used to post here who stated in post #25 that Calvinism is a philosophy. So, you are the one with the "philosophy" because I'm no Calvinist.
So because someone called Calvinism a philosophy you therefore believe that gives you license to brand all who call themselves Calvinists as unbiblical and such?
You apparently have no clue as to who Turretinfan was. I am only pointing out that he himself called Calvinism a philosophy.
quote:
Why don't you just tell him he's condemned to the depths of hell?
Because that would be about the stupidest thing to do. Why do you even ask such a silly question as that?
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And wouldn't that mean that all Baptists have a philosophy too?
I've never interviewed any of them. I was one once, but I don't recall anyone talking about philosophy.
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I guess they'll "get there's" in the end too. Talk about the fallacy of guilt-by-association.
Whatever are you talking about here?
quote:
Anyway, I prefer the Doctrines of Grace to describe "Calvinism" since I reject several things that Calvin believed in. But with that said, I do use the Bible too.
I'm glad that you do. Since you do, what do you think of what Paul said in Rom 3:23-25 where he notes how people are "justified freely" (v.24), which is "through faith in His blood" (v.25). In v.23 he includes who can be justified, which happens to be the human race. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 10:09:17 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2008
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The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 12:10:20 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
To continue in the context, v.45 says "It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Seems clear to me that only the ones who heard and learned from the Father come to Jesus. This passage does not support reformed theology, especially since Rom 3:23-25 clearly contradicts it.
Actually, to continue in the context you would have to admit that only those the Father draws are those who "shall be taught of God." So yes, everyone who has "heard and learned from the Father..." comes to Christ but only those whom God draws are those who hear and learn.
quote:
I expected this one as well. This passage quotes a Hebrew idiom, which speaks of the fact that the people weren't listening or looking. That's why they didn't see or hear. This verse doesn't support the theory that God closed their eyes or ears .
That's not what a plain reading of the text suggests. It suggests that they they do not see or hear because God has permitted them, according to his will, to continue in their natural state of unbelief.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/10/2008 12:29:06 AM >
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 12:22:15 AM
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