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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 8:20:50 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
Status: offline
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quote:
ODELIYA: Rwe, come on.... you are confusing.
My headaches get worse when I go down on the seesaw......Yipppeeee!!!!! 
Found the issue is God, not us.
God is the author, not us.
God is the perfector, not us.
Jesus becomes Lord of our lives, not us.
I am no longer in control, He is. Whether I like it or not!
Listen, I am on the Bylaws review committee at my church.
Statement says, "Our membership shall consist of those
who give evidence of being born again believers in Jesus Christ."
Ode - I don't think the people even know what they are saying here.
What is "evidence"? Dangerous territory for many.
I suggested church attendance at least one a year...........
I submit Bible illiteracy and doctrinal ignorance is killing us!
We have more people who base their salvation on a decision,
rather than changed life resulting from what God does.
Its killing us!
No assumption God's work results in growth and discipleship leads to.....
.....no discipleship!! Or worse, the "saved atheist".
And a Christianity that is 3,000 miles wide and 1/2 inch deep
as Paul Washer says.
Its killing us!
Only WHAT you believe?
Then join the Boy Scouts, Kiwanis Club,
Rotary Club.............
.......... or your local Jesus Club.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 8:47:58 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1410
Joined: 3/11/2007
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FG,
quote:
quote:
God does not call those outside of the group of people whom He foreknew; he only calls those whom He foreknew.
What do you do with Matt 22:14? Many are called, but few are chosen. iow, many are invited to believe, but only a few are chosen for salvation cf. 2 Thess 2:13.
I do with it just what it says. Many are invited to be saved, but only those who have been chosen (or "called" as Paul uses the term in Rom 8) are saved.
Romans 8:29-30 is as true as Matt 22:14. Paul uses the word "called" in the same way the Lord Jesus Christ uses the word "chosen".
quote:
quote:
All those whom God called He justified and glorified. So, according to Paul in Romans 8, if a person has been called he is also justified.
Since "all those" refers only to believers, who were invited and responded, Paul calls them the "called".
No, Paul did not call them "the called" (noun).
Paul said that God "called" them (verb).
Big difference. God, in a point in time, calls all those whom He foreknew. This call is only for those whom He foreknew; it is not the general call found in Matt 22:14, for that call can be rejected (few are chosen). Here in Romans 8 the call is never rejected, for all whom God calls, He also justifies.
quote:
I'm not seeing your point. Many are called few are chosen. OK. The ones who respond to the gospel in faith have been called, right? So that's how Paul used it in Rom 8. All believers have been called. Referring to them as "the called" is natural since they were called.
It is only you who is referring to them as "the called" (noun). Paul referred to them as those who have been "called" (verb) - an act of God that ensures justification and glorification.
Paul did not use the term "called" in the same way that the Lord Jesus used the word "called". Paul used the word "called" in the same way the Lord Jesus used the word "chosen".
quote:
You have given your opinion of this perceived "different" kind of call between Matt 22:14 and Rom 8, but where is your support for that, other than just opinion?
I have given you what the apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - all those whom God foreknew and predestined, He also called; everyone one of them and none other. All whom God has called, He also justified - all of them and none other. No one rejects this call.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 11:08:14 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
Status: offline
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quote:
No one rejects this call.
Which time?
Sorry for butting in, but if this were true,
how come most of the elect do not become
saved the first time they hear the gospel?
What would be God's purpose in postponing
it for the soil is ready!!
Could it possibly be that man must respond?
[GASP]
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 11:42:02 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
If you will provide me with a quote ( in context)from any FG writer that promotes
worldly, carnal Christianity i will be willing to debate it,but not until then....
* Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
* One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is,
one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition
some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift
while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the
heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
* True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works
(or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence
of the new birth.
*True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact,
a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually
unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist;
however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time,
he is still considered to be saved. For instance, Joseph Dillow, in The Reign
of the Sevant Kings, says, "It is possible for a truly born-again person to
fall away from the faith and cease believing." (p.199).
True Christians may fall away completely from the faith and still be saved.
God in no way grants them perseverance, or sustains them in their faith.
*At the Bema seat, Christ will divide believers into two distinct and
separate groups: the faithful, "overcoming" Christians will be allowed to
reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; they are the "heirs" of the kingdom.
Unfaithful, carnal believers, however, will get into the kingdom, but will not
be allowed to reign with Christ. They enter the kingdom but do not inherit it.
In fact, they will be barred from the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, and will
be cast outside of the wedding banquet, where they will weep and gnash
their teeth (just as unbelievers will do in hell). The millennium will therefore
be a time of sorrow and weeping for these children of God.
Disputation of the teachings of Zane Hodges.
rw, shame on you.
What don't you disagree with, Free?
You have said repentance = believing.
You have said an atheist can be saved.
You have said fruit is not a given.
What is 'twisted'?
I would appreciate if you would go through point by point.
BTW, I have also read from Grace Evangelical Society.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 12:09:28 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
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FREEGRACE
from http://www.faithalone.org
What must I [do] BELIEVE to be saved?
A blatant mischaracterization of the gospel message.
(Read Acts 2:38 - did they not ask this question?)
I suppose everything that happened in the early church
was just window dressing? Or was is a clear picture of the
RESULTS of people being saved by God?
quote:
Jesus Christ said, "He who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47). He also said, "He who lives and believes in Me will never die." Eternal life is eternal. Wonderful.
quote:
Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29). He has removed the sin barrier which separated us from God. However, we still lack spiritual life, eternal life. To get that life, we must simply believe in Jesus for it. There are no strings attached. Our eternal salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2:9). Marvelous.
quote:
Simply believe in Jesus and He guarantees you will never die spiritually. You will go to heaven when you die, and spend eternity in God's kingdom. It really is that simple. That's why it's called Good News. Big problems here for me as a born again.
1) No mention at all of born again requirement.
2) Blatantly man-centered.
Sorry, but I think its bare-faced gospel reductionism and a
recipe for the facade we call Christianity today.
There is a narrow gate and a narrow road, friend.
My Baptist denomination is already guilty of leaving
the "professors" at the gate.
The whole gospel is we are saved, we are being saved,
and we will be saved.
Its not "adding to the gospel" anymore than Jesus'
scourging is adding to the Passion.
The evidence we have believed is not based on what we think
we have believed, but on God's transformation of the wicked,
vile creature.
Its all wrapped up nice an neat and easy to believe.
All I ask is take a look at what we call Christianity today
and work backwards to the doctrine that produces it.
Where will it take you? Straight back to "I believe"
instead of "God saved me and look what happened."
No man can encounter God and not be permanently changed,
and I beleive this with all my HEART.................... 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 1:05:13 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 393
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
"Before the foundation of the world" is when it happenend.
From His foreknowledge or omniscience that shouldn't be difficult to accept.
"Foreknew" in Romans 8:29 doesn't mean that God knew a certain fact. It is verb every bit as active as "predestine", "call", "justify", and "glorify". English doesn't differentiate, but Spanish (and I suspect the other Romance languages) differentiates between an impersonal knowing of facts (saber) and a personal knowledge of someone (conocer). The Greek word is proginosko, which means active, personal, intimate, knowledge. It is not God's omniscient passive knowledge of whether someone will have faith. There are several usages in the OT of "love" in this sense as well.
quote:
quote:
You cannot get "faith as the selection criteria" from this passage.
I'm not trying to. But there are many other passages where faith is the only criteria for eternal life, salvation, justification, and forgiveness.
And I will look into these. Scripture must win out, not my preconceived notions. (You might think I'm a Calvinist, since I'm talking like one, but the truth is that the jury is still out.)
quote:
quote:
And from John 6, we find that God's choosing us comes before our faith and is a direct cause of our faith.
Please provide the verse you are thinking of.
John 6:37-40,44: "37.All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38.For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39.And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
40.For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
44."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Please observer that v. 40 comes after v. 37. And "come to me", "looks on the Son and believes in him", are synonyms.
Now, v. 37 is the sufficient clause, and v. 44 is the necessary clause. I.e., it is necessary and sufficient that God draw someone for him to come to Christ. Sounds like Irresistable Grace to me. (And as an added bonus, you get Perseverance of the Saints in the second half of v. 44.)
quote:
quote:
Again, "In him" is not part of the criteria. It's the destination of the choice.
Only if the verse said "chose us to be in Him", would it indicate destination, but it doesn't. Since it doesn't say that we are "chosen to be in Him" as you want it to say, it should be clear that it is the criteria for our being chosen.
I don't see the difference between "in Him" and "to be in Him". Sounds like a bit of squirming. Again, the main part of the sentence is "He chose us". "Us" is the direct object. "Us", as opposed to someone else. Very personal.
quote:
2 Thess 2:13 is quite clear: we were chosen for salvation...through faith in the truth.
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." The way I read this, "chose you" is first. The result is the whole salvation process -- through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 2:13:25 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1535
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
"Foreknew" in Romans 8:29 doesn't mean that God knew a certain fact. It is verb every bit as active as "predestine", "call", "justify", and "glorify". English doesn't differentiate, but Spanish (and I suspect the other Romance languages) differentiates between an impersonal knowing of facts (saber) and a personal knowledge of someone (conocer). The Greek word is proginosko, which means active, personal, intimate, knowledge. It is not God's omniscient passive knowledge of whether someone will have faith. There are several usages in the OT of "love" in this sense as well.
"Foreknow" is the word used in Romans 8:29 ; according to Strong's (#4267) the word means > to know beforehand i.e. foresee . I do not claim to know the part of speech to which it belongs ; it is pretty clear from the definition however that it is to foreknow or foresee certain facts beforehand . I don't know what Spanish has to with interpreting Greek .
quote:
John 6:37-40,44: "37.All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38.For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39.And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
40.For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
44."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Please observer that v. 40 comes after v. 37. And "come to me", "looks on the Son and believes in him", are synonyms.
Now, v. 37 is the sufficient clause, and v. 44 is the necessary clause. I.e., it is necessary and sufficient that God draw someone for him to come to Christ. Sounds like Irresistable Grace to me. (And as an added bonus, you get Perseverance of the Saints in the second half of v. 44.)
All of John chapter 5 is a build up to help one interpret those verses , especially John 5:33-47 : then you have to do something with John 12:32 and Romans 5:18 .
quote:
I don't see the difference between "in Him" and "to be in Him". Sounds like a bit of squirming. Again, the main part of the sentence is "He chose us". "Us" is the direct object. "Us", as opposed to someone else. Very personal.
There is a major difference between the two . Chose us "in Him" is vastly different from chose us "to be in Him" . Only those "in Him" are chosen , and they are not chosen "to be in Him" , that much is obvious .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 2:33:52 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
ODELIYA:
"FG bashing" quotations aside, I ask you:
True or false: FG says we are saved simply on WHAT we believe, rather
than on WHO we believe. (Lets not even go to WHY we believe......)
rw, that is blatantly false! Please pay attention. The ONLY faith that saves is faith in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you get that? Where in the world did this question come from? Surely not any FG website.
quote:
T or F: FG says believing is merely mental assent. Beleiving in our heart
is the same as the mind.
Since the Bible quates the two, there is NO PROBLEM with it.
quote:
T or F: FG says when we believe we also repent.
In order to believe that Christ died for you and saves you on that basis, and there is no other way into heaven, such believing absolutely requires a change of mind, which is what repenting is.
quote:
Nothing wrong with this?
No, there isn't.
quote:
I ask you:
Q: Does true believing result in a new creature
and a permanent change takes place in the heart?
yes, we call it regeneration, and all believers become new creatures, per 2 Cor 5:17.
quote:
If not, doesn't that mean a Christian can live a 100% carnal life
and still be saved?
Once God regenerates a believer, they remain 100% saved. Does that bother you, rw?
quote:
Q: Can the new creature undo what God has done in regeneration?
No. I've repeatedly said this, but apparently you haven't bothered to pay attention. Is that right?
quote:
Q: Do you think one can encounter the Master, the Creator,
the Ruler of the Universe..........GOD..........and NOT
be forever changed???? ( No more than I would not
be changed by a disfiguring car accident, my dear.)
Regeneration is a huge change that is forever.
quote:
If true, then they cannot throw away what God has done.
I agree and so does the FGM.
quote:
And I'm not talking about the promises, I'm talking about
Phil 1:6. Can a believer be experiencing 0% sanctification?
Since you never answered my question about checking out the link on the 3 tenses of salvation (sanctification), please tell me which tense you are referring to here. If you cannot determine which of the 3 tenses you are asking about, then it is clear you don't understand that there are 3 tenses.
quote:
You cite the example of Solomon. OK, but what does perseverance
mean, then? We can either fall away completely and still be saved
or not fall away completely and still be saved-- which is it?
Jesus clarified that question for you, rw. He told us the second soil believed for a while. So, one can fall away from the faith completely, yet God is the One who maintains our salvation, so why does that bother you so much?
quote:
But those who take the "free gift" (which cost our Lord EVERYTHING)
with one hand and shake their fist at God with the other need to look at
what they think they are holding: a handful of nothing
but "mental assent" and confidence in the flesh.
Your "shaking fist at God" is merely theatricals, imho. Do you know anyone who has done that, or anyone who supports that kind of nonsense? That does NOT represent FGM in the slightest.
If you don't pay attention to what I post, then please pay attention to what Del posts.
quote:
Ode, are you really satisfied with theology that places
one's confidence in what they think rather than
the real changes wrought by the work of God
in salvation and born again?
She will have an answer that is better than mine, but once again, rw, the only confidence we can have is in what God has told us and promises us, not what we are doing; regardless of who you think is getting the credit.
quote:
For me, I'll put my confidence in God, not what I think I believe....
How can you place any confidence in God, since you have repudiated what you "think you believe"? iow, you can only know Who God is, and what He wants you to do by reading His Word, and believing it. But you have already said you don't trust what you think, so your problem extends much farther than just grasping theology.
quote:
BTW, doubts never send anyone to hell, but deception certainly has.
Oh, really? What about the person who doubts that Christ died for them? Where do you think they are going to spend eternity?
Please consider the whole range of thought when you post, rw.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 2:36:54 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
The point remains that many are called, but not all of them respond in faith.
Romans 8:29-30 tells us something different. Paul uses the term "called" differently than the Lord Jesus Christ uses it in Matthew 22:14
I'm still waiting for some support for your notion.
quote:
All who are called are justified. None reject this call.
True in Rom 8, but not true in Matt 22.
quote:
There is a select group called "those whom He foreknew."
Yes, they are the ones who believed in His Son.
quote:
It is these and these alone that God calls.
Matt 22:14 contradicts you. You even admitted that those who hear the gospel are invited (called) to believe it. And we know that not everyone who hears believes.
quote:
It is only those whom God predestined that He also called.
Only in Rom 8. Matt 22:14 contradicts your view.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 2:42:54 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
quote:
God does not call those outside of the group of people whom He foreknew; he only calls those whom He foreknew.
What do you do with Matt 22:14? Many are called, but few are chosen. iow, many are invited to believe, but only a few are chosen for salvation cf. 2 Thess 2:13.
I do with it just what it says. Many are invited to be saved, but only those who have been chosen (or "called" as Paul uses the term in Rom 8) are saved.
So then, it appears you think "many" are called to believe the gospel but the gospel isn't presented to them? Your view still violates what Matt 22:14 clearly notes.
quote:
Romans 8:29-30 is as true as Matt 22:14. Paul uses the word "called" in the same way the Lord Jesus Christ uses the word "chosen".
What you fail to realize is that in Rom 8 Paul is speaking only of those who believed the invitation, whereas in Matt 22:14 all who hear the gospel are invited to believe, but not all do believe. I can't imagine why this seems to be so difficult for you.
quote:
quote:
quote:
All those whom God called He justified and glorified. So, according to Paul in Romans 8, if a person has been called he is also justified.
Since "all those" refers only to believers, who were invited and responded, Paul calls them the "called".
No, Paul did not call them "the called" (noun).
Paul said that God "called" them (verb).
OK, Paul said that God "called" (invited) them. I agree. And in the context of Tom 8, they all believed. Yet in Matt 22:14, although many are called (invited), not many are chosen for salvation. Why not? They didn't believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 2:50:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Disputation of the teachings of Zane Hodges.
rw, shame on you.
What don't you disagree with, Free?
Your quoting from the opposition. How is that fair or objective? Why can't you find quotes directly from the source since you "think" you disagree with them?
quote:
You have said repentance = believing.
What does metanioa mean to you?
quote:
You have said an atheist can be saved.
Thanks for the "half truth". Why didn't you add "an atheist who at one time believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life"? It is not intellectually honest to only portray only "half truths". I'll bet over 99% of atheists have never believed in Christ. They sure aren't saved. So, please try your best to be intellectually honest, OK?
quote:
You have said fruit is not a given.
No, I didn't. But I quoted Jesus, who said that.
quote:
What is 'twisted'?
Apparently your view of what Jesus told us.
quote:
I would appreciate if you would go through point by point.
Which ones?
quote:
BTW, I have also read from Grace Evangelical Society.
OK, now, maybe, we can "get somewhere". Please find what you disagree about, and quote the whole thing, not just part of something you disagree with, like you repeatedly do with this "saved atheist" thing. OK?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 3:00:26 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
FREEGRACE
from http://www.faithalone.org
What must I [do] BELIEVE to be saved?
A blatant mischaracterization of the gospel message.
(Read Acts 2:38 - did they not ask this question?)
I'm not sure what they were asking. They only said, "What should we do?" In Acts 16:31 the jailer did specifically ask this question, and Paul was very clear with him. Do you think Paul's answer equates to "easy believism"? Why or why not? Please respond.
quote:
quote:
IJesus Christ said, "He who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47). He also said, "He who lives and believes in Me will never die." Eternal life is eternal. Wonderful.
I mean no offense, but was your response in sarcasm or sincerity, since John 6:47 seems to be "easy believism".
quote:
quote:
Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29). He has removed the sin barrier which separated us from God. However, we still lack spiritual life, eternal life. To get that life, we must simply believe in Jesus for it. There are no strings attached. Our eternal salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2:9). Marvelous.
Again, is this just sasrcasm or what? If you disagree with these statements, please explain exactly what is in error, please.
quote:
quote]Simply believe in Jesus and He guarantees you will never die spiritually. You will go to heaven when you die, and spend eternity in God's kingdom. It really is that simple. That's why it's called Good News. Big problems here for me as a born again.
You seem to be having big problems with what the Bible teaches.
quote:
1) No mention at all of born again requirement.
I saw it. Why couldn't you?
quote:
2) Blatantly man-centered.
You are going to have to take it real slow and show me, since I don't see it anywhere. All I saw was that Jesus is the One who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. Why do you have problems with that?
quote:
There is a narrow gate and a narrow road, friend.
Of course. Jesus made that perfectly clear in John 14:6.
quote:
The whole gospel is we are saved, we are being saved,
and we will be saved.
That's what the 3 tenses I mentioned are all about. But you never answered my questions about it, did you.
quote:
The evidence we have believed is not based on what we think
we have believed, but on God's transformation of the wicked,
vile creature.
I don't disagree with this, but that probably confuses you all the more.
quote:
Its all wrapped up nice an neat and easy to believe.
OK, please clarify. Is believing the gospel something hard to do? If so, please explain how and why. Thanks.
quote:
All I ask is take a look at what we call Christianity today
and work backwards to the doctrine that produces it.
I suggest you begin and end with Scripture. I cannot control what happens in the world today. I can only be willing to serve and obey my Lord, and trust in His Holy Spirit to enable me to do so.
quote:
No man can encounter God and not be permanently changed,
and I beleive this with all my HEART....................
What you keep failing to grasp is that regeneration is that permanent change, which I also believe as much as you do.
Our difference is that you place ALL EMPHASIS on your "outworking evidence", which is what you are doing. That is man-centered, imho.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 3:08:44 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5950
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: johnkw
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: johnkw
"Before the foundation of the world" is when it happenend.
From His foreknowledge or omniscience that shouldn't be difficult to accept.
"Foreknew" in Romans 8:29 doesn't mean that God knew a certain fact. It is verb every bit as active as "predestine", "call", "justify", and "glorify". English doesn't differentiate, but Spanish (and I suspect the other Romance languages) differentiates between an impersonal knowing of facts (saber) and a personal knowledge of someone (conocer). The Greek word is proginosko, which means active, personal, intimate, knowledge. It is not God's omniscient passive knowledge of whether someone will have faith. There are several usages in the OT of "love" in this sense as well.
I've not said anything about "passive" vs "active". I really don't know what you are charging. Of course God has an intimate personal knowledge of those He foreknew. Who do you know who disagrees with that?
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And from John 6, we find that God's choosing us comes before our faith and is a direct cause of our faith.
Please provide the verse you are thinking of.
John 6:37-40,44: "37.All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
I don't see choosing come before faith here.
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38.For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39.And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
40.For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
44."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Nor here, either.
Gal 3:2 and 5 are clear that we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of believing. If God regenerates before faith, and regeneration is what the Holy Spirit does, then Gal 3:2 and 5 contradict that. But they don't because regeneration doesn't precede faith.
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I don't see the difference between "in Him" and "to be in Him". Sounds like a bit of squirming.
I'm not squirming. There isn't any "to be" in the sentence. Maybe you are.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 3:28:17 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1529
Status: offline
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FREE: Regeneration is a huge change that is forever.
So is regeneration merely a change in status
rather than a change in heart?
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RWE: does that mean a Christian can live a
100% carnal life and still be saved?
FG: Once God regenerates a believer, they remain
100% saved. Does that bother you, rw?
I do not reject security of the believer.
I reject theology that says change does not occur
in a believer's life unless they want it to.
Explains your "invisible regeneration" theory.
Also explains why the "church" today is largely invisible. 
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Your "shaking fist at God" is merely theatricals, imho.
Does this bother you?
That's what your saved atheist (pttooowee) is doing, friend.
In fact, its worse than that. He is now an enemy of God.
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Do you know anyone who has done that, or anyone
who supports that kind of nonsense? That does NOT represent
FGM in the slightest.
And the winner of the Oscar for Best Deceiver is.......
FGM's Saved Atheist, starring in "I Think Therefore I Am (Saved)"
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How can you place any confidence in God, since
you have repudiated what you "think you believe"?
I am a new person.
And my flesh hates it.
That is not based on what I think.
It is MUCH more real.
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you can only know Who God is, and what He
wants you to do by reading His Word, and believing it.
But you have already said you don't trust what you think,
so your problem extends much farther than just grasping theology. First, I don't need you telling me I have a problem, OK?
Second, finding the will of God for my life is simply torturous
for me. I have concluded the only way I can is to
my mind OUT of the way and quit thinking too much!!
Half the time I am saying, "God is this you, me or gas?" and the
other time I am saying "God, will you PLEASE leave me alone?".
Does that make any sense to you?
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Oh, really? What about the person who doubts that
Christ died for them? Where do you think they are going to
spend eternity? Just proves you believe what a person
thinks makes them saved, not God and the Holy Spirit.
If I am saved, no matter whether I go through a period of
doubt, I am still saved - I haven't rejected God - I am
simply weakened by what my mind is telling me.
But if I am deceived - I think I am saved but may not be.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 4:50:20 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1991
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Taking some time from these forums, and I see nothing has changed except the number of pages.
Well, let's jump back in, shall we.
I would like to start back with the order of salvation again.
(Rom 8:28 ESV) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Notice the word called in this verse. It literally means, "invited, or appointed". And it is according to God's purpose, not our own.
(Rom 8:29 ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
The word "foreknew" here is a compound word meaning to know beforehand where the word know is the same as that used when the Bible talks of two people being intimate as in Genesis 4:1 when Adam knew Eve, which is more of an intimate love as an action. So, based on that study of the compound word and other uses, we can conclude that God fore-loved those he called according to his purpose. It's not a matter of looking into the future as is often mis-interpretated. God, being the creator of time, is outside time and cannot look to the future.That's utter nonsense. He only knows who will believe because he has foreknown who will believe.
He has predestined those he foreloved. Yet another compound word. He has limited those he has called to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Is someone who professes to be a believer, but lives a life completely opposite that, being conformed to the image of Christ? Do they exude Christ? Is there any element of Christ in their lives other than their profession? This scripture seems to indicate that the ones that God has called will be conformed.
The firstborn part is actually talking about Christ in that Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the First Fruits festival. Christ was the firstborn of the new resurrection. Believers in Christ share in that firstbornness (if I can create that word). They are being conformed to the image of Christ because they have been predestined to. One who rejects to live the life of Christ but professes Christ is most likely not a believer. What does it mean to believe in Christ? To accept God's calling is to accept to live the life that Christ lived. If one rejects the life that Christ lived, then they are not a believer.
(Rom 8:30 ESV) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
He has called, justified, and made glorious those whom he has predestined. What does all that mean?
Is one who once professed Christ, but lives the life of an atheist or some other religion justified and glorious? According to FG theology, yes. According to the Bible, no. Why?
Look at the following verses:
(1Th 4:3 ESV) For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
(1Th 4:4 ESV) that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,
(1Th 4:5 ESV) not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;
(1Th 4:6 ESV) that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you.
(1Th 4:7 ESV) For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.
If one is living in continued unrepentance of these things, are they thwarting the will of God, if they once believed? They would be according to FG theology, but the Bible seems clear that God's Will cannot be thwarted. It was God's will from before the foundation of the world that Jesus be crucified. That makes Adam and Eve's sin purposeful. Not that God pushed them to sin, but that he allowed them to sin. For what purpose? For His Glory. Everything he does is for His Glory. Can we understand that in our feeble minds? Not really.
I leave you with this:
(Rom 9:16 ESV) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(Rom 9:17 ESV) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(Rom 9:18 ESV) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:19 ESV) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
(Rom 9:20 ESV) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(Rom 9:21 ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(Rom 9:22 ESV) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(Rom 9:23 ESV) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:24 ESV) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
God's will cannot be thwarted. God does not say "oops".
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 5:04:34 PM
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Destiny7777
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2008
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FG: What do you do with Matt 22:14? Many are called, but few are chosen. iow, many are invited to believe, but only a few are chosen for salvation cf. 2 Thess 2:13.
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SH : I do with it just what it says. Many are invited to be saved, but only those who have been chosen (or "called" as Paul uses the term in Rom 8) are saved.
Romans 8:29-30 is as true as Matt 22:14. Paul uses the word "called" in the same way the Lord Jesus Christ uses the word "chosen".
I think I can see SureHope's point in all of this "called" business. It all boils down to the necessity that there must be 2 different "types?" of calls going on. The lexicon lists 4 different definitions. Matt. 22:14 uses definition 2 and Romans 8:29-30 uses definition 4. Am I right in this?
Also a while back I had asked about the "called" Romans 8:28 - If all things work together for good to those who are the called according to His purpose, then this can't be the general call of the gospel. I would be interested to hear anyone's views on this verse. Thank You
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 6:12:14 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 393
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: johnkw
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What is your support for God doing the appointing, since Luke didn't mention Him, though when he used tasso and meant God, he noted that?
James White, listening to his recent debate on Calvinism with Steve Gregg. It's also in his book "The Potter's Freedom", I believe.
What kind of Greek scholar is he?
Quite an excellent one. He taught Greek for 6 years at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. He was a Critical Consultant for the 1995 New American Standard Bible Update. I could go on, but these should be good enough credentials for him to get a hearing.
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The point is that you can't take "tetagmenoi" (which is the perfect form of tasso) alone here, because there's another word attached to it--"esan" (sorry, I misspoke earlier), which is a form of "to be". "Esan tetagmenoi" must be taken together, and they mean something completely different from tetagmenoi taken alone. It is a pluperfect. It means that someone else in the past had actually done something to these Gentiles prior to this story in Acts 13.
There are Greek scholars who would strongly disagree with this analysis.
Who are they?
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Why do most committee translations, composed of people from all sorts of theological backgrounds (arminian and reformed, etc.), translate this as "as many as had been appointed to eternal life"?
I've heard that most committees just go along with what was initially translated,
From whom did you hear this? Doesn't sound right. There has been a ton of improvement to the KJV in the last 400 years, especially since many ancient manuscripts have been found since then.
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and when the KJV was translated, most translators were reformed. Go figure.
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Who else would do such appointing?
No one else. When Luke wanted us to know that God was doing the appointing, he said so. In Acts 13, he was clear that the Gentiles were very interested in what Paul was saying, begged him to return the next Sabbath, and "nearly the whole town" came out to hear him. Devoted? Certainly, which is a translation of tasso in 1 Cor 16:15.
The occurence of tasso in 1 Cor 16:15 has the reflexive pronoun "eautous", or "themselves", which definitely gives it the meaning of devoting themselves. Acts 13:48 does not. You would need to put in the reflexive pronoun to make Acts 13:48 mean "dispose themselves".
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It was just a revealing comment in passing.
The context certainly revealed how interested the Gentiles were in hearing what P | | | |
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