|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:58:22 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1903
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'll make it easy - please tell me why isn't FG easy believism? I will, but define easy believism, please. What does it mean actually?
quote:
Where is the heart also called the mind? We think with our heart mind, but in different ways. And then there is spiritual knowledge...... If heart and mind were the same, then why
"Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength......" Sorry, but heart-know and mind-know ARE different. That is the meaning of Rom 10:9. Paul lost the men of Athens
when he spoke of resurrection - their logical minds rejected it.
Dear rwe, not to overburden you, but while you are at it- please give me the definition of the word "heart" in this context? As precise and sermonese –free as possible, I will owe you big, for I am totally lost whenever someone gets into that heart/mind debate. I know that"
1. Heart is the organ that pumps blood.
2. Often used as a substitute for emotions, feelings, etc. The heart (strawberry shaped organ located in the chest) can’t believe.Mind is the only organ that can believe. If someone’s mind is not functioning, heart can’t assume it’s functions. Emotions and feelings do not mean true faith either.
3 Also Heart is the organ that most men and boys around my age mistake another organ for, where the feeling, that they mistake for love, originates. Neither of those organs can independently think ; even guys often are accused of having them“ do the thinking for you, evidently”.
That wraps up my knowledge on the subject of heart.
In which way do you mean "believing in the heart" vs. "in the mind" authenticates faith? Heart, as the Bible and any divorce attorney can testify, is deceitful about all things and desperately wicked. Bible also tells us that "New heart" God puts in us, which I understand as new birth basically. FG affirms that new heart, or new birth is what makes one a saved believer, which is not fleshy heart but the spirit. Faith however resides in the mind and mind only. Please comment.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:53:30 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
|
Dear Odeliya,
Do you really think Heb 11:1 is
intellectual acknowledgment or is
their some other kind
of knowing or understanding?
There were many who believed in Christ because
miracles he performed, but did not truly believe.
I can know facts about Jesus and not be saved. Agree?
The heart is NOT the same as the mind. If it was, why
would the command say Love the Lord with all 3
parts of our being, heart, mind and soul?
I think you are looking at it literally.
The heart is more than a blood pumping organ.
It is how we can believe Heb 11:1.
Yes, I must use my mind to understand the gospel.
But when my heart is quickened, what does that mean?
It means the message has penetrated more than my mind.
What Free doesn't seem to understand it that even though
I use my mind in regards to faith, the work of God in
my life is not something I give him permission to do,
nor is it something I would want to do of the flesh.
Some of the fruit I bear is the result of surrender,
not cooperation.
My relationship with God is difficult to explain.
But I think I could worship God and be a brother to Freegrace.
I am simply saying when a person is saved, certain inevitable
outward noticeable and tangible changes occur.
It is NOT works based salvation.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 11:59:53 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
|
quote:
1. Past tense sanctification = saved from the penalty of sin. We cannot be judged.
2. Present tense sanctification = saved from the power of sin. We are freed from sin's power, although we are still free to sin.
3. Future tense sanctification = saved from the presense of sin. There is no sin in heaven.
OK
I just believe (in my heart  that it happens to one
one degree or another to everyone is saved.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 1:22:55 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
I said we're not told "when" he became saved. But, if he(Sol) was saved before he became an idol worshipper, he later repented of his sin. Now, if an atheist repented of his sin, sure, the possibility exists he might have been saved "while" being an atheist.
May I assure you my of sincere respect, K. It takes a real man to admit something like that after denying it. I am confident you havent changed your opinion about the FG theology but you admit that the possibility of a person being a saved atheist exist. I am glad we do understand each other on this. Not so fast with the compliment, Odeliya...you may want to withdraw it :)
It has always been my contention that if one dies an atheist (regardless if at some earlier time he professed belief) he dies unsaved and will never enter heaven. OTOH, and in answer to your question, had this atheist repented of his sin it is theoretically possible he could have been saved while he was still an atheist.
It seems your position is that it doesn't matter that this atheist may have actually believed in Christ at a point in time. iow, faith really isn't the issue in who goes to heaven. Is that correct?
quote:
quote:
quote:
But, FGM theology teaches that this atheist need not repent to go to heaven, or, for that matter neither does the idolator.
I've never seen it teaching that. It says that a true, saved believer can become an atheist at certain point and still remain saved – which is not the same to me as telling a person he does not need to repent. The point, I think is that if the atheist dies as an atheist, he hasn't repented. He has not turned to God and turned from sin. Therefore, there is no basis whatsoever for him to have ever been considered a "true believer". Afterall, what is it that he believes in?
Even if he actually at one time did believe the gospel?
quote:
FGM does teach that the atheist may die an atheist; but, based on a "one time" prior decision to believe - he is saved. I don't see any scriptural support for that.
Please tell me what is unclear about what Jesus said in Luke 8:12 where He equated believing with being saved? Then, He tells us that the second soil believed. 1 + 1 = 2. You are basing your interpretation on the lifestyle of the second soil (believed only for a while, and didn't produce fruit). But since Jesus equated believing with being saved, there is no other conclusion; but that the second soil was saved. So, the Bible most definitely DOES teach that one is saved at a point in time based on believing.
quote:
I think that is why God is clear that salvation is all up to Him. It is always the faith of Jesus Christ which saves; and, if He has saved us He gives us faith, repentance and persevance. But, our faith?...no, that can never save.
No one argues that our faith is the source of our salvation. God is. But God saves those who have believed, whether continuously or only for a while. There is no mention in Scripture of having to believe for a specified period of time in order to receive the free gift.
quote:
The Bible knows nothing of an individual dying as a professed unbeliever(atheist) and still being saved. Therefore, I'm afraid FGM theology remains antithetical to Scripture.
What does "believed for a while" mean to you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 1:35:54 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
1. Past tense sanctification = saved from the penalty of sin. We cannot be judged.
2. Present tense sanctification = saved from the power of sin. We are freed from sin's power, although we are still free to sin.
3. Future tense sanctification = saved from the presense of sin. There is no sin in heaven.
OK
OK, as in "I agree with this", or OK as in "I understand what this is, but I do not agree with this? Thanks.
quote:
I just believe (in my heart that it happens to one
one degree or another to everyone is saved.
Since there are 3 tenses presented in Scripture, what I've wanted you to do is identify which] one you seem to be referring to.
Will you,. please?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 6:07:03 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1516
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
FG,
quote:
Since the concept of "call" does depend on the text/context, I am convinced that God has called the entire human race to believe the gospel. In that sense, everyone is "called". Again, many are called, few are chosen.
Because the term “call” does depend on the context of the passage I have come to a completely different conclusion. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul is showing us God’s sovereign action in bringing about His purpose – to bring a people into the image of His Son.
God “causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” God is causing “all things” to work towards the end of bringing a people to Himself for His glory. The term “for” at the beginning of verse 29 shows the connection between v28 and the rest of the passage. Paul is explaining in verses 29-30 how God causes all things to work together for God’s ultimate good.
How does God do this?
Foreknowing a group of people – intimately knowing them before they exist.
Predestinating these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Calling these people in order that they would be justified by faith. Calling here is an act of God that ensures that they will believe.
Justifying these people – there are none others that are justified except for these.
Glorifying these people – this was the end that God had in mind
In this passage Paul is not speaking of a general call, but a call that arrests the attention of all whom He calls, for God’s purpose will not be thwarted – He causes all things to work together to fulfill His good purpose.
quote:
So, to answer your question specifically, yes to #1, no to #2 and 3.
What you are saying is that God foreknew a certain group of people and none others (limited group). God predestined this certain group of people and none others (limited group). God calls all people, even those outside this group of people (unlimited group). God justifies only this certain group of people and none others (limited group). God glorifies only this certain group of people and none others (limited group).
In other words, you are putting emphasis on man’s will and not God’s purpose. It is God’s purpose, not man’s will, which Paul is emphasizing here. God is acting to fulfill His purpose and ensures that it will come to pass. The “call” of God, as used in this passage, is not to all, but limited to those whom He foreknew.
quote:
I am convinced that God has called the entire human race to believe the gospel. In that sense, everyone is "called". Again, many are called, few are chosen.
Regarding the gospel being presented to all; just ask those American Indians who died before David Brainerd lived among them and preached the gospel – these never heard the gospel. The Lord Jesus said “many are called” not “all are called”.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 6:21:43 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1516
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
FG,
quote:
I think Rom 3:23-25 is very clear; that Paul indicated that no one from the human race was excluded from being freely justified through faith in His blood.
Even though some argue that the "all" in v.23 refers "all the way back" to v.22, in "for all whose who believe", the concept presented in v.23 is exactly the same as in 3:9, in that "all are under sin", where it is very clear that Paul was including everyone in the human race.
Romans 3 23-25 says nothing regarding the whole human race being included in being freely justified through faith in His blood. Paul’s point is not concerning the extent of justification, but the way of justification.
Righteousness does not come through the Law, but is “apart from the Law” (v21); it is “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe (v22). When Paul states that “there is no distinction,” he is referring to the false distinction the Jews were making about the way of salvation. Paul had already said that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin” (v9). Paul’s purpose in saying this is to show that a Jew is just as much a sinner as a Gentile. He then restates this in verse 23, “for all have sinned”. He is saying that salvation does not come through Law abiding Jews but, because all have sinned – both Jew and Greek – salvation comes through faith – no matter if you are a Jew or a Greek. His point is that there is no room for boasting because righteousness comes through faith and not works (v27).
The “all have sinned” is referring to both Jew and Greek.
“Being justified as a gift by His grace” in verse 24 is referring to “all those who believe” in verse 22. This is not stating at all that justification is available to all. In other words, if you want to prove that justification is available to all, Romans 3 is not the place to find that proof.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 8:13:54 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
1. Past tense sanctification = saved from the penalty of sin. We cannot be judged.
2. Present tense sanctification = saved from the power of sin. We are freed from sin's power, although we are still free to sin.
3. Future tense sanctification = saved from the presense of sin. There is no sin in heaven.
OK
OK, as in "I agree with this", or OK as in "I understand what this is, but I do not agree with this? Thanks. Agree and understand, but number 2 is where the Christian lives
and this is where we apparently disagree slightly.
My thoughts:
It is a process as well as a position.
It has to do with our relationship with God. Phil 1:6.
It is a believer being set apart for God's purpose
in which God begins a work. Eph 4:10.
It begins the moment we are saved. 1 Cor 6:11.
It is inevitable. John 17:17, Rom 8:29, 1 Thes 4:3.
I don't think a true believer is in total control of it,
nor can the true believer be completely devoid of it.
This is where I live in my relationship with God.
I just cannot imagine a believer with no internal witness
and no relationship with the one who saved them.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 8:36:23 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
Since the concept of "call" does depend on the text/context, I am convinced that God has called the entire human race to believe the gospel. In that sense, everyone is "called". Again, many are called, few are chosen.
Because the term “call” does depend on the context of the passage I have come to a completely different conclusion. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul is showing us God’s sovereign action in bringing about His purpose – to bring a people into the image of His Son.
I don't disagree with this. Yet, Matt 22:14 gives a different picture. The offer of the free gift of eternal life is clearly to more than just those who will believe.
quote:
God “causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” God is causing “all things” to work towards the end of bringing a people to Himself for His glory.
Whas is God's purpose? We find that in 1 Tim 2:4, "God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." There isn't anything in Rom 8:28 that would contradict 1 Tim 2;4.
quote:
Foreknowing a group of people – intimately knowing them before they exist.
Predestinating these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.
All of this must be "filtered" through the fact that Paul did not exclude anyone in the human race from being justified through faith. The bottom line continues to be that Christ died for everyone and that God did NOT pick and choose who would believe. There is no verse that speaks of that. It's not found in the Bible.
quote:
Calling these people in order that they would be justified by faith.
He calls everyone in order that they would be justified by faith.
quote:
Calling here is an act of God that ensures that they will believe.
There is no way the "call" or "invitation" is a guarantee that the invitees will believe. I think you reading your theology into the text, along with some squinting. 
quote:
Justifying these people – there are none others that are justified except for these.
only believers are justified, of course. Again, Paul laid the foundation in Rom 3 that everyone in the human race is under sin (3:9) and all have sinned (3:23) and are (can be) justified freely through faith. You just do not have any support for the notion that God chose who would believe.
quote:
quote:
So, to answer your question specifically, yes to #1, no to #2 and 3.
What you are saying is that God foreknew a certain group of people and none others (limited group). God predestined this certain group of people and none others (limited group). God calls all people, even those outside this group of people (unlimited group). God justifies only this certain group of people and none others (limited group). God glorifies only this certain group of people and none others (limited group).
Too bad you didn't include your questions, for better reference. The post was 29520. Your first sentence doesn't make sense, and I don't agree. God forknew everyone He created, and who would and who wouldn't believe. To those who believe, He predestines. That is what I say.
quote:
In other words, you are putting emphasis on man’s will and not God’s purpose.
Of course. 1 Tim 2:4 says that God wants all men to be saved. The argument that "all men" only means "all kinds of men" comes from theological bias. Paul surely didn't mean only "all kinds of men" in Rom 3:9 and 3:23. And he didn't in 1 Tim 2:4.
quote:
It is God’s purpose, not man’s will, which Paul is emphasizing here.
I fully agree that God's purpose is to justifiy and glorify all believers.
quote:
God is acting to fulfill His purpose and ensures that it will come to pass. The “call” of God, as used in this passage, is not to all, but limited to those whom He foreknew.
Again, I agree.
quote:
quote:
I am convinced that God has called the entire human race to believe the gospel. In that sense, everyone is "called". Again, many are called, few are chosen.
Regarding the gospel being presented to all; just ask those American Indians who died before David Brainerd lived among them and preached the gospel – these never heard the gospel. The Lord Jesus said “many are called” not “all are called”.
I've note previously that God invites those who recognize and honor God as God, per Rom 1. No one in the human race has an excuse for not doing so. Cornelius and Lydia are just two examples of unbelievers who did recognize and honor God. And God invited them.
What does God do with those who are described in Rom 1? He gives them over to their own lusts. iow, He allows their free wills to express themselves.
btw, Acts 2:5 shows that many unbelievers recognized and honored God. Those who do so are invited to believe the gospel. Why would God bother inviting those who do not recognize or honor Him?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 8:48:35 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
I think Rom 3:23-25 is very clear; that Paul indicated that no one from the human race was excluded from being freely justified through faith in His blood.
Even though some argue that the "all" in v.23 refers "all the way back" to v.22, in "for all whose who believe", the concept presented in v.23 is exactly the same as in 3:9, in that "all are under sin", where it is very clear that Paul was including everyone in the human race.
Romans 3 23-25 says nothing regarding the whole human race being included in being freely justified through faith in His blood. Paul’s point is not concerning the extent of justification, but the way of justification.
How can you reject the "extent" when Paul included the entire human race in v.23? Please explain yourself. Who all do you think Paul was referring to in v.23?
quote:
Righteousness does not come through the Law, but is “apart from the Law” (v21); it is “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe (v22). When Paul states that “there is no distinction,” he is referring to the false distinction the Jews were making about the way of salvation.
No, actually, he is stating that righteousness comes only by faith; and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. iow, all in the human race receive righteousness the same way. Go back to 3:9. The comment "for there is no distinction" relates to the statement "for we have already charged that both jews and Greeks are all under sin".
Paul most definitely was including everyone in the human race in both 3:9 and 3:23.
quote:
Paul had already said that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin” (v9). Paul’s purpose in saying this is to show that a Jew is just as much a sinner as a Gentile. He then restates this in verse 23, “for all have sinned”. He is saying that salvation does not come through Law abiding Jews but, because all have sinned – both Jew and Greek – salvation comes through faith – no matter if you are a Jew or a Greek.
yes, and since v.24 immediately follows v.23, he HAS included the entire human race in who can be justified through faith.
quote:
The “all have sinned” is referring to both Jew and Greek.
let's be a little more specific. He was referring to each and every Jew and each and every Gentile. That means everyone in the human race. You cannot escape the fact that Paul included the whole human race in who can be justified. That speaks clearly of the extent of Christ's death. It was for everyone, just as Heb 2:9 states.
quote:
“Being justified as a gift by His grace” in verse 24 is referring to “all those who believe” in verse 22.
That is quite clear and I agree.
quote:
This is not stating at all that justification is available to all.
It surely is. But it is very difficult to see that through the bias of theology. Why don't you read the ESV, which says "for all have sinned...AND ARE justified freely...through faith in His blood". Paul includes the entire human race in v.23 and tells HOW all ARE (can be) justifed.
quote:
In other words, if you want to prove that justification is available to all, Romans 3 is not the place to find that proof.
In other words, that is exactly what Paul was saying. We find the same principle in 1 Tim 2:4, Heb 2:9, 2 John 2:2, and many others.
You provide a clear demonstration of why theological bias colors what you read. By including the entire human race in v.23, Paul was most clearly indicating that justification is available to all. To claim otherwise simply rejects the clear words of Scripture.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 8:55:13 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
1. Past tense sanctification = saved from the penalty of sin. We cannot be judged.
2. Present tense sanctification = saved from the power of sin. We are freed from sin's power, although we are still free to sin.
3. Future tense sanctification = saved from the presense of sin. There is no sin in heaven.
OK
OK, as in "I agree with this", or OK as in "I understand what this is, but I do not agree with this? Thanks. Agree and understand, but number 2 is where the Christian lives
and this is where we apparently disagree slightly.
It is inevitable. John 17:17, Rom 8:29, 1 Thes 4:3.
John 17:17 is not a guarantee, as you seem to think. We are sanctified by God's Word. That is how we are sanctified, as Rom 12:2 also states. When believers don't get and stay in the Word, how can they be sanctified? They can't, which is my point.
[quoet]I don't think a true believer is in total control of it,
nor can the true believer be completely devoid of it.
I've never said a bleiever is in total control of anything. The believer must be willing and obedient for God to work in and through him. That is clear from the commands to be filled with the Spirit. It is not automatic. Also, we are commanded to stop grieving and quenching the Spirit, which are not only possible, but do occur. That's why the Greek is really "stop it".
[quoet]I just cannot imagine a believer with no internal witness
and no relationship with the one who saved them.
Do you base your understanding of Scripture on what you can and cannot "imagine"? Why? Your confession here explains why you cannot accept the words of Jesus in Luke 8:13.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 9:40:28 AM
|
|
|
tdd1975
Posts: 315
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
There is no way the "call" or "invitation" is a guarantee that the invitees will believe. I think you reading your theology into the text, along with some squinting.
I disagree. The bible says.
Isaac — 11for the children being not yet born, neither having done
anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might
stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
The power is in the call not the answer. The power is in the gospel not the unregenerate that it goes out to.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 10:21:04 AM
|
|
|
Diolectic
Posts: 618
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
|
Maligning the chracter of GOD
If God were to create some men and not give atonment for them, He would then portray HIS own character as trash, for HE created man in HIS image.
If HE were to make people and not send His son for all of mankind, not just the elect, He is virtualy saying, "MY character is something worth throwing away as rubbish.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 12:10:52 PM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
|
Free -
First, although I know our own experiences
can be very misleading, the reality is we can
only truly understand certain things like sanctification
as an experience and not simply knowledge, such
as eternal security, justification, etc.
I know [:) it is unavoidable that personal
experience is one of the presuppositions we must
deal with. Others include, denominational biases,
preachers, teachers, books..... and Mama
Second, we agree every believer has a different
relationship with God and what the degree of sanctification
and spiritual growth they experience.
It is easy to become a "spiritual snob" if you do
experience a closeness and much growth.
I teach my boys what I know and that is
becoming a believer causes transformation
and we should EXPECT to experience a
relationship with God that is real, useful,
and practical and sometimes difficult.
There are often things which I don't just "decide" to do,
but things or ways I just "do" -- often very mysterious,
often very hard to understand. But I think it is the
result of just being a "new/old man".
If I am experiencing sanctification I can
be sure He knows me.
If I am experiencing no sanctification, how can
I be sure He knows me?
I can say I know him, but what matter is he knows me.
If someone tells you they are experiencing NO
sanctification and they see NO reality of God in
their life, what would you tell them?
I don't think we can "decide" to be sanctified any
more than I believe we can "decide" to be saved.
Thanks for putting up with me.
No worries - if you EVER believed ......
and assure them they are saved?
Or
Review with them why they think they are saved
and why they may be experiencing no sanctification.
They just might be deceived and need the gospel.
FGM would assume they are saved, no?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 3:19:13 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Maligning the chracter of GOD
If God were to create some men and not give atonment for them, He would then portray HIS own character as trash, for HE created man in HIS image.
You've made a good point, Dio.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 3:32:37 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Free -
I teach my boys what I know and that is
becoming a believer causes transformation
and we should EXPECT to experience a
relationship with God that is real, useful,
and practical and sometimes difficult.
I taught my children that being a believer should result in transformation as they grow in Christ.
quote:
If I am experiencing no sanctification, how can
I be sure He knows me?
Because the Bible says that all who believe in Christ as Savior are saved and are elect. Why do you not seem to want to believe what the Bible says?
If you are not experiencing spiritual growth (sanctification), you should do what Paul told the Corinthians to do; which is to examine yourself to see why you aren't growing.
quote:
If someone tells you they are experiencing NO
sanctification and they see NO reality of God in
their life, what would you tell them?
I'd ask them why they aren't. Maybe they didn't understand the real gospel of grace. Maybe the cares of life have distracted them from God. I'd ask a lot of questions. But, the very fact that you noted "someone tells you..." means they have some consciousness about their problem. Those who claim to be Christian and show no evidence, and show no concern may not be a Christian in the Biblical sense.
quote:
I don't think we can "decide" to be sanctified any
more than I believe we can "decide" to be saved.
I don't like the term "decide". We're not saved by our will or decision. We ARE saved by trusting in what God tells us. Likewise, we don't control or decide to be sanctified. It's a process anyway. All we can do is be willing to be transformed, per Rom 12:2.
quote:
Thanks for putting up with me.
You are most welcome!
quote:
No worries - if you EVER believed ......
and assure them they are saved?
No, and yes. Those who have ever believed and have "fallen away" per Luke 8:13 should have big worries. Not about their eternal future, but how their lives are a blemish to their Lord, and the fact that they may face severe discipline from the Lord. But, yes, if they EVER believed, they are saved, because no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand.
quote:
Or
Review with them why they think they are saved
and why they may be experiencing no sanctification.
Absolutely!
quote:
They just might be deceived and need the gospel.
Absolutely!
quote:
FGM would assume they are saved, no?
No, they wouldn't. FGM would do exactly as you have just delineated.
Review with them why they think they are saved (ALWAYS a great question)
Ask them why they aren't experiencing sanctification.
The reason is: they might be deceived and in need of the gospel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 7:28:10 PM
|
|
|
futuremartyr
Posts: 138
Joined: 4/4/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Maligning the chracter of GOD
If God were to create some men and not give atonment for them, He would then portray HIS own character as trash, for HE created man in HIS image.
If HE were to make people and not send His son for all of mankind, not just the elect, He is virtualy saying, "MY character is something worth throwing away as rubbish.
I would love to hear the scripture that backs this statement. If He gave atonement for all men why do some men end up in hell? If the atonement's there it's there, you are saying all men are atoned for. Do you understand what atonement is? If they are atoned for then it wouldn't matter if they were elect or not all atoned for would belong to Christ. Christ died for those He came to save. period. To say he came to save all is not able to accomplish his purposes is exalt man and make God look like trash.
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Arminianism/murray_arminatonement.html
_____________________________
http://teachableheartsathome.blogspot.com/
http://store.familylife.com/conferences/find_conference.asp
|
|
| | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
