|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 8:19:42 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1751
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I've given you ample Scripture on this, rw. One must obey the commands
to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit for
growing in Christ to occur. Also, don't forget the command in Rom 12:2.
When these commands aren't obeyed, growth doesn't occur.
I'll take it to mean you think our sanctification is merely a possibility, then,
in spite of Phil 1:6, Eph 2:10 and others.
quote:
rw, being "in the faith" means to be living the Christian life.
Sorry, I think it means more than that.
I think it speaks to perseverance.
quote:
RWE: How do we know Christ Jesus is in us?
FG: Because God's Word tells us.
How about because we love the brethren?
quote:
I never said there "is" evidence as in guaranteed to happen.
I said evidence as in we might see some.
Yes, God MIGHT begin a work in us.
We MIGHT be God's workmanship and we MIGHT have
works prepared for us in advance.
quote:
RWE: We ARE saved by trusting in what God tells us.
True, but the work of salvation is God's work.
We are saved by the supernatural work of God BASED on our believing.
FG: No difference.
I think there is a difference.
One seems man-centered and the other God-centered.
I bet you can see a difference if you try.
How do we trust? Is it a work of God or man?
Doesn't it depend on the condition of the soil?
quote:
RWE: And can a true believe be in a continual state of unwillingness
his entire Christian life and experience absolutely NO sanctification?
FG: I don't deal in hypotheticals. Jesus told us that some believe for a while,
right after equating believing with being saved. You figure it out.
Hypotheticals??? You constantly tell me one can be saved and
be fruitless, spiritless, and even deny God exists!
And in the last post you just told me you would go to the person
and counsel them as to why they are fruitless.
Now you say they are saved.....I'm confused.
quote:
RWE: I also believe eternal security is only a false doctrine of
man if not coupled with perseverance of the saints.
FG: You are confused and contradicted.
You forgot "conflicted", Free. 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 8:51:01 AM
|
|
|
umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
There is no way the "call" or "invitation" is a guarantee that the invitees will believe. I think you reading your theology into the text, along with some squinting.
I disagree. The bible says.
Isaac — 11for the children being not yet born, neither having done
anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might
stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Yes , that is what the Bible says . If one breaks the verse down in context it means that the children were not even born before God's election . neither having done anything good or bad, is a reference to human works of the law . that the purpose of God according to election might stand, What is the purpose of God according to election (?) the election is not of works, meaning that God's call is not according to the works of the law , ,but of him that calleth . And how does God call (?) , the answer is through the gospel .
The verse means that God's purpose in election was not to save by the works of the law , but by the means of mercy and grace (whom he believed , Romans 4:17) . It does not indicate that salvation is by the reformed idea of election .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 9:07:38 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1522
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
Because the term “call” does depend on the context of the passage I have come to a completely different conclusion. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul is showing us God’s sovereign action in bringing about His purpose – to bring a people into the image of His Son.
God “causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” God is causing “all things” to work towards the end of bringing a people to Himself for His glory. The term “for” at the beginning of verse 29 shows the connection between v28 and the rest of the passage. Paul is explaining in verses 29-30 how God causes all things to work together for God’s ultimate good.
How does God do this?
Foreknowing a group of people – intimately knowing them before they exist.
Predestinating these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Calling these people in order that they would be justified by faith. Calling here is an act of God that ensures that they will believe.
Justifying these people – there are none others that are justified except for these.
Glorifying these people – this was the end that God had in mind
In this passage Paul is not speaking of a general call, but a call that arrests the attention of all whom He calls, for God’s purpose will not be thwarted – He causes all things to work together to fulfill His good purpose.
There are a couple of warning passages in Romans that seem to break your "golden chain" of unconditional , irresistable , individual election to salvation in Romans 8:29-30 . Those are Romans 8:13 and Romans 11:21-22 . Why would such warnings even be stated by Paul if the reformed "golden chain" of Romans 8:29-30 functions as an absolute guarantee for individuals ; these warnings are specifically addressed to the believers Paul was writing too .
The warnings do not negate the sure promises and sovereign & effectual declarations of God.
God's mind is beyond ours. When we try to squeeze God's sovereignty into the realm of man's responsibility we will always end in trouble. IOW, both are true.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 9:56:17 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1522
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Paul's purpose in Rom 3 was not to show that justification is available to all, but to show that all equally need justification because all are sinners.
Actually, Paul showed both points equally.
Not true.
quote:
quote:
Paul is not saying that all sinners are justified
I've never said he said that. He WAS making the point that all can be justified through faith.
No, Paul does not make that point at all.
quote:
quote:
but all believers are justified. This has nothing to do with justification being made available to all.
It has everything to do with justification being available to all.
Not according to Paul in Romans 3
quote:
quote:
quote:
I've note previously that God invites those who recognize and honor God as God, per Rom 1.
Romans 1 has nothing to do with the ability of man to receive the gospel.
I never said that. I said that those who DO recognize and honor God as God are the ones God invites to believe the gospel .
And Romans 1 has nothing to do with that either.
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 concerns those who have rejected the revelation through creation and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
There are 2 sides to that "coin". No one has an excuse for not recognizing God and honoring Him. Cornelius is proof that man can do it. As a result of that, God invited him to believe the gospel.
Romans 1 has nothing to do with this either.
quote:
quote:
quote:
btw, Acts 2:5 shows that many unbelievers recognized and honored God. Those who do so are invited to believe the gospel.
First, being an unbeliever and honoring God are not compatible. The only ones that honor God are those who believe on Christ, love Christ and enjoy Christ. This is what honors God.
So you reject that Cornelius recognized and honored God as an unbeliever? Was Luke lying to us when he recounted the story of him?
Those who were referred to as those who "feared God" were Gentiles who had converted to Judaism. Cornelius did not honor God in his unbelief. Unbelief in and of itself is sin and dishonors God.
quote:
quote:
Second, there are no preconditions to salvation. Honoring God is not that which makes someone deserving to be invited to believe. No one is deserving God's call or His election (choosing).
I've never said anything about "deserving". Why does that word even come up?
You said that it is only those who honor God whom God invites to believe. Those who do not honor God are not invited and those who do honor God are invited. Sounds like a merit system to me.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 1:54:51 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I've given you ample Scripture on this, rw. One must obey the commands
to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to stop grieving/quenching the Spirit for
growing in Christ to occur. Also, don't forget the command in Rom 12:2.
When these commands aren't obeyed, growth doesn't occur.
I'll take it to mean you think our sanctification is merely a possibility, then,
in spite of Phil 1:6, Eph 2:10 and others.
I think you continue to confuse the different tenses of our sanctification, which I've tried to explain to you. Phil and Eph aren't speaking of our temporal sanctification.
quote:
quote:
rw, being "in the faith" means to be living the Christian life.
Sorry, I think it means more than that.
I think it speaks to perseverance.
Well, we're actually on the same page here, rw. For a believer to be living the Christian life IS to be persevering.
quote:
quote:
RWE: How do we know Christ Jesus is in us?
FG: Because God's Word tells us.
How about because we love the brethren?
That's also one. But there are believers who don't love the brethren. But I know, you don't think they are really believers.
quote:
quote:
I never said there "is" evidence as in guaranteed to happen.
I said evidence as in we might see some.
Yes, God MIGHT begin a work in us.
rw, how many times must I repeat that the fact that regeneration IS the work of God in us.
quote:
How do we trust? Is it a work of God or man?
I think it's neither. Rom 4;4,5 differentiates between faith and works.
quote:
Doesn't it depend on the condition of the soil?
Sorry, I don't follow. Does WHAT depend on the soil?
quote:
quote:
FG: I don't deal in hypotheticals. Jesus told us that some believe for a while,
right after equating believing with being saved. You figure it out.
Hypotheticals??? You constantly tell me one can be saved and
be fruitless, spiritless, and even deny God exists!
What Jesus said in Luke 8:12,13 isn't a hypothetical, it that's what you mean. I believe what Jesus plainly said. Apparently you don't.
quote:
quote:
RWE: I also believe eternal security is only a false doctrine of
man if not coupled with perseverance of the saints.
FG: You are confused and contradicted.
You forgot "conflicted", Free.
OK. conflicted. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 2:12:19 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Paul's purpose in Rom 3 was not to show that justification is available to all, but to show that all equally need justification because all are sinners.
Actually, Paul showed both points equally.
Not true.
Please show me by the text that opinion, please.
The fact is that when Paul noted HOW man is freely justified, which is "through faith in His blood", he included the entire human race in v.23. Therefore, he was not excluding anyone from being justified. The key is "faith in His blood", of course.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Paul is not saying that all sinners are justified
I've never said he said that. He WAS making the point that all can be justified through faith.
No, Paul does not make that point at all.
Then please explain why Paul included the entire human race in v.23 which is in the same breath as v.24, which, in the ESV and NIV says "and are justified freely". Thanks. If that isn't "can be", I don't know what is.
quote:
quote:
quote:
but all believers are justified. This has nothing to do with justification being made available to all.
It has everything to do with justification being available to all.
Not according to Paul in Romans 3
Specifically according to Paul in Rom 3:23-25. Other than simply disagree, you haven't shown why your position is correct. I've shown you why my position IS correct.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Romans 1 concerns those who have rejected the revelation through creation and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
There are 2 sides to that "coin". No one has an excuse for not recognizing God and honoring Him. Cornelius is proof that man can do it. As a result of that, God invited him to believe the gospel.
Romans 1 has nothing to do with this either.
You're quite the disagreeable sort.  When Paul states that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God, he is indicating that everyone has the ability to do so. I know your theology denies that.
quote:
quote:
btw, Acts 2:5 shows that many unbelievers recognized and honored God. Those who do so are invited to believe the gospel.
First, being an unbeliever and honoring God are not compatible.
Not necessarily. When one begins to realize that God exists and created the universe, that IS a form of honoring. I think you are taking the word "honor" too far. How about respect of the Creator? Many unbelievers do that. But that doesn't save them. But it does demonstrate that they are conscious of God.
quote:
The only ones that honor God are those who believe on Christ, love Christ and enjoy Christ. This is what honors God.
In the highest of meaning, yes. But I think you are taking it too far. Anyway, Corelius is a great example of an unbeliever who was conscious of God, and honored Him prior to being saved. So your opinion and theology are contradicted by him, anyway.
quote:
quote:
So you reject that Cornelius recognized and honored God as an unbeliever? Was Luke lying to us when he recounted the story of him?
Those who were referred to as those who "feared God" were Gentiles who had converted to Judaism. Cornelius did not honor God in his unbelief. Unbelief in and of itself is sin and dishonors God.
Then please explain WHY God heard his prayers and alms and answered him. He disproves your theology quite clearly. There is nothing in Acts 10 that indicates that what Cornelius did was dishonoring to God. Quite the contrary, actually.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Second, there are no preconditions to salvation. Honoring God is not that which makes someone deserving to be invited to believe. No one is deserving God's call or His election (choosing).
I've never said anything about "deserving". Why does that word even come up?
You said that it is only those who honor God whom God invites to believe.
I stand by that. That doesn't make them "deserving" any more than your notion that God chooses who will believe makes you deserving of your salvation.
Please answer: why would/should God invite those who don't recognize or honor Him as God to believe the gospel?
quote:
Those who do not honor God are not invited and those who do honor God are invited. Sounds like a merit system to me.
Sheesh! No, it "sounds" more like God providing more information to those who are interested. Is that a problem for you?
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/21/2008 2:20:36 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 2:13:39 PM
|
|
|
tdd1975
Posts: 326
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes , that is what the Bible says . If one breaks the verse down in context it means that the children were not even born before God's election . neither having done anything good or bad, is a reference to human works of the law . that the purpose of God according to election might stand, What is the purpose of God according to election (?) the election is not of works, meaning that God's call is not according to the works of the law , ,but of him that calleth . And how does God call (?) , the answer is through the gospel .
I agree with this. I don’t think that it contradicts anything I said.
quote:
And how does God call (?) , the answer is through the gospel .
Do you believe that Esau had the exact same call as Jacob?
quote:
The verse means that God's purpose in election was not to save by the works of the law , but by the means of mercy and grace (whom he believed , Romans 4:17) . It does not indicate that salvation is by the reformed idea of election.
God didn’t just choose a plan. He chose Jacob (a person) and didn’t choose Esau (a person).
Look, we agree that salvation is by grace through faith. Only believers will be saved. We know this is true. We also agree that it is by the gospel that people are called. You may not believe me but I exhort all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. I love the verse in revelation that says “he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely”
When someone does believe and repent, Does the person presenting the gospel pat themselves on the back as say good job at persuading them. No and I don’t think you would either. We know that the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts and saves. My point is that there has to be more than just the call that comes forth from our lips in order for it to be successful. Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain. Ps 127:1
And what of the person who believes? If we ask them “who made you to differ”? Will they say that they on their own just got it? That they finally figured out they need Jesus? No. It was God that made the difference. Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Co 4:6 God has to take the veil away.
It is Him that calls that gets the glory not the one who answers.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 2:56:23 PM
|
|
|
Diolectic
Posts: 620
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: futuremartyrquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Maligning the chracter of GOD
If God were to create some men and not give atonment for them, He would then portray HIS own character as trash, for HE created man in HIS image.
If HE were to make people and not send His son for all of mankind, not just the elect, He is virtualy saying, "MY character is something worth throwing away as rubbish. I would love to hear the scripture that backs this statement. I thought every one knew this.
Gen 1:26
quote:
If He gave atonement for all men why do some men end up in hell? Not becaue God wanted them there, but because men chosed to deny the truth.
Why else are the condemnd?
quote:
If the atonement's there it's there, you are saying all men are atoned for. No, I'm not saying that.
The atonment is there for all who chooses to "believe"
quote:
Do you understand what atonement is? Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness.
quote:
Christ died for those He came to save. period. He came to save all mankind.
If not, He would basically be saying that HIS character is worth rubish.
Example:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Therefore, let us destroy that image in hell with out trying to save them all.
quote:
To say that He came to save all and is not able to accomplish his purposes is to exalt man and make God look like trash.
Gods Purpose is not what you think.
God's purpose was to Blot out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us(Col 2:14) so that those who followe after the law of righteousness may recieve it by seeking it by faith(Rom 9:30-31 & Heb 4:2) so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:4)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 8:36:57 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
You constantly tell me one can be saved and
be fruitless, spiritless, and even deny God exists!
Hold on a minute, rw. I never said anyone who is "spiritless" is saved. Never. Please don't misquote me.
It was Jesus who told us that some believers (that means saved, per Luke 8:12) don't persevere in their faith, and don't produce fruit. So, I'm only repeating what the Bible says. I didn't make this up. But I never said one who is spiritless is saved. John 4:24 should make that clear enough.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 9:31:06 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1908
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Do you really think Heb 11:1 is intellectual acknowledgment or is their some other kind
of knowing or understanding? Salvific faith is being born again of God, that is spiritual, it is not located in a particular organ. In a physical person faith demonstrates itself in intellectual belief.A person w/out a brain can’t believe. Functioning brain, or mind, is where the belief resides.
quote:
I can know facts about Jesus and not be saved. Agree? Correct. My father is the poster child for that, he knows NT left, right and backwards and is not a believer.
quote:
But when my heart is quickened, what does that mean? It means the message has penetrated more than my mind. In English,dear friend,not sermonese.
Phrase above is pretty for a sermon or church sign but not substantial enough for a debate.I was specific to the point of graphic, explaining what is "heart". You are being vague. Please be honest. I suggested – new birth,Spirit in us. what is your definition?
quote:
I am simply saying when a person is saved, certain inevitable outward noticeable and tangible changes occur. So does FG. Nobody denies the regeneration.
If we trying to say that salvation status indicator is works/fruit we are shooting ourselves in the foot- because based on Biblical standards of how should a Christian act nobody fits the description!
LS cant stand by this theory without severely compromising and reducing the requirements, for if it doesnt do that, then nobody is saved! And that is what I see as hypocrisy.
You and FG mentioned your juniors, very appropriate to the debate.I am an aunt, and I know some basics about kids as well – they cant be lied to. If salvation is by faith alone that is how we have to present it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 7:58:18 AM
|
|
|
umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
Because the term “call” does depend on the context of the passage I have come to a completely different conclusion. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul is showing us God’s sovereign action in bringing about His purpose – to bring a people into the image of His Son.
God “causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” God is causing “all things” to work towards the end of bringing a people to Himself for His glory. The term “for” at the beginning of verse 29 shows the connection between v28 and the rest of the passage. Paul is explaining in verses 29-30 how God causes all things to work together for God’s ultimate good.
How does God do this?
Foreknowing a group of people – intimately knowing them before they exist.
Predestinating these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Calling these people in order that they would be justified by faith. Calling here is an act of God that ensures that they will believe.
Justifying these people – there are none others that are justified except for these.
Glorifying these people – this was the end that God had in mind
In this passage Paul is not speaking of a general call, but a call that arrests the attention of all whom He calls, for God’s purpose will not be thwarted – He causes all things to work together to fulfill His good purpose.
There are a couple of warning passages in Romans that seem to break your "golden chain" of unconditional , irresistable , individual election to salvation in Romans 8:29-30 . Those are Romans 8:13 and Romans 11:21-22 . Why would such warnings even be stated by Paul if the reformed "golden chain" of Romans 8:29-30 functions as an absolute guarantee for individuals ; these warnings are specifically addressed to the believers Paul was writing too .
The warnings do not negate the sure promises and sovereign & effectual declarations of God.
God's mind is beyond ours. When we try to squeeze God's sovereignty into the realm of man's responsibility we will always end in trouble. IOW, both are true.
Of course they don't negate the sure promises and sovereign & effectual declarations of God ; they simply negate the reformed "golden chain" .
We can certainly understand God's sovereignty , and not understand His mind : who has ever tried to squeeze God's sovereignty into the realm of man's reaponsibility (?) that makes no sense to me . But of course , both are true , I know of no one here that deny's that .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 8:17:04 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 1751
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think you continue to confuse the different tenses of our sanctification,
which I've tried to explain to you.
Phil and Eph aren't speaking of our temporal sanctification.
that he who began a good work in you will carry it on
to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This isn't present tense. If he began a work in me and will
see it to completion is not progressive sanctification?
I think there is little interpretation here.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
To do good works when, in heaven?
If not for our life on earth, when is it for?
No, I think ([:]) I understand the tenses. But we must be
careful not to confuse past tense sanctification with justification.
I think ( future tense sanct. = glorification.
Will a believer's faith translate into any REALITY in a Christian's life?
Will God's regenerating work evidence itself in ANY real way?
Or can it simply be confined to what one's mind perceives?
I don't think ( ) Heb 11:1 can be understood with only the mind.
I submit this verse proves faith does not originate in mental assent.
As a matter of fact, the mind will reject this statement as silliness. It is only
possible if the heart has been opened to understand spiritual things.
And then, strangely, Heb 11:1 becomes the reality we live in.
I think faith IS a reality for a Christian. It MUST be or our
confidence lies in what our mind tells us.
How radical! God begins a work and He actually works!
If it is not, then we are nothing but philosophers and the "right"
one is the smartest one
..............or the most proud.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 8:23:09 AM
|
|
|
umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Do you believe that Esau had the exact same call as Jacob?
Of course not . Jacob was called to inherit the blessing , the linage of ethnic Israel : iow's God chose Jacob and his descendents (just as He chose Abraham and Isaac) instead of Esau (or Ishmael) and his descendents to make up ethnic Israel .
quote:
God didn’t just choose a plan. He chose Jacob (a person) and didn’t choose Esau (a person).
The choice was not only for Jacob , but all of Jacob's descendents after him . There is absolutely no Scriptural proof that this choice had anything whatsoever to do with salvation else all ethnic Israel would have inherited salvation through this choice .
quote:
God has to take the veil away.
Nevertheless , when one shall turn to the Lord , the veil shall be taken away (2 Cor 3:16) . One turns to the Lord first , then the veil is taken away .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 8:48:20 AM
|
|
|
umcbee
Posts: 1658
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Excuse me here rwe and FG , I had to jump in to make a few points .
quote:
that he who began a good work in you will carry it on
to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This isn't present tense. If he began a work in me and will
see it to completion is not progressive sanctification?
Yes , and where do you anywhere see the "you do something" in that verse to give God a helping hand ?
quote:
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
To do good works when, in heaven?
If not for our life on earth, when is it for?
To do good works on earth . The good works are prepared to do ; do you in any way believe that you will get them all done ? If you do , when ? And when do you know if you have done them all ? And what do you do after you have done them all ?
I'll ask , are all the fruit of the Spirit a reality and completely fulfilled in your life at present ? Do you believe that you will ever display the fruit of the Spirit completely 100% of the time ? If not then why ?
quote:
No, I think ([:]) I understand the tenses. But we must be
careful not to confuse past tense sanctification with justification.
I think ( future tense sanct. = glorification.
A believer neither sanctifies (in any tense) nor justifies themselves . Nothing a believer can or will ever do makes them more sanctified nor more justified : these two things are totally the work of God , not the believer . We don't work for sanctification nor do we work for justification .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 10:52:15 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I think you continue to confuse the different tenses of our sanctification,
which I've tried to explain to you.
Phil and Eph aren't speaking of our temporal sanctification.
that he who began a good work in you will carry it on
to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This isn't present tense. If he began a work in me and will
see it to completion is not progressive sanctification?
Nope. It's referring to our regeneration, which means that "once regenerated, always regenerated". iow, God doesn't undo our regeneration.
quote:
I think there is little interpretation here.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
To do good works when, in heaven?
If not for our life on earth, when is it for?
Of course, in this verse, the good works are for our lives on earth. But, does Eph 2:10 say that these good works absolutely WILL be done? No. That's my point.
quote:
No, I think ([:]) I understand the tenses. But we must be
careful not to confuse past tense sanctification with justification.
When do you think you are justified then?
quote:
I think ( future tense sanct. = glorification.
Aristotle (or maybe Plato) once said, "I think, therefore I am". I thought you didn't trust your thinking.
quote:
Will a believer's faith translate into any REALITY in a Christian's life?
If by "reality" you are referring to fruit, that's the question. Will it? The command of Scripture is it should, but Jesus has noted that some saved believers quit believing and don't produce fruit.
quote:
Will God's regenerating work evidence itself in ANY real way?
See above.
quote:
Or can it simply be confined to what one's mind perceives?
I have no idea what you mean here.
quote:
I don't think ( ) Heb 11:1 can be understood with only the mind.
I submit this verse proves faith does not originate in mental assent.
Please submit where faith originates.
quote:
I think faith IS a reality for a Christian.
Of course it is, otherwise one cannot be a Christian.
quote:
It MUST be or our confidence lies in what our mind tells us.
I don't know what this means either.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 10:59:58 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God didn’t just choose a plan. He chose Jacob (a person) and didn’t choose Esau (a person).
Actually, Paul was quoting from Mal 1:3, which was written over 400 years after Esau and Jacob were born. Paul was using those names in reference to the nations of Israel (Jacob) and the Edomites (Esau). God's wrath was on the Edomites for their sins. They were not a chosen nation, as Israel was.
Lest you doubt this, Gen 25:23 says, "The Lord said to her (Rebekah, soon to be mother to Jacob and Esau), Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."
So, Paul wasn't speaking about the individuals Esau or Jacob, bur rather the nations that came from them. There is no individual election in this passage.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 11:48:38 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1908
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
rwe: It MUST be or our confidence lies in what our mind tells us.
FG: I don't know what this means either
if i can meddle a bit here, this is what i seen often. The typical objection to FG:
it's accused of trusting what your mind telling us, operating under the premise that our mind is as faulty, feeble and untrustworthy organ of a fallen human, unreliable as the knees and back of 90 year olds.
I do agree that mind is unreliable and can be deceived. Have you seen those optical illusion pictures? we see one thing and believe that is on the picture but in fact there is something else drawn there? (The whole modern academia operates on feelings and paradigm shift ideas, one can google it if he wants :)
Car salesmen tactics, politicians speeches and some marriage proposals try to evoke the same effect -make people believe something that is not there. That is what i tried to explain to rwe in the post HERE
While one's mind can be brainwashed and deceived, LS in return proposes just the same - trusting fruit or deeds as the evidence of salvation. Just as mind or convictions, or anything that comes from the person himself all those things can deceive.. That seem to be a common accusation that FG believers trust in their mind and LS is accused that they trust in evidence of works. My trust is in the Work of Christ, not in my feeble mind or my substandard,(by God's measurement) works.
If a man were to get alzgheimers, his mind is lost, his faith is still there , kept by the promise of God, not the abilities of his mind.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/22/2008 11:54:57 AM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 2:50:47 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
My trust is in the Work of Christ, not in my feeble mind or my substandard,(by God's measurement) works.
If a man were to get alzgheimers, his mind is lost, his faith is still there , kept by the promise of God, not the abilities of his mind.
Amen! Very well said, Del.
|
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
