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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 9:07:07 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
Freewill is a tough topic because even the term is often used in so many ways.
Let's focus on the right way. Free will is merely the freedom to believe or reject the Truth that God makes evident.
quote:
But a free will is almost a fairy tale since the will is subject to the person to which it belongs and the nature and desires of the person.
One must separate between what man wills, as in "gets done" and what man chooses, which is a completely different thing. The reformists are confused between the two. For one, they keep speaking of "libertarian free will", as if anything really thinks they are free from any influence of God. No one can be. However, freedom of choice is what God gives man when He makes evident Truth about Himself.
quote:
For example God cannot lie, he cannot sin because his nature is not so. His will is subject to his nature. So when atheist ask what if God changes his mind about being good, he cant because it is his nature it is who he is and what he is.
Hold on. Atheists by definition reject (suppress) the Truth of God's existence, so your "speculation" about atheists is irrelevant.
quote:
So we can really only say God is free to be what he is by nature, he can not go against it, he must be good. This raises the question can we do something God cant? that is go against our own nature. If God is subject to his nature what about us? If we were all subject to our first born nature how would we seek to follow a God who is Holy, in order to seek God and deny our selves we would need a new nature, heck, we would probably need to be born again.  Subject to a new nature allowing us to over come the old.
Your talk about "nature" isn't the issue. God created man, and hence his "nature" to seek Him. So, we are created for that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 9:11:03 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
McFatty &
FreeGrace,
For more clarification.
When I say work I am not speaking of the work as in good works I am speaking of effort and activity putting work when it comes to salvation.
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree?
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 9:55:25 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
More importantly, a Calvinist simply does
not believe freewill even exists,
With statements like this, from Manna, in #31448, is it any wonder that the reformists cannot, will not, and refuse to even intertain the idea that free will exists.
It clearly demonstrates what the Bible calls "refusing to listen", "not paying attention".
They have simply closed their eyes and ears to the concept of free will. So, instead of engaging in productive discussion, some can only mock and denigrade the pov. It shows they have no intention of even trying to understand the pov of others.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 9:59:00 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1859
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quote:
contend4christ:
McFatty & FreeGrace,
For more clarification.
When I say work I am not speaking of the work as in good works I am speaking of effort and activity putting work when it comes to salvation.
FG:
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree?
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
that is a very good point FG, i also wanted to ask that of RT camp !
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:07:18 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
..the reformists cannot, will not, and refuse to even intertain the idea that free will exists.
That is another most interesting topic,FG, thanks. The problem with that view as I see it - alternative to FREE is NOT FREE. Which essentially, in case of choices or decisions, means influenced, or forced, we couldnt have done otherwise. But how can someone who couldn not have done otherwise be held responsible?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:27:52 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1859
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quote:
Paul is speaking about the works of the Law - having faith in them – Israel thought that by obedience to them they would be saved. Man is never saved by HIS faith; but, by the faith of Jesus Christ. No, it is the faith of Christ, or more precisely, “Christ's faith” which justifies us.
Rom 3:22 tells us by whose faith we are made the righteousness of God: “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
If Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, how can it be by our own faith?....it can’t.
Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
K, Yes. I agree with you.
quote:
Faith is not works, there are plenty of evidence in the Bible to prove that.So if you please address the real FW view, it would be appreciated. The problem is i dont see it addressed here as of yet..
Actually, the evidence from Scripture is that faith IS a work.
One of the definitions of "work" is "any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind" another is "to cause to exist". If we accomplish our faith by excercising our mind or cause our faith to exist - then yes it is a work. If it's our faith, then it's our effort.
God commands we must have faith, it is something which must be done.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ is telling the Pharisees faith is a work they should have done, but did not. If faith is not by this work of men, then it is by the work of Christ, a gift of God.
1Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Faith is called the "good fight of faith". This is effort and work on our part.
1Thes 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your Work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
2Thes 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the Work of faith with Power:
These Thes verses are plain and consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Faith takes some effort, energy or power to accomplish.
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent."
The only way we could be justified by faith is if faith was a work, and if it was not our own work.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
A man is not justified by his own faith or his own work (in keeping the law), but by the faith of Christ. Indeed so, but we both seem to agree that "justified by faith, not works" means "not by obeying the Moses law, or doing something, but by God’s work". So faith (our mental assent) doesn’t by itself save, salvation is by God.
We cant boast because first of all, salvation is not our doing.What did we achieve on our own that is worthy of mentioning? Nothing, the result of faith - our salvation is not done by us.
Please elaborate if you have any thoughts on this.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:41:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
..the reformists cannot, will not, and refuse to even intertain the idea that free will exists.
That is another most interesting topic,FG, thanks. The problem with that view as I see it - alternative to FREE is NOT FREE. Which essentially, in case of choices or decisions, means influenced, or forced, we couldnt have done otherwise. But how can someone who couldn not have done otherwise be held responsible?
That, Del, is the "eternal question" that the reformists just cannot answer. You've sure asked it repeatedly. Only freedom of choice answers the fact that man is held accountable and responsible.
Men are condemned to hell for unbelief. Did they have an opportunity to believe? I believe that Romans 1 answers that question: God has made evident to everyone so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:56:58 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 302
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: online
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quote:
Freewill is a tough topic because even the term is often used in so many ways. But a free will is almost a fairy tale since the will is subject to the person to which it belongs and the nature and desires of the person. For example God cannot lie, he cannot sin because his nature is not so. His will is subject to his nature. So when atheist ask what if God changes his mind about being good, he cant because it is his nature it is who he is and what he is. So we can really only say God is free to be what he is by nature, he can not go against it, he must be good. This raises the question can we do something God cant? that is go against our own nature. If God is subject to his nature what about us? If we were all subject to our first born nature how would we seek to follow a God who is Holy, in order to seek God and deny our selves we would need a new nature, heck, we would probably need to be born again. Subject to a new nature allowing us to over come the old.
Excellent post. Very well put and biblically sound.
Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:57:21 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1859
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
O:
how can someone who couldn not have done otherwise be held responsible?
FG:
That, Del, is the "eternal question" that the reformists just cannot answer. You've sure asked it repeatedly. Only freedom of choice answers the fact that man is held accountable and responsible.
 Oh, i know i 've annoyed those poor peeps to death with it, and i only started the inquisition!
I hope to see it answered.
I know what you thinking, "yeah, she should have such luck", but i'll try
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:09:24 PM
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Carico
Posts: 470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
..the reformists cannot, will not, and refuse to even intertain the idea that free will exists.
That is another most interesting topic,FG, thanks. The problem with that view as I see it - alternative to FREE is NOT FREE. Which essentially, in case of choices or decisions, means influenced, or forced, we couldnt have done otherwise. But how can someone who couldn not have done otherwise be held responsible?
That, Del, is the "eternal question" that the reformists just cannot answer. You've sure asked it repeatedly. Only freedom of choice answers the fact that man is held accountable and responsible.
Men are condemned to hell for unbelief. Did they have an opportunity to believe? I believe that Romans 1 answers that question: God has made evident to everyone so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him.
We are responsible because we were born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."
So not only can we answer this, God answers it in that passage and in Romans 8:20, "For the creation was subject to frustration not by its own choice but by the will of the one who subjected it." 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:52:22 PM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/12/2007
From: Los angeles
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
contend4christ:
McFatty & FreeGrace,
For more clarification.
When I say work I am not speaking of the work as in good works I am speaking of effort and activity putting work when it comes to salvation.
FG:
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree?
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
that is a very good point FG, i also wanted to ask that of RT camp !
quote:
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree? Yes
quote:
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
If they can believe on their own, or make the choice using their own faculties apart from God or whatever they would indeed earn what was offered. But since God is the cause of belief, God has done all the work and he has earned salvation for the believer. The belief is the result of Gods power not mans choice/power.
Since you believe man uses his will power to choose, he is the one earning the results of his choice in your scenario.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 12:07:57 AM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/12/2007
From: Los angeles
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quote:
FreeGrace
You really don't get this, do you. His promise to ALL MEN is that IF they seek Him, He WILL ensure they find Him.
You keep stressing one verse like its the entire Bible, that whoever seeks him will find him. Seeking wont get you into heaven but God will, by faith which is the means through which we are saved. So when you said " His promise to ALL MEN is that IF they seek Him, He WILL ensure they find Him" Mannamuncher posted this but I don't think you really addressed it.
Luke 13:24 (King James Version)
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
So lets say they seek and find Christ, The Gate and The Way to salvation. Ohh no! Many shall seek, and many shall not enter. Clearly they are using their "free will" and they sought and have found the way and are seeking to enter, so what is the problem? They are not able to enter, maybe they don't have enough will power? And I know they are seeking, because the Bible tells me so. Salvation is a lot more about the power of God then the fickle will power and determination of mans will and choices.
To be honest, your Romans 1 doctrine might fall apart in light of other verses such as Luke:13:24.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 12:15:23 AM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
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From: Los angeles
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quote:
Carico
We are responsible because we were born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."
So not only can we answer this, God answers it in that passage and in Romans 8:20, "For the creation was subject to frustration not by its own choice but by the will of the one who subjected it."
I think the problem is the humanistic out look rather than the Jesusalistic outlook lol  . Some are looking at what has happened and see all of us after Adam as the main innocent little victims being born guilty. Do they have a problem with men other then Adam already being held responsible for what they did not do by living in a fallen world? Who do they hold responsible? So they ask why should men be responsible for what they did not do. When we should all be asking Lord why were you held responsible for my sins, when you really are innocent unlike me born a sinner? Why should you have bared my punishment on the cross? I get the feeling some believe God owes sinners something which is absolutely absurd. To this day I don't understand what manner of love it takes for Jesus to allow such an injustice to be done that day on the cross. People don't realize. Not only is our Lord the only hero, he was also the only real victim.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 12:26:16 AM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
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From: Los angeles
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quote:
quote:
So we can really only say God is free to be what he is by nature, he can not go against it, he must be good. This raises the question can we do something God cant? that is go against our own nature. If God is subject to his nature what about us? If we were all subject to our first born nature how would we seek to follow a God who is Holy, in order to seek God and deny our selves we would need a new nature, heck, we would probably need to be born again. Subject to a new nature allowing us to over come the old.
FreeGrace
Your talk about "nature" isn't the issue. God created man, and hence his "nature" to seek Him. So, we are created for that.
Our view of men and his state of being are different. You believe man is created to seek God so his "nature" is to seek him. This is ridiculous considering the Bible says we are born sinners. Our nature is not seeking God, but sinning. If your view of man were true there would be no need for the new nature. He calls men born of the flesh sinners because they not only like sin, they are inclined to sin unless they are born again.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:27:01 AM
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doublecross
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I'm not sure that your step-by-step is as clear as you present it, since there are other sayings of the Lord in between these. I agree with you that the Father must allow a man to come to Christ. That is all over the Bible. My disagreement is your notion that a man, upon hearing the Word, cannot ask for this to happen of his own will. That's where the choice comes into play.
You seem to be a very reasonable man so I would be glad to respond to you in kind. You have a point but I do believe that the application is universal. Jesus was already talking to people who are following him for various reason. In as sense they have already been going to Him. But the Lord, in this statement, insinuate that they have still have not joined Him.
It may be just one saying but it can be just a host of sayings that He had been talking about. Eitherway, the application is not far from 1 Cor. 2:14 where it says there that the natural man does not understand spiritual things because they are spiritually appraised.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:13:07 AM
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doublecross
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quote:
Do I have to exert effort for me to have faith? McFatty, look back when you were an unbeliever and ask yourself if faith in Jesus was natural to you heart. If it were left to you, would you choose Jesus?
To say that we refuse because of free will is the same as refusing the gospel because of natural tendencies. You call it free will because of man's responsibility. And if he is not able, then he is not responsible. Is that so with life also? But in the sight of God he is still reponsible whether he is capable or not. A demon possessed man can never ever have that tendency. If a man comes to him with the gospel and refuses to believe and kill the evangelist, is he still then responsible for the death and for his refusal? Is that man then not reponsilbe and should be deserving of eternal life instead of hell?
The bible says that the heart is deperately wicked (Jer 17:9). And that is saying a lot. If the bible characterizes the heart to be so how can such a thing have a tendency to understand the spiritual things of God? Does darkness understand the light?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:26:03 AM
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doublecross
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quote:
We are responsible because we were born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. Carico,
I agree.
We are all born sinners. And by that we are all unrighteous. We all know that as unrighteous beings we are not fit for eternal life.
Is that then our responsibility? Why am I guilty for just being born a sinner? I never chose to be a sinner.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:29:20 AM
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doublecross
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quote:
Please read the sources I quoted and tell my why you are not a hyper one? Again, Spurgeon and Murray believe as I believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:37:25 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, that is totally untrue. Look around your world, FG. Surely, you see those who have accepted the light/evidence God gave them in creation…..and still they die unsaved.
You continue to miss the point of the discussion. Did you actually read the quote of mine that you included in this post? Apparently not. Just recognizing that God exists doesn't mean they are saved or even going to be saved. The question is: what did they do with that evidence? Rom 1:21 presents those who "knew God, but neither honored Him nor were thankful". What does that mean? It means that even though they recognized Him as Creator, it was no big deal for them, and they didn't seek Him, as Cornelius did. So, in effect, they "suppressed" the Truth of His existence, because they should have honored Him and sought Him, as Cornelius did. As usual, FG, when you accuse others of missing your point, it is you who totally misses their point. I fully grasped the point you made; but, just as fully disagree with it.
The "point" you keep making is "what did they with that evidence". My point is many received that evidence but get no further "light". You can't have it both ways. You've said in the past if people receive/believe some "light" God will give them more; but, this is not necessarily true - that is my point - they still die unsaved.
quote:
quote:
Jesus is God Incarnate. The verse doesn't tell us that Jesus "leads us" to the Father, as you seem to assume. In fact, from Romans 1, it is God drawing man to His Son, through divine revelation.
In fact, we are told that Jesus not only “leads us” to the Father; but, aside from Him we cannot know the Father.
You continue to miss the point. Jesus "reveals" the Father isn't about leading. It is about demonstrating. Another missed theological point...what do you think "making the Father known to us" means?...certainly not simply a "demonstration" as you contend.
quote:
quote:
And, we know that the Father reveals the truth of who Christ is to us.
Only to those who are actively seeking God, like Cornelius was. You continue to demonstrate your "works" gospel. Luke 13:24 tell us that not all who "actively seek" have the Son revealed to them.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:39:58 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
According to scripture if you have done something (work) you have reason to Biblically boast.
BUt since the Bible has clearly differentiated between faith and works, you should have no concerns at all. The Bible has made it very clear that man cannot boast based on his faith.
Sure man can boast when it is HIS faith. He's somehow better than most of the people in this world...smarter, holier, more humble...take your pick...and boast away.
Rom 4:4,5 reduces your charge to nonsense. Since all were created to seek God, there is no room for boasting for those who do. Seems you miss the point of yet another post. Read again to the point of your last two sentences. You will very quickly find no mention was made of "seeking".
quote:
But, how can one who is comfortable with puppet theology even understand that someone has the freedom to do what his Creator created him to do? Rather, how can a freewiller who is comfortable having more sovereignty than God even understand the very declaration of God when He says HE elects - and elects not based on a freewiller's faith?
quote:
quote:
Rather, it is clear from Scripture that believing or having faith is a work. There are any number of verses which indicate precisely this.
So, you are pitting "your" verses against Rom 4:4,5?
Nope, not a matter of "pitting" verses but of comparing scripture with scripture.
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quote:
We are not saved by OUR work of faith; but, we are saved by Christ's work of faith.
Only those who believe in His work. Nope, that makes salvation by YOUR work of believing.
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quote:
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent."
Jesus was addressing a group of Jews who were works salvation oriented. Their question was what must we do to be saved, even though they used the word "work". Jesus' answer was the same as Paul's to the jailer. Believe on Him, the Lord Jesus Christ. This verse in no way teaches that faith is a work. Of course it does, FG. Why not simply believe what it so obviously says?...instead of bringing your theological suppositions to bear so heavily upon the passage?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:41:23 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
This is turning in circles now. Faith and works are separate in the Bible, and therefore must be separate in our lives. "tool" implies work, so it's not the best analogy since faith and works are separate. Plus, "works" are plainly (to me) visible acts. Read James. Actually, works are not always visible. Praying is not always visible, loving is not always visible, obeying God is not always visible and our faith is not visible - still, nonetheless, it is a work.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
These are the fruits or "works'"of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:52:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
McFatty &
FreeGrace,
For more clarification.
When I say work I am not speaking of the work as in good works I am speaking of effort and activity putting work when it comes to salvation.
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree?
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
According to the freewill position, it most definitely earns you salvation. You don't like to use the word "earn", nonetheless, if it's your belief that gets you saved you have EARNED it.
quote:
So, instead of engaging in productive discussion, some can only mock and denigrade the pov. LOL....oops, we got the pot calling the kettle here.............
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:07:23 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
..the reformists cannot, will not, and refuse to even intertain the idea that free will exists.
That is another most interesting topic,FG, thanks. The problem with that view as I see it - alternative to FREE is NOT FREE. Which essentially, in case of choices or decisions, means influenced, or forced, we couldnt have done otherwise. But how can someone who couldn not have done otherwise be held responsible? The Bible is clear that the Father ordained the death of Jesus Christ "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"(Acts 2:23) yet, He still holds the men that killed Him responsible.
Since God ordained it, could Judas have actually done differently? No...that's not possible....still, it is clear from Scripture God holds him and the others responsible for their sin.
Why do you think it would be any different before and after the Cross?
Apparently, God considers the freewill of man as He also ordains what will happen. God is able to do this. How does He manage it?...no one knows - "who can know the mind of God"; but, He clearly says He does.
Now, man may not like this, it may make him feel like a "puppet"; but, to deny it, is simply to deny the Word of God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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