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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:58:56 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7897
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Your talk about "nature" isn't the issue. God created man, and hence his "nature" to seek Him. So, we are created for that.
Another poor analogy Free... 
My nature sleeps and eats
My nature is unrighteous and unholy
My nature sins
Do you believe that God created the human race to seek Him or not?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:08:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7897
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
And right now my heart tells me God takes no pleasure in any man's condemnation.
Who said God does ? So, why say it ?
Oh I think there is Scripture somewhere that says it, Can't bring it to mind right now. Help, FG?
My pleasure, rw.
Ezek 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anhyone who dies", declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Clearly a warning for people to repent, demonstrating that repenting that repentance comes from man.
Ezek 33:11 "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way (REPENT) and live."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:20:26 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
 Oh, i know i 've annoyed those poor peeps to death with it, and i only started the inquisition!
I hope to see it answered.
I know what you thinking, "yeah, she should have such luck", but i'll try
We love you, it's those other guys-
That is easy- i love all here, C and A for we all are christian family.
But we know that.. " if you love only those who loves you...what good is that.. worldly people do the same" ..
we all should strive to learn to love all the brothers ,even those who disagree with
I know how hard that is - i confess, some Catholics are so legalistic, so nasty to God and people, so resemling the judaistic ilk that i left, that deep in my heart I fight the feelings of despising them and question their salvation. Oy vey iz mir!
There is nothing wrong with question's another persons salvation if they have the incorrect doctrine pertaining to salvation ie Catholics.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:29:47 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2390
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Carico:
We are responsible because we were born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."
FG:
interesting that you would pick a verse that supports the pov that everyone in humanity can be shown mercy, not just the lucky few. The reformed pov is that the "non-elect" or rebrobate was created for hell, and therefore, has no ability to believe or seek God.
Dear Carico and Contend,
That is what i was talking about , what FG said- it would be unfair to hold some responsible for not believing.
Does your position mean that some people wont even be held responsible for that ? God will not , so to speak ,charge those unsaved with notr believing, becasue they never had a chance to, but just charge them with sin?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:48:07 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2390
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good.
no,as MCF already said this is not the position of A.
Actually, i am sure nobody ,except religionists, think that way. Precisely becasue we know that our nature is bad and sinful that is when we do realise we need Gods love.
it sort of sounds like:
My healthy body wants painful penicillin shots becasue my body is so healthy and strong.Sick body needs/realises the need for shots. Sick nature needs God. Show me the one who thinks his nature is good i show you a yet-to-be-converted unbeliever.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:49:38 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
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One more thing. OK, Jesus came for the Jews first, correct? He shared with them first and they rejected Him. So you(Calvinist) are saying that Christ came for the Jews first, but willed them to reject him? That just doesn't make sense.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:55:55 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
One more thing. OK, Jesus came for the Jews first, correct? He shared with them first and they rejected Him. So you(Calvinist) are saying that Christ came for the Jews first, but willed them to reject him? That just doesn't make sense.
Do you think Christ was surprised by their rejection?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 4:58:39 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Your talk about "nature" isn't the issue. God created man, and hence his "nature" to seek Him. So, we are created for that.
Another poor analogy Free...
My nature sleeps and eats
My nature is unrighteous and unholy
My nature sins
Do you believe that God created the human race to seek Him or not?
Good point Freegrace, I agree with you here. It is in man to worship something. I mean just look around people even worship trees.... alligators, a mountain, etc etc. So to say that it is not in man to worship a higher power is just absurd.
Romans 1:18-31 explains that. Man knows that God exists through what has been made but suppresses that truth because of his wickedness. So God gave us over to depraved minds to do what ought not to be done as verse 24 explains That means that God is showing his wrath on mankind by allowing Satan to deceive us and only the power of the holy Spirit can break the bonds of Satan. No human being has power over Satan. Only God has power over Satan.
And that's what non-reformists don't understand. According to their claims, we don't need the power of the Holy Spirit for anything. We can just will ourselves to have power over Satan. That's called secular humanism, not Christianity. Secular humanists don't believe in the power of God either.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:04:46 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Carico:
We are responsible because we were born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."
FG:
interesting that you would pick a verse that supports the pov that everyone in humanity can be shown mercy, not just the lucky few. The reformed pov is that the "non-elect" or rebrobate was created for hell, and therefore, has no ability to believe or seek God.
Dear Carico and Contend,
That is what i was talking about , what FG said- it would be unfair to hold some responsible for not believing.
Does your position mean that some people wont even be held responsible for that ? God will not , so to speak ,charge those unsaved with notr believing, becasue they never had a chance to, but just charge them with sin?
Who said it would be unfair to hold people responsible for unbelieving?  God certainly didn't say that. In fact in Romans 9:11-25, particularly verses 18-20 he explains that God has the right to create some for noble purposes and others for common use. He then explains why he prepares some for destruction and others for glory in verses 20-25.
So read the parable of the worker in Matthew 20 to see that what humans think is fair or not fair is the opposite of what God thinks is fair. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:05:43 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Your talk about "nature" isn't the issue. God created man, and hence his "nature" to seek Him. So, we are created for that.
Another poor analogy Free...
My nature sleeps and eats
My nature is unrighteous and unholy
My nature sins
Do you believe that God created the human race to seek Him or not?
Good point Freegrace, I agree with you here. It is in man to worship something. I mean just look around people even worship trees.... alligators, a mountain, etc etc. So to say that it is not in man to worship a higher power is just absurd.
Romans 1:18-20 explains that. Man knows that God exists through what ha been made but suppresses that truth because of his wickedness. So God gave us over to depraved minds to do what ought not to be done. That means that God is showing his wrath on mankind by allowing Satan to deceive us and only the power of the holy Spirit can break the bonds of Satan. No human being has power over Satan. Only God has power over Satan.
And that's what non-reformists don't understand. According to their claims, we don't need the power of the Holy Spirit for anything. We can just will ourselves to have power over Satan. That's called secular humanism, not Christianity. Secular humanists don't believe in the power of God either.
YOu are putting words in our mouths that we are not saying. I am not saying we have power over Satan. The only thing that has power in us is the Holy Spirit. To say that I have power to do anything is totally not what I am saying. Until we are convicted by the Holy Spirit we will not seek to know the true God. But where I differ from you is that He doesn't force salvation on anyone much less just a certain few people. I mean if he forces people to either chose or reject him, then that is not really choosing or rejecting him. So that would make the word of God incorrect. To reject something it has to be offered. To chose something it has to be offered with the option to reject it. So to say we are not Christians because we do not believe that God made us into some kind of robots really makes me upset. I by no means believe we have to power to merit salvation only Christ can do that. But I do believe we have the option of Repenting or not. You need to actually read what we are typing because with what you said you obviously haven't.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:06:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7897
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Romans 1:18-31 explains that. Man knows that God exists through what has been made but suppresses that truth because of his wickedness.
The context of what is suppressed in Rom 1:18-21 is the Truth that God has made evident to everyone.
quote:
So God gave us over to depraved minds to do what ought not to be done as verse 24 explains That means that God is showing his wrath on mankind by allowing Satan to deceive us and only the power of the holy Spirit can break the bonds of Satan. No human being has power over Satan. Only God has power over Satan.
And that's what non-reformists don't understand.
You are quite wrong. In fact, no one on this thread would argue that they have any power over Satan. Do you really know people who believe that? No one here does. You need to learn what we believe before you make such ill informed statements.
quote:
According to their claims, we don't need the power of the Holy Spirit for anything. We can just will ourselves to have power over Satan. That's called secular humanism, not Christianity. Secular humanists don't believe in the power of God either.
Like I said, you need to learn what we believe before you make such ill informed statements.
It appears you have no idea what we believe, but only a grossly mmisrepresentation of what you think we believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:06:46 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
One more thing. OK, Jesus came for the Jews first, correct? He shared with them first and they rejected Him. So you(Calvinist) are saying that Christ came for the Jews first, but willed them to reject him? That just doesn't make sense.
Do you think Christ was surprised by their rejection?
Bob
No because He is all knowing. Whats your point?
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:08:29 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7897
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Dear Carico and Contend,
That is what i was talking about , what FG said- it would be unfair to hold some responsible for not believing.
Does your position mean that some people wont even be held responsible for that ? God will not , so to speak ,charge those unsaved with notr believing, becasue they never had a chance to, but just charge them with sin?
Who said it would be unfair to hold people responsible for unbelieving?
That isn't the question now, is it. The question dealt with the "inability" to believe, and being held accountable for that inability. Can you address that please?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:09:42 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good.
no,as MCF already said this is not the position of A.
Actually, i am sure nobody ,except religionists, think that way. Precisely becasue we know that our nature is bad and sinful that is when we do realise we need Gods love.
it sort of sounds like:
My healthy body wants painful penicillin shots becasue my body is so healthy and strong.Sick body needs/realises the need for shots. Sick nature needs God. Show me the one who thinks his nature is good i show you a yet-to-be-converted unbeliever.
Exactly. So why would anyone reject God and heaven and choose hell if he knows for sure that God and hell exist? No one. That means that as 2 Corinthians 4:4 explains, "for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." So unbelievers are not freely choosing hell. They are being deceived by Satan that God and hell don't exist. Only the power of the holy Spirit can open our eyes, minds and hearts to the truth and give us knowledge of God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Eph. 2:8-9 explain. Thus, no free will. We are either being blinded by Satan or given the light by the Holy Spirit. End of story.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:13:04 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:25:16 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
One more thing. OK, Jesus came for the Jews first, correct? He shared with them first and they rejected Him. So you(Calvinist) are saying that Christ came for the Jews first, but willed them to reject him? That just doesn't make sense.
Do you think Christ was surprised by their rejection?
Bob
Does it matter?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:26:53 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good.
no,as MCF already said this is not the position of A.
Actually, i am sure nobody ,except religionists, think that way. Precisely becasue we know that our nature is bad and sinful that is when we do realise we need Gods love.
it sort of sounds like:
My healthy body wants painful penicillin shots becasue my body is so healthy and strong.Sick body needs/realises the need for shots. Sick nature needs God. Show me the one who thinks his nature is good i show you a yet-to-be-converted unbeliever.
Exactly. So why would anyone reject God and heaven and choose hell if he knows for sure that God and hell exist? No one. That means that as 2 Corinthians 4:4 explains, "for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." So unbelievers are not freely choosing hell. They are being deceived by Satan that God and hell don't exist. Only the power of the holy Spirit can open our eyes, minds and hearts to the truth and give us knowledge of God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Eph. 2:8-9 explain. Thus, no free will. We are either being blinded by Satan or given the light by the Holy Spirit. End of story.
The witness of one saint is much more powerful than the concealment of the enemy.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:29:14 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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It matters only in the understanding...Christ/God didn’t will the Israelites to reject Him. That’s a condition that has enveloped mankind from birth. Since Adam all men have rejected God by nature and you know that without some catalyst all men are blind to the things of God. Sure God is evident in nature but natural man will always find an excuse other then God. If they do seek God they will do it in their fashion…not the way prescribed by God.
Christ presented Himself to all and all clearly have the opportunity to accept Him but the reality of the fact is that only a few have the veil removed that allows them to fully understand who Christ is and only those are granted the faith to accept. Even with this drawing they still have to hear the gospel and to accept in their hearts.
This statement will have no effect on anyones outlook but I feel that I have to make the effort.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:29:31 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
I don't know why non-reformists try so hard to resist giving the credit to God's power for transforming them instead of giving credit to their own free will for their faith. I, for one, am so thankful that my life is in God's hands not my own, that I can't understand why some people want it to be the other way around. 
God's power is to credit, Carico. God's mercy, which He promised to everyone, is one of the most incredible things I've ever fathomed. You ask why non-reformists "try so hard to resist giving credit to God's power". I ask why reformists want to put a limit or a cap on God's infinite mercy.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:31:05 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good.
no,as MCF already said this is not the position of A.
Actually, i am sure nobody ,except religionists, think that way. Precisely becasue we know that our nature is bad and sinful that is when we do realise we need Gods love.
it sort of sounds like:
My healthy body wants painful penicillin shots becasue my body is so healthy and strong.Sick body needs/realises the need for shots. Sick nature needs God. Show me the one who thinks his nature is good i show you a yet-to-be-converted unbeliever.
Exactly. So why would anyone reject God and heaven and choose hell if he knows for sure that God and hell exist? No one. That means that as 2 Corinthians 4:4 explains, "for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." So unbelievers are not freely choosing hell. They are being deceived by Satan that God and hell don't exist. Only the power of the holy Spirit can open our eyes, minds and hearts to the truth and give us knowledge of God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Eph. 2:8-9 explain. Thus, no free will. We are either being blinded by Satan or given the light by the Holy Spirit. End of story.
The witness of one saint is much more powerful than the concealment of the enemy.
So do you think that Jesus was not a good witness since he was killed by those who didn't believe him? 
Sorry friend, but again, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." That means that if God isn't drawing a person, then wild horses can;t make that person believe. That's because only the Holy Spirit has victory over Satan, not mankind. If people don't believe Jesus, they're certainly not going to believe any other saint.
Non-reformists do not understand that God is the one who does the choosing, not men themselves. He creates some for nobles purposes and some for common use. So we wouldn't even be arguing here if they believed the bible on this issue.
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