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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2006 11:45:03 PM
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Saxsoon
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It is sad when I hear my friends talk. They are I guess you could say, Chronic Masturbaters, and it disgusts me. I guess I should say, that I myself have never done so, and I hope that it is a good thing that I won't.
_____________________________
He Died So That I Could Live
Why Not Pay It Back And Follow In His Word
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2006 4:09:51 PM
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DustBuster
Posts: 21
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saxsoon
It is sad when I hear my friends talk. They are I guess you could say, Chronic Masturbaters, and it disgusts me. I guess I should say, that I myself have never done so, and I hope that it is a good thing that I won't.
You shouldn't look down upon your friends. You are a sinner just as they are. It is just that the sins you struggle with are not the same as theirs. Instead of pride and disgust, ask God to give you a broken heart to feel the same pain that they do which leads them to such sin.
I have made it out of this, but it is not because I am a better person than any other. It was not me who made it through, but the power of God, and I only hope that in some way I can be a witness to others of what is possible through God's grace.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2006 9:46:26 PM
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Saxsoon
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That is not what I meant, but I am sure it did sound like that. I know I am a sinner too, I am just saying that the conversations tend to take on a very "different" matter. I know that my sins are not the same, and all are the same to God. Sorry for not clarifying
_____________________________
He Died So That I Could Live
Why Not Pay It Back And Follow In His Word
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2006 10:25:04 PM
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alvinprsd
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Hi All,
I just signed up, to make a point, not just specific to this thread but to any discussion regarding research. When someone decides to do research on a subject they usually have, in mind, the outcome "they" are hoping to prove. Well how do we know that the results/outcome are truly what they found, and not what they had "wanted" to be.
If I want to do research on on cancer, and say that I think candy canes will reduce the amount of people who get cancer, I can write up my research paper and say, "candy canes don't reduce", which will then make me look like a fool in the cancer research society, or I can say, "candy canes 'do' reduce cancer", which would make me look good in the cancer society.
So even when we look at research we need to take the results with a grain of salt. The only reliable source for research, or anything, for that matter, is the Bible.
The way I see it, if our bodies needed to release seminal fluid to reduce cancer, God would have provided a way that would not require us to possibly put ourselves at risk of sinning (lusting, coveting, etc.)
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2006 12:51:30 AM
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DustBuster
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Even if masturbation does reduce the risk of cancer, is that an excuse enough in itself? One can choose to accept the risk and deal with the consequences as they arise.
I'm aware of the possibility of a risk, and it does concern me, but not as much as letting go of a habit that affected my relationship with God and those around me. I don't know if God has provided another way out of that risk, but even if He hasn't, I'm okay with that.
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[Deleted] - 10/4/2006 1:49:44 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2006 9:18:39 PM
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Colossians
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SETTING THE NORMAL SEXUAL CHRISTIAN MAN FREE OF GUILT CAUSED BY LEGALISTIC FUNDAMENTALISTS LACKING IN SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE
The guilt problem in Christian men associated with masturbaton is a problem forced by legalism, and specifically the instance of legalism which manifests itself as the erroneous teaching that is "sins of the mind".
True Christian men who masturbate (I am not necessarily one of them) will agree that, the things they think about as they masturbate, are things which, when they are masturbating, they believe are wrong to do in actuality, and therefore things they would never do in actuality.
It is what is done in actuality, that is sin, not what is done in the mind. For we are not minds walking around, but we are spirits in bodies.
Now....if I agree with the thing my mind is imagining (if I have an actual desire of the will to go and do this thing in actuality, and will therefore probably attempt to do so), then this is sin. But it is not sin if one imagines things which he definitely agrees are wrong to do in actuality.
So masturbation is indeed one form of the escape God said He would provide from temptation: it removes the possibility of the act from actually occurring, into a virtual realm of imagination, which results in a release from the temptation, without the act actually occurring.
So the issue is the will (what is my will?) and not the imagination, and is best explained by examples:
Example 1:
A married man is tempted by another woman. He is a Christian and agrees it is wrong to be unfaithful to his wife. And this is because he loves his wife, and loves God.
But his hormones are racing every time this woman tempts him, and he is having problems with his wife at home.
The man has received enough wisdom to know how to maneuvre his body so that it 'thinks' it gets what it wants without getting what it wants at all: he masturbates about the woman for the specific purpose of relieving any possibility of actually being unfaithful to his wife.
He has not sinned, but has walked in love toward God and his wife. He has used wisdom to a Godly result, and is thankful to the Lord for keeping him from sin, thankful that he can now concentrate on his wife and family without impediment.
Example 2:
A second married Christian man, is experiencing the same thing as the one we have just mentioned. However this Christian man is not as strong in the Lord, and so feels that if he adopted the first man's 'method', it would seem too close to doing the wrong thing in actuality, or that it might push him over the edge into doing it or actively desiring it with his will.
But the Lord loves this man just as much as the first, and so has given him an escape plan also:
When the man is tempted by the other woman, he relieves such temptation by inventing an imaginary scenario with an imaginary woman, and so tricks his body into relief via masturbation, using a totally fictitious scenario. (It will most likely be a scenario in which he imagines himself unmarried.)
He has not sinned, but has walked in love toward God and his wife. He has used wisdom to a Godly result, and is thankful to the Lord for keeping him from sin, thankful that he can now concentrate on his wife and family without impediment.
Example 3:
A third married Christian man is in the same position as the other two above.
He uses another method: he deliberately invents a sexy scenario in his mind which involves his wife and himself, perhaps a very fantastical scenario, so that it is potent enough to relieve him, through masturbation, of the temptation of the other woman.
He has not sinned, but has walked in love toward God and his wife. He has used wisdom to a Godly result, and is thankful to the Lord for keeping him from sin, thankful that he can now concentrate on his wife and family without impediment.
Example 4:
A fourth married Christian man alternates between the methods of the first three men above, as he feels free in the Lord to do so. One time he might not have the liberty to use method one, and so opt for method 2 or 3. Other times he might be quite free to use method one.
He has not sinned, but has walked in love toward God and his wife. He has used wisdom to a Godly result, and is thankful to the Lord for keeping him from sin, thankful that he can now concentrate on his wife and family without impediment.
Example 5:
A fifth married Christian man, has a particular faith and relationship with the Lord, such that he can talk to the Lord in such a way that the immediate temptation vanishes along with the desire of the flesh. This is a rarer situation, and might be likened to the miraculous intervention of the Lord in the life of a heroin addict, so that the desire to reinject oneself is removed.
Many Christians think this is the 'best' position. But just as, although it is better to not get married but remain single, God has not gifted every man with the gift of singleness, so too God does not work in the lives of all Christian men so that they are like this one of Example 5. That is, we each have a different measure of grace, and a different direction in which the grace we have each received leads us.
Example 6:
Another married man is tempted by another woman. He doesn't understand the true meaning of love, and eventually starts to desire this other woman. He has no plans to leave his wife, but nonetheless actively and willingly desires this other woman at the expense of thoughts of love toward his wife. He agrees in his heart and with his will that, if he had the opportunity, it would be good to be with her rather than with his wife.
He masturbates with this in mind, and if it wasn't so difficult to leave his wife and family and extended family, he would do so for her.
The man has sinned. And he has sinned regardless of masturbation. His heart is not dedicated only to his wife, and he is serving himself rather than his wife and God.
Summary of examples:
Examples 1-5 reveal men who do not lust, but who experience the lust of the flesh, and who, in wisdom, channel such lust into a Godly result, recognising that the lust in the flesh itself cannot be satisfied except by the flesh, but also knowing that to give the flesh the actual thing it desires, is to transgress love, and so sin.
In line with this we understand that Wisdom is best defined as "that which takes spiritual knoweldge and applies it with Godly result".
Example 6 reveals a man who lusts with his eye after the other woman. This is what Jesus spoke about with regard to adultery.
Overall summary
I began this post by pointing out that the issue is born of legalism: “whenever there is PLEASURE!! it is WRONG!!”
But God designed our bodies for pleasure: such pleasure is in fact the chief pointer to the truth of the gospel, specifically, that we were made to have life to the full, and not to grovel in servitude to a God who likes to dangle the carrot in front of a poor donkey without teeth.
But the pleasure God wants us to have is that which is dedicated to loving one another as Christ loved the church. A pleasure which serves love.
The desire for sexual pleasure that God has programmed in our bodies, is not sinful: it is anatomical (belonging to our anatomy). When we go to the toilet and relieve ourselves of waste, this also creates a pleasure. When we eat after we are hungry, this also creates a pleasure. When we breathe after holding our breath, this also creates a pleasure. None of these are sin.
But the belly is not for meats, but meats for the belly. And the body is not for sexual pleasure, but sexual pleasure for the body.
The pleasure of eating is sanctified when it is subjugated to the will of God, so that I ‘rightly divide my eating’: when my eating is for the body rather than my body for my eating.
And the pleasure of sex is sanctified in marriage, for then sex is for the one-flesh husband-wife body, and is not removed so that it serves just one of the two partners at the expense of the other.
So love is the goal, and wisdom the method to get there.
And the motive of love sanctifies action.
< Message edited by Colossians -- 10/15/2006 6:10:34 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2006 7:30:31 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3792
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Many of the research says that a guy needs to ejaculate "26 times a month" in order to see signifcant reduction in risk for prostate cancer. My understanding is that this frequency only applies to males in their late teens thru their 20s. (highest levels of testosterone) After 30 there is little effect.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2006 8:21:11 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3792
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
The guilt problem in Christian men associated with masturbaton is a problem forced by legalism, and specifically the instance of legalism which manifests itself as the erroneous teaching that is "sins of the mind".... It is what is done in actuality, that is sin, not what is done in the mind. For we are not minds walking around, but we are spirits in bodies.
This is a dangerous viewpoint. It is so close to classic gnosticism that it gives me the creeps. Gnostic thought came from a classical Greek philosophy, and states that the mind/soul/spirit is what is holy and the body is just a housing for it and is unredeemably corrupt. Ultimately it leads to denying the incarnation because a Holy God could never dwell in sinful flesh.
I am firmly in the pro-M crowd, but I cannot endorse your argument. While I completely agree that our understanding of "sins of the mind" may be flawed, I do not believe that it is completely wrong. The NT says much about where we are to keep our thought life. It even says that if something is completely right but we think it is sin then to us it is sin.
While the whole "lust in the heart" issue at the heart of your post seems to go way past what would have been understood by observant first century Jews in Gallillee, it cannot be completely discounted. Of your various scenarios, the only ones that I could endorse are 3 and 5. I agree that God does not grace everyone to live in 5.
However, to me the best one is to wait until you are home and have your dear wife give you that relief.
You have not at all addressed the problem of a young man who is not yet married. While we know that "it is better to marry than to burn," what does a guy do that has another decade before he is able to marry? This question is why I am pro-M. But I do believe it is vital that his thoughts be closely controlled. Self controll is biblically important and begins in the mind.
Pro 23:7a for as a man thinks in his heart, so he is.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.”
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth.
2Ti 3:8 Even as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so do these also oppose the truth; men corrupted in mind, who concerning the faith, are rejected.
I hope these verses reflect the importance of what is done with our thought life.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2006 8:29:02 AM
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DustBuster
Posts: 21
Joined: 10/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Colossians
SETTING THE NORMAL SEXUAL CHRISTIAN MAN FREE OF GUILT CAUSED BY LEGALISTIC FUNDAMENTALISTS LACKING IN SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE
The guilt problem in Christian men associated with masturbaton is a problem forced by legalism, and specifically the instance of legalism which manifests itself as the erroneous teaching that is "sins of the mind".
True Christian men who masturbate (I am not necessarily one of them) will agree that, the things they think about as they masturbate, are things which, when they are masturbating, they believe are wrong to do in actuality, and therefore things they would never do in actuality.
It is what is done in actuality, that is sin, not what is done in the mind. For we are not minds walking around, but we are spirits in bodies.
I am very concerned about your post. You have a lot of well-thought out ideas, but where is their basis in God's Word. If legalism is your concern, than you should be able to support your views with New Testament scripture.
Temptation is when consideration of sinful acts enter your mind. Lust, a sin, is when a person willingly decides, although not to physically act out the sin, but to actively feed their imagination with thoughts of a sin.
If you simply feel attracted to somebody that's not your spouse, that's temptation. When you indulge it with using thoughts of her to gain sexual satisfaction, that's lust, because that satisfaction is meant to only come from your spouse. If that desire wasn't, than what is the point behind waiting for marriage? You need to look at the HEART behind the reason for waiting, and not stop at the rule itself, looking for how far you can go without breaking it.
In your attempt to avoid legalism, you ended up falling directly into the trappings of legalism. Go back to your scripture. Read what Jesus tells us about sin, and see if your thoughts match up.
Remember, if you are only angry at your brother, you have already committed murder in your heart. This was Jesus talking about the shortcomings of legalism. Sin isn't rooted in your outward actions. It's rooted in your heart. If you only deal with the outward actions, you're addressing the symptoms, but doing nothing to fight the disease. You're basically Aspirin for a headache.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2006 3:49:04 AM
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Colossians
Posts: 22
Joined: 9/30/2006
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DaveW,
This is a dangerous viewpoint.
No it is safe, and wise. And promotes Christ.
It is so close to classic gnosticism that it gives me the creeps. Gnostic thought came from a classical Greek philosophy, and states that the mind/soul/spirit is what is holy and the body is just a housing for it and is unredeemably corrupt. Ultimately it leads to denying the incarnation because a Holy God could never dwell in sinful flesh.
Nobody said the flesh was sinful.
As to your gnosticism idea, your position is gnostic, for it deems the imagination sinful even when the will is not aligned with it. Thus you promote the sins-of-the-mind idea.
Tell us, if you entertain yourself when resting one afternoon by imagining you are a bank robber, have you sinned?
I am firmly in the pro-M crowd, but I cannot endorse your argument.
Goodness me. You masturbate, think it is not sinful, and disagree with me because I say it is not sinful.
I am at a loss as to how you can come up with reasoning which tells you it is not sinful, and which at the same time doesn’t include or overlap any of my examples.
While I completely agree that our understanding of "sins of the mind" may be flawed, I do not believe that it is completely wrong. The NT says much about where we are to keep our thought life. It even says that if something is completely right but we think it is sin then to us it is sin.
Here you show you simply have not read my post properly. Get back to me after you put in a few hard yards.
Dustbuster,
Lust, a sin, is when a person willingly decides, although not to physically act out the sin, but to actively feed their imagination with thoughts of a sin.
No you are simply using circular reasoning. All you are doing is saying that masturbation is sin, and if one masturbates, one sins.
I have shown you that we are not minds, but spirits with bodies, and sin is a matter of the will and what actually occurs, not just a matter of what is imagined.
If you simply feel attracted to somebody that's not your spouse, that's temptation. When you indulge it with using thoughts of her to gain sexual satisfaction, that's lust, because that satisfaction is meant to only come from your spouse.
I have explained the various inflections in my post. Your knee flying up in the air unfortunately obscured your reading of it.
In your attempt to avoid legalism, you ended up falling directly into the trappings of legalism. Go back to your scripture. Read what Jesus tells us about sin, and see if your thoughts match up.
Eh….so you’re the one who’s sinning, and I’m the legalist.
And I’m the one who says it is not sin, and I’m the legalist.
And you’re the one who wants to perfect the flesh, and you’re not a legalist.
What I have taught is 100% correct. What you believe is simply legalism, whether you know it or not.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that you have problems with this area, and that if your spouse started denying you in the bedroom, you would be very quickly relieving yourself on your own, and then running off to God every few days to say “sorry, I won’t do it again”.
One of the greatest tools Satan has it man’s desire to feel guilty. He hardly needs to condemn at all, for man does it all on his ownsome just nicely.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2006 8:54:21 AM
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DustBuster
Posts: 21
Joined: 10/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Colossians
What I have taught is 100% correct. What you believe is simply legalism, whether you know it or not.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that you have problems with this area, and that if your spouse started denying you in the bedroom, you would be very quickly relieving yourself on your own, and then running off to God every few days to say “sorry, I won’t do it again”.
You're definitely on the money about one thing. I DO have problems in this area. And my biggest mistake was denying that it was a problem. For more than ten years, I was involved in Internet pornography and masturbation, and I convinced myself that it was an acceptable way of dealing with my urges until I found my spouse.
I was wrong. It wasn't because of any specific verse about spilling seed, etc. that convicted me. It was my heart. I was being selfish and impatient. God may or may not have a spouse planned for me, and I have no idea when she's going to show up, and I didn't want to wait. So I compromised on what I really wanted for what I wanted right now.
But in January of this year, I turned it over to God and gave it up. And I talk about this not to boast, but only as an encouragement to others who struggle, so that they may know that God has the power to deliver us men from this sin, so that we may become one flesh with our wives and no other.
If I ever do get married, and I am denied sex, I don't know how I'm going to deal with it, but I will trust that God will help me through, and that I won't need to "help myself" with masturbation in the meantime, just as I don't need to do so now, while I'm waiting for my wife to be revealed to me.
I don't have a wife yet, but I love her and no other woman as my spouse. I love her so much, that I don't want my sexual needs to be fulfilled by any other woman before her. Not through physical contact, through images, or through a deliberate feedinf of my imagination. It's not a sacrifice. It's painful and difficult at times, but it's not a sacrifice. I let this go as a voluntary expression of love to God and my future wife. They are all the satisfaction I will ever need.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2006 2:39:20 AM
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Anst
Posts: 17
Joined: 7/23/2006
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I heartily agree with "Dustbuster" and commend him for his efforts as he is definitely not alone. I myself am trying to remain faithful to God and my future wife by not giving in to the temptation to masturbate, ie the "lusts of the flesh" (1 John 2:16) and if I never find a spouse well at least my conscience will be clear before God. It is my humble opinion that God created sex to be enjoyed between a husband and wife within the confines of marriage alone. Remember he created Eve for Adam (not Adam and Steve or Amanda and Eve) and this was after he said that "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him" (Genesis 2:18). I take comfort reading God's word and believe that if he described his original creation as "very good" and this would include marriage and sex then it is God's purpose that every man have his wife and every woman have her husband and they find sexual fulfillment with each other and nobody (or nothing) else. But, alas we don't live in God's world right now do we and so we pray that Christ returns to usher in the "times of restitution" and "times of refreshing" (Acts 3:19-21).
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2006 3:48:18 PM
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AbsoluteGil
Posts: 10
Joined: 5/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Colossians
DaveW,
This is a dangerous viewpoint.
No it is safe, and wise. And promotes Christ.
It is so close to classic gnosticism that it gives me the creeps. Gnostic thought came from a classical Greek philosophy, and states that the mind/soul/spirit is what is holy and the body is just a housing for it and is unredeemably corrupt. Ultimately it leads to denying the incarnation because a Holy God could never dwell in sinful flesh.
Nobody said the flesh was sinful.
As to your gnosticism idea, your position is gnostic, for it deems the imagination sinful even when the will is not aligned with it. Thus you promote the sins-of-the-mind idea.
Tell us, if you entertain yourself when resting one afternoon by imagining you are a bank robber, have you sinned?
I am firmly in the pro-M crowd, but I cannot endorse your argument.
Goodness me. You masturbate, think it is not sinful, and disagree with me because I say it is not sinful.
I am at a loss as to how you can come up with reasoning which tells you it is not sinful, and which at the same time doesn’t include or overlap any of my examples.
While I completely agree that our understanding of "sins of the mind" may be flawed, I do not believe that it is completely wrong. The NT says much about where we are to keep our thought life. It even says that if something is completely right but we think it is sin then to us it is sin.
Here you show you simply have not read my post properly. Get back to me after you put in a few hard yards.
Dustbuster,
Lust, a sin, is when a person willingly decides, although not to physically act out the sin, but to actively feed their imagination with thoughts of a sin.
No you are simply using circular reasoning. All you are doing is saying that masturbation is sin, and if one masturbates, one sins.
I have shown you that we are not minds, but spirits with bodies, and sin is a matter of the will and what actually occurs, not just a matter of what is imagined.
If you simply feel attracted to somebody that's not your spouse, that's temptation. When you indulge it with using thoughts of her to gain sexual satisfaction, that's lust, because that satisfaction is meant to only come from your spouse.
I have explained the various inflections in my post. Your knee flying up in the air unfortunately obscured your reading of it.
In your attempt to avoid legalism, you ended up falling directly into the trappings of legalism. Go back to your scripture. Read what Jesus tells us about sin, and see if your thoughts match up.
Eh….so you’re the one who’s sinning, and I’m the legalist.
And I’m the one who says it is not sin, and I’m the legalist.
And you’re the one who wants to perfect the flesh, and you’re not a legalist.
What I have taught is 100% correct. What you believe is simply legalism, whether you know it or not.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that you have problems with this area, and that if your spouse started denying you in the bedroom, you would be very quickly relieving yourself on your own, and then running off to God every few days to say “sorry, I won’t do it again”.
One of the greatest tools Satan has it man’s desire to feel guilty. He hardly needs to condemn at all, for man does it all on his ownsome just nicely.
So how do you then compare your "teachings" to those of Christ when he said, If you so look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery?
Personally I see no sin in the act itself, but I can easily see, because I've been there, the downward spiral these things can lead to. That is enough for me for it to be a sin for myself. It had become an idol and god in my mind and life and totally controlled me, thankfully God pulled me from the quagmire and I don't want to go back, even though my physical needs may disagree. I have faith in Him to supernaturally keep me from those base desires that so easily led me from Him in the first place.
< Message edited by AbsoluteGil -- 10/19/2006 3:50:24 PM >
_____________________________
Someone's got to be right, it might as well be me
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2006 7:40:46 PM
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Colossians
Posts: 22
Joined: 9/30/2006
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Dsutbuster,
You're definitely on the money about one thing. I DO have problems in this area.
Your “problems” result from your desire to perfect the flesh, which is legalism: you are under the law and do not realise it. And the funny thing about those who are under the law, is that they invent laws when there are none, for there is no law about masturbation, and no instruction against it in the NT.
And my biggest mistake was denying that it was a problem. For more than ten years, I was involved in Internet pornography and masturbation, and I convinced myself that it was an acceptable way of dealing with my urges until I found my spouse.
You bigger mistake was the unconvincing.
If you love Jesus Christ, it doesn’t matter what you do. Did you know that?
Now… the way you can prove this, is quite simple: talk to Him about it. The more to talk to Him, the more the Spirit sets you free from the law you don’t realise you are under.
You see, the bible declares the body is dead because of sin. Therefore no act can make it any deader.
Now…this is not to condone pornography. What I am simply saying here is that you are not under the law.
And if not under the law, then nothing you do will have dominion over you, but you will use what you want; when you want, for God’s glory, and tell Satan to go jump. For the believer has the authority in Christ to declare all things lawful, and at the same time to declare when those lawful things are expedient, and when they are not.
It wasn't because of any specific verse about spilling seed, etc. that convicted me.
Here you reveal that you are under the law, for although you say you are not affected by the spilling of seed verse in the OT, your recalling of it actually declares you still agree with what you think it means.
You have taken the verse out of context. God was displeased with Onan’s spilling his seed on the ground because he walked not in love toward his deceased sibling, nor in accord with his father Judah’s wishes, but in accord with his desire to not bear children to his deceased sibling whose name was Er.
So go and read the passage in Genesis again.
It was my heart. I was being selfish and impatient. God may or may not have a spouse planned for me
It is no more valid to declare yourself selfish for masturbating instead of having sex with your non-existent spouse, than to declare yourself selfish for going to the movies without your non-existent spouse.
Do you see here how legalism contorts things, even to the point of making you conform to non-existent constraints?
But in January of this year, I turned it over to God and gave it up. And I talk about this not to boast, but only as an encouragement to others who struggle, so that they may know that God has the power to deliver us men from this sin, so that we may become one flesh with our wives and no other.
It is not for you to turn things over to God, but for God to take them from you when He wishes. The proof of this is that your turning it over has not resulted in your being free from it.
Paul tells us it is better to marry than to burn. The implication in his teaching is that God does not relieve the burning by any other means except practicle means. In other words, He doesn’t make the desire of the flesh go away through prayer. So then, if you have the desire, you either get rid of it through marriage, or through masturbation as I have shown. I have been very careful to point out when masturbation is wrong, and have been very careful to point out when it is right.
If I ever do get married, and I am denied sex, I don't know how I'm going to deal with it, but I will trust that God will help me through, and that I won't need to "help myself" with masturbation in the meantime, just as I don't need to do so now, while I'm waiting for my wife to be revealed to me.
The teachings in the bible are primarily given to males, not females, for the man is the image of God, and the woman the glory of man.
When we find a verse that says that God will provide a way of escape, we therefore understand that the preeminent example is to be found in the life of the male.
God has provided masturbation as a way of escape from temptation, for we are not tempted to masturbate, but we are tempted to copulate with a female in adultery or fornication.
So it is logically invalid to include the way of escape as part of that which is to be resisted.
I don't have a wife yet, but I love her
I see you are part of one of those pseudo-Charismatic churches who preach a name-it-and-claim-it theology. The last time I attended one of those groups, the whole church declared a guy in a wheel chair was soon to walk again. He’s still in the wheel chair.
You in fact don’t love her any more than you love your non-existent new employer. And God may never give you a wife.
And you don’t sin when you masturbate. You are free. Did you know you can even talk to the Lord as you masturbate? Did you know Jesus Christ knows every single urge in your body, and that He made them wonderfully? Who is it that shall bring any charge to God’s elect? Is it not God who justifies you? Who is it that condemns you? Certainly not the Lord who bought you with a price!
Therefore, let not sin reign in you body, and therefore use the method of escape God has given you to help you in this, so that you do not go off and copulate with a woman outside of marriage, but are free to serve God without being distracted by burning all the time.
and no other woman as my spouse. I love her so much,
Your love for your virtual spouse is about as valid as your disdain for virtual sin.
Dustbuster, if you want to bust the dust from your life, you should spend some time reading my main post again slowly, and identifiying the concepts in it, and relating those to NT teaching. And as you do this, you should talk to the Lord. (One of the biggest problems Christians have is that they talk about the Lord, in front of the Lord, instead of talking to Him directly. This is what legalism is.)
Or you can remain bound, and continue to apologise to God every few days.
The Lord bless you with freedom in Him.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2006 12:20:54 AM
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DustBuster
Posts: 21
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Colossians
Paul tells us it is better to marry than to burn. The implication in his teaching is that God does not relieve the burning by any other means except practicle means. In other words, He doesn’t make the desire of the flesh go away through prayer. So then, if you have the desire, you either get rid of it through marriage, or through masturbation as I have shown. I have been very careful to point out when masturbation is wrong, and have been very careful to point out when it is right.
Be very careful when you make implications such as these. He gave two options, burning with passion and relief through marriage. He said nothing about relief through prostitutes, pornography, masturbation etc.
quote:
For the believer has the authority in Christ to declare all things lawful, and at the same time to declare when those lawful things are expedient, and when they are not.
Say what?
Jesus also said to the prostitute, go and sin no more. Even though prostitution was wrong under the law, it didn't change the fact that it was still sin, and he told her to stop. We are forgiven for our sins, but we are also supposed to repent and continuously go to God and seek change for the better. Sin is separation from God. If we want to grow in our relationship with him, we also have to let go of sinful habits.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2006 5:58:18 AM
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Colossians
Posts: 22
Joined: 9/30/2006
Status: offline
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Dustbuster,
I can see that any further teaching would be wasted on you. So I have no further comment to you.
If any other male would like to ask me some questions on this issue after reading what I have written to the respondents and in my first post, feel free to do so in this thread, or to send me a private message.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/28/2006 2:55:53 AM
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UnorthodoxChristian
Posts: 11
Joined: 10/22/2006
Status: offline
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I have a problem with it too, it's hard because almost everyman, Pastor, Priest and don't tell me priests don't do it I bet they do and all men struggle with this. So you all wouldn't consider Masturbation self Fornication? I doubt Jesus ever did this! It's a struggle for all men, and it's not something you can easily fight, I can go two weeks without doing it, then all of a sudden I'll get this urge and then boom.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2006 1:20:55 AM
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Valeska
Posts: 1
Joined: 9/23/2006
Status: offline
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I'm not going to read all 23 pages of stuff on here. So forgive me if I mention stuff that has been brought up before. I believe that masturbation is a sexual act and that sexual acts outside of marriage are sin. I'm not saying I'm right this is just what I think. But I honestly don't know much about masturbation as I have never experienced it. I also believe that if you feel shame for doing it you should stop. But what do I know, I could be completely wrong.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2006 11:44:46 AM
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jonpantomime
Posts: 4
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
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i still sin on this issue. somehow. i rather not get married at all. it is the last days.
not worth an investment in marriage.
sometimes i think of whats the point of getting married. just a waste of time.
lets all buy an island individually and become hermits.
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[Deleted] - 11/1/2006 9:02:18 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/27/2006 12:44:12 AM
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rebelman
Posts: 74
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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The posts that Collosians made have really made me sick. I cannot believe someone can actually come up with that. I was actually wanting to cry reading through all that. We're here to overcome not succomb.
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"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2006 1:00:10 AM
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Appliancedude
Posts: 3
Joined: 11/29/2006
Status: offline
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Ok, so I just found this site today. Why did I also find the masturbation thread already? So forgive me if this has already been covered, cause I'm not bored enough to read 23 pages of posts.
1st. I want to say that I have been "clean" of masturbation and porn for almost 2 months. Strangly picking up a bible and reading it and praying to God and the Holy spirit to help me overcome my urges has worked. Obviously so quickly finding this thread, the desire still exists, but I'm not addicted like I was. And yes I was addicted.
2nd. Purusing the posts I see peolple refering to lust and lustless masturbation. And that lusting is a sin. (as far as I'm concerned, true enough). Now if I'm masturbating with lust about my wife, is that a sin. Let me clarify. Just my wife, no threeway action, just my wife. no nasty stuff, just thoughts of good old lovin with the wife.
3rd. I'm not sure if masurbation is a sin or not. Not convinced eitherway. I do believe that look at and searching out porn is. And obviously your not looking for the articles. So I do believe masturbation while looking at porn and fantasizing about some woman on the screen is a sin. However doing it while thinking about my wife..............
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[Deleted] - 11/30/2006 12:29:04 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2006 11:26:33 PM
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Appliancedude
Posts: 3
Joined: 11/29/2006
Status: offline
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This is going to sound rude, but its really not meant to be.
I didn't ask if masturbation would bring me closer to my spouse or God. from reading your post I assume your position is that all masturbation is a sin. Like I said I havn't decided one way or the other. Searching out porn is a sin as far as I'm concerened. I asked if (assuming you believe lustless masturbation isn't a sin) lusting after your wife while masturbating is a sin or not.
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