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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2007 12:24:25 AM
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jawsmetroid
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From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
But I guess it’s ok to dream about some other women instead of staying awake an intentionally think about her. Thanks for clarifying that.
If you're staying pure while awake, this shouldn't be a problem. We all have sex drives and, as the Bible says, there is no temptation that cannot be overcome.
quote:
You are saying that masturbation is not natural.
Because it is not done naturally by the body (without thought). Nocturnal emmissions are done naturally (without thought). You don't go to bed thinking, "I'm going to have a wet dream tonight," do you?
quote:
I guess I need to start taking more sleeping pills. Why didn’t I think about this sooner? You have been so much help!
Is this sarcasm? Kindly don't use it, as it does not show Christ's love or control over your anger. Your anger is to be directed at powers and sin, not people.
Also, see the point I made to not condemn it as a sin. If something is unnatural and sin, it is not a sin because it is unnatural, it is sin because it is sin. Unnatural behavior is just that- unnatural. I am saying that masturbation is unnatural. Lust is sin. I am not equating the two. They are quite different.
_____________________________
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2007 10:53:40 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3800
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Nocturnal emissions are unintentional. Masturbation is. (intentional)
Can you show me that intentionality makes a difference, biblically?
How about those dreams where you wake up just at the "wet" part and are right on the edge; and even sitting up may be enough to finish you off? Where does intentionality come in there?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2007 8:30:42 PM
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jawsmetroid
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Read Jesus' words in Matthew 5:21-37.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2007 5:49:19 PM
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galbro48026
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Davidway
but it doesn't have to because any logically thinking human being knows that it is grossly immoral. Therefore, it is so perverted that the Bible doesn't even need to mention it. It's common sense.
Well since you brought in common sense let me bring up more common sense issues to you, that you did not mentioned in your point of views, yes you did mention the scriptures the state that sex is for the love union in marriage but you didnt say the marriage was available for people in the bible when people reached puberty year such as 12 or 13 years old...and this is also the time when 12 years old start to think about sex and want to be with a loving wife to express that sexuality....you see this is why when many christians discuss sex and the bible they are not saying the whole side of the story.....for example the bible states this in 1 cor 7 "it is better to marry than to burn" and it also states "to avoid fornication - each man should have a wife".....i think you and many other believer forgot to mention theese and as well as 1 cor 7:36 where it shows that fathers are not to withhold marriage to good potential men once the father daughter reaches 12 years old or puberty.....
now since i address all of it now i can see why masturbation is a big issue in churches and in mens fellowship groups and pornography and so on....now many people tell me that young marriages are only cultural and not to be followed anymore....OK then can please clearly tell me where "abstinence" is clearly taught in the bible - in fact "abstinence" is a grey area and different views on this - even if the bible clearly taught abstinence - the bible clearly teaches that not all men can practice abstience becuase the bible teaches that some men cannot contain and the bible teaches them to marry rahter than burn and this is discussed in 1 cor 7.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Davidway
The Bible also doesn't say anywhere in any explicit terms that pedophilia is evil
Actually the bible does discuss this issue its in 1 Cor 7:36 and it tell us that the father had give his daughter in a marriage to a potential man once she reaches puberty that word you are looking for is "flower of her age" in the king james version and according to jewish tradition this flower of our age was 12.5 years old....King james uses the word "flower" because in the old testament flower represented the womans first menstral cycle or the beginning of puberty when men or women can have sex and have babies and so on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Davidway
to me masturbation is perverted, and it makes me sick. I'm a 26 year old male, virgin, and I've never masturbated in my life. I've never even had the thought in the deepest recesses of my mind to masturate.
Thank you for your honesty David becuase this is the attitude of many christians in church they come into church and wear this mask on their face and give this fake impression in church that they are super holy and they say to themselves "oh i never dealt with that - i am a holy and wonderful person - i never struggled with life - i just float in the air" and they act like this to be pridfull and show off and you know what Dave that holy than thou attitude makes me sick - Sorry no offense to you in just expressing my view here and in sorry i dont believe you on what you said above- we are all human beings and we all have a penis and a sex drive and we all struggle with this - according to christian surveys almost all men in their lives have masturbated - do you know why david? becuase its normal to have a desire to be with loving wife according to Ephesians 5 and that is why masturbation is the issue here please also read 1 Cor 7 too and paul talks about how normal the sex drive is and how we desire a loving wife......and david if you dont think about sex then you have the gift of celebacy but you have to realize that all men have have this please refer to Matt 19 on this issue of celebacy.
this make people leave church because people think they are not holy enoght to go to church because they are struggling in life trying to do good but the problem is they see nice wonderful holy people like you and they cannot meet the holy guidelines you set in front of them by acting really holy and putting on a show, can you please do me a favor christians can you please take you mask off and just admit that you do struggle just like everyone else....please dont act like the pharasee in the bible where they would show off and show people how long they prayed everyday and show off to people how much money they gave everyday.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2007 9:54:45 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid
Because it is not done naturally by the body (without thought). Nocturnal emmissions are done naturally (without thought). You don't go to bed thinking, "I'm going to have a wet dream tonight," do you?
I don't quite understand how it's unnatural. Eating is a natural thing isn't it? Our bodies don't produce the nutrients it needs on its own, it takes conscious thought and our hands to provide that. I've read surveys that say nearly everyone does it, and I've read that unborn babies have been observed pleasuring themselves, so it seems like a naturally occurring thing to me.
On the issue of lust, I believe masturbation can easily be done without it. My whole issue with lust is that people will just whip out the dictionary and say that it's a [strong] sexual desire, so therefore if we have any feelings of sexual desire about someone then we've sinned. Every (normal) male has sexual desire, and it can be quite strong sometimes. Sexual desire is part of our God given sexuality. It just seems to me that if that's what [God's definition of] lust is then God himself is causing us to sin. I don't believe God does that. I believe lust is something more. Using David as an example, I don't think it was lust when he saw a woman taking a bath, it became lust when he desired to take her away from her husband.
The church's teaching on this issue has produced an unnecessary amout of guilt in people. I John 5:3 says that God's commands are not burdensome. Well, I used to believe that it was a sin and I felt incredibly burdened by it. I hated myself for a while. I wished that God wouldn't have made me the way He did because I truly wanted to please Him, but felt I couldn't because I kept 'failing'. Later I came to the conclusion that if its such an overwhelming burden, maybe it wasn't a command from God, but rather from man.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2007 2:02:35 AM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
I don't quite understand how it's unnatural... I've read surveys that say nearly everyone does it, and I've read that unborn babies have been observed pleasuring themselves, so it seems like a naturally occurring thing to me.
So because everyone does it and because babies do it it's okay? That's not very good logic, as all are born with sin. You cannot base what is natural by observing those with sin.
quote:
My whole issue with lust is that people will just whip out the dictionary and say that it's a [strong] sexual desire, so therefore if we have any feelings of sexual desire about someone then we've sinned. Every (normal) male has sexual desire, and it can be quite strong sometimes. Sexual desire is part of our God given sexuality. It just seems to me that if that's what [God's definition of] lust is then God himself is causing us to sin. I don't believe God does that. I believe lust is something more. Using David as an example, I don't think it was lust when he saw a woman taking a bath, it became lust when he desired to take her away from her husband.
Lust is a strong desire. See the definition:
epithumia
Thayer Definition:
1) desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust
Part of Speech: noun feminine
What you described is coveting, wanting what is not yours, not simply lust. Lust is adultery without the opportunity.
By the way, just because masturbation can be done without lust does not mean it should. Why do men have nocturnal emissions that they can't control? Is it because God wants us to gratify ourselves and not have them? When was the last time you had a wet dream? My guess is that if you masturbate regularly, you don't have wet dreams. On the same token, note that erections are not sinful. I have found that they are helpful in my body releasing sexual tension. Why not use those two outlets? Why resort to gratifying yourself?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2007 8:47:06 AM
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Elad02
Posts: 26
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid
Lust is a strong desire. See the definition:
epithumia
Thayer Definition:
1) desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust
Part of Speech: noun feminine
What you described is coveting, wanting what is not yours, not simply lust. Lust is adultery without the opportunity.
Lust is synonymous with covet.
From the greek lexicon on this site:
Epithumeo (strongs 1937)
1. to turn upon a thing
2. to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3. to lust after, covet
1. of those who seek things forbidden
This is the word that is translated as lust in the often quoted Matt 5:28. Elsewhere in the New Testament the same word is translated as covet.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2007 5:09:01 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
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Here is Strong's on the word translated as lust in most passages of the NT:
G1939
ἐπιθυμία
epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).
This word is used 37 times in the NT. It is used in the context of strong earthly/fleshy desires, not coveting.
Also,
G1937
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o
From G1909 and G2372; to set the heart upon, that is, long for (rightfully or otherwise): - covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).
When this word is taken in context, it does mean covet because that is what it is talking about in context, no matter the English word. Did you read the context of the 16 times it is used in the NT? It means covet by the context in most, if not all of the contexts it is used in.
For every Greek word you might have several definitions, and to every English word there might be several definitions that would work with the same Greek word. Greek 101. In other words, look closer at the Greek and the context it's in.
_____________________________
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2007 10:40:47 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
So because everyone does it and because babies do it it's okay? That's not very good logic, as all are born with sin. You cannot base what is natural by observing those with sin.
I'm saying that it's a naturally occurring phenomena. The number of people that do somehing isn't what makes a thing right or wrong, obviously. What makes it a sin is what you believe. You believe it's sin, so if you did it, it would be a sin.
quote:
Here is Strong's on the word translated as lust in most passages of the NT:
G1939
ἐπιθυμία
epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).
This word is used 37 times in the NT. It is used in the context of strong earthly/fleshy desires, not coveting.
Also,
G1937
ἐπιθυμέω
epithumeō
ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o
From G1909 and G2372; to set the heart upon, that is, long for (rightfully or otherwise): - covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).
When this word is taken in context, it does mean covet because that is what it is talking about in context, no matter the English word. Did you read the context of the 16 times it is used in the NT? It means covet by the context in most, if not all of the contexts it is used in.
For every Greek word you might have several definitions, and to every English word there might be several definitions that would work with the same Greek word. Greek 101. In other words, look closer at the Greek and the context it's in.
OK, I've never taken Greek 101. I'm no expert of the Greek language. Maybe 'covet' isn't meant every time the word 'lust' is used in the Bible. My point, though, is that, on the issue of sexuality, it seems to me the sin labeled 'lust' is actually the sin of covetousness, and not just a normal, natural desire one may have by seeing the opposite sex, as so many make it out to be. We're told that if we see someone and don't immediately divert our gaze, or if we have any kind of fantasy about it, then we are lusting and have essentially committed adultery. I don't believe that's the sin. It's the desire to take the person as your own that is the sin.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2007 11:55:30 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
I'm saying that it's a naturally occurring phenomena. The number of people that do somehing isn't what makes a thing right or wrong, obviously. What makes it a sin is what you believe. You believe it's sin, so if you did it, it would be a sin.
So now you're saying that just because I believe it is a sin, it's a sin? What if I didn't believe murder was a sin? Does that mean it's not a sin? That argument is not logical either. Please base your arguments with logic, not moral relativism.
quote:
OK, I've never taken Greek 101. I'm no expert of the Greek language. Maybe 'covet' isn't meant every time the word 'lust' is used in the Bible. My point, though, is that, on the issue of sexuality, it seems to me the sin labeled 'lust' is actually the sin of covetousness, and not just a normal, natural desire one may have by seeing the opposite sex, as so many make it out to be. We're told that if we see someone and don't immediately divert our gaze, or if we have any kind of fantasy about it, then we are lusting and have essentially committed adultery. I don't believe that's the sin. It's the desire to take the person as your own that is the sin.
First, I would like to politely point out that you don't have to be an expert in Greek to understand an English dictionary/concordance that is available to the general public for free, which is on this site. Also, I haven't taken greek 101 either. I've simply studied the Bible using the free tool that I just spoke of.
Second, you're saying that it is okay to fantacizing about someone. That's wrong. It's called lust. Lust is when you want something that is forbidden. Coveting is when you want something that belongs to someone else. In those definitions (which are directly from the definition of the Greek on both words that I posted), lust is looking at someone and thinking the wrong things. By thinking about having sex with someone, or even wanting to know what they look like or wanting them you are desiring something that is forbidden. It's forbidden because of the ideal of marriage. Does that make things clearer for you? We are not to gratify the desires of the flesh, but the desires of the Spirit. Off with the old, in with the new. Death to the flesh, birth to the Spirit.
_____________________________
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2007 1:20:29 PM
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crossbearer777
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if someone is struggling with masturbation how do they stop?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2007 4:06:31 PM
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dmagoh
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Guy_On_Fire_For_God
I can't get over the fact that people think that masturbation is possible without lust period. I just don't believe it.
OK I'm new to this forum so forgive me if I post something that's already been covered.
I can masturbate without thinking of someone else. The reason is this: I have unwanted same sex attraction, but I do not act on the desires anymore. I use to masturbate thinking of other guys. However, when I started trying to get my life right, I no longer wanted to think lustful thoughts about anyone, and especially men. So instead of thinking of someone or something, I concentrate on the feelings in my penis and enjoy them. The feelings will slowly build up and you will eventually have an really intense orgasm. I sometimes use a vibrator on my penis and just concentrate on how good it feels. If you discipline yourself to just enjoy the feelings, then there is no lust involved, and you have guilt-free pleasure.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2007 4:43:44 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
So now you're saying that just because I believe it is a sin, it's a sin? What if I didn't believe murder was a sin? Does that mean it's not a sin? That argument is not logical either. Please base your arguments with logic, not moral relativism.
Why is it people jump to conclusions like this? We're talking about masturbation here, not murder, so I was specifically referring to that. Everybody knows murder is sin. Masturbation isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible so it's a grey area. In those cases, if someone can't do it in faith, then it's a sin for them. They're sinning against their conscience.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2007 12:32:02 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
Why is it people jump to conclusions like this? We're talking about masturbation here, not murder, so I was specifically referring to that. Everybody knows murder is sin. Masturbation isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible so it's a grey area. In those cases, if someone can't do it in faith, then it's a sin for them. They're sinning against their conscience.
Elad, with the syntax you used you were coming to the conclusion of moral relativism- anyone has the right to do what they believe is right. Also, I have given evidence as to why one should not masturbate. Kindly argue against those claims rather than making new ones. Also, just because the Bible doesn't say anything specifically about masturbation does not mean it's okay. Just because it is permissable does not mean it's beneficial.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2007 12:38:49 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
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quote:
If you discipline yourself to just enjoy the feelings, then there is no lust involved, and you have guilt-free pleasure.
Two things:
One: We don't need that kind of imagery in writing.
Two: Lust is desire for what is forbidden . Sexual gratification outside of marriage would be what your desire is for. Giving in to the desires/feelings of the flesh. That is lust and is wrong. Please see my previous post #607.
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Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!- Toby Mac
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2007 12:40:40 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
if someone is struggling with masturbation how do they stop?
First, stop lusting. Then you will be more able to stop masturbating. It doesn't happen overnight. I can't tell you much besides that, other than to know what is okay and what is not okay when it comes to the sexual aspect of life.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2007 12:44:12 PM
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DustBuster
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dmagoh
quote:
ORIGINAL: Guy_On_Fire_For_God
I can't get over the fact that people think that masturbation is possible without lust period. I just don't believe it.
OK I'm new to this forum so forgive me if I post something that's already been covered.
I can masturbate without thinking of someone else. The reason is this: I have unwanted same sex attraction, but I do not act on the desires anymore. I use to masturbate thinking of other guys. However, when I started trying to get my life right, I no longer wanted to think lustful thoughts about anyone, and especially men.
There's no need to get into graphic detail here. Anyways....
Even assuming what you say is absolutely true, it still comes short of sharing that experience with a spouse. Instead of focusing on your wife, or another man or woman, you're focusing on yourself.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2007 4:26:10 PM
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Elad02
Posts: 26
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quote:
Elad, with the syntax you used you were coming to the conclusion of moral relativism- anyone has the right to do what they believe is right.
I see now how you got that from my first statment. Sorry. I take it you understand what I meant now?
quote:
Also, I have given evidence as to why one should not masturbate. Kindly argue against those claims rather than making new ones
If I understand correctly, you're against it because it involves (or causes) lust, goes againt God's plan of one man and one woman, and because it's unnatural. Am I correct? We've discussed the unnatural part. Back to lust. I'll address this:
quote:
Second, you're saying that it is okay to fantacizing about someone. That's wrong. It's called lust. Lust is when you want something that is forbidden. Coveting is when you want something that belongs to someone else. In those definitions (which are directly from the definition of the Greek on both words that I posted), lust is looking at someone and thinking the wrong things. By thinking about having sex with someone, or even wanting to know what they look like or wanting them you are desiring something that is forbidden. It's forbidden because of the ideal of marriage. Does that make things clearer for you? We are not to gratify the desires of the flesh, but the desires of the Spirit. Off with the old, in with the new. Death to the flesh, birth to the Spirit.
I don't believe fantacizing is lust. Fantacizing about someone isn't wanting them. It's make believe. It's not real. How many guys have thought about someone while masturbating? How many of those guys have gone after the person they were thinking about in real life? If you want something you'll pursue it. If there's no desire to get what you're thinking about it's not lust.
quote:
Amen. I would add that it goes against God's original plan of one man and one woman, as it is along the lines of one man and his sex organs instead. I would agree that it is hard, but not impossible. Nothing is impossible with God.
People will say God created sex, so sex is good, however, its only proper expression is within marriage. Is sexuallity then a blessing to the married person and a curse to the single person? Single people aren't asexual. It goes without saying that they have the same feelings a married person does. More and more people are putting off marriage until later in their life. I don't believe God would put such desire in people at such a young age and then expect them to try to ignore or suppress it and just 'wait' until they finally do get married. To wait that long doing absolutely nothing sexual seems nigh, if not completely, impossible. Yes, God can do what seems impossible to us, it just seems contradictory to me, in this case, that He would give us something and then want us to get rid of it, or at least put it on hold.
< Message edited by Elad02 -- 2/24/2007 7:08:07 PM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 1:13:05 AM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
Even assuming what you say is absolutely true, it still comes short of sharing that experience with a spouse. Instead of focusing on your wife, or another man or woman, you're focusing on yourself.
Another good point to make to Elad's arguments: is fantacizing focusing on a wife?
quote:
I don't believe fantacizing is lust. Fantacizing about someone isn't wanting them. It's make believe. It's not real. How many guys have thought about someone while masturbating? How many of those guys have gone after the person they were thinking about in real life? If you want something you'll pursue it. If there's no desire to get what you're thinking about it's not lust.
If thinking about having sex with someone isn't desire, what is? If fantacizing about someone isn't lust, what is? Lust is a desire for something forbidden. Thinking about someone in a way that would picture them having sex with you is called wanting something forbidden. You want sex. This is a desire. You are fulfilling this desire, which is forbidden in the context you are using it. You have no logical or Scriptural grounds for making the claim that fantacizing is okay, nevermind masturbation.
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To wait that long doing absolutely nothing sexual seems nigh, if not completely, impossible. Yes, God can do what seems impossible to us, it just seems contradictory to me, in this case, that He would give us something and then want us to get rid of it, or at least put it on hold.
Nocturnal emissions are sexual and natural, as is an erection.
quote:
People will say God created sex, so sex is good, however, its only proper expression is within marriage.
God created sex. Sex is good. Its proper expression in any way involving another person is in a marital relationship, whether the involvement is in the thoughts or physically. Anything outside of this context involving another person is sin , whether by thought or action. Additionally, given the definition of lust, you are desiring something that is forbidden in the first place.
One note is that people in Jesus day got married at around 15, just three years after hitting puberty, which we now consider illegal. I don't see the Bible condemning this marriage age anywhere. They really didn't have to worry too much about this unless they were a religious leader.
Either come up with solid biblical evidence or kindly stop making bold claims that you cannot support.
_____________________________
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I'm not implying something unless it's obvious. When in doubt, ask, don't assume.
Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!- Toby Mac
Chat about the deep things in life...
www.jawsmetroid.blogspot.com
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 6:12:10 PM
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iBlieve
Posts: 16
Joined: 2/25/2007
Status: offline
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I stumbled upon this thread last night and was planning to read through the whole thing, until I discovered it was 25 pages long!!! I decided to just read the first 5 pages and last 5 pages to get an idea of the development of the discussion. I have to say, it doesn't change much from beginning to end. So please forgive me if I repeat something that may have already been shared in pages 6 through 20.
Here is a recap of what I read:
On one side of the issue is the "pro-masturbation" group. They have stated several times that the physical act of masturbation (I am not talking about lust) is not a sin because nothing in the Bible specifically condemns it as such. It has been argued that masturbation is just an extension of our sexuality and is not wrong if done without lustful thoughts. It has also been argued that masturbation is the "escape" God provides for single people so they don't sin by falling into pre-marital sex. Some have even gone so far as to quote research that suggests that men who masturbate on a regular basis are less likely to develop prostate cancer than men who don't. They say any feelings of guilt following masturbation stem from our society telling us it is wrong.
On the other side of the issue are those who are "anti-masturbation." They state that masturbation is a sin because it IS and extension of our sexuality. It involves performing a sex act outside of the bonds of marriage. They also argue that, even if one is able to masturbate without lustful thoughts, those thoughts will eventually come into ones heart and mind. It is interesting that no one raised the point that, even though there may be some vague references in the Bible to what could be interpreted as masturbation, there is no Scripture that could be interpreted to says masturbation is permissible. According to the Bible, divorce is permissible. Does this mean that divorce is right or good? Absolutely not! God despises divorce. The anti-masturbation group says that feelings of guilt following masturbation are caused by the Holy Spirit "jabbing" our moral conscience for committing a sin.
Some would even have us believe that masturbation falls into the "gray" area of what is a sin, right along with drinking alcoholic beverages, smoking tobacco, play card games (I don't mean gambling), dancing, etc. They believe it should be left up to each believer to decide for himself whether or not it is a sin. A few have even dipped their toe in the cesspool of moral relativism to argue their point. They say that if a believer feels that masturbation is not a sin, he should be able to do it without any feelings of guilt. If he believes it is a sin, though, he should expect guilty feelings.
Here is my take on the subject based on the understanding the Holy Spirit has given me on the Bible's teachings about sex and sexuality:
God's intent for sex is for it to only be practiced between one man and one woman within the bonds of marriage. Anything other than that is extra-marital. I would even have to say masturbating while thinking about ones spouse falls under extra-marital sex because you are performing a sex act without physical interaction with your wife. So if you masturbate to "take advantage of God's 'escape' from sin," guess what, you just sinned. If you masturbate as a course of "health maintenance," guess what, you just sinned. If you only think of your wife, or don't think of anyone at all, while you masturbate, guess what, you just sinned. If you should have an erotic wet dream in the middle of the night, guess what, you have not sinned. Dreams stem from our brains processing the day’s activities and can be influenced by our environment. If you should develop an erection while dreaming, it is only natural that your brain would respond by coming up with an erotic dream. You would be guiltless for any emissions. Embarrassed, maybe, but guiltless.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 7:12:25 PM
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Elad02
Posts: 26
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
If thinking about having sex with someone isn't desire, what is? If fantacizing about someone isn't lust, what is? Lust is a desire for something forbidden. Thinking about someone in a way that would picture them having sex with you is called wanting something forbidden. You want sex. This is a desire. You are fulfilling this desire, which is forbidden in the context you are using it. You have no logical or Scriptural grounds for making the claim that fantacizing is okay, nevermind masturbation.
What scripture says it's forbidden to simply think about someone? A 'wet dream' is a fantasy isn't it? The dreams that accompany nocturnal emissions can be quite vivid, and we can't control that. If God designed us so we would have such explicit dreams like that, why is it wrong to have a 'day dream' about it? You mentioned that it's intention that makes a difference and gave Matthew 5:21-37 as a reason. Let's look at that.
The two major issuses here are murder and adultrey. First, He says that if you're angry with someone, without cause, it's just as wrong as murdering someone would be.. As I understand it, this isn't simply being upset with someone for something they did. It's much more than that. It's being very angry and hateful toward somebody for no reason at all. He didn't say it was sin to be upset with people. Thats a natural human emotion.
Second, He says that lusting after someone is just as wrong as actually committing adultery with them. Adultery is taking someone who already belongs to someone else. The desire to take what belongs to someone else is coveting. Jesus was saying here that if someone were to be so overcome with desire for someone, to the point of wanting to take them away from whoever they're with, that is just as wrong as adultery itself.
These examples show that what is sin is not a simple thought or feeling, it's something more advanced than that. I don't see how that is addressing general, passing thoughts someone may have while masturbating. When the act ends the thoughts end. Lusting after somebody is more than that.
quote:
Either come up with solid biblical evidence or kindly stop making bold claims that you cannot support.
The Biblical 'evidence' I'm using are truths everyone should already know: God created us; God is all knowing and unchanging; God is love, and we are to be.
1. God created us. He knew what He was doing when He made us. Our sexuality was His design. He made us to be aroused easily. Was He thinking that nothing was going to go on in our heads when we see someone of the opposite sex? Did He know there would be and then decide to make that a sin? Why would He do that? He knew full well how our mind and body would react.
2. God is all knowing. You mentioned that people got married young back in Jesus' day. Was it an oversight on His part that times would change and that people would marry later in their lives? Was it God's plan for people to marry young? Where is that in scripture? Did He want us to suffer through singlehood if we didn't marry young? God knew what life would be like today back when He created us.
3. God Loves us. God understands our bodies and the reacions it has better than anybody else. Why would He make us to react a certain way and then turn around and condemn us for it? Is it some cruel joke?
That's what I base what I believe on. If sexuality is a blessing I think it is a blessing to everyone. I don't believe God wants us to be constantly fighting against it. I believe the answer lies somewhere between "it's a sin to do this, this, or this' and 'everything goes'. Telling people this is a sin causes much guilt, shame, embarrassment, etc. Going way over board is wrong too. I believe there is a healthy balance in between.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 8:22:50 PM
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iBlieve
Posts: 16
Joined: 2/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I believe the answer lies somewhere between "it's a sin to do this, this, or this' and 'everything goes'. Telling people this is a sin causes much guilt, shame, embarrassment, etc. Going way over board is wrong too. I believe there is a healthy balance in between.
So who decides where the "healthy balance in between" is?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 9:15:38 PM
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Elad02
Posts: 26
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iBlieve
So who decides where the "healthy balance in between" is?
That's between you and God. Personally, I believe the principle Paul talked about in Corinthians applies to this. Some people thought it was a sin to eat certain meats because it had become tainted by being used in idol worship, while others believed it was perfectly acceptable to eat it. If it violated one's conscience, then to that person it was a sin. In the same way, if you believe God has called you to abstain from masturbation, then by all means do so. However, if someone else believes it's ok, then they shouldn't be looked down upon for that.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 10:01:17 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 210
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
Status: offline
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quote:
What scripture says it's forbidden to simply think about someone?
If that is the response I get after clearly explaining myself, you clearly haven't read it. Please read your quote of me again, and read the "Lust is a desire for something forbidden. Thinking about someone in a way that would picture them having sex with you is called wanting something forbidden. You want sex. This is a desire." part again.
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As I understand it, this isn't simply being upset with someone for something they did. It's much more than that. It's being very angry and hateful toward somebody for no reason at all. He didn't say it was sin to be upset with people. Thats a natural human emotion.
Wrong.
The Greek behind the word 'anger' in the passage you refer to:
From G3709; to provoke or enrage, that is, (passively) become exasperated: - be angry (wroth).
In other words, being upset with someone is the same as being angry by definition and by context.
quote:
A 'wet dream' is a fantasy isn't it? The dreams that accompany nocturnal emissions can be quite vivid, and we can't control that. If God designed us so we would have such explicit dreams like that, why is it wrong to have a 'day dream' about it?
If God designed us so we had the capacity to dream about murder, does that make murder okay in reality? If God designed us so we had the capacity to disobey Him by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, should we? God designed us to have sexual intimacy with our wife, and only our wife, not our thoughts about someone who is not a wife.
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God understands our bodies and the reacions it has better than anybody else.
God understands relationships better than anyone else also, and He also understands the impact that our thought life has on our relationship with Him and with others.
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Some people thought it was a sin to eat certain meats because it had become tainted by being used in idol worship, and others believed it was perfectly acceptable to eat it. If it violated one's conscience, then to that person it was a sin. In the same way, if you believe God has called you to abstain from masturbation, then by all mean do so.
With your argument here you are demonstrating that anything is okay if you believe it's okay. That's moral relativism. The Bible is the codebook for how we are to live our lives. Are we giving glory to the Lord if we think about pleasing ourselves instead of Him and others?
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The Biblical 'evidence' I'm using are truths everyone should already know: God created us; God is all knowing and unchanging; God is love, and we are to be.
That's not Scriptural evidence, that's reasoning, which is flawed due to the overwhelming Scriptural principals (which I have already stated either in this post or in previous ones) that goes against it.
quote:
These examples show that what is sin is not a simple thought or feeling, it's something more advanced than that. I don't see how that is addressing general, passing thoughts someone may have while masturbating. When the act ends the thoughts end. Lusting after somebody is more than that.
So it's okay because the acts end? It's okay just because you reason it to be that way? I don't think so.
One last argument: Jesus was perfect, and committed no sin, and was fully man. Do you see Him going and masturbating? How about thinking of having sex with people? Jesus also did nothing of himself, He only did what He saw God doing. If this is the case, why do we hear nothing about indulgence in sexual desire from Jesus?
Like I said before, find Scripture that backs you up. Don't give me 'logic', give me Scripture. Find me one verse that says it's okay to think about others in a sexual way. Also, find me verses that shows how it can't affect our relationships with other people or a future wife. Prove to me that you can be thinking about your own fleshy desires and give glory to God.
_____________________________
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I'm not implying something unless it's obvious. When in doubt, ask, don't assume.
Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!- Toby Mac
Chat about the deep things in life...
www.jawsmetroid.blogspot.com
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2007 10:43:22 PM
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jbow
Posts: 164
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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It really is easy to fing a way to excuse thing's that you have no intention of stopping or cannot stop. Truly the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Masturbation is a real problem that is impossible to control by self control, the hand is just too close to the handle and you have to shower or bathe every day, (I hope). So, sooner or later it's going to happen and if you are like I was as a young man, more often than not. However, as an older man, whith diminished desire due to both age and medication, it is easier to see clearly without being clouded by lust or natural desire. I am convinced that masturbation can be controlled by the life of Christ but not by our own self control. It's just too easy to fall to it.
This too I know, God is very forgiving and Hid grace is sufficient. I also know that for me, masturbation is a sin. It is a vice.
If you think that it really is ok, are you really sure that you are being truthful with yourself, remember Jerimiah 17:9... "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
I just posted this as a general response after browsing the thread, not to anyone in particular.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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