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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 7:35:08 PM
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kljohnson77
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I have to agree with DaveW on the issue of something being sin to one and not to another. Otherwise, the Scriptures would have to be unimaginably longer to cover every aspect of every situation that each one of us faces to ensure that we didn't sin in some way. Drinking alcohol (wine, for example) can be sin to one who doesn't have the faith that God has not condemned consumption of alcohol as a sin. Drunkeness is a sin but one can drink three ounces and be drunk while another can drink twelve ounces and not be.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 8:29:45 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I don't know why this is debatable among modern scholars when the meaning and usage of the Greek word is clearly understood by them, the Greeks.
quote:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The Greek word is "malakos" which to the modern Greek means masturbation. Ask any Greek. And this meaning was also understood by the early Christians who spoke Greek.
It is clear from this passage that those who do this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Malakos means masturbation? I've never heard that before. So, does that mean, then, that in Mat. 11:8 and Luke 7:25, the two other passages where the word is used, that Jesus asked the crowd if they had come to see a masturbator? If that word is referring to clothes worn by rich people in the palaces in those two verses, how can it mean masturbation in the 1 Cor. passage?
quote:
As for an explanation why this is so, it is because it is not love. Love is what you give to another person, in this case the only other appropriate person is your spouse. Self pleasure is not love, but a selfish act. Even if your thoughts include your spouse, you're deceiving yourself, because your spouse is not receiving any of it, but yourself. It is purely selfish. It is all about me.
It is the same if you do this with another person other than your spouse, because even tho you're giving it to another person, the real reason why you're doing it is for self pleasure only. It is nothing less than a selfish act which is sin.
I think every time I've seen the command to love in the bible it always says to love others as yourself, so apparently love isn't something that is only given to another person.
If masturbating and feeling pleasure is not loving, is it more loving to have someone carry around the weight of their guilt and shame that others put on them?
Why is feeling pleasure so wrong anyway? All our senses desire to be pleased. Is pleasing all my other senses besides touch selfish?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 11:25:08 PM
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walterquez
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Dear elad, you bring a good point concerning the other two passages, but the context in 1Co 6:9 has always been understood over the centuries by many early Church Fathers to mean masturbation. It is their language. I think they would know better their own language. Even to this day, if you grab a Greek bible and ask a Greek to tell you what 1Co 6:9 means, they will tell you it means masturbation, not effeminate as it is commonly translated.
I encourage anyone here to go to any Greek Church. It doesn't matter what denomination it is, Orthodox, Charismatic, Presbyterian, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a Greek speaking Church. Ask them what this passage means. They will tell you it is masturbation.
Masturbation is a serious sin, and those who continue in it will "not" inherit the kingdom of God. This unfortunately means the person is not saved. And if you believe in once saved always saved, then this means the person was never saved to begin with. Or if you believe you can lose your salvation, then this person definitely lost it. So the solution is to repent and be saved from it.
_____________________________
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 12:17:30 AM
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kljohnson77
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The term malakos seems to have no basis in self-eroticism. From the footnote to 1 Cor 6:9 in the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Co&chapter=6&verse=9):
1 tn This term is sometimes rendered “effeminate,” although in contemporary English usage such a translation could be taken to refer to demeanor rather than behavior. BDAG 613 s.v. (malakos) 2 has “pert. to being passive in a same-sex relationship, effeminate esp. of catamites, of men and boys who are sodomized by other males in such a relationship.” L&N 88.281 states, “the passive male partner in homosexual intercourse – ‘homosexual.’ …As in Greek, a number of other languages also have entirely distinct terms for the active and passive roles in homosexual intercourse.” See also the discussion in G. D. Fee, First Corinthians (NICNT), 243-44. A number of modern translations have adopted the phrase “male prostitutes” for (malakoi) in 1 Cor 6:9 (NIV, NRSV, NLT) but this could be misunderstood by the modern reader to mean “males who sell their services to women,” while the term in question appears, at least in context, to relate to homosexual activity between males. Furthermore, it is far from certain that prostitution as commonly understood (the selling of sexual favors) is specified here, as opposed to a consensual relationship. Thus the translation “passive homosexual partners” has been used here.
2 tn On this term BDAG 135 s.v. (arsenokoites) states, “a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9…of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. (malakos) 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27.” L&N 88.280 states, “a male partner in homosexual intercourse – ‘homosexual.’…It is possible that (arsenokoites) in certain contexts refers to the active male partner in homosexual intercourse in contrast with (malakos), the passive male partner.” Since there is a distinction in contemporary usage between sexual orientation and actual behavior, the qualification “practicing” was supplied in the translation, following the emphasis in BDAG.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 1:05:36 AM
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Bibleman7
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quote:
I have to agree with DaveW on the issue of something being sin to one and not to another. Otherwise, the Scriptures would have to be unimaginably longer to cover every aspect of every situation that each one of us faces to ensure that we didn't sin in some way.
Kljohnson77, you are wrong.
Just because you agree with DaveW, it does not mean the kind of false doctrine you are claiming is correct. Maybe inside of a religious cult.
Man does NOT determine what sin is. Never has and never will. But according to the Christian Bible, which is what I testify too, God has already stated what sin is.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/25/2007 4:40:51 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 2:08:09 AM
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Bibleman7
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quote:
original: kljohnson77
The term malakos seems to have no basis in self-eroticism.
It was difficult to find because the definition in Ancient Greek was "of uncertain affinity." But in order for you to see it to believe it. Search through the Wikipedia (it's really there). It will tell you the meaning in Modern Greek which is the following:
1. Malakia means "masturbation"
2. Malakas means "one who masturbates"
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/25/2007 4:35:37 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 2:13:33 AM
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Bibleman7
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Dear brothers,
I will no longer participate in this thread. It has become a hinderance on me. However I will partake in other "Men Only" threads. Thank you for listening. Goodbye.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/25/2007 4:37:24 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 12:34:45 PM
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guitarmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kljohnson77
The term malakos seems to have no basis in self-eroticism. From the footnote to 1 Cor 6:9 in the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Co&chapter=6&verse=9):
What has always struck me as odd is the fact that, among the zillion or so variations on sexual sins mentioned in the Bible, M isn't mentioned at all! Even if we try to tease out a vague reference to it, don't you think that as horrible as it is, God would've mentioned it - At least fifteen times or more... Adultery and other sins of the flesh are mentioned countless times, but are not as universally practiced as M. How did God forget to mention that one?
_____________________________
Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 7:51:19 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bibleman7
quote:
original: kljohnson77
The term malakos seems to have no basis in self-eroticism.
It was difficult to find because the definition in Ancient Greek was "of uncertain affinity." But in order for you to see it to believe it. Search through the Wikipedia (it's really there). It will tell you the meaning in Modern Greek which is the following:
1. Malakia means "masturbation"
2. Malakas means "one who masturbates"
On wikipedia it says, "In modern greek, the word has come to mean masturbation." As Dave mentioned, that's just like in our modern english how gay has come to mean homosexual. When we put our modern culture and word definitions into the Bible, we are reading something into the text, not getting the true meaning from it.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2007 10:32:32 PM
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High_Hopes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bibleman7
quote:
Two people can do the exact same thing and one sins while the other does not.
DaveW, you are wrong.
This is NOT what the bible teaches.
actually Bibleman7 he is not entirely wrong. The bible teaches that if you help a brother with a unselfish motive you should be comended. But if you do the same act with a selfish heart you may receive the glory of men, but of God you will not. To help someone with a selfish motive is a sin. You can do the exact same thing for that person with an unselfish motive and it would not be considered a sin.
And I also would like to agree that the modern greek term may not mean the same thing as it did when the bible was translated. If the people who translated it to english wanted it to mean masturbate instead of homosexual activities they would have chose the word that best suits it... It is mentioned many times in the bible that homosexual acts are sinfull, along with all the other sins. If masturbation was mentioned as a sin it would be in there more than once.
_____________________________
Why do today, what you can put off until tomorrow :)
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 2:02:45 AM
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JamesL5
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quote:
original: Waterquez
Masturbation is a serious sin, and those who continue in it will "not" inherit the kingdom of God.
If I might chime in,
I agree with Waterquez.......masturbation is a serious sin and should not be taken lightly. If you are engaging in it, then I hope you stop because it is a sin.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 3:43:52 AM
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JamesL5
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quote:
orginal: DaveW
Two people can do the exact same thing and one sins while the other does not.
I dissagree with DaveW........No one is exempt from God's Law. Regardless of who or what you are.........
We as Christians really need to be careful of what we post here on threads. Statements such as these are extremely misleading.
< Message edited by blessamerica -- 9/26/2007 9:07:21 PM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 6:46:34 PM
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Elad02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessamerica
quote:
orginal: DaveW
Two people can do the exact same thing and one sins while the other does not.
I dissagree with DaveW........No one is exempt from God's Law. Regardless of who or what you are.........
We as Christians really need to be careful of what we post here on threads. Statements such as these are extremely missleading.
I believe Dave is correct. Take the eating of meat offered to idols example here. It wasn't a sin to simply eat the meat. It was just food. Eating it wasn't partaking of anything involving the idols. They were just eating. Yet, some thought that it was wrong to eat that particular kind of food because of where their faith/conscience was. See, the act itself in question wasn't a sin. However, if someone was convinced that it was a sin, they would be sinning if they did it because they weren't believing, by faith, that it was okay. That same principle can be applied to this topic. The Bible doesn't define masturbation as sin, so the act itself isn't a sin. Yet, if someone believes masturbation is a sin, then it is a sin to him.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 7:32:11 PM
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rebelman
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So in other words, God contradicts Himself. In other words, God is not consistent with His Children. I don't buy it Elad.
That statement that Dave made sounds overly post modern to me and appeals to individualism.
If the Spirit is the same and God in every follower, someone is lying because the Spirit of God does not play a game of what is a "sin to them and not to me".
_____________________________
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2007 9:00:54 PM
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JamesL5
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I agree with rebelman..........The statement that Dave made is contradictory and misleading. We all read the same bible, believe in the same God, and have the same Spirit. So how can anyone say "sin to them and not to me." Absolutely someone is lying................
No one can escape sin..............God sees and knows everything............
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2007 9:03:23 AM
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DaveW
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Rebelman and BlessAmerica: I responded to your posts in the Doctrine thread as this discussion was growing increasingly OT here, being a wider theological problem as opposed to just narrowly addressing masturbation.
http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/fb.aspx?m=2735329
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2007 9:34:56 PM
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High_Hopes
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I agree with guitarmark This entire thread is very unhelpfull and only seems to confuse people more. No ones advise on this can be stated as right or wrong really considering this is not mentioned in the bible at all. And even my comment now is probably not entirely accurate. But we all have our opinions and that is the difference between opinion and fact. Facts never change.
So if you are looking for a solid answer in this thread I would advise you not to take anyones opinions with too much seriousness, but instead pray about it and come to your own conclusion with what information you have obtained.
_____________________________
Why do today, what you can put off until tomorrow :)
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2007 7:52:17 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
I agree with guitarmark This entire thread is very unhelpfull and only seems to confuse people more. No ones advise on this can be stated as right or wrong really considering this is not mentioned in the bible at all.
Actually I think the debate is healthy and helpful. It would seem to me to only be unhelpful if you have a particular point of view that you are not willing to look at and someone says the opposite and that causes confusion.
If you hold to a pro or anti M stance, (or if you have a doctrinal opinion on any other subject) it is good to know WHY you have that stance. What are the statements that support your position and what oppose it? If your position cannot stand up to some opposition, is it really the right position?
And, BTW, M is mentioned in the bible: Song of Solomon chapter 5. You just have to wade thru the poetic euphemisms.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2007 12:15:16 PM
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kljohnson77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
...
And, BTW, M is mentioned in the bible: Song of Solomon chapter 5. You just have to wade thru the poetic euphemisms.
I have not heard that interpretation. What supports your conclusion?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2007 8:28:07 AM
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DaveW
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If you really want to know I can spell it out for you in a pm. It is much to explicit to post in the forum.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2007 1:24:31 AM
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Anst
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quote:
ORIGINAL: High_Hopes
Another point I just wanted to make is the fact that masturbation, for both men and women, Is part of exploring your own body. This is a natrual thing and It would be hard for me to believe that there is anyone who has not at some point in their life explored their body it is only human curiousity and It is the body we are given for life so we may as well know the most about it as possible right?
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarmark
I like what Dr. James Dobson says about it (paraphrasing): "I find it hard to believe that a loving God would put such a burning desire into the hearts of young men and then deny them the right to act upon it."
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OH Wait! Yeah he is! I think you have a point. He must have just not had enough room in the bible to touch on that subject... You know how these things get edited out 
