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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 11:04:55 PM
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divorcingmyself
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I guess I can throw in my two cents worth (at least it builds the posts number ;-)).
1) There is accepted clinical evidence that regular seminal fluid release reduces prostate problems. Contrary to some of the posts here, this is not an urban myth used to justify sin.
2) God created woman to address that aspect of being made in His likeness that requires intimacy. The challenge in our society is to recognize and develop the difference in sex drive and intimacy. They really are not the same thing, just as orgasm and ejaculation are not the same thing.
3) To argue is that masturbation is wrong because of an assumed necessary connection between orgasm and lustful thoughts makes about as much sense as saying that we should not eat because eating is linked to gluttonous thoughts. Think about it, guys. Just as a controlled man can eat without being a glutton (eating is linked by some psych researchers to the same pleasure centers as sexual activity), it is very much possible and some might argue healthy to learn to masturbate without the lust/fantasies.
4) As has been said before (I'm certain without reading every post), the core issues related to masturbation are the mental focus associated for each individual during the activity and how dominant in the person's thinking masturbation is. Anything that takes over our focus on living a Kingdom life and more closely acting and thinking as Christ would have us to do is sin (eating, making money, sports, fame, sex, or wives/girlfriends). The sin is in the thought behind the action and not the action in and of itself (that is what Jesus indicated and Paul taught, just as righteousness is in the thought and not the action itself).
5) In a time when there is increased recognition that the older brothers need to mentor younger brothers in how to treat women in a Christ-like manner, I am beginning to think that we need similar mentoring with regard to sexual behavior, including the idea of masturbation without sinning. And by the way, I do think that even within marriage and with your wife, there can be sinful sexual activity (not talking about positions and techniques but the thoughts that drive the intercourse), and this is desperately needed to be taught within the Body, to both men and women.
Well, so much for my observations from over the years. BTW - it is becoming a trend where significantly more women are becoming addicted to porn, and while female porn is written from a different perspective but is just as addictive.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2008 8:20:43 AM
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DaveW
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While I actually agree with you here, let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask you to address some issues connected to your points. There are many who consider any form of M to be sinful in all situations. That is where their faith is at.quote:
1) There is accepted clinical evidence that regular seminal fluid release reduces prostate problems. Contrary to some of the posts here, this is not an urban myth used to justify sin. Is future health effects, even if real, justification to sin? quote:
3) To argue is that masturbation is wrong because of an assumed necessary connection between orgasm and lustful thoughts makes about as much sense as saying that we should not eat because eating is linked to gluttonous thoughts. Think about it, guys. Just as a controlled man can eat without being a glutton (eating is linked by some psych researchers to the same pleasure centers as sexual activity), it is very much possible and some might argue healthy to learn to masturbate without the lust/fantasies. But ANY sexual feeling, desire or thought is inherently lustful to a single person. We are never told to abstain food for any length of time (40 days at most) in scripture but we are told in many places, both OT and NT to abstain from any sex outside of marriage. If marriage is years or decades away, you have to abstain that long to avoid sinning.quote:
4) As has been said before (I'm certain without reading every post), the core issues related to masturbation are the mental focus associated for each individual during the activity and how dominant in the person's thinking masturbation is. Anything that takes over our focus on living a Kingdom life and more closely acting and thinking as Christ would have us to do is sin (eating, making money, sports, fame, sex, or wives/girlfriends). The sin is in the thought behind the action and not the action in and of itself (that is what Jesus indicated and Paul taught, just as righteousness is in the thought and not the action itself). THis one I actually am going to disagree with you on.
The Mosaic covenant was concerned more with outward behavior than where your mind/heart was at; but not completely: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and strength. (Deut 6) Jesus and Paul both brought out and hilighted the aspects of the OT that dealt with the heart and mind issues. So it is not the case in the New Covenant that we can do whatever as long as our heart and mind are focused on godly things.
Now we have to obey both outwardly and inwardly.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 2:35:34 PM
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acceptingtruth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
You do realize that less than 40% of men are able to have release by a dream? The rest of us have the dream but wake up a few seconds before the "good" part with all the dream's sexy images still firmly in the mind and the body physically balancing on that knife edge....
From personal experience - that is not a good place to be.
interesting statistic; i only had that happen maybe once...can you site the source? i still say that it's not OK if you're married AND your spouse is unaware....
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2008 12:42:48 PM
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DaveW
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Check with Paul Byerly of www.themarriagebed.com for the statistics. He has done a LOT of research.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 7:41:55 PM
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Dan94
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Looks like this thread has been going on a long time, I'm not going to pretend that I have read all 3 years of ideas, theorys and biblical understandings on the subject. I only know 1st hand of one mans experience with this issue and that is mine. Please forgive me if I cover something that someone else has voiced here before.
I was raised in a baptist household, church is among my earliest memories...not often fond memories. Also one of my earliest memories is being caught in the act (at about the age of 4 or 5) of masturbation. Believe me this is the very first time I have EVER told anyone that. I do not have any memory of how I learned to masturbate, but that is not the point I want to make. I remember getting hit several times with a belt by my "Christian" father, without any explanation of why.
I was just a child innocent or not, (only God knows) that had discovered someyhing that felt good, that as far as my memory can go was causing nor promoting harm to anyone. So what were the stripes for? When you intend harm or promote harm or do harm, then yes a punishment is indeed justified. (that's just a personal observation, not a researched fact)
I certainly was not entertaining any sexual thoughts...I did not have any concept of sex at that age. I guess talking about this here is a kind of personal therapy because I have never said this before to anyone.
Being caught and punished did not make me stop, but even at a young age I was smart enough to never get caught again. Pardon me if I jump ahead in time. By the time I reached 15 I was an expert, but when I discovered porn (yes a baptist kid can discover porn in 1970 without the internet) I became a full blown addict and that's my own observation, not a clinical one. I had girlfriends, and went through life in an otherwise normal way. Got married in 1978, have 2 children and now have 2 grandchildren. Got saved in '94 (hence Dan94) and divorced in 95, and that was indirectly related to a porn obsession. That's all another story and I want to stick with the subject matter, even though it is intertwined.
This subject has always been a debatable subject among the saved and unsaved, and of course the the motives and reasons vary greatly. I have prayed, begged, and petitioned God for clear guidence on this very personal matter. I never prayed to find out another mans reason or motives or even clinical interpetations and I have to admit the prostate cancer thing is a new view to me. But what I've been asking Him for is how does the want of this and the act of this affect my relationship with Him?
As of today September 29th, 2008 the answer still has not come as a bolt of lighting or clap of thunder and I still on occasion give myself over to it under strict mental guidelines. No porn, not even a rememberance of something I had witnessed in it. No co-workers, certainly not a sister at church (she is a child of The Lord) and no past memories that consist of sinning against God and finding pleasure in those times. For to ME remembering something in pleasure that grieved the heart of my Saviour, (even something forgiven) is like revisiting a crime scene and taking pleasure in it rather than remorse.
Is this the answer for me?...forever?...Or perhaps another mans answer? If I knew that I would never bother God. Hence I keep my heart an open book, ready to be convicted, delivered or set free if it ever becomes a blockage to a closer walk with Him. I have felt guilty on occasion and changed my thought process in response, but sometimes my guilt is connected to a belt I received while not intending or promoting harm to anyone at the tender age of 4 or 5.
Any ones views are welcomed, and judgements will be considered especially if someone has had a personal face to face conversation with God on this subject and the video to prove it....Only kidding there, sincerely if anyone in brotherly love can add anything I'm more then willing to hear it. Maybe God has dierected me here for that very reason, maybe that is why He has directed any of us here, who am I to question his place or timing if that is the case?
I know that in 2 days I will really only be 14 years old in the Lord. Still a teenager in Gods kingdom and still very teachable in the same. May one of you brothers wish me a happy birthday on the one that really counts.
A brother who's real name is Daniel, Love in Christ always!
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 4:59:03 PM
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acceptingtruth
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Dan,
Thank you for your honesty, and I do pray that God will continue to open your eyes to what really matters, and for your relationship with Him not be hindered by your earthly experience. I grew up in a southern baptist home as well, and in addition to being ordained, my father was also a pilot for the US Marines. Yikes...there's one you don't want to catch you playing with yourself! But, I guess it happens to a lot of us. While he didn't physically punish me, he closed me off, ignored me, and took no interest in any of the things or activities I did. I doubt it had anything to do with the masturbation incident...it could have been that they thought I was gay from such an early age...which indeed was an issue for me growing up, which I continue to seek God's grace over....the point is, we have to give all our motivations and fleshly desires (whether that be physical or mental) to God. He understands that we are human, we are going to fail. He knows our hearts, THANK GOD, and that's what matters most in determining our worth to Him....if we have addictions, He still loves us. If we fail, He still loves us.
I feel that masturbation is a personal issue that could or could not be a sin, depending on the situation. Eating a piece of cake is not a sin for me if there's no gluttony, lust, or transfer of my trust in God to the piece of food. Can someone masturbate without lust? I don't know....all I know is that the enemy wants us to be consumed with anything other than our Savior. If we are consumed with figuring something out, we are making ourselves our own idols. Being human is OK, and giving God the glory is what life is all about.
I pray that everyone's parents could see this and not make such an issue out of masturbation. If it's not seen as forbidden, kids are more than likely going to grow out of it anyway. OK, no more rambling from me.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 6:29:40 PM
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Dan94
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Thank you for your response, your points are well founded and well taken as I said I would keep my heart an open book on this subject. The points you brought up will be part of my prayers tonight as I bow my head to seek His face. Again thank you and may God bless
_____________________________
Born Again into true life on Oct.1,1994
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 1:57:07 AM
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Anst
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A small victory update since as of today I have been successful in remaining masturbation free for 4 whole months!
I have to admit it has been a struggle though, especially in the first 6 to 8 weeks! And in this time I have had about 3 nocturnal emissions and regrettably a couple spontaneous orgasms, which were due to the intensity of my ab workouts that I do four times a week. It was more of a battle on some days when, for instance, in the morning you might wake up with a natural erection or on late hot nights you're wearing next to nothing and you just can't sleep, or especially after having a nocturnal emission accompanied by a sensual dream and those feelings rush through your body and you feel like you need another "hit." Sounds so much like the life of an addict don't you think? But, I soldier on doing my best not to "touch" myself and by the grace of God have been successful thus far.
Also, during this time I have come to the understanding why various churches condone mutual masterbation, but not self-masturbation. It seems that if I were to touch my love and naturally arouse her thereby or she would touch me and excite me in a sexual way that this is considered to be perfectly okay since the focus is on giving pleasure to another not on self (e.g. I'm not touching myself to gratify my own sexual appetite). This has probably been the one major conundrum to overcome for me since at first I was wracking myself trying to explain the apparent contradiction. To me it sounded illogical, not unlike a double standard (If anyone has an alternate explanation or similar experience feel free to share). But, looking at it closer as I have over the past few months I feel it's now cleared up the confusion for me.
Anyway I hope others are having a small measure of success as well in their fight against this debilitating distraction.
_____________________________
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"--Isaiah 8:20
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:20:25 PM
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Steverino
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Thank you for your thoughts. Very interesting.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 8:06:09 PM
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DerWeg
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Well if it's a sin because it's lusting and self-gratification, wouldn't having sex with your spouse just for the sake of sexual pleasure be a sin?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2008 7:10:20 PM
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Kings_Ransom
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I haven't read every post on this topic, so maybe I am retreading here, but quite frankly I am sometimes overwhelmed with lust to the point that I know if I don't go masturbate and banish that feeling I will go online and start looking at porn.
This isn't my wife's fault, and I have had issues in the past with porn that pre-date my marriage and that I thought would go away once I did get married. They didn't, and I worry that there's something wrong with me.
I get these feelings of lust from time to time, not every day and sometimes not for weeks at a time, but then they just overcome me and I have to do something to stop it. Looking at porn just encourages it. Taking care of it through masturbation usually makes it go away.
Is this still wrong? Am I sinning and giving into lust by masturbating?
BTW, my wife knows about this and doesn't have a problem with it, but is very much against me looking at porn.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2008 8:08:54 AM
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DaveW
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If your wife knows and is ok with it and you keep your mind on her (and not the porn images) IMO it is fine.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2008 9:05:20 AM
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pdvc19
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
If your wife knows and is ok with it and you keep your mind on her (and not the porn images) IMO it is fine.
Dave, I couldn't agree with you more. There are plenty of reasons for a husband and wife to enjoy the benefits of masturbation in their relationship, (health may preclude other forms of sexual pleasure, time constraints, disease, etc) and I don't see any basis for how this is a sin.
Can anyone provide scriptural basis for this being a sin?
On a side note, I really dislike one-stop threads as I think it limits discussion among members who arrive at the topic late. I guess the site would get jumbled with too many threads otherwise, but it still seems a tad stifling.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2008 4:52:43 PM
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Kings_Ransom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pdvc19
Can anyone provide scriptural basis for this being a sin?
I really hope nobody responds with the passage regarding Onan. Onan's story actually has nothing to do with masturbation, and is about a man who was told by God to impregnate a woman and instead pulled out prior to the moment of climax, spilling his seed on the ground.
Many people, even outside the Catholic church, take the part about "spilling his seed on the ground" to mean that he was masturbating, and refer to masturbation as the "sin of Onan." They are wrong.
Quite frankly the only time that I would consider masturbation a sin is if it is done to entertain thoughts of lust for someone other than your spouse.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2008 8:37:06 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kings_Ransom
Many people, even outside the Catholic church, take the part about "spilling his seed on the ground" to mean that he was masturbating, and refer to masturbation as the "sin of Onan." They are wrong. That idea goes back well before the catholic church. It seems to have started with the advent of Helenism, the Greek influence into Jewish life that started with Alexander the Great.quote:
Quite frankly the only time that I would consider masturbation a sin is if it is done to entertain thoughts of lust for someone other than your spouse. I pretty much agree with that.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2009 10:37:08 PM
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nuclear_sidewalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kings_Ransom
Quite frankly the only time that I would consider masturbation a sin is if it is done to entertain thoughts of lust for someone other than your spouse.
This, of course, is what makes it such a big deal for we single guys. We have no legitimate outlet for these things yet.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 5:28:15 PM
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KStorm
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quote:
Quite frankly the only time that I would consider masturbation a sin is if it is done to entertain thoughts of lust for someone other than your spouse.
"Whatever is not from faith is sin"...personally speaking, I have "done the deed" w/o lusting after another, and I understand that the big M is supposed to help prostate problems (mine is moderately enlarged, according to my doctor), but I can't bring my behavior to the aforementioned Scripture and say it's okay.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2009 10:34:22 PM
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chrsbrss
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I know of nowhere in the Bible where it speaks of masturbation, (The closest that I know of is Genesis)
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
(Genesis 38:8-9 KJV)
I have felt guilty when I do engage in the activity. Almost like God is looking down and frowning on me engaging in that sort of activity. I truly hate having that feeling. TO ME (and let me emphasize the 'me' part) it is a sin. I wish that I could completely restrain from it, it is something that I do struggle with, but looking back, I see that the Lord working in that area of my life little by little right now.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2009 3:51:01 AM
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Aner
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quote:
Anyway I hope others are having a small measure of success as well in their fight against this debilitating distraction.
Anst,
Thanks for sharing your experience - it sure seems like a lot of work and pain you are going through. I was puzzled why your statement above - why would masturbating be "debilitating"?
The distraction does not seem to be the act of masturbating - the distraction seems to be the way God made us - the filling of the prostate and the hormonal increase over a period of days (for an old guy like me - maybe hours for a teenager). Eventually the experience simply becomes painful no different than if I did not relieve my body of other waste created by natural functioning.
Thanks for your response and my best in wrestling with this issue.
Best,
Aner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/3/2009 3:34:22 PM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
This, of course, is what makes it such a big deal for we single guys. We have no legitimate outlet for these things yet. quote:
I know of nowhere in the Bible where it speaks of masturbation, (The closest that I know of is Genesis)
I have felt guilty when I do engage in the activity. Almost like God is looking down and frowning on me engaging in that sort of activity. I truly hate having that feeling. TO ME (and let me emphasize the 'me' part) it is a sin. I wish that I could completely restrain from it, it is something that I do struggle with, but looking back, I see that the Lord working in that area of my life little by little right now. Yeah. I get that. I would submit that the "looking down and frowning" bit is a product of your own mind.
This is why I believe the anti-M teaching is SOOOO bad. It convinces us that (especially the singles) have no way of relief that is not sinful. We become convinced it is sin and therefore it becomes sin because we lack faith. That leaves us wide open to experience condemnation of the devil (or even from ourselves) and there is no faith in any of that.
Certainly to fill your mind with a lot of porn type images is sinful. No doubt. But the deed can be done by concentrating on sensation instead of mental imagery. IMO that would pass the "looking on a woman to lust after her" standard, and not be sinful.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/2/2009 3:08:33 PM
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GlenEnglish
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I know every man in the world masturbates. There is no doubt to that. I have an issue with the lustful and not lustful masturbation. Either way it is sexual arousal and the reason we ( men ) masturbate is for sexual release, and to do that you have to be "turned on " mentally at some point, so I think it is wrong in the eyes of God because we are giving into our bodies desires instead of trying to relieve our sexual desires in the way he intended. This is a matter I have to pray about frequently. Because like most men I tend to give in more often than I should.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2009 1:36:40 PM
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DaveW
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THe same could be said for eating. You have to think about getting food of some kind. When you are hungry enough, it is difficult to think about anything BUT getting food in your stomach.
It is the same with sex. When those hormones hit a certain level and the prostate is full of fluid, it is difficult to think about anything but emptying the gland and relieving the hormones.
Question: you said:quote:
I think it is wrong in the eyes of God because we are giving into our bodies desires instead of trying to relieve our sexual desires in the way he intended. If you are 14 years old and those desires are driving you crazy, what way is the way "He intended?"
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2009 4:54:58 AM
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yeahright351
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i have done masturbation without lust, but i always ended up eventually doing it with lust! for me then it is sin, not that i don't do it! but i do feel this is a sin or at least something that for me leads me to sin, so for me it's a great temptation at least!
this has gotten me so bad, i need to put a filter on my pc. get into
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/course/course.php
Setting Captives Free The Way of Purity
which has been the only real lasting victory i have had
and i have had programs like this going almost 24/7 on my pc
http://www.johnankerberg.com/TV/ankjasrm-practical-christianity-wmv.html#FWW
The Fight Without / The Fight Within
i know i should be way beyond this, but i'm not, i should be doing my calling , yet this sticks to me, like a bad relative!
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2009 5:30:36 AM
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yeahright351
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i guess i should have used the quote instead of reply 
quote:
ORIGINAL: jf12
Well, this is my two cents. Masterbation can be divided into 2 groups: Lustful masterbation, and masterbation without lust, which IS possible, at least for me. Since lustful masterbation has lust, then it is obviously a sin. Lustless masterbation is a bit more trickier. Some say it defiles and makes unpure of the body, and not something that Jesus would like us to be doing. Others say that since there is no mention of it in the bible it is not a sin, among other arguaments. For me, even if I did masterbate without lust, I still feel a bit iffy, and I do not know why. It could be Gods way of telling me not to do it, or it could not be.
That's my say.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2009 8:13:01 AM
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yeahright351
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your better than me for sure, i can't do that too much without thinking about women bro!
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewChristian1
I like to make sure that everything I do, I would do in front of Jesus, in a physical sense. Now, that does nto include masturbation. Obviously I would not want to be masturbating in front of Jesus. Although He is watching from above, He is not here physically. If I saw Jesus physically when I come to physically pleasure myself (with or without lust) then I would definately stop.
So, would that be a sin or not? I like to think that anything you would not do with Jesus present physically would be a sin. But I am unsure about the issue of masturbation.
quote:
Well, this is my two cents. Masterbation can be divided into 2 groups: Lustful masterbation, and masterbation without lust
That is true. There can be masturbation without lust, and I am one that does, on occasion, masturbate without lustful thoughts. I have been in a group with my church that dealt with this very issue, and every guy there seemed to have been in agreement that you can masturbate without lustful thoughts. Our pastures agree that it is not a sin to masturbate, it is only the thoughts.
God bless.
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